BallReviews
General Category => USBC Tournament => Topic started by: Steven on July 30, 2015, 12:26:09 AM
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After three straight years of being held in Las Vegas, the Senior Masters is currently underway in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Entries went down from 310 last year to 194 this year. I figured participation would take a hit, but not to this level.
Moving forward, I'm guessing the USBC will think twice about scheduling the tournament in midwest outposts. Too much potential revenue is being lost.
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Let's see, where would I rather go on a trip, Green Bay or Vegas --- hmmm?! that was pretty stupid, to say the least! ???
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Off topic slightly: I'm so excited for Vegas in 2017
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Off topic slightly: I'm so excited for Vegas in 2017
Not entirely off topic. I believe the phenomena applies to any large scale USBC tournament. The Open Championship (Nationals) has a hard core following that will follow the tournament to any backwoods pit stop, but bowlers are becoming more discriminate. If they're going to invest significant time and money, they want a destination that offers more than just the bowling. Green Bay is showing that loud and clear.
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Off topic slightly: I'm so excited for Vegas in 2017
Not entirely off topic. I believe the phenomena applies to any large scale USBC tournament. The Open Championship (Nationals) has a hard core following that will follow the tournament to any backwoods pit stop, but bowlers are becoming more discriminate. If they're going to invest significant time and money, they want a destination that offers more than just the bowling. Green Bay is showing that loud and clear.
Agreed.
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I don't know any numbers, but people thought Billings Montana would be a dud but I remember people really liking the trip. I know bowling numbers have been on a big decline for some time now. Is there any general trend with nationals?
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I don't know any numbers, but people thought Billings Montana would be a dud but I remember people really liking the trip. I know bowling numbers have been on a big decline for some time now. Is there any general trend with nationals?
Well, lets fix that:
2002, Billings, Mont., 10,806
2001, Reno, Nev., 16,104
Attendance went down by about 5300 with the move from Reno to Billings. There could have been some economy related factors, but still, that's over a 30% hit. About the same percentage reduction as the Senior Masters move from Las Vegas to Green Bay this year.
I have no doubt that the bowlers who did go to Billings enjoyed it. I personally was planning to go to Green Bay this year but had some other things come up. But at a macro level the numbers don't lie. The USBC is playing a dangerous game by hosting the large tournaments in non-destination locations.
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Thanks, I was too lazy to look it up. :) Since many people did enjoy it, maybe after the fact some people were disappointed for not going, but you are correct - if it doesn't sound like fun the numbers take a serious hit.
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I went to Billings in 2002 and would have rather went to Antarctica. It was beautiful, but there was absolutely nothing to do there. I'm a huge hunter and the most exciting part of the trip was the herd of Elk that walked across our hotels parking lot...should have brought my bow! LOL...Being from the Midwest it will be nice to hit Reno next year after taking time off from the Nationals.
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I don't know any numbers, but people thought Billings Montana would be a dud but I remember people really liking the trip. I know bowling numbers have been on a big decline for some time now. Is there any general trend with nationals?
Well, lets fix that:
2002, Billings, Mont., 10,806
2001, Reno, Nev., 16,104
Attendance went down by about 5300 with the move from Reno to Billings. There could have been some economy related factors, but still, that's over a 30% hit. About the same percentage reduction as the Senior Masters move from Las Vegas to Green Bay this year.
I have no doubt that the bowlers who did go to Billings enjoyed it. I personally was planning to go to Green Bay this year but had some other things come up. But at a macro level the numbers don't lie. The USBC is playing a dangerous game by hosting the large tournaments in non-destination locations.
So with that said, what, on the whole, would define a place as a destination location? Tourist traps? something for the family to do? weather?
I ask, because with the numbers from Vegas, it's obvious that the gambling tourist trap there is what also helped to bring the numbers, as it gave the teammates, spouses, and family something else to do. If that existed elsewhere, shouldn't the numbers be roughly the same (again, with attractions being equal)?
I ask, because I compare Vegas and Reno, to say, Omaha (not because I'm biased to home, as I lived in Vegas). Available venues downtown for the tournament (two of them), 3 casinos across the river, second largest and popular zoo in the country, baseball (in the same minor leagues as Reno, and the CWS), and the same weather Reno would have.
Vegas has gambling, gambling, not much more to do for the kids, and gambling. So one would be a playground for the adults, while the other would have playgrounds for the entire family.
I know it comes down to money and if a city really wants to host it, they would/should put in a bid, but I'm really wondering that if a city has some if not all of the same things Vegas or Reno would have to offer, but isn't a big tourist trap like Orlando, SoCal, or Vegas, what numbers would show up.. Anyone know what the numbers were like in Albuquerque?
And apologies for derailing the thread.
BL.
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So with that said, what, on the whole, would define a place as a destination location? Tourist traps? something for the family to do? weather?
It's going to mean different things to different people, but in general, anything that's a significant draw besides bowling. BTW, you don't have to be into gambling to enjoy Vegas. My wife comes with me to the Vegas tournaments, and we usually take in a show, eat some good food, and enjoy the nightly freak show that is simply walking down different parts of the strip. ;)
BTW, here are the numbers in Albuquerque relative to Reno:
2001, Reno, Nev., 16,104
2000, Albuquerque, N.M., 10,688
Again, the same story as the difference from Billings. The trend is clear. I don't know why the USBC considers locations that are almost guaranteed to result in at least a 30% drop in attendance. It's not like the organization is so flush with cash that money doesn't matter.
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Orlando would be awful, I'm glad that stadium/arena fell through a few years ago. Just too hot & humid (for me at least).
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Steven,
I think your numbers don't tell the whole story. In 2001, Reno was still "exciting". The National Bowling Stadium (NBS) was still a spectacle. It was only the 3rd time ever hosting the tournament. Reno, ever since 1995 when the NBS opened always saw a dramatic increase in entries. Let's look at a better picture:
2009, Las Vegas, Nev., 17,200
2008, Albuquerque, N.M., 12,615
2007, Reno, Nev., 16,235
2006, Corpus Christi, Texas, 12,606
2005, Baton Rouge, La., 13,222
2004, Reno, Nev., 16,585
2003, Knoxville, Tenn., 12,203
2002, Billings, Mont., 10,806
2001, Reno, Nev., 16,104
2000, Albuquerque, N.M., 10,688
1999, Syracuse, N.Y., 9,912
1998, Reno, Nev., 15,925
1997, Huntsville, Ala., 9,480
1996, Salt Lake City, Utah, 9,764
1995, Reno, Nev., 17,285
While I personally enjoyed Billings, played my very first game of Texas Hold 'em there (and got fleeced by the local establishment I believe, lol) I think this picture shows that Billings did stunt the growth slightly that year. Discounting the "Reno effect" (which at this time was a positive unlike the negative version we see now) you see a 7% growth from Syracuse to Albuquerque, but only a 1% growth in Billings. Then we see bigger increases leading up to the huge numbers in Vegas in 2009. I feel this was due to the fact that it was the first time in Vegas in a long time, and it provided people with a destination that offers a wide variety of entertainment options for the first time as well.
The other thing to consider is travel. How much does it cost to go to Vegas versus Billings, versus Green Bay? Many airlines run deals to Vegas where you can find airfare at rock-bottom prices. How many offer specials to Billings, to Green-Bay? My guess would be none. In the example of the USBC Senior Masters here, why would some of the fringe and lower level bowlers spend the extra dollars to fly to Green Bay instead of Vegas. Think about it from the perspective of the guys fighting for the last cash spot...go to Vegas on a cheap flight, bowl, enjoy entertainment even if I don't bowl well or...go to Green Bay, pay for an expensive flight, perception is there is nothing to do other then bowl, so if I bowl bad, not only am I out more money, I won't get to enjoy my time there (whether it's true or not). Now add in the fact that the PBA50 scene at the moment, has many, many of the PBA's greatest players active in it right now....just look at the final 5 from this tournament. Why spend the extra dollars to fly to Green Bay, to have an even smaller chance of doing well then in prior years with all the 50 year old HOF quality bowlers?
I think the USBC needs to look at places where there are many direct flights, where airlines may offer discounted fares, to hold these tournaments. It doesn't have to be Vegas, I am sure there are other cities most of the major airlines offer discounted flight to, and then look to find venues that can host events like this. I think you will still see decline over places like Vegas, but it may not be as severe.
JMHO
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Reno…….. Never hear people when planning vacations talk about going to Reno. USBC is married to it but Vegas is the smarter choice. Most flights to Vegas are also cheaper.
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Jorge,
Your better numbers still tell the same overall story. The cities that are considered to be more in the "destination" category (Vegas, Reno, Baton Rouge) drew more entries. Not always a lot more, but enough not to dismiss the significance. Regardless of your justifications for the 2001 Reno bump, you can't ignore the much lower numbers in Billings the year before and Albuquerque the year after. The clear trend show that location matters.
As far as your analysis of the Senior Masters in Green Bay, the irony is that it was actually much easier to make the cut this year. Even with the year-to-year reduction in entries from 310 to 194, they still took 64 players to match play (and a guaranteed check) in the first cut. I see guys who were usually bottom third donators come close this year. I know a lot of the California Seniors who didn't go, and it had nothing to do with competitive fear. I don't believe the added cost of travel was an overriding factor either. It always came down to Green Bay. You're only bowling a few hours a day. You can only sit around and watch TV for so long. It's a big reason there were 44 California Seniors last year, and only 4 this year.
You can't ignore the desires of the West Coast bowling population and be surprise when participation takes a hit.
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Reno…….. Never hear people when planning vacations talk about going to Reno. USBC is married to it but Vegas is the smarter choice. Most flights to Vegas are also cheaper.
For Reno, you may be better off flying into Sacramento, then renting a car and driving the 130 miles/2hrs to Reno from there. It really isn't a bad drive.
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Reno…….. Never hear people when planning vacations talk about going to Reno. USBC is married to it but Vegas is the smarter choice. Most flights to Vegas are also cheaper.
For Reno, you may be better off flying into Sacramento, then renting a car and driving the 130 miles/2hrs to Reno from there. It really isn't a bad drive.
It really isn't, and this is coming from someone local to Sacramento.
Also you do hear of people wanting to make the trip to S. Lake Tahoe, which Reno serves (only 40 minutes away on a good day). You get the best of both worlds at that point: skiing in the mountains, desert nearby, gambling/party scene. And Reno has really started to clean up its act from being down in the dumps. Gambling took a hit there due to Native American casinos popping up in California, killing the need to head up the hill. But Reno is turning the boat. No, it will never compete with Vegas, but it isn't supposed to.
But if it is too expensive to fly into Reno, definitely fly into SMF. Not a bad drive through gold country, and it sure as hell beats flying into Elko, Ely, Wendover, or Stockton.
BL.
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Reno…….. Never hear people when planning vacations talk about going to Reno. USBC is married to it but Vegas is the smarter choice. Most flights to Vegas are also cheaper.
For Reno, you may be better off flying into Sacramento, then renting a car and driving the 130 miles/2hrs to Reno from there. It really isn't a bad drive.
It really isn't, and this is coming from someone local to Sacramento.
Also you do hear of people wanting to make the trip to S. Lake Tahoe, which Reno serves (only 40 minutes away on a good day). You get the best of both worlds at that point: skiing in the mountains, desert nearby, gambling/party scene. And Reno has really started to clean up its act from being down in the dumps. Gambling took a hit there due to Native American casinos popping up in California, killing the need to head up the hill. But Reno is turning the boat. No, it will never compete with Vegas, but it isn't supposed to.
But if it is too expensive to fly into Reno, definitely fly into SMF. Not a bad drive through gold country, and it sure as hell beats flying into Elko, Ely, Wendover, or Stockton.
BL.
No one in their right mind would fly into Stockton. ;D
Flying into Sacramento would be a viable option or even the Bay area(San Jose, Oakland, San Francisco all have less expensive flight options than Reno). Plenty of things to do in Northern California for a nice vacation.
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The USBC just announced that the 2016 Senior Masters will be held June 19-25 at Sams Town in Las Vegas. This proves that some level of sanity still exists within the USBC. :)
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The USBC just announced that the 2016 Senior Masters will be held June 19-25 at Sams Town in Las Vegas. This proves that some level of sanity still exists within the USBC. :)
Sam's Town? Really? All of the recently opened or completely renovated houses in the city, and they chose the last one that hasn't been touched in 15 years, since the last time the PWBA was there?
Sunset Station I could see as a better venue. Women's tournament would be at South Point that year if I remember right. But Redrock Station, Orleans, and even Gold Coast or Sun Coast would make a better place. Either Sam's Town is hurting for the money, or the other houses were offering way too much that the USBC could afford.
BL.
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As far as 2016, the women have SouthPoint booked up for the month of June. It hasn't been announced yet, but the Senior US Open will probably be hosted by Sun Coast in June. I don't know what constants might exist at other Las Vegas venues.
Still, whatever warts might exist at Sams Town, the tournament will be a draw.
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While visiting San Francisco drove to Reno was nice drive great highway and that was in 1987.
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While visiting San Francisco drove to Reno was nice drive great highway and that was in 1987.
Drinking while posting has been shown by the Surgeon General to be harmful to your health. :)