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Author Topic: All I am going to say is...  (Read 18646 times)

24899

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All I am going to say is...
« on: June 03, 2013, 08:31:03 PM »
Don't be the guy who wrecks the shim... AT PRACTICE.

/end rant.
24899

 

ccrider

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2013, 05:10:33 PM »
To each his own.

TWOHAND834

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2013, 05:12:19 PM »
Usually when I go out there, I make money.  I typically shoot high 1800s to high 1900s.  This year, I went with a team first mentality with a team of decent bowlers; though not Eagle worthy.  I shot 1550.  I am there to make money; not lose money.  Since the reality of winning an Eagle is almost impossible, next year I will be going out with bowlers who are not that good and know nothing about carving lanes or bowlers that are decent enough to play right as long as possible and dont care about me playing 3rd arrow in game 1.  Trust me; its no fun shooting 1550 when the mentality was to shoot 3300+ in team event. 
Steven Vance
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Bowling 300 900

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2013, 05:14:06 PM »
Two handed understands.   You go out there to bowl your best and bowl your own game within the team concept.  The team concept shouldn't be using your bowling ball to manipulate the lanes for desired ball reactions.  This whole tournament has become complete nonsense since the USBC has been designing and promoting oil pattern carving.

It's gotten to the point where everybody thinks you can't bowl well or win if you don't manipulate the lane.  I guess when the USBC promotes doing that you buy into it. 

This cracks me up,  everybody pisses and moans about where people play and how they either take away the shim or blow up the lane in the wrong spots.  When it's suggested that we dial back technology a bit and no longer allow the bowling ball to wreck the pattern so much the bowlers piss and moan that you can't take away their super duper bowling bomb balls.

You can't have it both ways.   You want a more stable and logical game where the lanes don't get wrecked by players than you must change the playing environment. Dumping more and more oil on the lane in cute little designs does nothing but make the players use more surface and stronger balls thus wrecking the lanes and the "shims" on the lanes.   

You want less shim wrecking and logical bowling application than you gotta go to lighter oil patterns and weaker/lower flaring bowling balls.   This will allow many more styles of play to stay in the same general area without the bowling ball morphing the oil pattern.

Until then, piss and moan about the players that don't want to be forced into an area of the lane they don't want to play. 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 06:01:29 PM by Bowling 300 900 »

Impending Doom

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2013, 06:45:53 PM »
Oh, I shimwreck league patterns. not nationals. I don't want to get jumped.

Pat Patterson

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2013, 05:54:49 AM »
Two handed understands.   You go out there to bowl your best and bowl your own game within the team concept.  The team concept shouldn't be using your bowling ball to manipulate the lanes for desired ball reactions.  This whole tournament has become complete nonsense since the USBC has been designing and promoting oil pattern carving.

It's gotten to the point where everybody thinks you can't bowl well or win if you don't manipulate the lane.  I guess when the USBC promotes doing that you buy into it. 

This cracks me up,  everybody pisses and moans about where people play and how they either take away the shim or blow up the lane in the wrong spots.  When it's suggested that we dial back technology a bit and no longer allow the bowling ball to wreck the pattern so much the bowlers piss and moan that you can't take away their super duper bowling bomb balls.

You can't have it both ways.   You want a more stable and logical game where the lanes don't get wrecked by players than you must change the playing environment. Dumping more and more oil on the lane in cute little designs does nothing but make the players use more surface and stronger balls thus wrecking the lanes and the "shims" on the lanes.   

You want less shim wrecking and logical bowling application than you gotta go to lighter oil patterns and weaker/lower flaring bowling balls.   This will allow many more styles of play to stay in the same general area without the bowling ball morphing the oil pattern.

Until then, piss and moan about the players that don't want to be forced into an area of the lane they don't want to play. 

+1
Pat Patterson

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TWOHAND834

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2013, 07:39:00 AM »
Two handed understands.   You go out there to bowl your best and bowl your own game within the team concept.  The team concept shouldn't be using your bowling ball to manipulate the lanes for desired ball reactions.  This whole tournament has become complete nonsense since the USBC has been designing and promoting oil pattern carving.

It's gotten to the point where everybody thinks you can't bowl well or win if you don't manipulate the lane.  I guess when the USBC promotes doing that you buy into it. 

This cracks me up,  everybody pisses and moans about where people play and how they either take away the shim or blow up the lane in the wrong spots.  When it's suggested that we dial back technology a bit and no longer allow the bowling ball to wreck the pattern so much the bowlers piss and moan that you can't take away their super duper bowling bomb balls.

You can't have it both ways.   You want a more stable and logical game where the lanes don't get wrecked by players than you must change the playing environment. Dumping more and more oil on the lane in cute little designs does nothing but make the players use more surface and stronger balls thus wrecking the lanes and the "shims" on the lanes.   

You want less shim wrecking and logical bowling application than you gotta go to lighter oil patterns and weaker/lower flaring bowling balls.   This will allow many more styles of play to stay in the same general area without the bowling ball morphing the oil pattern.

Until then, piss and moan about the players that don't want to be forced into an area of the lane they don't want to play. 

Just to add something else.........this was my worst all events score in the 14 years I have been out there and it by 170 pins.  My lowest was 1720ish in my first time out there.  Here is where I will back up what USBC did this year.  It was where they went with the new Ice oil.  I think people got too caught up in a "Have to get 10 guys to play together all around 6-7-8 in the beginning".  I dont think it is as imperative to do that with this new oil.  I had a couple guys on my pair start around 3rd arrow from the start and by game 3, I was still playing 3rd arrow myself.  I believe that if do need at least half the guys on the pair to stay outside but with this new oil, I dont think all 10 guys have to.  That is what I learned this year.  If the volume or length is there, it is going to be perfectly fine to have a few guys playing their comfort zones as long as they are not using 500 grit coverstocks.  I think if it is at least 2000 or more, you can get away with it moreso than years past with the other oils.  For years, I was getting accustomed to seeing checks in the mailbox every August for $2,000 or more.  Its really going to suck this year when I check the mailbox and see no check at all. 

So with that said....here is what I suggest to all of you.  If you have a team that you feel is VERY worthy of a team to contend for an Eagle or at least place very high in the standings, then by all means go with a 10-guys-carving-the-lane mentality.  If not; then go out there and just have fun and do what you have to do to make some money.  If you are going to blow the $1,000 or more to go out there, the least you could do is try to recoup what you can and maybe even make some profit out there.
Steven Vance
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Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

Strapper_Squared

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2013, 09:56:00 AM »
Quote
Its really going to suck this year when I check the mailbox and see no check at all. 

Welcome to my world!  Vacationing in Reno isn't nearly as fun as say....The Bahamas!
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TDC57

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2013, 02:13:59 PM »
I have to agree that Nationals has become somewhat suspect in the fact that it's all about carving or manipulating the lane to win. Since when did you need another team to come along to help your team win? That sounds ridiculous. So the other team gives up their shot at an eagle so they can share in your team's winnings? That doesn't sound like competition, that sound just plain stupid. There's so much blowhard pissing and moaning on this site about THS scores but manipulating the lanes to make them easier to score at Nationals is ok. That's a head scratcher! I'm with TWOHAND834 and Bowling 300 900 on this one.

Cornerpin

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2013, 02:35:00 PM »
I have to agree that Nationals has become somewhat suspect in the fact that it's all about carving or manipulating the lane to win. Since when did you need another team to come along to help your team win? That sounds ridiculous. So the other team gives up their shot at an eagle so they can share in your team's winnings? That doesn't sound like competition, that sound just plain stupid. There's so much blowhard pissing and moaning on this site about THS scores but manipulating the lanes to make them easier to score at Nationals is ok. That's a head scratcher! I'm with TWOHAND834 and Bowling 300 900 on this one.

+1

Jorge300

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2013, 04:53:07 PM »
What I don't understand is why is everyone acting like this just came along a few years ago. Back in the 50's when there was a special division for "professionals" like Dick Weber, etc. Those teams did the same thing. Was it wrong then? The only difference is today's equipment changes the shot quicker.
 
A team tournament is always about the best score for the team, not the individual. If you guys want to go to the USBC Open to get the most for you, that is selfish. Just stay home and bowl a local singles tournament....then it would be all about you. I see comments in here about how "sad" it is that people work together to win......look up the definition of teamwork. A TEAM event is about working together, that's the whole concept of a team, the whole being greater than the sum of it's parts. Some of you seem to have forgotten that, if you ever really cared about it in the first place.
 
And for those who also may have forgotten, every ball thrown down a lane manipulates the oil. It removes some into the ball or it moves it in some way. So it is better for that to happen in a random pattern that could cause you or others on your team to score worse? Or would it be better/smarter to do it in a known pattern so that everyone can, hopefully, score higher as a group? I think the answer is simple.
 
Now, Twohand has a good point. The new oil is not supposed to break down as quick and that may allow for some people to play deeper than others. But, look at the physics of the game....those throwing inside will burn up a spot where they are throwing.....partially by soaking up oil off the lane, partially by pushing oil down the lane, and partially by pushing oil left/right from where they are throwing. The oil that gets pushed right, could easily have negative consequences for those trying to play right of those people....but apparently that is ok to some of you....as long as you get your scores, the rest of the team be damned, right? I don't like looking into the mailbox and not getting a check either, no one does. But why is it ok for your teammate (you know one of your "friends", someone you like to bowl with, someone who paid the same money as you to go to the USBC Open) to not get check just so you can? Sorry guys, the only thing that shows is how selfish you are.
Jorge300

Nails

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2013, 06:21:32 PM »
Unless a good majority of your 10 bowlers can repeat shots, i.e. average 200+ on a sport shot, you're probably fooling yourself into thinking you're breaking down the lanes in a good way.  You would also have to have a majority of the guys be good at throwing the ball pretty straight to start things off, whether it's through equipment, speed, or release.  In my opinion, unless you have a group of guys who have a legitimate chance at the top 100, you're better off having everyone play in their comfort zone.  Do you (not necessarily you Jorge) only bowl your weekly leagues with guys who break down the shot "correctly"?  It might not help a THS with a huge mound of oil in the middle, but even they can get ugly with today's super covers and mega rev rates.  However, for nationals I would try not to have a 500 rpm spray & pray guy who needs 500 grit to compensate for his 19 mph ball speed on my team....


TDC57

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2013, 08:22:41 PM »
Jorge, you didn't address the fact that teams go to Nationals with a companion team who's job is to help break down the shot for the other team to try and win an eagle. One team is forfeiting their chance at an eagle to share in another's money. That is completely against the grain of what competition is about. Prove that they did this in the 50s. Show an article saying some of the pros worked to help others win. In that day and age it was till dog eat dog and I don't believe for a minute that happened!!! I think you're trying to sell us bullsh*t and call it steak.  This is no different than bowling on a THS and shooting big scores. You're trying have someone else help you make the shot easier. In the case of Nationals it is other bowlers or a team and in league it's the guy programming the machine!!

24899

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2013, 09:21:30 PM »
This will be my last personal post about this topic. I like the discussion we are having here because there are lots of different valid points. I would like to share what we brought to the table, and you can decide for yourself what you'd like to think or learn about our experience.

The team came to Reno with philosophy of a "TEAM" from beginning to end - in all events. A team can be defined by a group of individuals that will act toward reaching a common goal. Each individual has characteristics, both positive and negative, that can affect how the team will reach their goal. Also, each individual will have their own preferences.

After the team was established communication and examination of preferences and style were made. In any group, individuals must put aside personal bias (make sacrifices) for the best interest of the team. We felt that coming into Reno, the team had made it clear (we set a goal/a game plan) on what we thought could lead us to what we would define a successful team outing. We stated our preferences and characteristics and AGREED to a game plan coming into the event.

I will not get into details on who did not follow the plan, where, or when, but at the end of the day, an individual on our team did not trust the plan, and bailed out on us. Basically what we had hoped to NOT happen, had happened, because of we felt we were in control of not wrecking the shim.

More than anything, whether you believe in "Shimwrecking" or playing an individual game, the most important lesson learned on my end is that in any group or team I are a part of, we need to stick to the game plan and commit to it.

If the outcome wasn't favorable as we had thought, AND we executed our plan as precisely as possible, then it is back to the drawing board. I can live with that. Basically it means we made a poor choice and we need to make better ones next time.

The primary source of frustration is we, as a collective team, did not commit and/or precisely execute our game plan.

Moving forward, however, means that each individual of our group will need to improve on the little things - timing, release, and speed control, so we can execute even better next year. Also, it is clear that there are individuals that did not believe in the game plan, and individuals may need to be removed and added to the group to simply move forward. Tough decisions and hurt feelings will are ahead.

Personally, this has been a great learning experience about groups and teams, and I am actually looking forward to developing my own game, and being part of a group that would like to move forward, improve, and "make a number."

I bid all of the best of luck in Reno.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 09:25:31 PM by 24899 »
24899

Nails

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2013, 06:22:01 AM »
Well, that's different.  You guys had an agreement on how you would attack the lanes and then someone changed their mind.  It does suck when you go in with an plan and a purpose and someone gets cold feet.

TDC57 - usually the companion team that goes with the Eagle hunters is pretty sharp also.  They are also helping their chances of scoring big over the long haul.  Again, they have to know what they're doing in order to help the other team.  They aren't just throwing charcoal outside of the first team just to help their shot.

Some sport patterns do open up if people work together to break them down properly.  I'm not crazy about the practice when done to excess though.  Like when the PBA guys get an hour to torch the TV pair before the finals.  The pattern never plays as it was intended, and when broken down wrong, make the lanes borderline unplayable.

TDC57

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Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2013, 10:54:54 AM »
Nails, I understand the companion team has to be good also to incorporate the plan, but you never see stories how they were the ones who scored higher. They are just there to help the others, which sound ridiculous and does not seem to fit the idea of competing in the event to win it.

I also find it a little hard to believe one guy unless throwing a ball that was so sanded it looked fuzzy white could wreck the lanes for the other bowlers. Sounds like a little whining taking place over someone else wanting to actually compete instead of just being "a little helper".
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 10:59:19 AM by TDC57 »