win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: All I am going to say is...  (Read 18610 times)

24899

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 11
All I am going to say is...
« on: June 03, 2013, 08:31:03 PM »
Don't be the guy who wrecks the shim... AT PRACTICE.

/end rant.
24899

 

spmcgivern

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2079
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2013, 11:29:10 AM »
I wonder if people would think differently if there were no brackets?  How would bowlers feel if the brackets were based on the events being bowled (i.e. team brackets, doubles brackets and singles brackets)?

Jorge300

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6407
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2013, 01:30:38 PM »
TDC57,
    You see it as "forfeiting" a chance at an Eagle. That is your problem. I have seen numerous times where the "B" team will beat the supposed "A" team. Look back through some of the archives webcasts, there are at least 2-3 examples of it right there. The companion team is there to score well and do the best they can. They may not have the same level of experience or skill as the "A" team, but they aren't a classified team either. By breaking the lanes down in a consistent pattern, they are helping their chances of getting the most money back they can.
 
As far as my comment in the past. I did not say they had 10 people doing it, I said the better teams all played in the same area and broke the lanes down together. Some of that is due to the lane surface and balls that were available in those times, some of it was because they were very good bowlers and knew that breaking lanes down in a consistent manner was the right approach for scoring well. If you want to call it BS, that's your opinion, you'd be wrong but you are welcome to it.
 
Isn't the whole idea of bowling to score your best? The way to score your best is when you have the most room to make mistakes. That's why 99.9% of bowlers score higher on a THS than on a Sport Pattern. Are you making the shot easier by working together as a team, hopefully. But if you have an incorrect gameplan, you could make the shot harder. Again, I fail to see why people are complaining/whining about a TEAM working together. If this was football, and you were the QB, would you want every offensive lineman to just do what they wanted? TDC57 isn't very good at pass blocking, so he is going to run block on every play, Nails isn't good at run blocking so he is going to pass block on every play. Twohand isn't very good at blocking at all, so he is going to cut block on every play, etc. Do you think you would win many football games like this? So why is it frowned upon in bowling a TEAM event. And again, anyone who puts their own scores ahead of the TEAM scores is being selfish.
Jorge300

TDC57

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1268
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2013, 01:59:43 PM »
Jorge, I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I think very few "B" teams have done better than the "A" teams. I think going to help a team possibly win instead of going all out to help yourself is stupidly ridiculous and goes against the idea of competition that used to be the Nationals. I don't think people are whining about teams that work together, this thread was about a person whining about the opposite.

Let's see breaking down the lanes to make them yield highers scores for the higher average bowlers in the tournament is ok, but a lane man putting out a shot that yields higher score for almost everyone is not. That's a head scratcher!

Bowling is an individual sport in a team setting, let's never forget that and if your paying a sh*t load of money to travel to the putrid site called Reno, then why in hell shouldn't an individual have the right to think about him or herself first. That's not selfishness it's just intelligent thinking. Again I don't believe one guy unless he's throwing a 180 grit sanded ball is destroying anything for the whole group. For crying out loud, these guys have to throw spare balls and that changes the lanes too!

I used to laugh (before they started oiling every shift) when I heard some of the bowling elitists at Nationals pissing and moaning about having to follow some hackers who bowled on their lanes before them. It was the hackers who were providing a large part of the prize fund. I thought elitists wanted tougher conditions. Geez!

This isn't a team sport like football, and using your logic you would be asking your opponent to help you win. Being a Packer fan, I don't see the Vikings helping them win anything. Those ten guys all playing the same spot on the lane you comment about? That's because in the old days most everyone played in the same area. There were very few guys who round-housed the lane. Most were down and in players and the lanes broke down because of that, not because they knew it would yield higher scores.

Like I said I just respectfully disagree!!

Nails

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1703
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2013, 02:47:03 PM »
Jorge, I think the problem might be that some seem to think if you don't force/make all 10 bowlers work as 1 team to break down the lanes properly, then they are all a bunch of selfish idiots.  No one should be complaining that two team's work together.  Also no one should complain that 10 people are doing their own thing.  Don't forget that a huge percentage of all bowlers are pretty much once a week house hacks.  They don't know about this tactic and wouldn't have any idea on how to do it properly.  If you have a team or teams that want to do this, fine, but don't look down on those who don't.  Well, except maybe the OP's team mate since they all decided to work together then 1 changed his mind.  A great many bowlers have limitations in their game.  You can't suddenly make them talented disciplined bowlers for 2 days.

Jorge300

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6407
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2013, 03:33:48 PM »
Nails,
     I didn't make it clear in my posts, but I am not saying everyone has to do this. I don't expect the classified teams to come in and do this. My posts were directed, at first, to Bowling 300 900 who said "I don't care what the team is doing, I am going to do my own thing" and basically said he is just out for himself. THAT is selfish. Obviously, if the team doesn't have a plan, then one can't do something different than the rest of the team. But if the team put together what they feel is a good plan on how to work together, it is selfish for one bowler, or a few bowlers, to deviate from that plan just to score better themselves, especially at the detriment to the other members of the team. That is what I had an issue with.
 
I posted this in another thread where this came up. If bowler A can play inside and shoot 700, but that causes issues for the rest of his team and results in them throwing 575 each, you get a team score of (575*4 +700) 3000, even. But if Bowler A plays along with the team plan, he may only shoot 650, but the rest of the team shoots 600 now, you now get a team score of (600*4 + 650) 3050. The team rolls better overall and Bowler A gets a bigger check. And 650 should not significantly reduce his bracket winnings so overall Bowler A gets back more money by sticking with the plan and helping his teammate bowl better. This logic is what some fail to understand.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 05:04:11 PM by Jorge300 »
Jorge300

TDC57

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1268
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2013, 04:23:39 PM »
Then the point is actually, Nationals is really about everyone working together and this no longer being an individual sport in a team setting. That this is now a different type of competition where only the good bowlers will score because they have made the lanes easier by using the tactic described. This being totally different than making the lanes easier by the lane man using a tactic to allow everyone to score better.

Jorge300

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6407
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2013, 05:12:59 PM »
TDC57,
    I assume you bowl in leagues. I also assume for the most part they are leagues full of teams. How much money do you make for your individual awards in your leagues versus what the team gets at the end of the year? I bet you make more by your team doing well versus just you doing well. Bowling has always had a team element to it. Unless you are bowling in a Singles league, bowling is about the team. Depending on how your league rules are set out, there are many different ways to get points/wins. Sometimes it is just based on the team total score, sometimes it is based on you beating the person on the other team and something additional for team total score, etc. In either case, every pin you get can effect a win or a loss. I can't count the number of times I bowled a bad game, and lost my individual point, but I continued to try my best and got a strike or strikes in the 10th frame that helped our team win total. I threw a line that may not have been my preferred line and got the pins I needed to help the team. The same concept is what is going on at Nationals. You may want to believe this is an individual sport, but most leagues say otherwise.
Jorge300

Bowling 300 900

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2013, 09:24:18 PM »
This Jorge guy is an internet bowling hack.  He has been for quite some time now. 

And your right Jorge, I will play where I want to play.  The rest of the knives can play where they want to and play there little pattern manipulation game.

This whole idea of pattern manipulation is a joke and makes a farce of the sport.   It's about supreme shot making on a tough condition.   It's not about getting you and your 9 buddies to dry up a spot on the lane so you can have mistake room. 

It's not the best shot maker wins,  it's the best pattern manipulators who win and that is a lousy way to determine a winner of an event. 

Why come up with an oil pattern that is supposed to test your shot making skill when you can manipulate it to eliminate the need for supreme shot making.

Just put the damn THS out and let people bowl.  If the USBC is going to promote and teach lane carving than why don't they just save everyone the trouble and design the lane pattern to have the carved areas already dry for the bowlers to start out.

Let's stop with the dog and pony show and just either get rid of the balls that change the patterns or just make the patterns already pre carved and ready to go.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 09:40:38 PM by Bowling 300 900 »

TDC57

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1268
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2013, 10:04:38 PM »
Jorge,

I agree with every word you posted until the last two sentences. I didn't say it was an individual sport. I said an individual sport in a team setting. There is a huge difference between what you said about league bowling and carving the shot at Nationals. I bowl in a league where individual points are included with team points and in no way does losing your individual point and still competing for the team even come close to the joke the USBC has become. Helping an opponent and that what team B is at Nationals, an opponent, seems ludicrous, just to get a share of team A's winnings. It means helping another team is more important than the money your team paid to compete. You are not COMPETING under those circumstances.

I will stick to my view that this manipulation of the lane in order to make the lanes more scorable makes a mockery of the bloviation that bowling elitists set forth about the THS. Either way somebody is doing something to make the lanes easier to shoot high scores!

TDC57

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1268
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2013, 10:06:22 PM »
Bowling 300 900,

You're pretty much spot on!

trushj

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 23
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2013, 12:35:28 AM »
I don't get it. why are we arguing? some say the easy THS is ruining the sport, and we should make the day-in and day-out shot more challenging, yet around 12,000 people make the trek out to nationals to compete on a sport compliant pattern.

yet we get a sport compliant pattern we can all compete on, and now there's more complaining? apparently there's no satisfying bowlers.

there's always going to be the one or two guys in any group at any tournament who wrecks the hold, or "blows up" the middle. I'm guilty of complaining about this myself. but at the same time, maybe I should have made better shots and kept up with the transition.

the only option I see to fix the "team plan" problem that's being discussed at nationals is to prohibit the USBC from releasing the pattern to the public. this takes away the option to have the pattern put down at home centers and would prevent teams from developing a game plan. once the lights go on, it would turn into an every man for himself scenario.

is there a quick fix in this day and age with Internet forums? with YouTube? I don't know. but what I do know is that as a whole we should accept it, throw decent shots and accept what comes.

BobOhio

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2013, 06:02:52 AM »
I very much like the idea of NOT releasing the pattern.
BobOhio
GO BUCKS

spmcgivern

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2079
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2013, 07:05:28 AM »
Unfortunately, if you don't release the pattern you give the advantage to the few who know the pattern.  Doubt you can keep it a secret from everyone.  Plus, with the internet and forums like this, the pattern would be figured out in just a couple of weeks anyway.

Another thing, just because the shot can be manipulated doesn't mean it is easy to do so.  It doesn't mean it is a guarantee.  Can it make the shot easier, sure, but at least there is some thought that goes into it as oppose to the blind chunking of a THS.

And when one says having the B team help carve the shot for the A team isn't being competitive, should these teams throw plastic to make it worse?  Are we now condoning the opposite if somehow working together for everyone's sake is wrong?  Even though regionals are singles events, you still get some dirty looks when someone is just winging the ball out there with no regard to the shot.

TWOHAND834

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3880
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2013, 08:28:54 AM »
I very much like the idea of NOT releasing the pattern.


This isnt going to matter.  Let me fill everyone on a little secret for those that seem to think the lanes play so very different.  If you pull the ball, its going to hook and if you push the ball outside, you are lucky to hit the head pin.  USBC will never put out a 35 foot pattern nor will they put out a 45 foot pattern.  Its always going to be in the 38-42 foot range and always going to be flatter than a house shot.  Even the oil volume doesnt change that much from year to year.  When have we ever seen the middle of the lane play extremely tight on the fresh and the gutter hook a bunch???  Its always the opposite. 

In regards to carving lanes........you can only do so much in 10 minutes of practice.  Whether you carve the lanes or not, the only teams that are going to contend for an Eagle are people who bowl for a living, are on ball staffs, or are former PBA guys that can split boards.  In regards to team event, for those not PBA or bowl for a living, you may get a person here and there that will pop off a 700 set; but not all 5 guys to make a run at an Eagle.  Look at the standings every year and you will rarely see some random named team up there.  Usually, it is a team with a ball company or some manufacturer in the name (Linds Lakers, Team USA #(insert any number), Turbo 2n1, etc..). 

Lets just face the reality here.  90% of us have no chance at an Eagle in the Team Event and most likely wont get an Eagle in Minors unless we get fortunate and pop off an 800 in Singles.  My best team was Knoxville where we finished in the top 15 and we played all over the place.  Couple guys played in the track the whole time and the other 3 of us played 3rd arrow and moved deeper from there.  We had 3 strokers, 1 tweener, and myself.  So just go out there and have fun with the Nationals and bring home what you can.
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

storm making it rain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
Re: All I am going to say is...
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2013, 12:52:24 PM »
I think Riggs stated that their game plan would have worked better if they had a wider array of bowlers.  Even Janawicz's team had players playing largely different angles.  I think the important part is to be close at the break point.

Our team(s) who have no realistic shot at winning, had 6 bowlers commited to banging up the 5-8 board area in practice with 2000 grit stuff.  And it did help open things up a little giving some miss room right.  I don't see anything wrong teams working together to "carve" up a pattern.  "Most" of the teams that work together score well, some teams for example Riggs' team had a solid game plan, but even he said they created a tougher shot by using said gameplan.