BallReviews
General Category => USBC Tournament => Topic started by: 24899 on June 03, 2013, 08:31:03 PM
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Don't be the guy who wrecks the shim... AT PRACTICE.
/end rant.
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Hahahahaha I love the term 'shimwrecker'
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Dare I ask what the bleep you guys are talking about?
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Dare I ask what the bleep you guys are talking about?
Only references I can find for lane pattern shim is here:
http://www.bowlersedge.biz/seoul.html (http://www.bowlersedge.biz/seoul.html)
http://www.bowlersedge.biz/ths.html (http://www.bowlersedge.biz/ths.html)
Edited to add:
From the THS article:
Remember, the secret is to find the "shim". What is the "shim"? The shim is the portion of the lane pattern that allows you to "pull" the shot a couple of boards and still hit the pocket.
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I shimwreck. Do you?
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Don't you get 10 minutes for 10 people? How can one person destroy the hold in 2-3 shots?
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Not getting into specifics. Whether it is Team event or SD, your guys bowl together as a group.
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I shimwreck. Do you?
Never in Team/DS type events usually.
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I bowl where I find the best ball reaction. I could care less what everybody else wants.
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Bowling 300 900,
With kind of philosphy, you will never contend for an Eagle, that's for sure. Plus, you will have 9 very pissed teammates that probably won't ask you back next year.
Good for you!! [/sarcasm off]
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I don't play carve the lane and I could care less about winning an eagle. If my team wins we win, if we don't we don't. We don't play tricks with the lane pattern.
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I agree with 24899 that working together as a team is key in both Team and Minors. I know many don't believe in this process but i can tell you it does work.
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Bowling 300 900,
Since when is working together as a team "playing tricks"? With this lousy of an attitude, I'm surprised anyone at all would even want you on their team.
Plus your statement of "...I could care less about winning an Eagle" is one of the dumbest I have ever heard. I may never win an Eagle, or even have a very good chance of doing it, but it is still a goal I have every year I go to the USBC Open. Why not just stay home if that isn't your goal, and besides with your selfish attitude others would be better off with you not there anyway.
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Sorry Jorge, when your name somehow gets on my birth certificate than I will listen to what you have to say. Until then, blah blah blah blah blah.
I don't believe in pattern carving or any of that mumbo jumbo they do. If I wreck your shim tough sh$t!
Now just because you heard somebody talk about wrecking the shim, we gotta run to ball reviews and make a post about how somebody wrecked their lane condition blah blah blah.
Let's get real here
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Bowling 300 900,
With that kind of an attitude, I bet your coaches love you, "You don't know what you are talking about...blah blah blah". I see why you don't care about an Eagle, you must suck at this sport since you won't listen to anyone but yourself. I can just see you on league night....washout after washout, open after open...your teammate says "if you move 5 boards you will have great shot".....your response " Leave me alone, I'm not listening to you...blah blah blah" and you continue to shoot 400. ROFLMAO.....you are a tool and a half. Have fun being a idiot, cause that is the best you will ever do in life with this attitude.
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To each his own.
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Usually when I go out there, I make money. I typically shoot high 1800s to high 1900s. This year, I went with a team first mentality with a team of decent bowlers; though not Eagle worthy. I shot 1550. I am there to make money; not lose money. Since the reality of winning an Eagle is almost impossible, next year I will be going out with bowlers who are not that good and know nothing about carving lanes or bowlers that are decent enough to play right as long as possible and dont care about me playing 3rd arrow in game 1. Trust me; its no fun shooting 1550 when the mentality was to shoot 3300+ in team event.
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Two handed understands. You go out there to bowl your best and bowl your own game within the team concept. The team concept shouldn't be using your bowling ball to manipulate the lanes for desired ball reactions. This whole tournament has become complete nonsense since the USBC has been designing and promoting oil pattern carving.
It's gotten to the point where everybody thinks you can't bowl well or win if you don't manipulate the lane. I guess when the USBC promotes doing that you buy into it.
This cracks me up, everybody pisses and moans about where people play and how they either take away the shim or blow up the lane in the wrong spots. When it's suggested that we dial back technology a bit and no longer allow the bowling ball to wreck the pattern so much the bowlers piss and moan that you can't take away their super duper bowling bomb balls.
You can't have it both ways. You want a more stable and logical game where the lanes don't get wrecked by players than you must change the playing environment. Dumping more and more oil on the lane in cute little designs does nothing but make the players use more surface and stronger balls thus wrecking the lanes and the "shims" on the lanes.
You want less shim wrecking and logical bowling application than you gotta go to lighter oil patterns and weaker/lower flaring bowling balls. This will allow many more styles of play to stay in the same general area without the bowling ball morphing the oil pattern.
Until then, piss and moan about the players that don't want to be forced into an area of the lane they don't want to play.
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Oh, I shimwreck league patterns. not nationals. I don't want to get jumped.
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Two handed understands. You go out there to bowl your best and bowl your own game within the team concept. The team concept shouldn't be using your bowling ball to manipulate the lanes for desired ball reactions. This whole tournament has become complete nonsense since the USBC has been designing and promoting oil pattern carving.
It's gotten to the point where everybody thinks you can't bowl well or win if you don't manipulate the lane. I guess when the USBC promotes doing that you buy into it.
This cracks me up, everybody pisses and moans about where people play and how they either take away the shim or blow up the lane in the wrong spots. When it's suggested that we dial back technology a bit and no longer allow the bowling ball to wreck the pattern so much the bowlers piss and moan that you can't take away their super duper bowling bomb balls.
You can't have it both ways. You want a more stable and logical game where the lanes don't get wrecked by players than you must change the playing environment. Dumping more and more oil on the lane in cute little designs does nothing but make the players use more surface and stronger balls thus wrecking the lanes and the "shims" on the lanes.
You want less shim wrecking and logical bowling application than you gotta go to lighter oil patterns and weaker/lower flaring bowling balls. This will allow many more styles of play to stay in the same general area without the bowling ball morphing the oil pattern.
Until then, piss and moan about the players that don't want to be forced into an area of the lane they don't want to play.
+1
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Two handed understands. You go out there to bowl your best and bowl your own game within the team concept. The team concept shouldn't be using your bowling ball to manipulate the lanes for desired ball reactions. This whole tournament has become complete nonsense since the USBC has been designing and promoting oil pattern carving.
It's gotten to the point where everybody thinks you can't bowl well or win if you don't manipulate the lane. I guess when the USBC promotes doing that you buy into it.
This cracks me up, everybody pisses and moans about where people play and how they either take away the shim or blow up the lane in the wrong spots. When it's suggested that we dial back technology a bit and no longer allow the bowling ball to wreck the pattern so much the bowlers piss and moan that you can't take away their super duper bowling bomb balls.
You can't have it both ways. You want a more stable and logical game where the lanes don't get wrecked by players than you must change the playing environment. Dumping more and more oil on the lane in cute little designs does nothing but make the players use more surface and stronger balls thus wrecking the lanes and the "shims" on the lanes.
You want less shim wrecking and logical bowling application than you gotta go to lighter oil patterns and weaker/lower flaring bowling balls. This will allow many more styles of play to stay in the same general area without the bowling ball morphing the oil pattern.
Until then, piss and moan about the players that don't want to be forced into an area of the lane they don't want to play.
Just to add something else.........this was my worst all events score in the 14 years I have been out there and it by 170 pins. My lowest was 1720ish in my first time out there. Here is where I will back up what USBC did this year. It was where they went with the new Ice oil. I think people got too caught up in a "Have to get 10 guys to play together all around 6-7-8 in the beginning". I dont think it is as imperative to do that with this new oil. I had a couple guys on my pair start around 3rd arrow from the start and by game 3, I was still playing 3rd arrow myself. I believe that if do need at least half the guys on the pair to stay outside but with this new oil, I dont think all 10 guys have to. That is what I learned this year. If the volume or length is there, it is going to be perfectly fine to have a few guys playing their comfort zones as long as they are not using 500 grit coverstocks. I think if it is at least 2000 or more, you can get away with it moreso than years past with the other oils. For years, I was getting accustomed to seeing checks in the mailbox every August for $2,000 or more. Its really going to suck this year when I check the mailbox and see no check at all.
So with that said....here is what I suggest to all of you. If you have a team that you feel is VERY worthy of a team to contend for an Eagle or at least place very high in the standings, then by all means go with a 10-guys-carving-the-lane mentality. If not; then go out there and just have fun and do what you have to do to make some money. If you are going to blow the $1,000 or more to go out there, the least you could do is try to recoup what you can and maybe even make some profit out there.
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Its really going to suck this year when I check the mailbox and see no check at all.
Welcome to my world! Vacationing in Reno isn't nearly as fun as say....The Bahamas!
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I have to agree that Nationals has become somewhat suspect in the fact that it's all about carving or manipulating the lane to win. Since when did you need another team to come along to help your team win? That sounds ridiculous. So the other team gives up their shot at an eagle so they can share in your team's winnings? That doesn't sound like competition, that sound just plain stupid. There's so much blowhard pissing and moaning on this site about THS scores but manipulating the lanes to make them easier to score at Nationals is ok. That's a head scratcher! I'm with TWOHAND834 and Bowling 300 900 on this one.
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I have to agree that Nationals has become somewhat suspect in the fact that it's all about carving or manipulating the lane to win. Since when did you need another team to come along to help your team win? That sounds ridiculous. So the other team gives up their shot at an eagle so they can share in your team's winnings? That doesn't sound like competition, that sound just plain stupid. There's so much blowhard pissing and moaning on this site about THS scores but manipulating the lanes to make them easier to score at Nationals is ok. That's a head scratcher! I'm with TWOHAND834 and Bowling 300 900 on this one.
+1
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What I don't understand is why is everyone acting like this just came along a few years ago. Back in the 50's when there was a special division for "professionals" like Dick Weber, etc. Those teams did the same thing. Was it wrong then? The only difference is today's equipment changes the shot quicker.
A team tournament is always about the best score for the team, not the individual. If you guys want to go to the USBC Open to get the most for you, that is selfish. Just stay home and bowl a local singles tournament....then it would be all about you. I see comments in here about how "sad" it is that people work together to win......look up the definition of teamwork. A TEAM event is about working together, that's the whole concept of a team, the whole being greater than the sum of it's parts. Some of you seem to have forgotten that, if you ever really cared about it in the first place.
And for those who also may have forgotten, every ball thrown down a lane manipulates the oil. It removes some into the ball or it moves it in some way. So it is better for that to happen in a random pattern that could cause you or others on your team to score worse? Or would it be better/smarter to do it in a known pattern so that everyone can, hopefully, score higher as a group? I think the answer is simple.
Now, Twohand has a good point. The new oil is not supposed to break down as quick and that may allow for some people to play deeper than others. But, look at the physics of the game....those throwing inside will burn up a spot where they are throwing.....partially by soaking up oil off the lane, partially by pushing oil down the lane, and partially by pushing oil left/right from where they are throwing. The oil that gets pushed right, could easily have negative consequences for those trying to play right of those people....but apparently that is ok to some of you....as long as you get your scores, the rest of the team be damned, right? I don't like looking into the mailbox and not getting a check either, no one does. But why is it ok for your teammate (you know one of your "friends", someone you like to bowl with, someone who paid the same money as you to go to the USBC Open) to not get check just so you can? Sorry guys, the only thing that shows is how selfish you are.
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Unless a good majority of your 10 bowlers can repeat shots, i.e. average 200+ on a sport shot, you're probably fooling yourself into thinking you're breaking down the lanes in a good way. You would also have to have a majority of the guys be good at throwing the ball pretty straight to start things off, whether it's through equipment, speed, or release. In my opinion, unless you have a group of guys who have a legitimate chance at the top 100, you're better off having everyone play in their comfort zone. Do you (not necessarily you Jorge) only bowl your weekly leagues with guys who break down the shot "correctly"? It might not help a THS with a huge mound of oil in the middle, but even they can get ugly with today's super covers and mega rev rates. However, for nationals I would try not to have a 500 rpm spray & pray guy who needs 500 grit to compensate for his 19 mph ball speed on my team....
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Jorge, you didn't address the fact that teams go to Nationals with a companion team who's job is to help break down the shot for the other team to try and win an eagle. One team is forfeiting their chance at an eagle to share in another's money. That is completely against the grain of what competition is about. Prove that they did this in the 50s. Show an article saying some of the pros worked to help others win. In that day and age it was till dog eat dog and I don't believe for a minute that happened!!! I think you're trying to sell us bullsh*t and call it steak. This is no different than bowling on a THS and shooting big scores. You're trying have someone else help you make the shot easier. In the case of Nationals it is other bowlers or a team and in league it's the guy programming the machine!!
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This will be my last personal post about this topic. I like the discussion we are having here because there are lots of different valid points. I would like to share what we brought to the table, and you can decide for yourself what you'd like to think or learn about our experience.
The team came to Reno with philosophy of a "TEAM" from beginning to end - in all events. A team can be defined by a group of individuals that will act toward reaching a common goal. Each individual has characteristics, both positive and negative, that can affect how the team will reach their goal. Also, each individual will have their own preferences.
After the team was established communication and examination of preferences and style were made. In any group, individuals must put aside personal bias (make sacrifices) for the best interest of the team. We felt that coming into Reno, the team had made it clear (we set a goal/a game plan) on what we thought could lead us to what we would define a successful team outing. We stated our preferences and characteristics and AGREED to a game plan coming into the event.
I will not get into details on who did not follow the plan, where, or when, but at the end of the day, an individual on our team did not trust the plan, and bailed out on us. Basically what we had hoped to NOT happen, had happened, because of we felt we were in control of not wrecking the shim.
More than anything, whether you believe in "Shimwrecking" or playing an individual game, the most important lesson learned on my end is that in any group or team I are a part of, we need to stick to the game plan and commit to it.
If the outcome wasn't favorable as we had thought, AND we executed our plan as precisely as possible, then it is back to the drawing board. I can live with that. Basically it means we made a poor choice and we need to make better ones next time.
The primary source of frustration is we, as a collective team, did not commit and/or precisely execute our game plan.
Moving forward, however, means that each individual of our group will need to improve on the little things - timing, release, and speed control, so we can execute even better next year. Also, it is clear that there are individuals that did not believe in the game plan, and individuals may need to be removed and added to the group to simply move forward. Tough decisions and hurt feelings will are ahead.
Personally, this has been a great learning experience about groups and teams, and I am actually looking forward to developing my own game, and being part of a group that would like to move forward, improve, and "make a number."
I bid all of the best of luck in Reno.
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Well, that's different. You guys had an agreement on how you would attack the lanes and then someone changed their mind. It does suck when you go in with an plan and a purpose and someone gets cold feet.
TDC57 - usually the companion team that goes with the Eagle hunters is pretty sharp also. They are also helping their chances of scoring big over the long haul. Again, they have to know what they're doing in order to help the other team. They aren't just throwing charcoal outside of the first team just to help their shot.
Some sport patterns do open up if people work together to break them down properly. I'm not crazy about the practice when done to excess though. Like when the PBA guys get an hour to torch the TV pair before the finals. The pattern never plays as it was intended, and when broken down wrong, make the lanes borderline unplayable.
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Nails, I understand the companion team has to be good also to incorporate the plan, but you never see stories how they were the ones who scored higher. They are just there to help the others, which sound ridiculous and does not seem to fit the idea of competing in the event to win it.
I also find it a little hard to believe one guy unless throwing a ball that was so sanded it looked fuzzy white could wreck the lanes for the other bowlers. Sounds like a little whining taking place over someone else wanting to actually compete instead of just being "a little helper".
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I wonder if people would think differently if there were no brackets? How would bowlers feel if the brackets were based on the events being bowled (i.e. team brackets, doubles brackets and singles brackets)?
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TDC57,
You see it as "forfeiting" a chance at an Eagle. That is your problem. I have seen numerous times where the "B" team will beat the supposed "A" team. Look back through some of the archives webcasts, there are at least 2-3 examples of it right there. The companion team is there to score well and do the best they can. They may not have the same level of experience or skill as the "A" team, but they aren't a classified team either. By breaking the lanes down in a consistent pattern, they are helping their chances of getting the most money back they can.
As far as my comment in the past. I did not say they had 10 people doing it, I said the better teams all played in the same area and broke the lanes down together. Some of that is due to the lane surface and balls that were available in those times, some of it was because they were very good bowlers and knew that breaking lanes down in a consistent manner was the right approach for scoring well. If you want to call it BS, that's your opinion, you'd be wrong but you are welcome to it.
Isn't the whole idea of bowling to score your best? The way to score your best is when you have the most room to make mistakes. That's why 99.9% of bowlers score higher on a THS than on a Sport Pattern. Are you making the shot easier by working together as a team, hopefully. But if you have an incorrect gameplan, you could make the shot harder. Again, I fail to see why people are complaining/whining about a TEAM working together. If this was football, and you were the QB, would you want every offensive lineman to just do what they wanted? TDC57 isn't very good at pass blocking, so he is going to run block on every play, Nails isn't good at run blocking so he is going to pass block on every play. Twohand isn't very good at blocking at all, so he is going to cut block on every play, etc. Do you think you would win many football games like this? So why is it frowned upon in bowling a TEAM event. And again, anyone who puts their own scores ahead of the TEAM scores is being selfish.
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Jorge, I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I think very few "B" teams have done better than the "A" teams. I think going to help a team possibly win instead of going all out to help yourself is stupidly ridiculous and goes against the idea of competition that used to be the Nationals. I don't think people are whining about teams that work together, this thread was about a person whining about the opposite.
Let's see breaking down the lanes to make them yield highers scores for the higher average bowlers in the tournament is ok, but a lane man putting out a shot that yields higher score for almost everyone is not. That's a head scratcher!
Bowling is an individual sport in a team setting, let's never forget that and if your paying a sh*t load of money to travel to the putrid site called Reno, then why in hell shouldn't an individual have the right to think about him or herself first. That's not selfishness it's just intelligent thinking. Again I don't believe one guy unless he's throwing a 180 grit sanded ball is destroying anything for the whole group. For crying out loud, these guys have to throw spare balls and that changes the lanes too!
I used to laugh (before they started oiling every shift) when I heard some of the bowling elitists at Nationals pissing and moaning about having to follow some hackers who bowled on their lanes before them. It was the hackers who were providing a large part of the prize fund. I thought elitists wanted tougher conditions. Geez!
This isn't a team sport like football, and using your logic you would be asking your opponent to help you win. Being a Packer fan, I don't see the Vikings helping them win anything. Those ten guys all playing the same spot on the lane you comment about? That's because in the old days most everyone played in the same area. There were very few guys who round-housed the lane. Most were down and in players and the lanes broke down because of that, not because they knew it would yield higher scores.
Like I said I just respectfully disagree!!
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Jorge, I think the problem might be that some seem to think if you don't force/make all 10 bowlers work as 1 team to break down the lanes properly, then they are all a bunch of selfish idiots. No one should be complaining that two team's work together. Also no one should complain that 10 people are doing their own thing. Don't forget that a huge percentage of all bowlers are pretty much once a week house hacks. They don't know about this tactic and wouldn't have any idea on how to do it properly. If you have a team or teams that want to do this, fine, but don't look down on those who don't. Well, except maybe the OP's team mate since they all decided to work together then 1 changed his mind. A great many bowlers have limitations in their game. You can't suddenly make them talented disciplined bowlers for 2 days.
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Nails,
I didn't make it clear in my posts, but I am not saying everyone has to do this. I don't expect the classified teams to come in and do this. My posts were directed, at first, to Bowling 300 900 who said "I don't care what the team is doing, I am going to do my own thing" and basically said he is just out for himself. THAT is selfish. Obviously, if the team doesn't have a plan, then one can't do something different than the rest of the team. But if the team put together what they feel is a good plan on how to work together, it is selfish for one bowler, or a few bowlers, to deviate from that plan just to score better themselves, especially at the detriment to the other members of the team. That is what I had an issue with.
I posted this in another thread where this came up. If bowler A can play inside and shoot 700, but that causes issues for the rest of his team and results in them throwing 575 each, you get a team score of (575*4 +700) 3000, even. But if Bowler A plays along with the team plan, he may only shoot 650, but the rest of the team shoots 600 now, you now get a team score of (600*4 + 650) 3050. The team rolls better overall and Bowler A gets a bigger check. And 650 should not significantly reduce his bracket winnings so overall Bowler A gets back more money by sticking with the plan and helping his teammate bowl better. This logic is what some fail to understand.
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Then the point is actually, Nationals is really about everyone working together and this no longer being an individual sport in a team setting. That this is now a different type of competition where only the good bowlers will score because they have made the lanes easier by using the tactic described. This being totally different than making the lanes easier by the lane man using a tactic to allow everyone to score better.
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TDC57,
I assume you bowl in leagues. I also assume for the most part they are leagues full of teams. How much money do you make for your individual awards in your leagues versus what the team gets at the end of the year? I bet you make more by your team doing well versus just you doing well. Bowling has always had a team element to it. Unless you are bowling in a Singles league, bowling is about the team. Depending on how your league rules are set out, there are many different ways to get points/wins. Sometimes it is just based on the team total score, sometimes it is based on you beating the person on the other team and something additional for team total score, etc. In either case, every pin you get can effect a win or a loss. I can't count the number of times I bowled a bad game, and lost my individual point, but I continued to try my best and got a strike or strikes in the 10th frame that helped our team win total. I threw a line that may not have been my preferred line and got the pins I needed to help the team. The same concept is what is going on at Nationals. You may want to believe this is an individual sport, but most leagues say otherwise.
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This Jorge guy is an internet bowling hack. He has been for quite some time now.
And your right Jorge, I will play where I want to play. The rest of the knives can play where they want to and play there little pattern manipulation game.
This whole idea of pattern manipulation is a joke and makes a farce of the sport. It's about supreme shot making on a tough condition. It's not about getting you and your 9 buddies to dry up a spot on the lane so you can have mistake room.
It's not the best shot maker wins, it's the best pattern manipulators who win and that is a lousy way to determine a winner of an event.
Why come up with an oil pattern that is supposed to test your shot making skill when you can manipulate it to eliminate the need for supreme shot making.
Just put the damn THS out and let people bowl. If the USBC is going to promote and teach lane carving than why don't they just save everyone the trouble and design the lane pattern to have the carved areas already dry for the bowlers to start out.
Let's stop with the dog and pony show and just either get rid of the balls that change the patterns or just make the patterns already pre carved and ready to go.
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Jorge,
I agree with every word you posted until the last two sentences. I didn't say it was an individual sport. I said an individual sport in a team setting. There is a huge difference between what you said about league bowling and carving the shot at Nationals. I bowl in a league where individual points are included with team points and in no way does losing your individual point and still competing for the team even come close to the joke the USBC has become. Helping an opponent and that what team B is at Nationals, an opponent, seems ludicrous, just to get a share of team A's winnings. It means helping another team is more important than the money your team paid to compete. You are not COMPETING under those circumstances.
I will stick to my view that this manipulation of the lane in order to make the lanes more scorable makes a mockery of the bloviation that bowling elitists set forth about the THS. Either way somebody is doing something to make the lanes easier to shoot high scores!
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Bowling 300 900,
You're pretty much spot on!
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I don't get it. why are we arguing? some say the easy THS is ruining the sport, and we should make the day-in and day-out shot more challenging, yet around 12,000 people make the trek out to nationals to compete on a sport compliant pattern.
yet we get a sport compliant pattern we can all compete on, and now there's more complaining? apparently there's no satisfying bowlers.
there's always going to be the one or two guys in any group at any tournament who wrecks the hold, or "blows up" the middle. I'm guilty of complaining about this myself. but at the same time, maybe I should have made better shots and kept up with the transition.
the only option I see to fix the "team plan" problem that's being discussed at nationals is to prohibit the USBC from releasing the pattern to the public. this takes away the option to have the pattern put down at home centers and would prevent teams from developing a game plan. once the lights go on, it would turn into an every man for himself scenario.
is there a quick fix in this day and age with Internet forums? with YouTube? I don't know. but what I do know is that as a whole we should accept it, throw decent shots and accept what comes.
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I very much like the idea of NOT releasing the pattern.
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Unfortunately, if you don't release the pattern you give the advantage to the few who know the pattern. Doubt you can keep it a secret from everyone. Plus, with the internet and forums like this, the pattern would be figured out in just a couple of weeks anyway.
Another thing, just because the shot can be manipulated doesn't mean it is easy to do so. It doesn't mean it is a guarantee. Can it make the shot easier, sure, but at least there is some thought that goes into it as oppose to the blind chunking of a THS.
And when one says having the B team help carve the shot for the A team isn't being competitive, should these teams throw plastic to make it worse? Are we now condoning the opposite if somehow working together for everyone's sake is wrong? Even though regionals are singles events, you still get some dirty looks when someone is just winging the ball out there with no regard to the shot.
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I very much like the idea of NOT releasing the pattern.
This isnt going to matter. Let me fill everyone on a little secret for those that seem to think the lanes play so very different. If you pull the ball, its going to hook and if you push the ball outside, you are lucky to hit the head pin. USBC will never put out a 35 foot pattern nor will they put out a 45 foot pattern. Its always going to be in the 38-42 foot range and always going to be flatter than a house shot. Even the oil volume doesnt change that much from year to year. When have we ever seen the middle of the lane play extremely tight on the fresh and the gutter hook a bunch??? Its always the opposite.
In regards to carving lanes........you can only do so much in 10 minutes of practice. Whether you carve the lanes or not, the only teams that are going to contend for an Eagle are people who bowl for a living, are on ball staffs, or are former PBA guys that can split boards. In regards to team event, for those not PBA or bowl for a living, you may get a person here and there that will pop off a 700 set; but not all 5 guys to make a run at an Eagle. Look at the standings every year and you will rarely see some random named team up there. Usually, it is a team with a ball company or some manufacturer in the name (Linds Lakers, Team USA #(insert any number), Turbo 2n1, etc..).
Lets just face the reality here. 90% of us have no chance at an Eagle in the Team Event and most likely wont get an Eagle in Minors unless we get fortunate and pop off an 800 in Singles. My best team was Knoxville where we finished in the top 15 and we played all over the place. Couple guys played in the track the whole time and the other 3 of us played 3rd arrow and moved deeper from there. We had 3 strokers, 1 tweener, and myself. So just go out there and have fun with the Nationals and bring home what you can.
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I think Riggs stated that their game plan would have worked better if they had a wider array of bowlers. Even Janawicz's team had players playing largely different angles. I think the important part is to be close at the break point.
Our team(s) who have no realistic shot at winning, had 6 bowlers commited to banging up the 5-8 board area in practice with 2000 grit stuff. And it did help open things up a little giving some miss room right. I don't see anything wrong teams working together to "carve" up a pattern. "Most" of the teams that work together score well, some teams for example Riggs' team had a solid game plan, but even he said they created a tougher shot by using said gameplan.
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spermgiver,
You missed the whole point completely. Team B throwing plastic balls? Quit being thick headed! Team B is not competing for an eagle when they are there to mainly help carve a pattern for team A who takes their shot at an eagle. In return team B will share in any prize money that team A wins. Sound like competing? As I said before that's like one NFL team asking the another to lay down to help them make the playoffs. That was the point! Everyone knows that only the top bowlers or staff guys or former pros are going to win. That's not the discussion. And, storm making it rain, nice try but carving the pattern and making it tougher just doesn't happen that often. This entire thread was about someone whining about one person fu**ing the shim up in practice. For god sakes that's almost impossible. Sounds more like an sniveler just pissed a guy decided the plan wasn't for him and his money spent on such a trip was his money to bowl for. Completely his right!
It still comes down to trying to make the Nationals shot a walled shot to score easier on and that's no damn different than a THS. Try as hard as you elitists might to say it is, it's not. That is what you're trying to do.
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I am going to touch on a couple of points here:
First, you have to release the pattern. If not, only a select few will know it as it will leak out. By releasing it, it makes it fair for all since everyone can see it. This is a must, and as I read in Riggs blog they are going to try and do it even sooner in the future hopefully.
Second, Bowling 300 900, what makes me a "hack"? The fact that I am an above average THS bowler with over 25 300 games and 14 800 series, or the fact that I can bowl well on a Sports Pattern, losing only to a National Team Member and Storm Staffer in my league? Or is it the fact that I called you out for being the selfish POS that you really are? You act like only you paid money to go to Nationals and bowl. Your teammates paid the same money you did, maybe more if they aren't from the same area as you. They have the right to try and bowl good too, without someone making a difficult shot even harder by playing a different line then them. In my last post I showed how someone can make a small sacrifice and play along with their teammates and make out better in the end than they would by going it alone, but apparently math is too hard for you to understand. Feel free to continue to be a selfish POS, and when no one wants you to bowl Nationals with them anymore, you can look back at this thread and know why.
Third, TDC57, when you bowl do you purposely try to make the lanes harder??? What teams are doing is trying put up the best possible score they can, which the last time I checked was the object of bowling. In these cases they are using a game plan to help them accomplish this instead of relying on pure luck. It takes skill to understand the oil pattern well enough to know where to play to make this work. Even the best teams, at times, have errors in game planning. If you read Riggs' blogs there were years where his team (all great bowlers mind you) have made mistakes in where they broke down the lanes, making the shot more difficult rather than easier. They felt that was the case this year as they made the shot too wet/dry and hindered their chances at posting the best score possible. I'll ask you the same thing I asked Bowling 300 900, what makes the guy who moved in and caused the issue money better then the other teammates money? They paid their money too, in the hopes that everyone would stick to the plan and give the TEAM the best chance to score well. It's their right to be upset at the guy who may have cost them money by not doing what they agreed to.
Lastly, If you are bowling on a sports pattern, there isn't going to be 10 different ways to get to the pocket, like there might be on a THS pattern. There will 1,2 and maybe 3 if you are lucky. Everyone will be playing in the same area....this will change the pattern. Again you can do so randomly, or you can do so in a controled manner. Every shot thrown down the lane changes the pattern, whether it is a "soaker" resin ball or a plastic ball. That is just physics. So everyone "carves" the lane. It happened in the 1950's, and it happens today. It just happens much faster with today's modern balls. So why is frowned upon by some that teams work together to try to control how the lanes breakdown? Is it because you can't do it? There will only be a handful of teams that realistically have a chance at the Eagle. But there are years, like last year, where we see a team expand that list, bowl a great set with a great plan and win. Maybe next year it's one of our teams (and in our I mean the people commenting here in this thread) that add our names to the list. But I promise it won't happen if you have people not following a plan.
With all that being said, the new Ice oil may change team's thinking and game plans. As Twohand mentioned, Riggs team thought that maybe having people with more diverse rev rates would have helped smooth out the wet/dry transition. It may be that the game plans turn into having people playing a variety of lines within a certain area, and having everyone move in and/or ball down together. Only time will tell as we see what seems to work and what doesn't.
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spermgiver,
You missed the whole point completely. Team B throwing plastic balls? Quit being thick headed! Team B is not competing for an eagle when they are there to mainly help carve a pattern for team A who takes their shot at an eagle. In return team B will share in any prize money that team A wins. Sound like competing? As I said before that's like one NFL team asking the another to lay down to help them make the playoffs. That was the point! Everyone knows that only the top bowlers or staff guys or former pros are going to win. That's not the discussion. And, storm making it rain, nice try but carving the pattern and making it tougher just doesn't happen that often. This entire thread was about someone whining about one person fu**ing the shim up in practice. For god sakes that's almost impossible. Sounds more like an sniveler just pissed a guy decided the plan wasn't for him and his money spent on such a trip was his money to bowl for. Completely his right!
It still comes down to trying to make the Nationals shot a walled shot to score easier on and that's no damn different than a THS. Try as hard as you elitists might to say it is, it's not. That is what you're trying to do.
No, I do understand. My comment was intended to show how stupid it is for people to somehow say having Team B help Team A is a bad thing. If the bowlers for Team B have issues with helping Team A win, then they shouldn't bowl. But if I was on a set of two teams who were working together to develop the shot to become high scoring, then I'll sign up. Honestly, this entire discussion is whiny.
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Jorge you bowl pretty well on the internet. Nice job listing your accomplishments.
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Bowling 300 900,
I bowl well pretty much everywhere, and I'm not a selfish POS, so that's two things I got over you. Shall we continue?!?
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You are the poster boy for FIGJAM. Should I continue?
I'm not going to continue this FIGJAM contest with you. Good day.
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Bowling 300 900,
I bowl well pretty much everywhere, and I'm not a selfish POS, so that's two things I got over you. Shall we continue?!?
Not to jump into the argument, but I think all would be made clear if it is okay to share the USBC membership number. If anything, all of the credentials would be up on the bowl.com site, and I don't think any personal info outside of the bowler's name is available. As two sayings go,
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Facts are pesky little things.
If the stats stand, they will be posted there, and someone will look like a major fool for doubting them.
BL.
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Stats don't mean anything. We don't get paid on stats in this sport. You can average 250 and that doesn't mean anything. His resume means diddly squat, as my own bowling resume means diddly squat.
He can spout off all the numbers he wants, that doesn't legitimize his point of view nor does bowling league statistics legitimize my own point of view.
He has his point of view that people support and I have my point of view that people support and at the end of the day that's how life is. Two points of view at each end of the spectrum.
Whatever your bowling statistical history is doesn't factor into this.
I shouldn't of called him a "hack" but he has no right to call me a "POS" either.
End of this nonsense.
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Stats don't mean anything. We don't get paid on stats in this sport. You can average 250 and that doesn't mean anything. His resume means diddly squat, as my own bowling resume means diddly squat.
He can spout off all the numbers he wants, that doesn't legitimize his point of view nor does bowling league statistics legitimize my own point of view.
He has his point of view that people support and I have my point of view that people support and at the end of the day that's how life is. Two points of view at each end of the spectrum.
Whatever your bowling statistical history is doesn't factor into this.
I shouldn't of called him a "hack" but he has no right to call me a "POS" either.
End of this nonsense.
then perhaps you should have thought before you posted, been the better man, and taken the high road. But you didn't, and it showed.
But also in the same light, you attacked his credibility and results he has as a bowler without knowing if what he has done gives him clout or standing to back up what he is saying.
You say stats don't mean anything, yet someone who goes after another person here who is on staff immediately gets smacked down because that person is on staff. You can't have that both ways.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Jorge300's stats are legit (no reason to doubt them until otherwise proven), and I'll bow out there. But really take a look at yourselves, especially with the "he said/she said" crap. It speaks volumes about a person.
BL.
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So because he has alot of league stats on paper that makes it ok for his opinion to over ride mine and it makes it ok for him to start the verbal attack on my opinion.
So what if he is on a "staff" what does that prove.
Not once did I post my own personal bowling stats in the thread because they are meaningless to the post, and yes even if you have alot of stats that doesn't mean your still not a "hack".
I don't have to use stats to back my opinion and it is simply my opinion. I stated my opinion and then he started the attack on me.
If you read the thread, I stated my opinion about how I feel about the whole situation and then he started on his rant about me. It was very civil until he called me an idiot and a few other things.
I stand behind what I believe in and what I have posted on how I feel about this thread.
His opinion is also valid in my book and worthy of discussion. But if your going to call me an idiot or whatever than I'm going to call you a hack, if you call me an clown, I'm going to call you a donk, etc.
That's good enough for me.
It's an internet message board. You people take this way to seriously. I come here, read a few posts, make a few posts, buy a few balls and go on my way. If your going to get all worked up over a few posts about bowling than you need some other kind of outlet to find relaxation and happiness. People are right, people are wrong, people post about what they believe in right or wrong and at the end of the day its a bowling message board. You know what I say to this right now...WHO CARES.
It's a bright and sunny day outside. I'm going outside to enjoy life and not worry about BR.
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Let me say this:
My stats that I posted are 100% legitimate, and whether you believe or not doesn't bother me one bit. I know that what I have done on a THS is nothing special, but I also know I am not some "hack" as I have been called. I am very confident in my abilities and where I fall within the sport.
Bowling 300 900, I started this by calling you selfish....which to me you are. You only care about yourself at Nationals, you said so in your posts. You act like the other 4 or 9 members of your team (not knowing whether you go with 1 or 2 teams) paid they same money you did, or more if they come from a different area then you. Why shouldn't they be able to get a return on their money too? Why should they get less back because you decide you won't follow a game plan? The POS came from your replies to that and your flippant responses. I want one good reason why you should be allowed to go out and possibly create a situation where your teammates will score worse, just so you can score better? If you can give one reason, other than a selfish one, I will apologize for what I said. If not, then I am accurate in my assessment.
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I'm not going to be forced to play in a part of the lane that I either don't want to play or I am not comfortable playing just because there is a notion that all 10 guys have to play the lanes in the same zone.
Now if I have a good look in another zone and the other 9 guys play the way they are taught what I'm doing will have very little effect on their ability to score.
I feel its much better for bowlers to play to their strengths than ask them to play a weakness and put them in a position where they are very uncomfortable.
It's obvious in this thread that the team had a plan, One of the bowlers felt very uncomfortable with it and chose to play to his strength which would appear to be further inside than the rest of the team.
I'm not going to complain about that. They guy wasn't comfortable or just felt he had a better chance to score in.
Do I like playing out, sure...do I like playing in sure...but I felt that I had the "nut" in and could put up a better score than I'm playing in. One bowler isn't going to change the landscape of the lane so bad that the players can't get a read on it.
It takes 10 guys to change the lane but we bitch about 1 guy who changed his mind and tried something else. That does not add up if it takes 10 guys to carve, how can 1 guy eliminate a shim by playing in the shim area.
In my opinion they made an improper team choice with that one bowler. They purposely made the lanes good for themselves but didn't factor in that this one guy really didn't have what the other guys had on the lane and when he tried to make the lanes better for his game he gets ridiculed for it. It was ok for the rest of the team to manipulate the lane but not ok for him to find an area that he was comfortable with.
We as bowlers hear and see things from other bowlers and then get all worked up over it when in reality it has no bearing on the success or failure. You hear this all the time, an accomplished bowler will talk about how some body played this way or that way and then all of the league bowlers will automatically start saying the same things because they heard it but have no idea what the accomplished bowler is talking about.
In this instance I call BS on the title of the thread and the thread itself.
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Bowling 300 900,
What you fail to realize is this happens, more then you like to admit. This year may be the start of something new with the Ice oil and it may not be as big a deal anymore. But I know first hand what 1 or 2 bowlers moving in can do to a game plan. We had that happen last year at Baton Rouge. We set-up to play the lanes a certain way and got buy-in. In practice, a couple of bowlers moved in deeper cause it was more their A game. We started out having a very nice shot after practice, but by the middle of the 1st game, shots there were hitting the pocket we all of a sudden coming in light, like 2-10 light. Most of thought it was us (the bowler) making a bad shot. But by the beginning of game 2, shots there were strikes at the beginning of game 1 were leaving washouts. The people playing inside pushed the oil right with their shots and destroyed the line we were trying to play. The rest of us tried to move inside, which isn't our A games to try to correct this. We found exactly what most people found inside, you had little to no miss room in either direction. The equipment we had was designed for smooth rolls for playing farther out where we game planned for and it didn't make the corner hard enough inside and we saw our carry percentage drop significantly. It can and does happen.
It takes 10 people to make the lanes into something you want, but it doesn't many to alter that and make things difficult for others. Every shot moves the oil around the lane or removes it from the lane. Last year I took a lesson from Bill Hall at the Showcase lanes, one of the things he did was take you down to the far end of the lanes to get a close look at what the oil looked like after our session. One bowler, throwing for less then an hour (can't say how much less as we stopped to review video at times and for him to give advice) can have a dramtic effect on the oil pattern on the lane. I was even surprised at how easily you could see the ball track, the oil removed and moved around on the lanes. You may not think you have any effect on the others by you moving in, but you do. All it takes is for a little bit oil to get pushed right, especially at the end of the patten, to take what were strikes and turn them into washouts and light splits.
I also disagree that they made an improper choice. This bowler should have been able to put aside personal preferences for the good of the team. As they get through game 1 into game 2 (at least in past years), you begin to move left into this bowlers comfort zone. So this bowler would only be giving up at most perhaps one game of not throwing their preferred shot. Plus when they do move in to their "A" game the lanes have transitioned in a predictable pattern giving this person miss room right to help them score even better, while helping the entire team score better. Only if this person truly can't see the benifits to both his and his teammates score and wallet by following the plan, then maybe at that point it is time to remove them from the team. They are just too selfish to be useful to any team. This is the situation you will find yourself in, I suspect, based on your posts.
I again offer the challenge to you, provide me with one valid reason, that doesn't involve you scoring better at the expense of your teammates, as to why it is ok to leave them behind and move inside. If done, then I will formally apologize for what I called you, otherwise you prove I am correct in my assessment.
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I've stated how I feel and what I feel is acceptable when bowling team events.
I'm done with your horse play. Internet bowling is not my life. Please have a good day.
I'm a POS and you are the worlds best internet bowlier. Cheers!
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Bowling 300 900,
All I did was point out the serious flaws in your thinking. You are incorrect in your assessment that you playing inside of others has no effect on them. I showed you the example Bill Hall showed me, and my personal experience with it. I also threw you an olive branch where I offered to fully apologize to you for what I said if you could show me a fault in my logic. Your response is to run and hide?!?
So I guess you are partially correct in your last statement. I am by far not the world's best internet bowler, there are FIGJAMS everyday from those people. I am also not the best bowler in real life. As I stated earlier, all I am is an above average house bowler and good bowler overall. So it is easy to see which part of your last statement is true.
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I already told you how I feel about the situation and what is acceptable and not acceptable with team play. I don't need to type it over and over again. Its right there in front of you to read. It doesn't correspond to your own opinion and so be it. That is fine with me. We disagree and that is ok.
This whole USBC tournament is a joke as it is and until they bring pure shot making back and eliminate the bowling balls that morph the pattern this is nothing but a smoke and mirror attempt at creating a "sport".
If a pattern gets so morphed beyond recognition that people can't bowl where they want to bowl on the lane within reason than this whole entire game is a joke and not a sport. When the own governing body suggests and promotes taking your bowling ball and creating mistake room there is something seriously wrong with this game. This is not a sport when the governing body teaches and promotes ways to make the lanes "easier" and those who don't fall into line with doing that are ridiculed by their own team for doing so.
If this is the game you guys want to play, have at it. It's not a sport and it sure isn't a test of bowling ability when its so blatantly promoted on how you can make the lanes "easier" with your very own bowling ball in PRACTICE, not even actual score play.
Come on now, when the powers that be promote bringing a ball that your not even going to use in scoring play to manipulate the lanes there is a serious problem. Practice should never be about changing the oil pattern to suit your needs. That is horse play. Just bring a ball with a bunch of surface that your not going to use for score and trash the pattern that was designed to be a challenge. Let's design oil patterns that are a challenge than then promote ways that people can morph the lanes with their bowling ball in practice so this challenge is now easier.
Why even design test of skill oil patterns when the coaching and promotion is ways to make lanes easier.
Just give the ALL the bowlers the already morphed areas of the lane pre practice and lets bowl.
I appreciate your "olive branch" but I'm not going to play this game where I have to prove you wrong for you to apologize. There is no apology needed because this is a bowling message board to share ideas and opinions.
The last point I'm going to make is once the lanes morph and they didn't morph the way you wanted them to, everybody has an excuse or is mad at this bowler or that bowler. Once shot making comes into play nobody knows what to do. If it's not drawn up on paper with graphics or game plans everybody is lost. It's sad that the emphasis is on how to make the lanes easier so your shot making doesn't have to be perfect and it's sad that bowlers can get pissed off at other bowlers for trying their best with their best way to knock down pins but because they didn't follow the play book they get ridiculed.
The worst thing that ever happened to this sport was the lanes got easy and everybody got "good". The shot making went out the window and the adjustments went bye bye. We all have become victims of this and we expect way too much scoring by pattern manipulation and strength of bowling ball.
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Bowling 300 900,
So since you are all about shot-making, I can safely assume you play far away from everyone else on THS, correct? If most people are playing up 5, you play 20 so that shot-making is key right? You wouldn't want to make it easy on yourself right. If you bowl on a short Sport pattern or the Cheetah PBA pattern, you play 20 instead of playing that "easy" area outside like everyone else, correct? Or should I just call you a hypocrite now?
This is partially opinions, but it is also part facts. It's those facts which you fail to acknowledge. I've never said you had to agree with or accept that team bowling at the USBC Open Championships requires actual teamwork. Even though that has been the case for over 50 years. But you can't dispute the facts that very ball you throw inside of others effects them. I showed a personal first-hand account of what I saw. I showed you what one of the best coaches in the sport showed me, how much damage one person can do to the oil pattern. These are not opinions, these are stone-cold facts. Non-acceptance of these means one of two things, 1) you are not capable of understanding them, i.e. you are stupid (which I don't think is the case, or 2) you are ignoring them on purpose because they blow your ideals out of the water. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, for now.
Bowling is a sport that combines good uses of the mind and the body. The body has to be able to physically repeat the process of making a bowling ball roll down the lane correctly. While the mind does 2 things, one is interpret what it is seeing the ball do on the lane and react accordingly to help better achieve the result of the ball entering the pocket. The second happens prior to bowling, which is interpreting the data presented of the shot you will be bowling on devise the correct way to attack the pattern. So if 10 people are smart enough to come up with a plan to attack the pattern the same way, according to you, that isn't what bowling is about? C'mon Man! And since you seem to not understand the process, most people don't recommend bringing a ball out in practice that you aren't going to use, something super sanded. It makes the pattern more difficult by exaggerating the wet/dry line. The idea is to use your equipment to play together break the lanes down systematically, instead of random. Again, please explain why this is a bad thing? We heard over and over that you think "this is a joke" and how "this isn't bowling, isn't the sport" but you have not once said why. Why is it bad for a team to use teamwork?
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So if Ray Bluth, Dick Weber, Pat Patterson, Don Carter and Tom Hennessey bowled today in 2013 and let's say Ray Bluth wanted to not play the same area of the lane that the rest wanted to and made a move inside do you think the rest of the gang would of been irate and ridiculed him for making a move?
Team bowling isn't carving out lanes in PRACTICE. Team bowling isn't purposely changing the playing surface to suit your own needs. Team bowling is cheering on your team, helping your team get lined up in the areas of the lane they want to play, talking about how the lanes change. Team bowling is not purposely as a team trying to change the playing conditions to make them easier during the practice time with balls that are only to be used to morph the lanes. It's a complete sham if you allow teams to use balls designed to change the lanes and then they put them in their bag never to see the light of day again. That's not team bowling.
I would like to see those 5 bowlers above, the greatest team bowlers of all time argue with themselves about who wrecked the lanes for who and so on and so forth.
The only time bowlers bitch about others ruining the shot is when they feel that somebody inferior to their own talent level has done something to hurt their own conditions. If the guy who moved inside and wrecked the shim was a 30 time PBA champion there would not of been a peep out of the teammates about shim wrecking.
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300 900,
I couldn't agree with you more. These so-called team bowlers are trying to create an easier lane pattern, like bowling on a THS, the shot they abhor. I just don't see how this is different. And Bluth, Weber, Carter and the boys never did such a thing. If what you and I have said isn't true, where are all the Nationals bowlers coming to Jorge's side to defend his point. It's about making the lane easier like a THS and they just can't admit it or it would go against all the railing about house shots that goes on here.
I must add Jorge seems like a good guy and is a knowledgeable bowler, but in this case he is mistaken about what is now the norm for the big boys at Nationals.
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TDC57,
I am not trying to deny anything. It is exactly about trying to make the shot better for the team to score better. My point has always been that this is about the TEAM, not 1 individual bowler. You have to do what's best for the team to put up the best score possible. I'll pose the same thing to you I do to bowling 300 900, who never answers any questions: do you purposely play the lanes (whether THS or Sport Pattern) differently then the pattern dictates? Would you play 20-15 on Cheetah or would you play outside like it is meant to play? If you play outside, why do you do that? Because it give you the best chance to put up the best score possible. Thisis the same thing, only in this case it isn't just you, it's about everyone doing that. And the way to do that is to systematically break down the lane in order to make it easier to score better. You still have to make the shots, you still have to hit your target time after time...this isn't diminishing the skill it takes or the shot-making. Everyone, at least everyone that I have ever known, who bowls trys to find the spot on the lane that allows them to miss right a little, and miss left a little and still strike. On THS, that little could be 5 boards each way. On a Sport Pattern, it may only be 1 board. But you look for that area. With the volume of oil at Nationals, the pattern will change drastically from the first shot throw to the last (at least in the past), and you can have that change happen at random, by having people play all over the lanes, and turn the shot into something unscorable by even the best bowlers (and if you think I am making this up, look through Riggs blog where he discusses the Minors events some years after following teams that didn't have a plan, it is also one of the reasons they went to fresh oil for Minors this year), or you can have that happen in a known pattern that allows you to score your best. Why would you choose the first one?
As far as defenders, there have been some in this topic, who probably left after 3 pages of this. I am stubborn though so I am still here :) . Also, the defense is in the proof. Look at the teams that score well, that make the top 10 and look at their interviews on bowl.com. They all talk about "following the plan". Now, granted, these are incredible bowlers, much better then I am. But if these great bowlers think this is the best way to score the best here, why would I or anyone else think they are wrong. Look at it this way, if bowlers who can split boards, the ones who wouldn't need to make the shot like a THS to score well, think this is best way to do it, why is it wrong?
And I do think I am usually a nice guy. I think you are probably as well. We are both passionate about our sport but see this one item differently. That is what makes this sport and this country so great.
And Bowling 300 900, the inherent flaw in your logic is that Ray Bluth would be smart enough to know to stick with the team plan and wouldn't move inside. So this is an epic fail. As I mentioned above, some of the best bowlers in the country who bowl in this tournament think following a plan is the way to get the best scores, so why would another set of great bowlers (if they were here) do something different? Now Weber, Bluth and those guys may not play the same area as some of today's bowlers, but they would work together. They did so when they bowled in the past. Some of that was dictated by the lanes, the oil (shellac), and the equipment. And remember, that in the past, the equipment dis alter the oil as quickly or as greatly as it does today. But the real question is are you going to answer any of the questions directed at you?
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Can't it be said that developing the sport shot into an easier shot takes SKILL. I doubt the big boys develop the nationals shot into a "house shot". Is it easier than the fresh? Absolutely! Is it a house shot? Of course not!
And to think bowlers from the generations of yore didn't manipulate lane conditions to their advantage is being a little naive.
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I've played Cheetah from the 4th arrow in PBA play, and I've played Shark up the 2-3 board.
Both of these times there were guys playing in and guys playing out for 8 games and nobody was moaning and groaning about the shim, pattern manipulation or any of the nonsense that goes on in TEAM BOWLING.
I play where I can strike the most...period. If it means that I have to give up on the "team" plan than it is what it is. I'm there to put up the biggest number I can for the TEAM by bowling to the best of MY ABILITY. I'm not there to play cutezies with oil patterns.
It does the team no good to force a player in a zone and have them shoot 150's while the others are shooting 220's when the said player could of moved into a spot on the lane and to shoot 190 or better. The movement of the player in isn't going to effect the others ability to shoot 220's that much and if it does this effing game is so screwed up it's time to stop playing it and call it a sham.
Here is one last thought. Do you really think these super teams need that much help to beat you? Your doing them a favor by allowing them to distort the pattern to get the lanes to play easier. You would be better off letting the lanes stay hard and have shot making since it's very possible that a player could have a bad day, be confused or just not get the job done. The more you allow the teams to make the lanes better for themselves the above gets throw out the window.
You want to morph the pattern to have mistake room to the right while at the same time keep everyone off the "shim" so you have mistake hold room left. How much mistake room do you HONESTLY feel you are entitled too. Let's move the pins closer while we are at it. The problem here is entitlement to mistake room. Everyone feels they are entitled to more than there should be allowed. The answer should be zero entitlement to mistake room, and zero allowed to be created in PRACTICE with bowling balls that change the pattern. It's one thing to change the pattern while SCORING play is going on, it's another to purposely change the playing surface during the warm up or PRACTICE time.
Maybe in team golf they should let the golf teams manicure the green some how before each team tees off so that they can get the best possible read of the greens and have the greens roll exactly to their own liking.
What "real" sport lets you purposely deface and manipulate the playing surface before score is even counted?
This wasn't much of a factor when you only had 2 balls on each lane to warm up. Everyone moaned about that since you need more than 2 balls to warm up the muscles and it would be better for the older guys physically.
So the USBC gave in and allowed a warm up time.
Than bowlers figured out a way take advantage of the very thing they lobbied for (warm up than became practice bowling time) and created pattern carving to suit their own needs.
The USBC with no back bone said fine let's promote this as TEAM BOWLING.
Pattern carving and team bowling is only a by product of bowling teams trying to take advantage of something that they wanted and was supposed to be for the well being and health of the bowlers.
END OF STORY.
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Jorge, your remark about putting a fresh shot out for minor events is something i mentioned in an earlier post. I remember standing near guys at Nationals and hearing them moan about having to follow hackers on the lanes and having to try and score on what was left over. Not wanting to argue anymore, but both this and carving in the team event just show me (I don't know about anyone else) that bowlers ( no matter what average they carry) want the shot to be easier and when people harp about the easy house shots out there, they look like hypocrites when doing so.
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Bowling 300 900,
If a player goes from shooting 190's to 150's because they moved right and played where the team is, sounds like an issue for that player, not the team. I guess that player isn't as good as he thinks he is then.
Also, as I mentioned before, yet you ignored twice now. One player can have a major impact on the oil. During a coaching session with Bill Hall at Baton Rouge on the Showcase Lanes, one of the things he does is near the end of your session is he walks you down to the pin deck and shows you the "damage" you have done to the freshly oiled pattern. Same oil, same lanes as what the real tournament used. One bowler throwing maybe 1.5 games worth of shots and it was easy to see where the oil had disappeared, been carried down and moved left and right. You can continue to deny it, but it is a fact.
Again in your posts it is I, I, I, I - that is what I have taken issue with from day 1. It isn't all about you. It is about the team scoring the best. If you sacrifice 40 pins off your total score, to add 100 pins to the other 4 guys total score, that is a net 60 pin gain for team. Again, why is your money more important then the other 4 guys' money that paid just as much as you to enter that event? You feel it is fine to throw their money away in order for you to make more for you. And you wonder why I called you selfish, that is the definition of the word.
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Bowling 300 900,
You act like you can throw a ball down the lane and have no effect on the pattern. EVERY ball thrown, whether the 2 balls per lane or whether 10 mins of practice changes the lane. C'mon man, you aren't this dumb. Plus, I have been bowling this tournament for 15 years, and it was always 10 mins of practice for team event when I bowled. The only change to practice in that time was to minors, which now has 6 mins instead of two balls per lane. Maybe sometime before I started, it was only 2 balls per lane in team, but it hasn't been that way for a long time, so that arguement is another EPIC fail by you.
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TDC57,
As I said you 300 900, every shot down the lane changes the lane. That is what happens, that is physics. The oil will not be the same after even 1 shot. So you have 2 choices, you can allow people to play whereever they want and allow that change to happen randomly....even to the point where the lanes become unscorable. Have you ever followed teams that threw the ball everywhere, guys literally playing from 20- 5? The ball hooks at 5, and doesn't hook at 8, yet hooks again at 12. You try to move in and the ball hooks early at 15 but slides at 12 all and you have pretty much no chance to score well. They allowed the change to happen randomly. The other option is to control that breakdown in known pattern. By following a game plan you know where the hook will be.
The lanes will never be as easy as THS. You will never have 5-7 boards of room to either side of your mark, no matter how much you work together. Let me turn it around and ask you the reverse. Why not just make the lanes unscorable from frame 1. Oil only every 3 boards, and then leave 3 boards with no oil whatsoever. But don't do it in any pattern. Oil 15 and out 50 feet and 15 -15 30 feet. Vary the volume of oil across and down the lanes. Let the winner shoot 2900 to win team event next year. Is that real bowling??? Is that what you want??? I am not trying to argue, but I want to understand why you feel working together to make the breakdown happen in a controlled manner is so bad. I think the issue is the definition of easy. If you think it is easy to break the lanes down as a team, then why isn't everyone doing it and everyone shooting 3300-3400? Why did it take 15 years for a team to break the total record? This scenario makes the lanes easier, but it by no means makes them easy. You still need to make good shots, control your speed, and control the breakpoint in order get strikes consistently. On THS I have seen it, and I have done it, where people can vary speed by 3-4 MPH and still strike. On THS you can miss your breakpoint by 3-4 boards (if not more) and still strike. Even after 2-3 games, you still can't do that and strike at Nationals. The lanes never become EASY. And I think that is where your hang-up is.
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1999 in Syracuse was the last time even took this tournament seriously. I totally can't remember but there was I think only 2 balls per lane per bowler in team. Maybe it was the start of doubles. I remember getting an X or a check mark next to your name after you threw a practice ball.
I don't remember any carving in 1999.
I could be wrong about the balls per practice in 99.
If in your practice time your focus is not on warming up and getting lose than it can be said that your goal is to remove the conditioner on the lane to make the shot "easier" than it was intended to be.
Stop trying to justify your actions and just call it like it is. Your not warming up, your trying to remove the lane oil in spots on the lane to make the lane "easier". It's not that hard to understand.
Lane carving makes the lane "easier", nobody said it makes the lane 279 a game league hack fest easy but the goal is to remove the oil from the lane (the challenge) and make the lane a bit easier than what its was intended to be.
If you allow bowlers in PRACTICE to remove the conditioner on the lane as they see fit than the integrity of the whole entire tournament is lost.
What happens to the teams that don't have 10 guys from the same home town or pro shop. Do they get to ask the USBC for another 5 knives to bowl with them? How is having 10 knives from the same home town fair for the guys who only can get 5 guys.
Keep playing the manipulation game and justify it till your blue in the face. I'm not going to agree with you.
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Bowling 300 900,
I keep saying you can't be this stupid...but you are making me think I am wrong. The goal is not to remove conditioner from the lane. That is the result of every ball thrown. EVERY ball thrown, EVERY ONE, removes conditioner from the lane or moves it in some manner down, left or right. That is physics of bowling. And your ignoring it, doesn't make any less true. The goal is to remove or move the confitioner in a controlled manner. So that you are aware of how the lanes are breaking down and you are allowing your team the best chance to score it's best. When you say things like "If you allow bowlers in PRACTICE to remove the conditioner on the lane as they see fit..." it makes me think you don't understand this game at all. Even if every bowler played a different line in practice, you will still be removing conditioner from the lane, and they are doing it as they see fit. The problem is they are doing it randomly which in the end will make the lanes much harder to score on come game 2 and game 3. I'll ask you the same thing I did TDC57, should we just start with the lanes impossibly hard to score on, oiling only every 3 boards, skipping 3 boards in some random pattern? Should they oil 15 and out 50 feet and 15 to 15 30 feet, using different volumes of oil in sections across the lanes?? This way a score of 2900 wins. And guess what, teams will still work together to be successful and they best teams to do that will still be at the top. The only difference will be the scores will be lower.
If you can't get 10 guys to come then you do the best that you can with 5 guys. You can talk to the team that is bowling with you in the squad room and try to get them on board. But if not, then you go with what you have. The premise is still the same. You are controlling the breakdown of the lane to the best of your abilities. And just for your information, our 10 guys came from at least 3 different states and 2 countries to bowl together. So it can be done even if you can't get 10 from your "hometown".
And I have never said you had to agree with me, but you can't keep spitting in the face of facts and expect me not to respond. I don't care if you agree or not, especially after you keep harping on how this is all about you. You would never bowl on my team, even in league with this kind of selfish attitude. In fact, you would probably one of the few people I have had discussions on here with that I don't think I would even like if I met you in person, your attitude sucks on here so I can't imagine it is much better in person.
I bowled in Syracuse in 1999 and the 2 balls per lane with the X was before minors. It was 10 mins of practice before team.
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So it's fine for 10 guys to park their behind in practice in one spot to dry the lanes up and this is acceptable simply because the bowling ball does the same thing during scoring play. Unless you got 10 robots bowling, not all 10 guys once scoring play begins play the same area. Than again that is what the en-titlist carving people want. 10 guys who play the same exact area of the lane so in practice they can park their behinds and throw the ball around the 7 board to get mistake room and then move a few boards left to play around 10. Everyone plays close around 10, but if one guy wants to go 15 to 10 than he is a donkey that isn't a team player.
Just because the bowling ball removes the oil during scoring play doesn't give you entitlement to carve the lanes up during practice with a team game plan. That's a poor excuse for justification in what you do. Lanes changing during scoring play is not the same as 10 guys parking it in spot for 10 mins to make the lanes "EASIER"
I get it you have an entitlement to be a carver team player and you guys feel you should be able to do whatever you want to rape and pillage the other bowlers who are donating to you.
You pretty much say tough s**t to the group of 5 guys who don't have a companion team to carve the lanes, but once somebody doesn't play your little game there hell to pay.
I am ANTI premeditated lane manipulation and you are PRO premeditated lane manipulation and I'm not going to see eye to eye with your justification.
It goes on at every level of bowling play. PBA, Nationals, States etc. It's a bunch of baloney but it's what it is until the bowling industry does something about the bowling balls.
I'm seriously done with this argument because it's getting nowhere on either end. I'm not going to reply to anymore of this.
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300 900,
Ok, I guess you are that stupid. The bowling ball doesn't just start changing the pattern when scoring starts. It does it every time, now look and read carefully, EVERY TIME it goes down the lane. That's practice or scoring. Now you can have 5 guys play 5 different lines from the first shot of practice and continue that into scoring. What is going to happen when you get to game 2? The player that was in deepest, can move left into more oil and continue scoring at the pace he was in game 1. The next player moves into where Player 1 played game 1 and has a different reaction from what he had before and must find a brand new shot to the pocket. Same goes for players 3,4, and 5. So only 1 player has the same look they had in game 1, 1 out of 5 only 20% of the team. So 80% of the team has a harder shot to play in game 2, and that continues into game 3. So for 66.7% of the time, 80% of the team has a harder shot then they started with. Does sound like a winning formula to you?
And, I don't get your hang up with the fact that working together makes the lanes easier. Do you want them to be harder after you started? The idea is to score your best. Based on the way today's balls effect the lanes when thrown, the best way to accomplish this is to break the lanes down in a know, consistant way. Why is that wrong? Why is it wrong for a team to do it's best as a team? You still have never answered that question. And where does this entitlement mumbo jumbo come from. Who said anything about being entitled to anything. Why can't 5 or 10 players, depending on how many players you have, play the same area? Is it illegal? I bowl on a Sport Shot league, when we have Cheetah out, everybody on our pair plays the same area....are we wrong? Are we not allowed to do that anymore? And guess what, by the 3rd and 4th game, the lanes are easier then when we started. You get a little miss room where you can move in a little and have a little tug and a little room out (not too far though thanks to that damn gutter, :) ) so I guess everyone on our pair are just bad people huh? In fact everyone in our league usually does it, so I guess our whole league is wrong by your account right?
See, your logic falls flat on it's face when presented examples outside of this setting. Sports Patterns usually require people playing in the same area. All you are doing at Nationals is taking that requirement and using it control the breakdown on the lanes, in order to allow the team to score it's best. Most people don't play a Sports pattern 5 or 10 boards different from others. And in your scenario, yes, if the team agreed to play 10 and someone goes into 15, then yes they are not a team player, I think that is quite obvious. And if I was on that team, I would express my displeasure with that bowler. Now if he discussed with his teammates and the group decided it would be ok for him to deveate from the game plan, then I have no issues with it. But to just do it so that person can score better at the possible detriment to the rest of the team, that is selfish.
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See, your logic falls flat on it's face when presented examples outside of this setting. Sports Patterns usually require people playing in the same area. All you are doing at Nationals is taking that requirement and using it control the breakdown on the lanes, in order to allow the team to score it's best.
Not for nothing, but if you watch BowlTV's coverage of Nicholas J.'s Pro Shop #2 and their performance at the USBC open, you will see exactly what teamwork does, and how they all worked together. IIRC, they all shot great scores for team (both their 1st and 2nd team).
Most people don't play a Sports pattern 5 or 10 boards different from others. And in your scenario, yes, if the team agreed to play 10 and someone goes into 15, then yes they are not a team player, I think that is quite obvious. And if I was on that team, I would express my displeasure with that bowler. Now if he discussed with his teammates and the group decided it would be ok for him to deveate from the game plan, then I have no issues with it. But to just do it so that person can score better at the possible detriment to the rest of the team, that is selfish.
This was apparent in Stef Nation's team play, when they were rather all over the place. Nation had the best look of everyone on the pair, but since everyone else was all over the place, their scores suffered, and that was sad. It wasn't because they were being selfish, mind you; but just the simple fact that there wasn't any type of consistency there so they could all shoot well. Their tracks converged and conflicted with each other, making their lines squirly/erratic, and made for a tough night all around.
But you can easily see with these performances how running your own race may be your own comfort zone, but can be a detriment to your team, as well as your performance overall as well, both on the scoreboard and mentally.
BL.
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Brad your making a point everyone understands. The real discussion point here is the carving of the lanes making a softer shot to score on and is that different than the house shots that many complain about. These guys carve the lanes with balls (in practice) that they won't use in the event, to make more room to score. A lane man puts out a shot that has more room to play? Difference? Not much, right?
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TDC,
A few things:
1) The majority of teams DON'T use different balls in practice over what they throw during competition. A lot of people feel using highly sanded balls creates too much of an over/under on the lanes and doesn't do any good.
2) Having everyone work together makes the lanes easier, but it does not make them easy. On a THS you have 5 boards sometimes on either side of your mark at the arrows, plus you have miss room at your break point as well. You do not need accuracy or consistentcy of speed at all to score well. That is not the case at Nationals. You still need to be relatively close to your mark at the arrows (once you have broken down the lanes and must be right on it before that) and you MUST hit your breakpoint down the lane. You still are required to throw good shots in order to score well. If you work together all you are doing is a) Breaking the lanes down in a known way in order to allow everyone the ability to understand the shot in games 2 and 3 and b) creating a small amount of room to the right in case a ball is right of target. To say that using teamwork to break down the lanes is like bowling on THS is farcical at best.
3) If you feel this is such a bad thing, what do you suggest? Should team purposely throw different lines as to make the lanes tougher to play then when they started? Do you tell a group of bowlers who all throw the same type of ball (tweeners, crankers, etc, not brand/make of ball) that they can't play the lanes together, even though the pattern says they should, because that would make the lanes too easy and isn't fair? I am waiting you see you responses to these and the questions I asked you before. You feel it is so wrong for teams to work together (you know actually use teamwork) yet have no problem with people making the lanes harder then they need to be and thus effectively turning these teams into donators.
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I will finally chime in on this.
I wish the game was about who executed better. Who threw the most accurate and consistent shots should come out on top.
But that is not the game. There has always been an element of luck involved where bad shots happen to strike or not produce splits.
Before resin balls there was very little manipulation of the lane pattern. You just couldn't move/remove enough lane conditioner.
But that is the game we are stuck with today. If you want your team to succeed in these type of events then you have to work together to alter the condition so that the team as a whole doesn't have to physically execute shots as well.
You can argue that shot managing is part of today's execution but it really isn't part of the bowlers physical execution of a shot.
I personally don't like it. It gives teams that have the resources to bring 10 bowlers a distinct advantage, assuming the work together. It gives teams with ball contracts, inside information from USBC and booths on what is working, and the resources to bowl on the condition for months a huge advantage.
But it is what it is. And if you go nationals or similar events you have to know that teams that do work together will beat up virtually any team that does not.
If you do not participate with the lane manipulation then you are relegating your team to a mediocre finish at best.
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Pinbuster,
I freely admit that part of this is to help create area where there is none. But that is only part of it. The other part is to break the lanes down in a controlled fashion, and that is the part people seem to overlook. If you have 5 or 10 guys just playing everywhere, the lanes breakdown randomly based on where they are throwing. People playing right of others get oil pushed into their line, and when they try to move in, they have areas that were broken down by the other bowlers and it makes it much harder to get a good read on moves and adjustments. If everyone plays together, then when you move in you know where the oil is and where the dry is, and you can make calculated adjustments/ball choices based on that. Instead of having to guess cause there were people playing differently all over the right side of the lane.
And again, I think you are taking too much away from the actual execution of the shot. You will gain a small amout of room at the arrows with a strategy like this. Not a lot. And you still have to be consistent in hitting your breakpoint and with your speed. Scoring well at the USBC OC is still about who makes the best shots, even when they use this strategy. I can't fathom why everyone thinks this just opens it up for anyone to score well and that execution doesn't mean anything. That is totally incorrect. If anything it adds an element to the execution. Not only do you have to execute well physically on the lanes, you have execute well mentally before you bowl to make sure you have a solid plan in place based on the shot given (playing the right line in practice, not using too heavily sanded equipment, etc).
ON EDIT: Also, the teams that have resources to bowl on the shot for months in advance, and have the ball contracts, have had those same advantages for decades. Why is it an issue now? The booths are very glad to tell everyone what new balls are working well, since they want you to buy one from them. That is not an advantage to anyone, well maybe the people who have the money to get the ball, but a good majority of them aren't on the top of the leaderboard. Most of those people have had the balls they used with them for some time, so they know how it fits with the rest of their equipment, know how to adjust with, and know what ball to use next.
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Jorge300 we are not that far apart in state of the current game. Yes you are not going to get area like a house shot. But at the USBC open this year a bowler shot a triplicate 279 and in the article he states he tugged a ball 3 or 4 boards and it held pocket.
http://www.bowl.com/news/newsdetails.aspx?id=12884907823
Second the last I knew this was a 5 person event not a 10 person event. I'm not so sure that lane pairing should not be random. You can come with your companion team but no assurance of bowling on the same pair.
I go back to plastic and rubber. And with the limited amount of conditioner on the lane and the balls limited ability to remove oil it allowed bowlers to play their shot and the lanes broke down in a controlled manner.
I think the game was better then but that is my opinion.
I'm tired after a good score of being asked what ball was used and not how well an individual performed.
Again I realize that this is the game today and the reality is you have to manipulate the shot in controlled manner to score your best. But I don't have to like it.
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I would like to chime in on my Nationals Experience. Let me describe myself a little. I have about 500rpm and throw about 17-18 mph. So fairly enoug hand, and was using the Roto Grip Disturbed OOB surface through Team and D/S all 9 games. Bowled Team last Wednesday night 7pm squad and D/S 1030pm squad! My experience with Team Was Disappointing USBC or Our Captain that put together our 18 teams messed up our crossing team! We practiced with a team we were supposed to cross with a few times before we left and had a good game plan! Well that WASNT the team we got paired with. Dont know if USBC or our Person setting the teams up messed up. Well either way we tried to explain our plan to the other team. They were open to it at first in the squad room! Well that wasnt the case. Our plan was to break it down 6-7-8 and not jump left until we seen fit around end game 1 into game 2 and chase it little by little left. We were on 29-30 to the right of the middle walkway!
Well the other team seen it fit to jump inside 17-18 at arrows and 10 downlane. Well that didnt go good for me or our team who was trying to stay right. For me i shot 510 Team and was partly my fault for not trying to salvage the 3 games and jump in and score as much as possible. neither team broke 2600.....
D/S we were paired up with 4 of 5 of our teammates , the other 2 we knew from our group. They Listened to us and followed our lead. Also don't know if anyone has had this happen but we did our D/S on the same team pair 29-30 AGAIN! Our doubles and singles was fairly better. Our plan was to throw plastic up 15 and create the SHIM you all are talking about. In practice i threw my disturbed 3 times and threw plastic about 10 more times. We had about 10-12 balls of plastic on each lane before we started play. I threw my disturbed one more time on the right lane just to get a feel for it before Play started. started playing 12 at arrows out to about 7-8 209-231 moved about 2-1 during those 2 games. 3rd 226- moved 2-1 . start of singles moved another 2-1 and stayed there for the first 2 games of singles and went 266-235. 501 Slim chance at the Singles lead was in my grasp. Moved maybe 1 more and went front 6 and left 4 pin finished 226. Lost the moment feeling pressure of lead especially with the singles leader just happen to be there watching. Plastic was the way to go for creating that hold down lane and allowed me and our team mates to not jump too far left like we saw everyone else in our group doing . Overall very happy with D/S and an awesome experience going through the 3rd game with singles lead 5 strikes away!
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Jorge300 we are not that far apart in state of the current game. Yes you are not going to get area like a house shot. But at the USBC open this year a bowler shot a triplicate 279 and in the article he states he tugged a ball 3 or 4 boards and it held pocket.
http://www.bowl.com/news/newsdetails.aspx?id=12884907823
Second the last I knew this was a 5 person event not a 10 person event. I'm not so sure that lane pairing should not be random. You can come with your companion team but no assurance of bowling on the same pair.
I go back to plastic and rubber. And with the limited amount of conditioner on the lane and the balls limited ability to remove oil it allowed bowlers to play their shot and the lanes broke down in a controlled manner.
I think the game was better then but that is my opinion.
I'm tired after a good score of being asked what ball was used and not how well an individual performed.
Again I realize that this is the game today and the reality is you have to manipulate the shot in controlled manner to score your best. But I don't have to like it.
This is my big issue with it too. It's 5 man teams, not 10 man teams. There should be no 10 man anything, nor should doubles partners be paired with their teammates if we're trying to be fair about this. But lets be honest, USBC isn't really trying to be fair about this at all.
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It is true that prior to resin, it was not possible to easily manipulate the oil patterns. However the other side of that coin is that the lack of friction in the balls forced everyone closer to the same area of the lane, thus opening up a track over a period of games. Also much lighter oil volumes and viscosities were tracked in more quickly. All the best teams bowled the late squads years ago because the shot would be opened up for them by the early squads.
Also, I think something nobody has really touched in is the incrementally small advantage lane manipulation has to most teams. Teams that come in and shoot 3300 are good teams that are going to score well regardless. A team that comes in and shoots 2700 without trying to manipulate the lanes is not going to crack 2900 no matter how intelligently they attack the pattern.
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So the guys saying we don't need to carve the shot to score, i have question for you all.
Why is it that teams that are winning the event are carving? Teams AND obviously individuals on teams score better when they prep the shot.
As a bowler in that situation i am going to do what gets me the best scores...so i am gonna carve them up.
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Anyone that's bowled after a good group in minors under the old system of minors knows the difference carving the lanes out makes for even average bowlers.
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had to chime in here. we have had a.group of 2 teams that have.bowled nationals in various.combinations for the past 7 to 10 years. We have 2 pba.card holders but they are aging regional guys that have cashed a few times over their careers. the rest of us are all approaching or over 50 and would call us all competitive house hacks. All 210+ None of us bowl sports leagues or tournaments. our teams previous high was somewhere in the 2800s. we have been trying to get the 9 righthanders to play together for 3 years with me being the lone lefty. for 3 years it never happened. this year it finally did. the righties all played the same line and the magic happened. the 4 righties and myself shot 3250+. we beat our best score ever by 400 pins and finished in 96th. so you dont have to been a member of the name teams to score high. high avg league guys who are consistent and willing to work together can be a top 100 or better team.
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The only reason carving in a shot is even a discussion is because the modern balls allow guys to essentially play anywhere they want and carve a shot in ( or blow it up ). The old balls wouldn't allow guys with high revs to get in the middle of the oil and blow a hole in it. Everyone scored better if they played closer to 10 board out of the gate, which caused the shot to open up after a game. Today you can have a guy blasting a 230 over 4th arrow, and another guy shooting a ton up second arrow the first game. By the second game carry down and blown heads have ruined it for both. You just didn't get this situation prior to resin balls.
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So the guys saying we don't need to carve the shot to score, i have question for you all.
Why is it that teams that are winning the event are carving? Teams AND obviously individuals on teams score better when they prep the shot.
Ironically, we've yet to hear an answer to this.
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Keep in mind I have no dog in the hunt, I've never been to this event but its interesting to read what is going on and peoples views on it.
Being someone from the outside looking in, I must admit that it seems ridiculous that with a 5 man team event, that people are essentially allowed to bring in an extra teams to help them score better.
It also seems bad to me that they allow people to bowl for 10 minutes before scoring to " warm up" when apparently everyone and their mother knows its not really a warm up, but a lane prepping event.
Like I said, as someone from the outside I see a few things that would make things far more legitimate in my eyes.
1. They need to cut down on the practice time. Yes I understand the older guys need more time to get limbered up, but 10 minutes is a bit excessive.
2. They need to limit what balls can be used for said practice. Yes I understand that all balls will change the condition somewhat, but with less time in warm up and less ability to soak in practice its less of an issue.
3. If its a 5 man team, then you should be randomly paired at entry, not be able to choose who you are going to be bowling with. Its not a 5man team game then, its a 10 man team game then with the people that only have 5 at a disadvantage out the gate.
I get both sides of the argument I understand that you should do whats best for the team. What I feel though is that the team strategy should be something that is in play while the matches are on going. Its one thing to have a strategy for actual scoring, and something completely different when 50% of that is done months prior to setting foot on the lanes.
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I return to my argument that this problem has been caused by the super aggressive shells on balls. I have been a proponent for along time of disallowing resin balls, and requiring that urethane be buffed to 4000. My argument has never had anything to do with the scoring levels, but rather what the hook in a box shells do to the lane pattern.
It is ironic that just as technology finally gave us lane machines that could precisely put down oil patterns the way greens keepers mow and water greens, we get balls that blow these patterns up so fast it makes little difference what pattern is put down.
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avabob, the pattern goes that fast even if all ten players are playing the same area it still takes incredible shot making to put up a good team set. Just because ten guys have a plan doesn't guarantee huge numbers some if those teams still struggle
If all ten are not in the same area and breaking the pattern down, you may well end up with a tougher shot than it was when you started.
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just play the damn game
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Let it go gentlemen. There will never be agreement on this subject. Whether it's carving a pattern or bowling on a THS, for both it's about making the lane easier. I just hope the so called purists or elitists depending on who's describing them, know that fact. You can't carve and bitch about the THS. You do and you're a hypocrite!!!
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I've stated how I feel and what I feel is acceptable when bowling team events.
The "I" in "team". Lolz ;D :P :-X
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I'm drilling an Incinerate with a double thumb layout, and sanding it with a N pad. I really want to play 2nd arrow without worrying about the ball going too long.