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Author Topic: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?  (Read 8477 times)

Joebowler98

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Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« on: February 28, 2008, 03:01:51 AM »
I have heard that many of the top teams commit to "break down their pair" to make a shot. Anyone care to share their stragedy for doing this?

 

Rileybowler

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2008, 05:38:12 PM »
I agree with you Charlest its cheating, gaining an advantage
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lefty50

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2008, 07:57:55 PM »
Adding to that point, let me modify my earlier use of the word "cheat". In the example I reference, the poster spent half the post laughing at "whiny" left handers who couldn't handle oil, THEN mentioned how they could basically dig a ditch and how good they were.
JEEZ.....
If 5 right handers dig a trench to carve out a path in the oil and the one poor lefty can't get a ball to turn a corner, then yes, I think that's cheating by virtue of gaining an unfair advantage.

And before I hear from the lame righties who complain the left is easy, the issue here is not being able to turn the corner, in which case the poor guy skating on ice is screwed and doesn't even get to enjoy it.

'Nuff said.

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renoatpikeville

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2008, 08:05:19 PM »
quote:
quote:
Every shot you throw changes the lane pattern, so the choice is between trying to do it in a logical way or a haphazard way. We choose to do it logically, though we have been wrong in our gameplan at least once.


That's situational rationalization or situational ethics.
It's still wrong and it's still cheating, no matter what twist you put on it. Strider was trying to be polite; I am not. It's cheating. period. end of story.


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Well if its cheating than Norm Duke and many others on tour are cheaters...

Get real...it's called strategy.

Edited on 3/1/2008 9:06 PM

lefty50

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2008, 08:17:38 PM »
Sigh. You're still missing the point... I might even agree that 1-1 it may be a strategy, although many would frown on it. However, 5 doing it on one side vs one on the other... Naw, unfair advantage.
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renoatpikeville

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2008, 08:29:15 PM »
quote:
Sigh. You're still missing the point... I might even agree that 1-1 it may be a strategy, although many would frown on it. However, 5 doing it on one side vs one on the other... Naw, unfair advantage.
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I bowled in college in 05-07 at Pikeville College...at the majority of tournaments we as a team had pre tournament meetings where we decided to all attack the lanes the same...in practice, during competition, match play until we were finished. Most of the better schools did this i.e. WSU, Saginaw, Vincinnes, Fresno St., AZ St. and so on.

We even placed certain bowlers with the same skill set on the same team.
This way we could read our teammates ball reactions and adjust for it rather than being surprised by a split. It promoted communication, trust, and team unity.

It has now become part of competitive bowling at least at the collegiate level.

If anyone thinks this is a form of cheating, then how do you feel about knowing what the shot is before the tournament?

Thanks...just a little vent.

riggs

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2008, 06:08:37 AM »
Charlest, your post amazes me. (And anyone who agrees with him likewise.)
EVERY SHOT A BOWLER THROWS CHANGES THE LANE PATTERN!
There is NOTHING anyone can do to change that fact.
When the day comes that someone hopefully invents an oil-less lane surface this unfortunate situation will no longer be with us.
Until then we as bowlers know that whatever we do will alter our environment, which is something we all must take into account in deciding how to play the lanes.
Given that UNDENIABLE FACT bowlers must devise the most logical strategy to deal with how bowling is.
The most logical strategy is to work together instead of against each other when bowling team competition.
Cheating would be if you had a choice to do nothing to your environment and then chose to alter it in some way to benefit you.

I am curious to know what a non-cheating manner would be?
Do all 10 bowlers have to play a different line. Can only 2 or 3 or 4 or ?? play the same line?
Where do you draw the line?

DanH78

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2008, 08:03:44 AM »
Everyone wants challenging conditions...for everyone else that is.  

I don't really have a problem with an entire team getting together saying "Ok, we're going to play between 2nd and 3rd arrow to a break point of 8", as long as they are using their tournament equipment.  Although I think that lane assignments should be random so you can't have 10 guys doing it to one pair.  What I have the problem with is the guys taking 60 grit equipment to burn a line.  Or how about the guys that see their opponent is going to play 1st arrow, while their plan is to play 3rd, so they take their sponge and pipe it up the first arrow to destroy the opponents line.  Unfortunately, technology leapfrogged the rules, and I don't we can catch up without throwing 1000's of bowlers into a hissy fit.  

Legal?  Yes.  Ethical?  Hardly.
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richartm

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2008, 08:07:46 AM »
How silly...

This is clearly not cheating.

CHEAT
transitive verb
1: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice

intransitive verb
1: to practice fraud or trickery
2: to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>

There's no deceit, fraud, or rules violation; the strategy is 'out there' for all to discuss, critique, and copy.

Is the practice unethical? That's not quite as straightforward (although it's pretty close, in my opinion). In other sports we applaud the team that works together for a common goal. Is it wrong for a baseball team to come up with a unified approach against an opposing pitcher (lay off the curveball, wait for fastballs)? Baseball also has the sacrifice, where the hitter gives up his chance to get a hit for the betterment of the team. Should all hitters be required to hack away every time?

Was it unethical for the younger, less-experienced US Olympic hockey players in 1980 to "team" up on the superior Soviets? Perhaps each player should have just gone out and done their own thing, and let the chips fall where they may...?

My only question for Riggs is about minors. Is it appropriate for someone who is struggling in Singles to consider "helping" another who is scoring well? Either by getting off his line or trying to improve it?

richartm

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2008, 08:12:43 AM »
As you can see by the times, DanH and I were composing our posts at the same time. My reply was directed at earlier posters, not DanH.

WrOnGwAy

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2008, 08:57:24 AM »
I'm also amazed that so many of you see this as cheating and fail to see that this is just a well planned effort to give themselves the best chance.  Having guys throwing practice and the actual games all over the lanes tears up the shot.  By putting together a team that actually can play in a similar area and angle to the pocket holds the shot and opens up the lanes.  Also, this gives the teammates the opportunity to read eachothers shots and see lane changes through eachothers shots. Plus, this is something everyone is entitled to do.  I'm left handed and don't get the chance to "break down the pair" with others, but don't have a problem with those that do.

mrfish

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2008, 07:49:06 PM »
For those who think it is cheating, why don't you try it some time. It is a great effort by a whole team that enables this to work perfectly. I think the reason you think it is cheating, is because you don't have the ability to do it yourself. My Nationals  teams have been guilty of not having the ability to do this, because not all of us can play where we need to. Instead, we play where we feel more comfortable, and that's not usually fourth arrow.

Anyway, I just had to give my two cents worth. I just find it hard to believe that some of you compare this post to the one about the classified division guy who couldn't have cheated more if someone knocked the pins over for him. Sandbagging is the worst form of cheating in bowling. PERIOD!!


Rileybowler

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2008, 08:07:15 PM »
If that is not cheating, then nothing you do in bowling is cheating. If you do something to gain an unfair advantage then it is cheating plain and simple. This rationalization that each shot changes is a bunch of junk , it is not the same thing as five bowlers on purpose for the sole express intent of gain an advantage by throwing their ball at the same target
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riggs

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2008, 08:08:44 PM »
Richart, we have had situations where we have moved around in minors to help each other. Example: In Corpus Christi, Mac and Shades were doing well playing out, while Richter and I were not doing so well out, so the two of us moved in to 1) see if we could find something there; 2) leave the out to those two. Remember, there is a TEAM ALL-EVENTS title to consider, too, so we were helping ourselves as well as them, not to mention side action we split.

Bigger issue with minors is not every squad being on fresh so not everyone starts with the same pattern. Is it "cheating" if the people in front of one group in minors all play in the same place and make a pair easy, while others play all over and make someone else's pair hard???

DanH78

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2008, 08:13:04 AM »
Riggs

What is fair?  In the bagger thread, you talk about how as true sportsmen, we should strive for equity, but in this thread, you basically say you are paying a team of somewhat lesser bowlers to bowl your way so your team can score better.  How is that fair?
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riggs

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Re: Art of Breaking Down a Pair to make a shot?
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2008, 08:27:43 AM »
Lesser bowlers? LOL! Three of our No. 2 team have Eagles, a fourth has a second and third place finish, and the fifth has a third place finish! And we've all been friends and bowled together for years.

The most prestigious part of the USBC Tournament is the Team Event and we take that to another level with our 10-man team concept. We epitomize what it's all about, IMHO - all for one and one for all.