Post by: Joebowler98 on February 28, 2008, 03:01:51 AM
Post by: KDawg77 on February 28, 2008, 11:06:49 AM
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Ken
Sometimes you are the cheetah and sometimes you are the stick...
Videos at http://www.putfile.come/k-dawg77
http://www.myspace.com/lefthandedhammerpride
http://khlthe2nd.bowlspace.com
http://members.bowl.com/FindAMember/memberView.aspx?mp=418&ms=2006&s=2006-2007
Edited on 2/29/2008 11:36 AM
Post by: themachine300 on February 29, 2008, 10:34:48 AM
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www.bowlingsolutions.com
Move left, hook it more.....
Tommy Jones is a Gamecock fan...are you???
We shall now refer a 4-bagger as a hambone...Mark it down the revolution has started!
Post by: Strider on February 29, 2008, 06:39:35 PM
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Penn State Proud
Special thanks to Lane#1 for donations to two consecutive Ballreviews Get Togethers.
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Post by: riggs on February 29, 2008, 08:05:23 PM
Again, keep in mind that EVERY SHOT CHANGES THE PATTERN. You can not legislate that away with rules. Your choice is to work together or just fire away randomly. To ensure that all our guys work together, I long ago devised and sold everyone on a 10-way split of brackets. We all put in the same amount, some guys get put in more brackets, but we split all winnings equally. That way everyone knows it is to their benefit to work together and not "shimwreck" by going 5 or 10 boards left of everyone else. Someone who violated our 10-man philosophy would be looking for a new team the next year. And, yes, my team is typically giving up some money to our other team in splitting brackets, but we know having them work with us helps us, and they are a good team that in some years has bowled as well as us. Plus, we are all great friends and this makes the USBC experience much more of a shared experience that is a helluva lot more fun than going it alone.
Edited on 2/29/2008 9:06 PM
Post by: Platinum Bowler on February 29, 2008, 08:18:53 PM
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B-Car
Post by: riggs on March 01, 2008, 04:55:25 AM
You make up a sheet that everyone attaches to their tax returns each year. It lists name, Social Security number, everyone signs it, then has columns for ENTRY FEES, WINNINGS and ALLOCATED WINNINGS (what each person got in splitting). That shows the IRS that what a big winner in a group may have on their 1099 from USBC is NOT what they took home from the event and explains to the IRS how the winnings were split. We have never had a problem in the years we have done this - and it goes back to the 1990s. My accountant set this up the first time and now we just do it ourselves each year.
The other way it can be done is for those with the winnings send out 1099s to teammates they split with but that's way more complicated.
Post by: charlest on March 01, 2008, 06:14:41 AM
quote:
Every shot you throw changes the lane pattern, so the choice is between trying to do it in a logical way or a haphazard way. We choose to do it logically, though we have been wrong in our gameplan at least once.
That's situational rationalization or situational ethics.
It's still wrong and it's still cheating, no matter what twist you put on it. Strider was trying to be polite; I am not. It's cheating. period. end of story.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 01, 2008, 06:59:39 AM
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: lefty50 on March 01, 2008, 07:22:15 AM
It was fascinating to read. Wish I could find it again.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature...
Post by: Bill Thomas on March 01, 2008, 12:34:43 PM
Post by: charlest on March 01, 2008, 05:11:45 PM
quote:
I would love to hear an explanation of why it is cheating.
How "slow" are you?
Because it's altering the applied oil pattern to make it different AND EASIER from everybody else's on all the other lanes. You might as well have take a 10" mop soaked in acetone or lane stripper and wipe it down the the first 10 boards of either side of the lanes. The results are the same: you get an easy shot and everybody else plays the designed pattern.
Upon re-edit, your profile says you're "Tournament Manager - Challenging Conditions Shootout". So when people change your pattern, doesn't it change the scoring possibilities for them, countering any oil pattern you applied?
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Edited on 3/1/2008 6:16 PM
Post by: charlest on March 01, 2008, 05:12:57 PM
quote:
It is not cheating as long as dull balls are legal. However it doesn't take anything real drastic to do it. What you really need is 10 guys who are all comfortable playing the area you are trying to open up;
I am surprised at you, Mr. Hanson. Like many political situations, it's not illegal; it's just unethical and immoral.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: charlest on March 01, 2008, 05:23:29 PM
Both riggs and Bill Thomas are the first ones to comdemn a guy in another thread for WHATTHEY VIEW AS SANDBAGGING, yet they look on it as totally appropriate to bend the rules their way by altering the oil apptern for their benefit.
No, there's no difference in the bottom line for both scenarios. Both are still cheating by altering the situation for your own scoring enhancement.
Take off your blinders, guys. See the real world. Stop being "politicians"!
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: themagician on March 01, 2008, 05:29:30 PM
quote:
This is absolutely hysterical!
Both riggs and Bill Thomas are the first ones to comdemn a guy in another thread for WHATTHEY VIEW AS SANDBAGGING, yet they look on it as totally appropriate to bend the rules their way by altering the oil apptern for their benefit.
No, there's no difference in the bottom line for both scenarios. Both are still cheating by altering the situation for your own scoring enhancement.
Take off your blinders, guys. See the real world. Stop being "politicians"!
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
I see your standing on this charlest, but I really don't see how it is cheating. As it has been stated, no matter what you do you change the pattern every time you throw the ball. It may be minorly but it does change. I just think that its part of the game, you can't tell people you can't play X part of the lane because that will lead to it breaking down in beneficial way.
But these are just my views.
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http://www.absolutebowling.com NO TROLLS
Post by: Rileybowler on March 01, 2008, 05:38:12 PM
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Carl
Post by: lefty50 on March 01, 2008, 07:57:55 PM
JEEZ.....
If 5 right handers dig a trench to carve out a path in the oil and the one poor lefty can't get a ball to turn a corner, then yes, I think that's cheating by virtue of gaining an unfair advantage.
And before I hear from the lame righties who complain the left is easy, the issue here is not being able to turn the corner, in which case the poor guy skating on ice is screwed and doesn't even get to enjoy it.
'Nuff said.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature...
Post by: renoatpikeville on March 01, 2008, 08:05:19 PM
quote:quote:
Every shot you throw changes the lane pattern, so the choice is between trying to do it in a logical way or a haphazard way. We choose to do it logically, though we have been wrong in our gameplan at least once.
That's situational rationalization or situational ethics.
It's still wrong and it's still cheating, no matter what twist you put on it. Strider was trying to be polite; I am not. It's cheating. period. end of story.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Well if its cheating than Norm Duke and many others on tour are cheaters...
Get real...it's called strategy.
Edited on 3/1/2008 9:06 PM
Post by: lefty50 on March 01, 2008, 08:17:38 PM
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature...
Post by: renoatpikeville on March 01, 2008, 08:29:15 PM
quote:
Sigh. You're still missing the point... I might even agree that 1-1 it may be a strategy, although many would frown on it. However, 5 doing it on one side vs one on the other... Naw, unfair advantage.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature...
I bowled in college in 05-07 at Pikeville College...at the majority of tournaments we as a team had pre tournament meetings where we decided to all attack the lanes the same...in practice, during competition, match play until we were finished. Most of the better schools did this i.e. WSU, Saginaw, Vincinnes, Fresno St., AZ St. and so on.
We even placed certain bowlers with the same skill set on the same team.
This way we could read our teammates ball reactions and adjust for it rather than being surprised by a split. It promoted communication, trust, and team unity.
It has now become part of competitive bowling at least at the collegiate level.
If anyone thinks this is a form of cheating, then how do you feel about knowing what the shot is before the tournament?
Thanks...just a little vent.
Post by: riggs on March 02, 2008, 06:08:37 AM
EVERY SHOT A BOWLER THROWS CHANGES THE LANE PATTERN!
There is NOTHING anyone can do to change that fact.
When the day comes that someone hopefully invents an oil-less lane surface this unfortunate situation will no longer be with us.
Until then we as bowlers know that whatever we do will alter our environment, which is something we all must take into account in deciding how to play the lanes.
Given that UNDENIABLE FACT bowlers must devise the most logical strategy to deal with how bowling is.
The most logical strategy is to work together instead of against each other when bowling team competition.
Cheating would be if you had a choice to do nothing to your environment and then chose to alter it in some way to benefit you.
I am curious to know what a non-cheating manner would be?
Do all 10 bowlers have to play a different line. Can only 2 or 3 or 4 or ?? play the same line?
Where do you draw the line?
Post by: DanH78 on March 02, 2008, 08:03:44 AM
I don't really have a problem with an entire team getting together saying "Ok, we're going to play between 2nd and 3rd arrow to a break point of 8", as long as they are using their tournament equipment. Although I think that lane assignments should be random so you can't have 10 guys doing it to one pair. What I have the problem with is the guys taking 60 grit equipment to burn a line. Or how about the guys that see their opponent is going to play 1st arrow, while their plan is to play 3rd, so they take their sponge and pipe it up the first arrow to destroy the opponents line. Unfortunately, technology leapfrogged the rules, and I don't we can catch up without throwing 1000's of bowlers into a hissy fit.
Legal? Yes. Ethical? Hardly.
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It IS next year!
Post by: richartm on March 02, 2008, 08:07:46 AM
This is clearly not cheating.
CHEAT
transitive verb
1: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
intransitive verb
1: to practice fraud or trickery
2: to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
There's no deceit, fraud, or rules violation; the strategy is 'out there' for all to discuss, critique, and copy.
Is the practice unethical? That's not quite as straightforward (although it's pretty close, in my opinion). In other sports we applaud the team that works together for a common goal. Is it wrong for a baseball team to come up with a unified approach against an opposing pitcher (lay off the curveball, wait for fastballs)? Baseball also has the sacrifice, where the hitter gives up his chance to get a hit for the betterment of the team. Should all hitters be required to hack away every time?
Was it unethical for the younger, less-experienced US Olympic hockey players in 1980 to "team" up on the superior Soviets? Perhaps each player should have just gone out and done their own thing, and let the chips fall where they may...?
My only question for Riggs is about minors. Is it appropriate for someone who is struggling in Singles to consider "helping" another who is scoring well? Either by getting off his line or trying to improve it?
Post by: richartm on March 02, 2008, 08:12:43 AM
Post by: WrOnGwAy on March 02, 2008, 08:57:24 AM
Post by: mrfish on March 02, 2008, 07:49:06 PM
Anyway, I just had to give my two cents worth. I just find it hard to believe that some of you compare this post to the one about the classified division guy who couldn't have cheated more if someone knocked the pins over for him. Sandbagging is the worst form of cheating in bowling. PERIOD!!
Post by: Rileybowler on March 02, 2008, 08:07:15 PM
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Carl
Post by: riggs on March 02, 2008, 08:08:44 PM
Bigger issue with minors is not every squad being on fresh so not everyone starts with the same pattern. Is it "cheating" if the people in front of one group in minors all play in the same place and make a pair easy, while others play all over and make someone else's pair hard???
Post by: DanH78 on March 03, 2008, 08:13:04 AM
What is fair? In the bagger thread, you talk about how as true sportsmen, we should strive for equity, but in this thread, you basically say you are paying a team of somewhat lesser bowlers to bowl your way so your team can score better. How is that fair?
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It IS next year!
Post by: riggs on March 03, 2008, 08:27:43 AM
The most prestigious part of the USBC Tournament is the Team Event and we take that to another level with our 10-man team concept. We epitomize what it's all about, IMHO - all for one and one for all.
Post by: Strider on March 03, 2008, 08:44:42 AM
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Penn State Proud
Special thanks to Lane#1 for donations to two consecutive Ballreviews Get Togethers.
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Post by: Pinbuster on March 03, 2008, 09:10:30 AM
As long as bowling allows equipment that can quickly alter the oil pattern it is with us, within the rules and is a valid tactic in team play.
However it leads to some controversy like last year when a team request to bowl by themselves so they don’t have to deal with another team not breaking down the lanes as they desire.
I assume the belly flop would be covered under rule 17a unfair tactics but I have wondered that same thing myself. Someone does a Machuga Flop and wipes out most of the oil outside 10 but I don’t know if you could slide 30 feet to get it all.
Post by: Jorge300 on March 03, 2008, 09:12:47 AM
To those that think this is cheating:
Do you watch football? College or Pro doesn't matter. If you look at the offense, what did you see? You saw 11 guys "acting as one" to execute a gameplan in order to improve their chances to win the game. Whether it was to run the ball or pass the ball, the team put together a gameplan practiced it and tried to run it perfection. Same goes for defense. This idea is the same in any team sport, Soccor, Baseball, Basketball, Hockey, Rugby, etc.
So why is that same idea cheating in bowling. In Riggs' case, they get 10 guy to act as one, they all try to throw the ball in the same area to improve their chances of winning. For Riggs' two teams, they make the ultimate sacrifice, to put their team goals ahead of individual goals. In other sports those type of players are celebrated. In this thread they get called cheaters. And for the one individual who said something about paying the other team to do this, the role players like this in baseball and football, they don't do it for free do they? Riggs and others have spent years putting teams together and practicing together in order to give them the best shot at "winning" when the time comes. No one has offered anything more then petty jealousy as to why this should be called cheating.
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Jorge300
Post by: riggs on March 03, 2008, 09:13:20 AM
I agree with you on the PBA format. There are not many who like the way it is out there - too much practice time and not moving pairs each game creates a bad situation. I wrote a column on this for the Ten Pin Journal in Milwaukee. The trouble is the format forces you into doing things that are NOT cheating because there aren't rules against it - you can't really make any because you can't tell people what ball to use and where to throw it - but don't feel "right." But if you want to win you have to manage the pattern. PBA should drastically limit practice and move pairs each game during match play.
USBC also could limit practice but then smart teams would just be doing it when the game started. The reality is a good team(s) with smart bowlers is going to try to play the same area of the lane even if there is NO PRACTICE. That is just smart bowling. You could move pairs each game in team event but logistically that would be a nightmare for USBC and its computers, too. Plus, IMHO, the teamwork involved in cooperating while bowling is something that philosophically should be rewarded - it is a TEAM COMPETITION!!!!
Jorge explains this concept will in his post above - thanks Jorge!
Edited on 3/3/2008 10:15 AM
Post by: Jorge300 on March 03, 2008, 09:16:51 AM
quote:
However it leads to some controversy like last year when a team request to bowl by themselves so they don’t have to deal with another team not breaking down the lanes as they desire.
This was posted before I finalized my prior post. The controversy was around the moving of the team, not the concept of breaking the lanes down. This was the first time I had ever heard of a team being moved for any reason other then a lane malfunction (although as we learned I guess we all could have asked and been granted this "privilege"). I can only assume that changes have been made this year to make sure it doesn't occur again.
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Jorge300
Post by: headwest on March 03, 2008, 11:37:28 AM
Post by: Strapper_Squared on March 03, 2008, 11:39:21 AM
S^2
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"The haddock hits me with a sucker punch. I catch him with a left hook.
He eels over. It was a fluke, but there he was, lying on the deck,
flat as a mackerel, kelpless."
Post by: Jorge300 on March 03, 2008, 01:03:07 PM
quote:
I would venture to say that this is taking advantage of the opportunity.. is it actually cheating? Maybe.. maybe not. I think that we would all agree that its well within the provided rules.. you can't tell someone (or some group) that they can't throw on a certain part of the lane, however, relative to small groups of bowlers (one team or less) who are randomly paired with another team (or placed on a team), its definitely an unfair competitive advantage. Any time money is involved, I think as many steps as possible should be taken to eliminate these advantages. I think that the only way to combat this practice would be to randomly determine lane assignments and physically not allow teams to "work together".
S^2
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+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
"The haddock hits me with a sucker punch. I catch him with a left hook.
He eels over. It was a fluke, but there he was, lying on the deck,
flat as a mackerel, kelpless."
I think this is a great idea, why not give the average Joe Bowler another reason to not come to the USBC National tournament. As we can see by the number of entrants this year (the second largest non-Reno field ever, I believe), the tournament is doing well. But how many teams are gonna forgo traveling across the country if we tell them you can't bowl on the same pair with your other 5 friends who came along with you. In fact Team A is on lane 2 and Team B is on lane 40 so you can't even see or talk to one another.
C'mon people, this is getting ridiculous. You people act like you could get any 5 guys from a scratch league, put them together, tell them to play the lanes the same and they are gonna shoot 3300. The teams that are successful at this are so for 2 reasons: 1) They are great bowlers. Looks at Riggs description of their second team. Looks at Riggs' resume. These guys are already some of the best bowlers around. 2) They work at bowling as a team. They practice together, working together sharing information, in essence being a team.
The only unfair advantage they have is that they have worked their tails off to be better then 90% of us and have worked to be one cohesive unit. And last I checked, that was what you were supposed to do. So are you complaining, if you stopped and took the time you spent crying on here and used it to practice on the lanes with your teammates, maybe you could do as well as Riggs and his team do.
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Jorge300
Post by: thirtyclean on March 03, 2008, 01:23:35 PM
What if you have two lefties on your team ? Are they going to swith hands and wear a line in ? Not all of us have the luxury of bowling with guys that have won Eagles and are big shooters. If these guys are so good and accurate, why do they need an area worn in ? I know guys that go down to the Nationals and whack them without that luxury. But, It is not cheating, its just taking advantage of a team working together. The team I go down with, we usually dont know the other team on our pair. If these guys have 10 guys working together, I can see a huge advantage. Some bowlers dont have the luxury of also bringing a sanded ball just for that purpose. I do carry one of these in the trunk, a particle at 400 grit to wear a line in, sometimes in league.
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Thirtyclean (Well maybe 29, or 28, most of
the times !)
Post by: thirtyclean on March 03, 2008, 02:28:39 PM
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Thirtyclean (Well maybe 29, or 28, most of
the times !)
Post by: Jorge300 on March 03, 2008, 02:35:24 PM
quote:
Jorge300,
What if you have two lefties on your team ? Are they going to swith hands and wear a line in ? Not all of us have the luxury of bowling with guys that have won Eagles and are big shooters. If these guys are so good and accurate, why do they need an area worn in ? I know guys that go down to the Nationals and whack them without that luxury. But, It is not cheating, its just taking advantage of a team working together. The team I go down with, we usually dont know the other team on our pair. If these guys have 10 guys working together, I can see a huge advantage. Some bowlers dont have the luxury of also bringing a sanded ball just for that purpose. I do carry one of these in the trunk, a particle at 400 grit to wear a line in, sometimes in league.
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Thirtyclean (Well maybe 29, or 28, most of
the times !)
Dude, are you really this stupid....you complain about gus doing it at Nationals, where there is prestige and good chunk of money available if you win, yet you say you do it in your chump chang league?!? Get real.
If there are two lefties and 3 righties, you have it even better then Riggs' team. The lefties play the same spot, the righties play the same spot and guess what, not only do you break down a line, you don't over dry it out to where you have to start making major moves. You break it down just enough and you only have to move a few boards.
And guess what, if you play the lanes smart like this, you don't need a team of eagle winners to do good, that's the whole point. No wonder we are losing members left and right....people complain and others cheaters for {gasp} working together as a team. Unreal!
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Jorge300
Post by: headwest on March 03, 2008, 02:36:29 PM
quote:I think everyone looks forward to the Riggs report and I think his team would still be one of the favorites to win a team title but it's still an advantage to have two teams work together.I for one also know the team I bowl with has no real chance ,though last year we cashed for the first time,but I still believe the playing field should be level.I think the USBC still defines a team as being five players not ten.
I can't believe the amount of jealousy I am reading on this board. I bowl with a bunch of friends who all avg. 215 and up on house shots. Do i believe I will ever win a team title? NO. We don't practice together, we all play different parts of the lane, and are not real consistent. What Riggs and his teams do is what all real good teams should do. Its teamwork and everyone can do it if they choose to.
I guess for you people complaining, you want them to reoil the lanes after every shot. That would make it as fair as possible. Of course it would take years to complete the tournament, but what does that matter as long as it is fair.
As I do every year I look forward to the Riggs report so I can get a look as to what part of the lane I should at least try to play. Good luck Riggs, hope you win the team title again. Just try to keep singles within shooting distance so I feel like I have a chance.
Post by: Jorge300 on March 03, 2008, 02:43:43 PM
quote:
It's not jealousy, but the fact that not all of us have the same luxury of that team concept. Sure I would like to recruit Norm Duke, Danny Wiseman, Walter Ray Williams, and a Brian Voss. These are guys that I emulate, but not all of my teamates throw similar. This is all I am going to say, its a great concept, its not cheating, and the bowlers still must make good shots. You can be a great bowler, but dont have the luxury of bowling with great teamates !
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Thirtyclean (Well maybe 29, or 28, most of
the times !)
See then it's your choice. Do you think Riggs' team magically appeared one day?!? If you want a better then 50-50 chance at winning the team title, then you have to build a team. It could take a year or two or maybe longer to do it. I don't bowl with a team like Riggs', why? Cause I like bowling with my friends from back where I grew up. This way I get to see them at least once a year. Do we have good shot at winning, no. Could we win if we all got hot, yes. And to me the fun had bowling with this group outweighs the difference. I do well in the brackets and make a little in the actual tournament. You don't need PBA members to make this work, that's the problem with your thinking. You just need 5-10 guys whose styles are close enough that they can all play the same basic area. You don't need sandblasted equipment, you don't need eagles, all you need is people willing to put aside personal gain for the betterment of the team as whole. Unfortunately, in bowling, that is hard to come by.
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Jorge300
Post by: srlunatic on March 03, 2008, 02:53:43 PM
For one....breaking the shot down does not mean you have bumper bowling for 3 games. You still have to be very accurate, very consistant, and the "broken" shot only lasts for a little bit so you have to make adjustments.
You still have to execute, you still have to compete, and you still have to have a ton of luck to get to the top of the board...and that is if you are on a seriously good team.
For most of us.....go...have fun....shoot some decent numbers...hope you can put together a great team series....and have fun!
As for cheating....since EVERYONE could do this if they wish....I don't see how this could be cheating...
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The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~John Kenneth Galbraith
The Christian Right is neither.
The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it. ~P.J. O'Rourke
Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. ~John Stuard Mill
Post by: Ahhbach on March 03, 2008, 03:43:53 PM
Ahh
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'I'm Partial to the Fugue' - Radar O'Reilly
Post by: riggs on March 03, 2008, 05:41:46 PM
I was lucky enough to be picked up in 1983-84 by what might have been the greatest 10-man ABC group in history - the Kendor/Faball group organized by Hall of Famer Rich Wonders. All 10 guys in that group won eagles, many of us multiple eagles. Much of who I am as a bowler came from what I learned with them. That group was my model for what I've done - 10 friends and good bowlers who believe in the concept of TEAM.
We were doing the same thing in the 1980s - working to play a similar area together - as my group does now. Things just didn't happen as fast and there wasn't the Internet for info to spread.
Also, one thing you all have to remember is that sometimes working together can be a detriment. 1) You can play the wrong part of the lane to start, as we have once and maybe twice. 2) You can "overmanage" your environment and break them down TOO much so they get too wet/dry in a spot, as we did last year, I think.
I would not have any problem with random draw. Do that and we would separate our teams into the 2:30 and 8:30 squads on the same day and take a bigger whack at brackets (as some good teams do now). And, unless we got a bunch of brutal shimwreckers to cross with, I think we'd do just fine.
However, it would take away some of the camaraderie and fun we have, which would be a big negative. And, as others pointed out, there are TONS and TONS of teams who would be pissed off because they couldn't bowl with their friends. Probably would cost some entries.
Post by: riggs on March 03, 2008, 05:44:31 PM
Openness = fairness.
PERIOD.
Post by: DanH78 on March 03, 2008, 08:49:16 PM
quote:
Lesser bowlers? LOL! Three of our No. 2 team have Eagles, a fourth has a second and third place finish, and the fifth has a third place finish! And we've all been friends and bowled together for years.
The most prestigious part of the USBC Tournament is the Team Event and we take that to another level with our 10-man team concept. We epitomize what it's all about, IMHO - all for one and one for all.
Sorry, but when you make a statement like this
quote:
And, yes, my team is typically giving up some money to our other team in splitting brackets, but we know having them work with us helps us, and they are a good team that in some years has bowled as well as us.
It makes them sound like they are not as good as you.
And that doesn't change my question, how is paying another team to bowl your way, in order to help your team score higher, fair?
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It IS next year!
Post by: Joebowler98 on March 03, 2008, 09:46:11 PM
I didn't know what a can of worms i opened up. I really didn't mean to start such a debate. I wasn't talking about taking 60 grit sanded balls and "wrecking" the shot. I appreciate the information provided by all. I will have to watch Riggs and his guys bowl this year. My team bowls Sat. 4-5 2:30 pm and Minors at 9:20 am Sun. Maybe i can learn as much as i did last year from my session with Mike at lane 81. My ave has went from 203 to 214. He fixed many holes in my swing. Now just need to learn more about reading lane transitions on a flat pattern. (Maybe my next thread). Thanks to all.
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There's always' hope as long as there is one more ball in the bag!
Post by: Jorge300 on March 04, 2008, 06:55:05 AM
quote:
I believe to keep this tournament fair to all is to have no practice on the lanes before you bowl...of course this will not ever happen the reason is because we need to warm up and find a shot where the condition tells us to play and THAT is the reason for the pre tournament warm up... it is to WARM UP. If you can manipulate the shot its not the shot that everyone plays on and its not the shot the Tournament intended either.
Anyway just my two cents, this is what I love about this forum.
PS I never bowled the tourney and always wanted to but now...not so much.
Do you bowl any leagues?!?
If tha answer is yes, then guess what, the practice before league is manipulating the shot. As Riggs has said, everytime a ball is thrown down the lane it changes the shot. This was true in 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, and today. The balls of today just happen to change the shot quicker then in the past. Taken into account that the change is going to happen, all Riggs' team is doing is trying to make the change happen in a calculated way instead of random. It is smart thinking.
And the releasing the pattern debate....that is also old. Unless you have the exact lane surface, the exact oil, and the exact center conditions (altitude, humidity, air temp, etc) the shot you practice on will be different then the shot you see at the actual tournament. Add on top of that how skilled your house is a putting out that shot (i.e programing the machine or actually setting the shims for the older ones). I have tried getting a house to put out the shot before, and it has hurt me more then helped me. This year one house in my area put out the shot and one of the guys who practiced on it and just got back said the shot here was the same as Nationals, after about 2 games were bowled on it. So this isn't a real advantage to anyone, IMHO.
And lastly, Tony, you say you don't want to go to Nationals...all I have to say is your loss. Whether I have shot 1900 or 1600 (and I have done both believe me) I have always had a good time. Plus there are many side tournaments to bowl in that can add to the experience and help improve your game as well. I always hit the BJI, and now am sold on the BTM (especially after a good finish a few years back paid for my son's baby furniture, lol), and this year they have brought back the Sports Challenge as well. Plus I get to see cities/areas of the country I might otherwise never get to. Like this year we are driving from East Texas out and stopping at Roswell to see that sleepy little town where the UFO craze started from.
Jorge300
Edited on 3/4/2008 8:01 AM
Post by: Monster Pike on March 04, 2008, 09:31:56 AM
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"The last time I saw a face like that, it had a hook in it's mouth." Rodney Dangerfield
Edited on 3/4/2008 10:32 AM
Post by: riggs on March 04, 2008, 11:08:43 AM
quote:
quote:
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Lesser bowlers? LOL! Three of our No. 2 team have Eagles, a fourth has a second and third place finish, and the fifth has a third place finish! And we've all been friends and bowled together for years.
The most prestigious part of the USBC Tournament is the Team Event and we take that to another level with our 10-man team concept. We epitomize what it's all about, IMHO - all for one and one for all.
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Sorry, but when you make a statement like this
quote:
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And, yes, my team is typically giving up some money to our other team in splitting brackets, but we know having them work with us helps us, and they are a good team that in some years has bowled as well as us.
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It makes them sound like they are not as good as you.
And that doesn't change my question, how is paying another team to bowl your way, in order to help your team score higher, fair?
Sigh.
Dan, You make it sound like they are a bunch of hatchet murders who we offer half our side action to so they'll bowl completely differently than they otherwise would. I'm not arguing that they are AS GOOD as us. Speaking frankly, we have some of the very best bowlers in the country - or at least we once were LOL! - on our team. Our second team also is VERY good - probably better than 99.9 percent of the teams that bowl each year, as their records have shown.
So THEY ARE VERY GOOD BUT NOT AS GOOD AS US. Is that clear enough for you? Doesn't mean they might not beat us, though. Think in 2004 we only beat them by one pin when we both moved into the top 10 the night we bowled.
We are not "paying them" to do anything. Together we use a concept that encourages ALL OF US TO WORK TOGETHER FOR THE COMMON GOOD. What we do helps ALL 10 OF US score higher. It is NOT a situation where they bowl dramatically outside their comfort zone so we can bowl good - we're fairly old so none of us are what would be called crankers so whether we had a game plan or not we'd probably end up playing the same part of the lane anyway. One of our 10 guys throws it a little slower and hooks it a little more and might be out of his comfort zone some years when we start, but his overall results likely are higher for the team event than they'd be if he immediately started deep - he has a tendency to go 180-220-250 or something like that, not that that is unique at Nationals. He knows this and cooperates because he knows it benefits him.
What part of TEAMWORK do you not understand?
Or perhaps the better question is, when did TEAMWORK become unfair in your mind?
All 10 of us (usually) benefit from what we do in many ways, from not shimwrecking each other to splitting the side action to having fun together.
As I said before, USBC can go to random drawing for teams and I have a feeling we'll do just fine whoever we bowl with. But we'd have less fun and USBC would face a lot of pissed off bowlers who wouldn't get to bowl with their buddies.
Post by: DanH78 on March 04, 2008, 12:41:54 PM
quote:
Sigh.
Dan, You make it sound like they are a bunch of hatchet murders who we offer half our side action to so they'll bowl completely differently than they otherwise would. I'm not arguing that they are AS GOOD as us. Speaking frankly, we have some of the very best bowlers in the country - or at least we once were LOL! - on our team. Our second team also is VERY good - probably better than 99.9 percent of the teams that bowl each year, as their records have shown.
So THEY ARE VERY GOOD BUT NOT AS GOOD AS US. Is that clear enough for you? Doesn't mean they might not beat us, though. Think in 2004 we only beat them by one pin when we both moved into the top 10 the night we bowled.
We are not "paying them" to do anything. Together we use a concept that encourages ALL OF US TO WORK TOGETHER FOR THE COMMON GOOD. What we do helps ALL 10 OF US score higher. It is NOT a situation where they bowl dramatically outside their comfort zone so we can bowl good - we're fairly old so none of us are what would be called crankers so whether we had a game plan or not we'd probably end up playing the same part of the lane anyway. One of our 10 guys throws it a little slower and hooks it a little more and might be out of his comfort zone some years when we start, but his overall results likely are higher for the team event than they'd be if he immediately started deep - he has a tendency to go 180-220-250 or something like that, not that that is unique at Nationals. He knows this and cooperates because he knows it benefits him.
What part of TEAMWORK do you not understand?
Or perhaps the better question is, when did TEAMWORK become unfair in your mind?
All 10 of us (usually) benefit from what we do in many ways, from not shimwrecking each other to splitting the side action to having fun together.
As I said before, USBC can go to random drawing for teams and I have a feeling we'll do just fine whoever we bowl with. But we'd have less fun and USBC would face a lot of pissed off bowlers who wouldn't get to bowl with their buddies.
Teamwork isn't unfair, however, I view a Team as 5 bowlers. What part of that don't YOU understand? Last time I checked they give out awards in the team event for the 5 bowlers that bowl together, not the 10, 20 or 50. When they start giving out awards for the best pair of lanes or the best squad, then the definition will change. I've said before that I have no problem with 5 guys getting together and using the same strategy.
Does this look familiar?
Division Breakdown and Eligibility
The USBC Open Championships consists of team, doubles, singles, optional all-events and a Team All-Events category. There are two divisions, and the division for which you are eligible is based on your average. To determine your division, see the following information:
Classified Team- Five USBC members whose combined average does not exceed 900.
Classified Doubles- Combined average does not exceed 360.
Classified Singles/All-Events- Average does not exceed 180.
Regular Team- Five USBC members whose combined average is above 900.
Regular Doubles- Combined average above 360.
Regular Singles/All-Events- Average above 180.
It works out that you all play the lane similar, until one guy gets lost and wants to move, but he can't because then he'd either get kicked off the team next year or wouldn't get his cut of the side pots/brackets. To me that sounds like you're paying them to play the lanes a certain way.
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It IS next year!
Post by: riggs on March 04, 2008, 07:11:49 PM
As I said, if you can persuade USBC to change the arrangement we will be happy to go and do our best, splitting our teams on different squads to go for more side $$$ and hoping to get the "right" teams with us ... just like we hope to have the right folks in front of us in minors. If it's random team pairing then we might have to consider a straight payment system to get them to conform to our gameplan!!
Whatever USBC does I have a hunch our teams are going to do just fine.
And seriously, I believe you'd be wasting your time with USBC on this one since they'd have so many teams so mad if they said they couldn't bowl together.
Post by: iknowiamright on March 10, 2008, 11:06:09 AM
Post by: riggs on March 10, 2008, 09:26:35 PM
I almost never go below 1,000 - never works for my rev rate and ball speed, although sometimes I will hand touch a 1,000 ball with a 500 pad on, for example, a flooded shark. I NEVER use a "shimwreck only" ball as some PBA guys do. These are often like 180 and pretty comical. They are ONLY for managing the environment. Thing is, when I tried one once I couldn't get it where you need to get it - even on a flood it hit the lane and went left of where I wanted which is BAD! 1,000 is fine for me.
Post by: Jorge300 on March 11, 2008, 08:22:18 AM
As far as limiting practice, I think that would work fine for the PBA, no need for 1 hour of practice before TV, but at Nationals, even with everyone just throwing one ball, with 10 guys on a pair, you only get maybe 4-5 shots. Now, I'm not campaigning for more time or anything, just stating the facts, but I also don't think it would be fair to take any time away from where it is now.
Just my .02
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Jorge300
Post by: riggs on March 11, 2008, 09:36:51 AM
And if I threw 19 mph I would use 500 at times too!
Post by: butch300 on March 13, 2008, 05:17:03 AM
You can't win with people that don't understand the concept of a "TEAM"
Most of the people on here, including myself, will never win an Eagle, but we are the first ones to ask...
Hey Riggs, what do you think about BLAH BLAH BLAH...or....
Hey Riggs, how should I attack the lanes at Nationals BLAH BLAH BLAH....
You know what you should do Riggs..NOTHING!
Don't tell people your secrets about winning Eagles.
I know a few guys that were on top of the leader board just last week that said they would NOT tell any one how they played the lanes.
Why should they do all the hard work for others.
All they are doing is telling people how to beat their scores, and that wouldn't make any sense at all.
So if I were you, I would say to hell with everyone on these boards.
Talk to them and give them advice about your equipment company, but from now on, don't tell them about what ball and surface you used while at Nationals.
If they want to know how to play them, tell them to get there early and sit behind someone that is hitting them pretty good and watch their reactions.
Good luck at Nationals!
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"If you're scared, say you're scared!"
Kenny = W.O.A.E.
www.buildanarsenal.com
www.allbowling.com
Post by: riggs on March 13, 2008, 10:32:38 AM
I feel that in providing help in any area - balls, lane conditions, etc. - to other bowlers I am honoring Darold and honoring the sport.
In addition, I am a firm believer in openness and honesty in things like posting lane conditions and sharing information goes along with that, IMHO.
Believe me, when you win an Eagle sharing that info it is a lot sweeter because you know you did it on your abilities and the abilities of your teammates NOT any "secrets" you might have.
And besides how we play the lanes may not be the right way for everyone else so someone who takes such info and goes in with a closed mind may end up hurting themselves.
Edited on 3/13/2008 10:34 AM
Post by: Platinum Bowler on March 13, 2008, 06:58:24 PM
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B-Car
Post by: CHawk15 on March 13, 2008, 07:58:14 PM
Post by: Joebowler98 on March 27, 2008, 03:56:33 PM
http://www.bowlingball.com/info/nl_1206634770_YpLYGZ7SYP0GpeQCFlf6V98zA1aJiB.html
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A FOOL AND HIS MONEY CAN THROW ONE HELL OF A PARTY!
Post by: riggs on March 27, 2008, 04:24:25 PM
******************
If you missed last season's Denny's PBA World Championship you missed one of the all-time best blow-ups in PBA history.
Brian Voss memorably lost his composure in losing to Chris Loschetter, at one point grabbing a camera and exclaiming, "Ban sanding bowling balls!" although his exact words were not clear at the time.
Voss's actions caused an uproar on the PBA message boards, with some questioning his sportsmanship.
Voss answered by explaining that Loschetter had rolled a sanded ball during most of practice up 7-9 boards toward the 3-pin, not even trying to hit the pocket. When the show started, Loschetter, who throws a much bigger hook than Voss's normal style, moved in and swung his shot toward that dried out area.
"I don't agree with this," Voss wrote. "Unfortunately, there's no rule to prevent it. . . . Nothing against him, just the rules that allow integrity to be destroyed."
The incident brought to the forefront a long-simmering issue that comes up in regional competition as well.
Is it cheating to try to "set up" a lane? Does it make a difference if you do it to make your shot easier or your opponent's shot harder?
Clearly, it is not cheating, since there's no rule defining practice. And it would be almost impossible to craft one – who is going to be the judge, and what about spare shots and changing lines and balls?
But is it ethical?
My aim when I compete is to win while playing within the rules. So if the rules allow me to do something that can help me win, I do it.
I have rolled shots with the aim of "setting up" a lane – usually to help my line and once to hurt an opponents.
"Defense" is rare because two players usually play similar lines, but I did it against close friend Jeff Carter in 2004-05 where I was playing an outside line and he was playing an inside line. He was crushing me for the second straight game in a best 3-of-5 match. So for the last few frames of the second game I went in to his area with my most sanded ball and threw shots that dried up that area.
He then struggled the next two games and I tied the match before he finally made a major adjustment the fifth game and shot a huge game to win the match.
Without that "defense" I probably would have lost in three straight games.
Did I have mixed emotions? Sure. (Carter had no problem with what I did.)
But what really bothered me is that the rules put me in that situation.
The PBA Tour recently changed the practice rules in an effort to prevent setting up a lane.
Prior to the change, players had 15 minutes of practice on their match play pair. That has been cut to just five minutes – so long as open pairs are available for players to loosen up before the official practice on their pairs.
While 15 minutes is plenty of time to use a sanded ball to dry up an area of the lane with shot after shot – or a plastic ball to carry oil down in a certain way -- five is problematic.
The five-minute rule – which regionals will use when extra lanes are available – is a good start, but to completely eliminate "setting up" a lane, I believe the PBA should adopt Pete Weber's oft-stated position and bring back moving pairs every game during match play – just as it was done during the old round-robin format.
Then you wouldn't be able to sacrifice a game in an effort to win the next one by playing "defense" as I did against Carter.
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on March 27, 2008, 04:40:10 PM
btw, good luck @ YE this weekend.
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The task ahead of us is never as great as the power behind us.
Me (http://"http://www.myspace.com/root4d20car")
MTIXE
Charter member of the Cartel for Eradication of Avenging Unicorns
Post by: Joebowler98 on March 27, 2008, 05:08:25 PM
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A FOOL AND HIS MONEY CAN THROW ONE HELL OF A PARTY!
Post by: charlest on March 27, 2008, 05:52:17 PM
Thus passes bowling integrity, right down the drain.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on March 27, 2008, 06:15:22 PM
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The task ahead of us is never as great as the power behind us.
Me (http://"http://www.myspace.com/root4d20car")
MTIXE
Charter member of the Cartel for Eradication of Avenging Unicorns
Post by: charlest on March 27, 2008, 06:36:26 PM
quote:
Is a pitcher not allowed to scuff a baseball or dig an area on the mound to push off of? Do fielders apply quarts of Glovolium to make the glove softer? Pine tar? To a certain length, it's ok, right? Tennis players manipulate the tension in their strings to fit their game. Defensive linemen wear skin tight uniforms to make it toughter for linemen to grab them on every play. These are all tried and true tactics that create an advantage to a particular player or team. And, every one of them, much like burning in a shot, completely legal.
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The task ahead of us is never as great as the power behind us.
Me (http://"http://www.myspace.com/root4d20car")
MTIXE
Charter member of the Cartel for Eradication of Avenging Unicorns
Spoken like a true politician. Legal is often not ethical, nor moral, yet still within the TECHNICAL rules. It makes them no less unethical.
Read "the spirit of the law, vs the letter of the law." again!
PS "myspace"? Really, are you still 12 years old?
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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Post by: themachine300 on March 27, 2008, 07:44:00 PM
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www.bowlingsolutions.com
Move left, hook it more.....
Tommy Jones is a Gamecock fan...are you???
We shall now refer a 4-bagger as a hambone...Mark it down the revolution has started!
Post by: riggs on March 28, 2008, 08:47:46 AM
Joebowler98, come up and tap me on the shoulder (or knock me over the head!) and say hi.
CharlesT, I hope you realize in reading what I wrote that you and I are pretty much on the same page.
The powers that be at the PBA have decided that some things are more important than the purest integrity of the game ... i.e. they want matches to stay on a pair so fans can congregate where they want to watch their favorites, etc., and they apparently want managing the environment to be a big part of the game. I do admit it is a challenge that PBA players are forced to master to compete, but I think most of us would prefer that it be a far lesser part of the competition. But when you're trying to make a living you do what you have to within the rules, even if you wish the rules were different. A lot of the purest integrity of the PBA format went out the window they went from Round Robin Match Play to brackets. At least with the stepladder on the TV show you had the excuse that it was to produce something appealing to TV, which is necessary for a Pro Tour.
As for the USBC, you could have no practice balls and it wouldn't end the managing the environment situation. As I've said, we were doing it 25 years ago because it just just makes sense for everyone to play the same area on the lane. Bqall technology just makes it happen faster now. And there is no choice of whether to change your environment or not - EVERY SHOT changes it. The choice is a rational manner or a haphazard manner.
Edited on 3/28/2008 8:48 AM
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 28, 2008, 09:08:35 AM
quote:In sports, the "spirit" of the law be damned. You do what you have to do to win as long as it goes by the letter of the law. If you don't, someone else will and you will lose! "Ethics" is too gray of an area to enforce when reading a rulebook.
Read "the spirit of the law, vs the letter of the law." again!
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on March 30, 2008, 10:04:11 AM
quote:quote:
Is a pitcher not allowed to scuff a baseball or dig an area on the mound to push off of? Do fielders apply quarts of Glovolium to make the glove softer? Pine tar? To a certain length, it's ok, right? Tennis players manipulate the tension in their strings to fit their game. Defensive linemen wear skin tight uniforms to make it toughter for linemen to grab them on every play. These are all tried and true tactics that create an advantage to a particular player or team. And, every one of them, much like burning in a shot, completely legal.
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The task ahead of us is never as great as the power behind us.
Me (http://"http://www.myspace.com/root4d20car")
MTIXE
Charter member of the Cartel for Eradication of Avenging Unicorns
Spoken like a true politician. Legal is often not ethical, nor moral, yet still within the TECHNICAL rules. It makes them no less unethical.
Read "the spirit of the law, vs the letter of the law." again!
PS "myspace"? Really, are you still 12 years old?
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Try, if you will, to liken this to plaing blackjack. After a pre-determined number of "factor cards" have been exhausted, it's customary to adjust your betting strategies because the house advantage has been dramatically reduced. Legal? Absolutely. Unethical? I'll allow for a higher power to clarify that.
FWIW, the average age of the friends on my myspace.com page far exceed the 12 year old mentality you claim is necessary to hang out there, including many folks from this site. Family, friends, pro-bowlers, NASCAR racers, college friends, and patrons. The possibilities are endless. It appears that, for you, myspace pertains the the vast area between your ears. It's not why I'm there. You're wrong about that.
That makes you two-for-two on this thread.
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The task ahead of us is never as great as the power behind us.
Me (http://"http://www.myspace.com/root4d20car")
MTIXE
Charter member of the Cartel for Eradication of Avenging Unicorns
Post by: tenpin477 on April 06, 2008, 09:47:47 PM
Even if they did make a rule banning the deliberate breakdown of an oil pattern, its impossible to prove. "Why were you throwing an extremely dull ball for the first 8 minutes of practice, and then switched to a normal shot?" Answer "I wanted to see how it would react." You can't prove he was deliberately trying to break down the shot.
As long the bowling ball you are throwing is legal, then theres nothing illegal or unethical about deliberately breaking down an oil pattern. Theres nothing unethical about deliberately breaking down an opponent's line with a 60 grit bowling ball either. Its good strategy if you have the ability to pull it off, plain and simple.
Post by: bowlitup on April 07, 2008, 06:16:51 AM
And since it's not unfair...how can it be un-ethical?
And the argument that "I don't have a 60 grit ball to throw" is no good.
Anyone can buy any ball, sand it to any grit, and throw it anywhere they want.
I don't think I need a 60 grit ball. That's a bit ridiculous in my opinion. However, i'd use one if I thought I needed to.
How can this practice be called 'cheating' or 'un-ethical' if every participant is allowed to do it?
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Ben
Quit Crying and Keep Bowling, or Quit Bowling and Keep Crying.
VIVA LA NACION!!!
Post by: riggs on April 07, 2008, 08:27:01 AM
Post by: Borincano on April 07, 2008, 11:17:48 AM
Post by: Jorge300 on April 07, 2008, 11:46:23 AM
quote:
Why waste your time making a shot if you know how to bowl. If you need a specific shot or lane condition to bowl good. Then you are not a bowler. You are a just another common house hack bowler. In other words you a are a mama's boy bowler that is always whining.
You obviously have never bowled on anything other then an easy house shot. Teams like Riggs' and others that win eagles and are consitantly at the top of the leaderboard use this approach. The PBA Pros use this approach, you just don't see it because all the practice happens before the show starts. Calling people like this "mama's boy bowlers" is a joke and shows how little you know about the game.
The truth is, as Riggs has stated in the past, every shot thrown on a lane changes the characteristics of that lane, when there are 10 guys on a pair you choices are A) break them down in a random pattern by having everyone play different areas and hope that the lanes are playable or B) Break them down in an organized fashion by having everyone play around the same area. The best way to higher scores is to choose B.
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Jorge300
Post by: StormNation2 on April 07, 2008, 02:52:26 PM
So, to answer the questions, no none of those ways are illegal or unethical, it is simply to gain a competitive advantage on the other team. In bowling gaining a competitive advantage in practice is not illegal.
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If you are not using Storm, go kick yourself hard!!!
Post by: Borincano on April 07, 2008, 03:28:07 PM
quote:quote:
Why waste your time making a shot if you know how to bowl. If you need a specific shot or lane condition to bowl good. Then you are not a bowler. You are a just another common house hack bowler. In other words you a are a mama's boy bowler that is always whining.
You obviously have never bowled on anything other then an easy house shot. Teams like Riggs' and others that win eagles and are consitantly at the top of the leaderboard use this approach. The PBA Pros use this approach, you just don't see it because all the practice happens before the show starts. Calling people like this "mama's boy bowlers" is a joke and shows how little you know about the game.
The truth is, as Riggs has stated in the past, every shot thrown on a lane changes the characteristics of that lane, when there are 10 guys on a pair you choices are A) break them down in a random pattern by having everyone play different areas and hope that the lanes are playable or B) Break them down in an organized fashion by having everyone play around the same area. The best way to higher scores is to choose B.
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Jorge300
Post by: Grayson on April 08, 2008, 01:34:26 AM
Well it is strategy and might be "ok" to do as described above yet imho it is not right... but right and right is not always the same.
The other advantage I have here is that I play THS... everytwhere.... even the trickier patterns offer a drier outside... sometimes with OOB but never have faced a true flat.
The other thing is that lots of people here play with very few revs.... grinding the oil away for them is only helping them.. No need to do that.
and if the spot is broke... I move in two or three boards and I am back in the pocket... THS...
Sorry folks but all that talk about how to make the game more difficult for the opponent leaves me one question... does it make it easier for you?
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Sebastian Koch
"Have fun and bowl well!" - Grayson
"Some things are made so even idiots won't fail using them.... But I ask what about the genius?" - Grayson
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