Post by: riggs on February 29, 2008, 08:50:59 PM
http://community.bowl.com/forums/t/86647.aspx?PageIndex=1
Post by: nutsforbowling on March 01, 2008, 06:26:03 AM
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The 10 pin is the enemy!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 01, 2008, 06:45:39 AM
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: someguyintucson on March 01, 2008, 09:28:30 AM
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=1&suffix=503
Doesn't it seem appropriate that he bowls in the Shady Hills Scratch league?
Post by: jefftaker2002 on March 01, 2008, 10:53:21 AM
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Visionary Test Staff Member
Glenmore Bowl employee
About 350 RMPs
High Track
17 MPH ( Guestimate )
Post by: Gazoo on March 01, 2008, 11:12:37 AM
Edited on 3/1/2008 12:15 PM
Post by: LuvThatWhiteDot on March 01, 2008, 11:53:05 AM
My teammate Jackie, who used to average 197, took a bullet in the abdomen during a robbery where she worked. Her average now, with a 3 step delivery AND a cane? 157. She shot 595 a couple weeks ago, the highest set she's had since her injury. Does that make her a bagger?
The most ANNOYING thing about this place is how quickly we point out bowlers' supposed bagging without knowing if something happened to the person or if they really are sandbagging.
Oh, and if it bothers you that he's tearing it up in Classified legally or not, start bagging yourselves and crush him within an inch of his life
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White Dot
I'm only as strong as the coffee I drink and the hairspray I use.
www.luvthatwhitedot.bowlspace.com
Edited on 3/1/2008 12:53 PM
Post by: Bill Thomas on March 01, 2008, 12:25:36 PM
Post by: Bill Thomas on March 01, 2008, 12:29:23 PM
Are you aware that Brian Lewis, tournament director, has told someone that there is nothing that can be done because he can't be rerated after bowling? I agree with you that they ought to find ways to DQ these guys but not sure how they can catch them unless someone rats them out, which is something that I highly reccomend be done.
Post by: sevenpin63 on March 01, 2008, 12:50:34 PM
Post by: CPA on March 01, 2008, 01:52:50 PM
One of the leagues I bowl in is a sport league that uses sport, and now, PBA patterns. However it is not sanctioned as a sport league. The bowlers in our league who bowl in our local tournaments are always rerated. I can't speak for other parts of the country, but that is how they handle it in our area.
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USBC Bronze Coach
Post by: someguyintucson on March 01, 2008, 04:47:00 PM
quote:
How do you know this guy wasn't injured and is working his way back to deuce?
My teammate Jackie, who used to average 197, took a bullet in the abdomen during a robbery where she worked. Her average now, with a 3 step delivery AND a cane? 157. She shot 595 a couple weeks ago, the highest set she's had since her injury. Does that make her a bagger?
The most ANNOYING thing about this place is how quickly we point out bowlers' supposed bagging without knowing if something happened to the person or if they really are sandbagging.
Oh, and if it bothers you that he's tearing it up in Classified legally or not, start bagging yourselves and crush him within an inch of his life
I'm not buying it. Look a little closer at the data:
2000-2001 Book Average: 213
2002 USBC Open AE total: 1597 (174.4 avg)
2001-2002 Book Average: 198
2003 USBC Open AE total: 1603 (178.1 avg)
2002-2003 Book Average: 202 (15 games)
2004 USBC Open AE total: 1721 (191.2 avg)
2003-2004 Book Average: 198
2005 USBC Open AE total: 1637 (181.9 avg)
2004-2005 Book Average: 211 (18 games)
2006 USBC Open AE total: 1717 (190.8 avg)
2005-2006 Book Average: 199
2007 USBC Open AE total: 1890 (210 avg)
2006-2007 Book Average: 178
2008 USBC Open AE total: 1887 (209.7 avg)
So this guy's average drops 21 pins in one season, but he has his best overall finish at the USBC Open during the year that his average drops. Then he comes back this year and shoots almost the same AE score without improving at all during his regular league? This doesn't compute at all unless you consider the fact that he could be sandbagging. IMO, this guy should have been rerated into the Regular division based on his USBC Open average of 191.3 since 2002.
Edited on 3/1/2008 5:47 PM
Post by: riggs on March 02, 2008, 06:14:09 AM
BTW, bowling in a league with Sport certifiable conditions and not making it a Sport league should be against USBC rules.
Post by: riggs on March 02, 2008, 06:19:19 AM
"A friend of mine bowls in the same association as this guy and he told me that the individual in question competes in one league and that league is advertised as a 'sport condition' league. He said that the center wouldn't take the steps necessary to make it a USBC sanctioned sport league. Therefore his average sinks and hello handicap and classified division. That's all I know for now. Doesn't seem right for sure."
Post by: sammy the sage on March 02, 2008, 08:11:53 AM
THAt is HYPERCRITICAL...and I call BS...and the reason why bowling WILL NEVER BE an olympic sport...
A bowler has NO control over the lane conditions...the ONLY way to get BETTER is to SEEK out the tougher houses...
In our county alone...can ave...240, 216, 190,..respectively...AND BOWL MY BEST in the 190 house!
The way WE HANDICAP is NOT FAIR...just because the next year one choses not to bowl in the 2 higher scoring house...WELL...
AND this GOES on from county to county...state to state...
BOWL SCRATCH if YOUR GONNA WHINE...that's what I do...
HANDICAPPING/DIVISIONS....there's NO POSSIBLE WAY to make IT FAIR...so DON'T BLAME the bowler...WHO'S trying to GET BETTER...
while the REST of YOU want a CAKE shot...so you can GET YOUR rings...can't HAVE IT both ways!
END OF RANT
Riggs of all people....you know this is true about most bowler's...besides you're too good TO BE WORRIED about what's going on in an unfair classified division...
LIFE ain't FAIR...DEAL W/IT!
Post by: LuvThatWhiteDot on March 02, 2008, 12:28:39 PM
quote:
So this guy's average drops 21 pins in one season, but he has his best overall finish at the USBC Open during the year that his average drops. Then he comes back this year and shoots almost the same AE score without improving at all during his regular league? This doesn't compute at all unless you consider the fact that he could be sandbagging. IMO, this guy should have been rerated into the Regular division based on his USBC Open average of 191.3 since 2002.
It's too bad the USBC couldn't rerate bowlers for the tournament only. But if someone came in for their first year and totally stunk up the place and got put into Classified and came back in year 2 and shot 1800 AE, all Hades would break loose. There's no way to make sure bowlers are competing fairly.
I plan to shoot 850 in singles and just pi$$ everyone off and get it over with
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White Dot
I'm only as strong as the coffee I drink and the hairspray I use.
www.luvthatwhitedot.bowlspace.com
Post by: riggs on March 02, 2008, 08:11:12 PM
Post by: sammy the sage on March 02, 2008, 08:26:29 PM
tell us HOW!
considering the outline/scenerio I laid out!
Post by: riggs on March 02, 2008, 08:40:53 PM
It will never be perfect but it can be a lot closer to fair than doing nothing.
I bowl scratch, as well, so I don't care on a personal level. But I do care about bowling being as fair as possible.
Post by: riggs on March 03, 2008, 06:06:10 AM
1) This guy is the most blatant cheater of all time. He gamed the system and has the USBC somewhat in a corner knowing that they need to find a legally defensible way to DQ him.
2) He is an "accidental" bagger/cheater who didn't realize what he was doing and what might happen.
Stay with me ... think about it: Most "good" baggers go to great lengths to cover what they do, even intentionally bowling bad in tournaments to hold their tournament averages down and cover their tracks. Yet this guy dropped his average a huge amount in one year AND bowled very well in the Regular Division last year. A "good" bagger would have gradually dropped their average, bowled terrible in Regular Division for a couple of years and then crushed the Classified Division. This is just so obvious ... like a criminal leaving fingerprints and DNA and an ID at the crime scene.
I think it's possible this guy might have bowled in this pseduo-Sport league, dropping his average way down, not really realizing what he was doing, perhaps thinking he was just not bowling good. Then he goes and bowls well again at USBC in the Classified Division.
I am NOT saying I believe this but what he did was so obviously blatant as to be stupid, unless he was only interested in gaming the system for one big killing with the belief that USBC could not stop him.
BIG QUESTION: Does this guy have a track record of winning big money in handicap tournaments before this year's USBC. If not, he might be the accidental bagger, not a blatant cheater.
It is important to note that EITHER WAY HE NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH BY USBC.
If he is just an accidental bagger he should step forward and say he is sorry and this is not what he meant to have happen and ask to be put in the Regular Division where his career record shows he clearly belongs.
If he is a blatant cheater USBC needs to find a way to do the right thing. What credibility the organization has in protecting the average bowler is most definitely at stake.
Post by: Pinbuster on March 03, 2008, 09:15:23 AM
It opens the door for cheaters. I seem to remember a few years back the winner of a couple classified events was DQ'd for average falsifying.
The tournament should be about crowning national champions, not who happened to bowl the best with an average under 180.
Post by: agroves on March 03, 2008, 11:58:52 PM
quote:
This is one reason I was against the "classified division".
It opens the door for cheaters. I seem to remember a few years back the winner of a couple classified events was DQ'd for average falsifying.
The tournament should be about crowning national champions, not who happened to bowl the best with an average under 180.
Come on, there has to be a dividing line somewhere. If there wasn't the tournament wouldn't have have the participation.
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Andrew
Post by: riggs on March 04, 2008, 10:46:40 AM
If USBC really wanted to do something beneficial for the average dues paying member it would spend money on THAT!
And USBC officials are well aware of all this stuff and are not happy about the situation. Problem for them is once they let someone bowl without rerating it is not a simple process for them to "fix" the situation. Rule 319 stuff should take care of the guy in second place. Not sure about the first place guy. He might not even bowl other tournaments - again the terms "accidental" bagger.
There are thousands of classified bowlers to check and USBC staff could never check them all.
My prediction is there will be some rules changes regarding drops from Regular to Classified because of this. However, that may be something that requires delegates' approval, which could delay things.
Post by: JONES_E828 on March 04, 2008, 01:29:42 PM
Post by: Atochabsh on March 04, 2008, 01:41:31 PM
quote:
However, that may be something that requires delegates' approval, which could delay things.
I'm afraid you would probably be correct Riggs. Though we do know that when USBC wants something they just do it delegates or no delegates.
We have rerated several bowlers in our assoc. for doing what it appears this guy is doing. We took their results from all the local, state and national tournaments we could find, and created their new average. Had a hearing and then passed the info onto USBC which upheld the rerates.
But every year there's more scams. This year's flavor is using your off hand and establishing an average, then using your good hand in touranments. Since we have a lot of bowlers in our assoc. and a lot of centers, not every bowler is familiar to each of our 180+ secretaries. In a smaller assoc. where everyone knows everyone else, it would be more difficult. Since the membership application card does not say "hand", you can use either one. And since I have never seen a tournament entry form that also asked for hand, how are you going to tell? Within the local assoc. we tend to watch these folks very carefully. But if they go to the next assoc. over and bowl a tournament, we have no way of knowing that. Some of these people bowl 2 to 4 weekends a month, they make a nice supplemental income. Unless the local assoc. keeps an eye on these shenanigans it will keep going on.
Erin
Post by: Rileybowler on March 04, 2008, 01:44:48 PM
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Carl
Post by: someguyintucson on March 04, 2008, 02:20:43 PM
quote:
Riggs aren't you the one who uses ten guys to break down the lanes to gain an advantage, sounds like pot calling kettle black to me , but thats just my way of thinking
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Carl
I'm fairly certain that there is a huge difference between entering a tournament with a "false" average to gain entry into a lower division and bowling as a team to "make a shot" on a pair of lanes. Why not stick to the thread topic and make a comment about how this guy Kistler should be dealt with by the USBC tournament committee?
Post by: riggs on March 04, 2008, 07:03:07 PM
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=190325&ForumID=79&CategoryID=5
Post by: tjj300 on March 04, 2008, 10:36:35 PM
That's classic bagging, if you ask me.
Post by: Atochabsh on March 04, 2008, 10:55:59 PM
Erin
Post by: agroves on March 05, 2008, 12:06:06 AM
If I see a golfer commit a rules violation, I can call into the network and get him DQ'd(not that I would).
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Andrew
Edited on 3/6/2008 2:21 AM
Post by: janderson on March 11, 2008, 02:13:37 PM
quote:
Wonder if this is just one more guy shooting on sport/pba conditions without sanctioning the league as such. I have heard via the grapevine that there is a lot of this going on in recent years. Also, there are bowlers who seek out tough, low scoring houses so as to keep their average lower without sacrificing their talent
I'm guilty of seeking out tougher conditions to learn adjustment/transition/etc, and I've seen my average dip, but I have never and will never take advantage of a handicap system (which the classified division essentially is) simply by not entering handicap tournaments. Perhaps that's why I'll never be accused of cheating.
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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson, the bLowling King : Kill the back row
Post by: janderson on March 11, 2008, 02:21:33 PM
quote:
BTW, bowling in a league with Sport certifiable conditions and not making it a Sport league should be against USBC rules.
While I agree with your reasoning behind this statement, as an organizer of sport and PBA experience leagues, it is hard enough to get a center to host a league (or even 1-day tournament) on something other than the standard house shot, let alone get them to pull tape and fulfill the other requirements to fully sanction as a sport league. Many proprietors see it as too much work, yet it seems necessary.
quote:
Part of the problem is there is no national computerized database of tournament results to fight baggers.
If the USBC demands that the centers pull tape to keep sport leagues from degenerating into free-for-all easy house shots, why can't we as bowlers demand of the USBC a computerized implementation for better tracking of a bowler's performance across all venues? We even pay dues to accomplish things like this. We've had the technology and computing power to achieve this - yes, even with millions of members and games bowled - for more than 10 years.
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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson, the bLowling King : Kill the back row
Post by: janderson on March 11, 2008, 02:26:16 PM
quote:
The tournament officials should have the authority to deal with situations just like this. To say, "well, he has already bowled so there is nothing we can do", is laughable. You wouldn't know he was bagging until he bowled!
The least the USBC could do is take a stance more like:
"We are in the process of reviewing all of the information at hand. We understand how this may appear to be a clear case of cheating. The current rules governing this tournament prevent us from re-rating bowlers after they have completed bowling, but depending upon the results of our investigation, the rules may need to change for next year's competition to promote a more fair and equitable competition for all of our bowlers. Thank you for bringing this to our attention."
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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson, the bLowling King : Kill the back row
Post by: boomtown24 on March 11, 2008, 02:30:02 PM
quote:
Assuming all the facts are true about this guy's average and records, after thinking a lot about this and talking with some others, I now believe there are only two explanations for this.
1) This guy is the most blatant cheater of all time. He gamed the system and has the USBC somewhat in a corner knowing that they need to find a legally defensible way to DQ him.
2) He is an "accidental" bagger/cheater who didn't realize what he was doing and what might happen.
Stay with me ... think about it: Most "good" baggers go to great lengths to cover what they do, even intentionally bowling bad in tournaments to hold their tournament averages down and cover their tracks. Yet this guy dropped his average a huge amount in one year AND bowled very well in the Regular Division last year. A "good" bagger would have gradually dropped their average, bowled terrible in Regular Division for a couple of years and then crushed the Classified Division. This is just so obvious ... like a criminal leaving fingerprints and DNA and an ID at the crime scene.
I think it's possible this guy might have bowled in this pseduo-Sport league, dropping his average way down, not really realizing what he was doing, perhaps thinking he was just not bowling good. Then he goes and bowls well again at USBC in the Classified Division.
I am NOT saying I believe this but what he did was so obviously blatant as to be stupid, unless he was only interested in gaming the system for one big killing with the belief that USBC could not stop him.
BIG QUESTION: Does this guy have a track record of winning big money in handicap tournaments before this year's USBC. If not, he might be the accidental bagger, not a blatant cheater.
It is important to note that EITHER WAY HE NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH BY USBC.
If he is just an accidental bagger he should step forward and say he is sorry and this is not what he meant to have happen and ask to be put in the Regular Division where his career record shows he clearly belongs.
If he is a blatant cheater USBC needs to find a way to do the right thing. What credibility the organization has in protecting the average bowler is most definitely at stake.
Riggs, have you ever been to Marion IN? Believe me it explains alot!
This could be a sport league that just wasn't sanctioned as one. As a member of the local assn. he should know the rules regarding this.
I apologize for my stance if indeed there was a legit cause for his drop in average.
Post by: riggs on March 11, 2008, 03:15:14 PM
Post by: riggs on March 11, 2008, 03:21:58 PM
http://www.bowlingfordumdums.com/page2.html
Post by: chatnboy on March 12, 2008, 11:58:05 PM
Post by: riggs on March 13, 2008, 10:36:12 AM
Post by: KDawg77 on March 13, 2008, 01:44:16 PM
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Ken
Sometimes you are the cheetah and sometimes you are the stick...
Videos at http://www.putfile.come/k-dawg77
http://www.myspace.com/lefthandedhammerpride
http://khlthe2nd.bowlspace.com
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Post by: riggs on March 13, 2008, 02:23:43 PM
Post by: KDawg77 on March 13, 2008, 02:25:05 PM
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Ken
Sometimes you are the cheetah and sometimes you are the stick...
Videos at http://www.putfile.come/k-dawg77
http://www.myspace.com/lefthandedhammerpride
http://khlthe2nd.bowlspace.com
http://members.bowl.com/FindAMember/memberView.aspx?mp=418&ms=2006&s=2006-2007
Post by: KDawg77 on March 13, 2008, 02:41:39 PM
My book average is likely to be in the high 180's if I close well these last six weeks of league. I've struggled all year and normally carry 195-207 range. My USBC Tourney average is only 180 for 27 games. Even though I'm not great, I'd rather be a low regular than a bagging classified bowler.
--------------------
Ken
Sometimes you are the cheetah and sometimes you are the stick...
Videos at http://www.putfile.come/k-dawg77
http://www.myspace.com/lefthandedhammerpride
http://khlthe2nd.bowlspace.com
http://members.bowl.com/FindAMember/memberView.aspx?mp=418&ms=2006&s=2006-2007