Author Topic: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament (Read 39764 times)

Mighty Fish · « **on:** July 08, 2013, 04:38:19 PM »

Some people claim that the scores in the USBC Open Tournament are way too high, and they point to the high number of honor scores in attempting to make that point.

However, once again this year, the OVERALL averages of the tournament field are far from "too high" (as the following breakdown of this year's USBC Open clearly indicate) ...

* REGULAR TEAM ... 173.6 (120,335 games)
* REGULAR DOUBLES/SINGLES ... 173.8 (233,203 games)
* CLASSIFIED TEAM ... 152.1 (34,054 games)
* CLASSIFIED DOUBLES/SINGLES ... 149.3 (73,765 games)
* TEAM (both divisions combined) ... 168.9
* DOUBLES/SINGLES (both divisions combined) ... 168.0
* OVERALL (all divisions, all events) ... 168.3 (461,357 games)

So as I've maintained on many occasions, whereas there are quite a few high scores, only a very few -- outside of the best players and shotmakers -- are able to score at a high level. The statistics speak for themselves.

MI 2 AZ · « **Reply #136 on:** March 20, 2014, 03:08:15 PM »

Quote from: Good Times Good Times on March 19, 2014, 09:16:26 AM

Quote from: Steven on March 08, 2014, 12:03:27 AM
Joe, the so called "things they don't need" are what makes the tournament special. Without them, you're essentially proposing that the Open be dumbed down to a bloated city tournament. Many bowlers won't invest in plane flights, multiple travel days, hotel nights, and all the other expenses for an experience they can sign up for close to home. That's certainly the case for me. I like the full blown booth experience. I look forward to bowling in all the side tournaments as much as the Open itself. Take these and other 'unnecessary' components away, and I don't go. And I don't think I'm alone.

I've yet to formulate my opinion on this.

I guess my question would be for Joe Cool would be, and I think this is a fair question: What SPECIFICALLY are the "things they don't need"? This year will be my first USBC Open Championships and I've been told it's a fun experience.

So, what specifically are the things "they (USBC) don't need" that I personally will experience this year? What is the expensive "overkill" that will be offered to me? I'm looking for specifics here........

What are the USBC Open Tournament's bells and whistles at Reno? What does it have that other tournaments don't have that could be eliminated to save money?

Off the top of my head:

1. Bowling industry or bowling related vendor booths, like the ball manufacturer's proshop/display booths. Do bowlers really need to spend money on new bowling balls at a tournament or have their bowling balls plugged/altered prior to their squads? Of course, if a ball is found to be illegal due to a static weight violation during check-in (see item #3), the bowler would not be able to use the ball if there was no proshop available to do the necessary corrections prior to the bowler's squad. You also have booths where souvenirs are sold. How many keepsakes does one need to remind them of their sub 500 scores?

2. A ball shipping service whereby the bowlers can have their bowling balls shipped to or from the tournament site. Too many lazy bowlers who don't like to lug their eight bowling balls over their shoulders to and from the tournament site?

3. A squad room and ball weighing check-in station. Do we really need to have all the bowlers for a squad waiting in one area? Most bowlers I know have personal hygiene issues so that can be rather uncomfortable for those who don't. Just have the bowlers show up early and mill around the bowling center like in most other tournaments. And ball check-in? What other tournaments even worry about something like that, especially with all the illegally drilled bowling balls in use daily in league play? Just a huge waste of money there for sure, because you have to pay a couple of people to do all the ball checks.

4. The walk down the center aisle before the squad starts. You could save space by eliminating that and keeping the bowlers out of the area behind the lane machines (which must be an insurance risk issue, so save money on insurance too).

5. The lane machines and mechanics. They really have a large number of lane machines in use for the Open, probably more than any other tournament. The cost for all those lane machines (eight?) and the people to run them before every squad could be saved by running like a normal tournament with just two machines. Of course, the squad times would have to be slightly extended, thus extending the length of the tournament run slightly, but the goal is to save money. The Open also has an unusually high number of mechanics working during the tournament. Cut those down to just two and some pin-jumpers to save money. Might be more breakdowns, but as bowlers we should be used to that, right?

6. Lane 81. The Open has an extra lane away from all the others that is used for instruction use. This takes up a large space and is something that you don't see in other tournaments. Do bowlers really need to get lessons before a tournament? Is it fair to those who do not want to spend the money on lessons and instead on beer?

7. Bowling ball lockers. These huge bowling ball lockers take up a lot of space and probably generate a lot of money for the USBC. Bowlers who bowl team event one day and the minors the next, use these lockers to store their bowling balls and bags and to save themselves some excercise from lugging or dragging them back and forth between events.

Now, if you really want to save space and eliminate things that are not really necessary to hold a tournament, you could also eliminate the food vendor booths. Is it really necessary to eat or drink before, after or during bowling? And by eliminating the food and drinks, you could cut down on the number of bathrooms, thereby saving even more space. Just have bowlers bring in an extra empty bowling bag for emergency use. Plus, the bowlers would be leaving the bowling site even faster than normal instead of loitering around causing congestion.

I probably missed a few things so feel free to add yours.

milorafferty · « **Reply #137 on:** March 20, 2014, 04:20:19 PM »

Nice list MI 2 AZ, I'm SURE attendance wouldn't drop further if they left all those things out.

BowlingTourney · « **Reply #138 on:** March 20, 2014, 05:13:07 PM »

So basically if it is annoying to you MI 2 AZ, it must be something they can do without. Makes total sense.

Ever stop to think it is these things that helped to bring in 12k+ teams at one point as well?

Joe Cool · « **Reply #139 on:** March 21, 2014, 09:47:38 AM »

Quote from: Jorge300 on March 20, 2014, 01:06:12 PM

Time is ticking away Joe......your Final Jeopardy answer must be completed soon....but since you are so limited in your comprehension, we will dispense with it being in the form of a question....in fact we would prefer it be in the form of an answer to the questions all of us have asked you.

All of us? There is no all of us. There's you. And you've been answered, you just don't like the answer, but you're not smart enough to understand the answer either.

As I said, I don't care what you think. The information is out there for those that want to understand. I'm done with you before you start falsely accusing me of making anti-semetic posts 20 years ago. You're a typical internet blow hard. Always have been, always will be. The world is full of people like you that think you know-it-all. People like you only understand being smacked in the head with the truth before you realize what has been going on. Let's just say you've made your point clear and we can bring this thread back to life when I'm proven right.

Joe Cool · « **Reply #140 on:** March 21, 2014, 09:49:56 AM »

Quote from: BowlingTourney on March 20, 2014, 05:13:07 PM

So basically if it is annoying to you MI 2 AZ, it must be something they can do without. Makes total sense.

Ever stop to think it is these things that helped to bring in 12k+ teams at one point as well?

He's being sarcastic. What he's not realizing is that ALL of those things can happen with less space than USBC requires to even submit a bid. There's no way anyone with any sense of rationality could argue otherwise. But people are trying for some reason.

Steven · « **Reply #141 on:** March 21, 2014, 10:25:28 AM »

Quote from: Joe Cool on March 21, 2014, 09:49:56 AM

He's being sarcastic. What he's not realizing is that ALL of those things can happen with less space than USBC requires to even submit a bid. There's no way anyone with any sense of rationality could argue otherwise. But people are trying for some reason.

In the past, you've argued that the booths and some of the other non-bowling specific side shows could be eliminated in pursuit of reducing costs. Now you're implying that's really not necessary. Interesting.

So if you keep everything, how much less space can you realistically get away with?? If you reduce the number of lanes, you're pushing the tournament into July and possibly August. That's probably not an option. Booths and stores take up a certain amount of space that's hard to cut enough of to make a real difference. So where is the potential for space reduction that equates to a difference maker for a bid?

Jorge300 · « **Reply #142 on:** March 21, 2014, 10:45:42 AM »

Joe,
You can keep bringing up stuff from the Non-moderated forum...but it just shows the lack of class you have. And unless you posted under this name in another forum, and actually did something like that, you have nothing to worry about, other than how you will survive another day with your severe lack of intelligence.

Now, again for the umpteenth time, no one is dsiputing that the USBC could remove things like the vendor booths and such. What you fail to answer is in the real world, how does the USBC recreate the revenue it gets from having these thing at the USBC Open? Plus, how do continue to market the USBC Open as the sports most prestigous amateur tournament when you've now made it look like everyone's State or Local Association tournament? You refuse, or more likely don't have the mental capacity to understand, that the USBC isn't going to magically become self sufficient on Membership Dues alone. It needs additional sources of income, even if ran the perfect, tightest, and leanest organization in the world. It would still need to get revenue from somewhere. And your solution to this is.......exactly nothing. All you have said is ways to further reduce revenue.....yet you then complain when services are cut. Only in your classless little mind, can you get more service while bringing less money. You must work for the government cause they are the only ones who seem to be able to think that kind of a solution works. Maybe, one day, when you grow up, you can see what the adults in this thread were talking about and realize what a tool you've been. But I won't hold my breath. It must be getting close to nap time for you isn't it?

Joe Cool · « **Reply #143 on:** March 21, 2014, 03:04:05 PM »

Quote from: Steven on March 21, 2014, 10:25:28 AM

Quote from: Joe Cool on March 21, 2014, 09:49:56 AM

He's being sarcastic. What he's not realizing is that ALL of those things can happen with less space than USBC requires to even submit a bid. There's no way anyone with any sense of rationality could argue otherwise. But people are trying for some reason.

In the past, you've argued that the booths and some of the other non-bowling specific side shows could be eliminated in pursuit of reducing costs. Now you're implying that's really not necessary. Interesting.

So if you keep everything, how much less space can you realistically get away with?? If you reduce the number of lanes, you're pushing the tournament into July and possibly August. That's probably not an option. Booths and stores take up a certain amount of space that's hard to cut enough of to make a real difference. So where is the potential for space reduction that equates to a difference maker for a bid?

All it takes is someone creative enough to come up with a viable solution. Things like having the booths off-site, or on-site, but it a slightly different location. There are so many lanes going unused now that they are cancelling full squads and combining them with others (and still not filling the lanes). Those are just the obvious things. A trailor could be brought in to house all the offices and registration for example. There are solutions if one wishes to seek them. Apparently I'm as smart as a 1 year old and I came up with these in 45 seconds. Surely the smart people can come up with better solutions.

Joe Cool · « **Reply #144 on:** March 21, 2014, 03:06:39 PM »

Quote from: Jorge300 on March 21, 2014, 10:45:42 AM

Joe,
You can keep bringing up stuff from the Non-moderated forum...but it just shows the lack of class you have. And unless you posted under this name in another forum, and actually did something like that, you have nothing to worry about, other than how you will survive another day with your severe lack of intelligence.

Now, again for the umpteenth time, no one is dsiputing that the USBC could remove things like the vendor booths and such. What you fail to answer is in the real world, how does the USBC recreate the revenue it gets from having these thing at the USBC Open? Plus, how do continue to market the USBC Open as the sports most prestigous amateur tournament when you've now made it look like everyone's State or Local Association tournament? You refuse, or more likely don't have the mental capacity to understand, that the USBC isn't going to magically become self sufficient on Membership Dues alone. It needs additional sources of income, even if ran the perfect, tightest, and leanest organization in the world. It would still need to get revenue from somewhere. And your solution to this is.......exactly nothing. All you have said is ways to further reduce revenue.....yet you then complain when services are cut. Only in your classless little mind, can you get more service while bringing less money. You must work for the government cause they are the only ones who seem to be able to think that kind of a solution works. Maybe, one day, when you grow up, you can see what the adults in this thread were talking about and realize what a tool you've been. But I won't hold my breath. It must be getting close to nap time for you isn't it?

Lack of class? Coming from someone with your level of class, I'll take that as a compliment since you have no idea what class is. All you do is insult people that have the gall to think differently than you do. Move on, you're one more response from going on ignore with LGD so I don't have to read your BS anymore.

milorafferty · « **Reply #145 on:** March 21, 2014, 03:23:40 PM »

Quote from: Joe Cool on March 21, 2014, 03:04:05 PM

Quote from: Steven on March 21, 2014, 10:25:28 AM
Quote from: Joe Cool on March 21, 2014, 09:49:56 AM

He's being sarcastic. What he's not realizing is that ALL of those things can happen with less space than USBC requires to even submit a bid. There's no way anyone with any sense of rationality could argue otherwise. But people are trying for some reason.

In the past, you've argued that the booths and some of the other non-bowling specific side shows could be eliminated in pursuit of reducing costs. Now you're implying that's really not necessary. Interesting.

So if you keep everything, how much less space can you realistically get away with?? If you reduce the number of lanes, you're pushing the tournament into July and possibly August. That's probably not an option. Booths and stores take up a certain amount of space that's hard to cut enough of to make a real difference. So where is the potential for space reduction that equates to a difference maker for a bid?

All it takes is someone creative enough to come up with a viable solution. Things like having the booths off-site, or on-site, but it a slightly different location. There are so many lanes going unused now that they are cancelling full squads and combining them with others (and still not filling the lanes). Those are just the obvious things. A trailor could be brought in to house all the offices and registration for example. There are solutions if one wishes to seek them. Apparently I'm as smart as a 1 year old and I came up with these in 45 seconds. Surely the smart people can come up with better solutions.

USBC HEADQUARTERS
621 Six Flags Drive
Arlington, TX 76011
www.BOWL.com
800-514-2695 and enter ext. when requested

Marketing
marketing@bowl.com
ext. 8960 | Fax: 817-385-8260

National Championships
USBC Open Championships
USBCopenchampionships@bowl.com
ext. 8973

Regional Managers
- Robin Marshall (Northeast) | robin.marshall@bowl.com
- George Lambert (Midwest) | george.lambert@bowl.com
- Jim Zebehazy (South) | jim.zebehazy@bowl.com
- David Prange (West) | david.prange@bowl.com

There you go Joe. One of these contact will probably appreciate your suggestions. I'm sure they have not thought of any of your ideas. You should be able to school them and get this taken care of right away.

Jorge300 · « **Reply #146 on:** March 21, 2014, 03:28:40 PM »

Joe,
Oh please please can I be on your ignore list....then I won't have deal with you infintile posts anymore.

And just so you can look even more foolish than usual....your replies as to where put the booths are priceless....PRICELESS. So you just put them somewhere else. How do you pay for that somewhere else? Do you think any convention center would give you extra space for free just because you rented out part of it? Put the offices in a trailer....who pays for the trailer, and what do you do with it when the tournament isn't going on? Where do you put it while the tournament is going on? DO you think any city will just allow you to block public areas with it? Do you think any convention center will allow you to use up part of their parking lot, especially when you have lowered your space requirements now so they can have additional things going on in other areas? Do you even think about these answers or do you just spout off whatever drivel comes into your teeny tiny little mind? And how many teams are you going to lose when you tell them they can't have their preferred dates anymore cause there isn't enough lanes? How can you tell teams that even though you wanted one set of dates, now you have to go a month later, or earlier, even though that may not work with their schedules, just because they couldn't fill up an entire squad?

I could go on and on but this shows that you have no clue as to what you are talking about, and have decided to continue your charade anyway, just because you don't like me. You have no facts, no proof, no answers, nothing but a blind hatred for someone you have never and probably will never meet. And at this point in time, Im fine with that, I don't want to meet you and have to be responsible for burping you and changing your diaper.

Joe Cool · « **Reply #147 on:** March 21, 2014, 09:01:46 PM »

Done. One less idiot for me to deal with. You wouldn't know how to solve a problem if it smacked you in the face. Now I only have to deal with people quoting your idiotic posts.

Joe Cool · « **Reply #148 on:** March 22, 2014, 07:28:11 PM »

I'm not sure why I'm going to bother with this given all the closed-minded people here, but I guess I'm not ready to stop standing up for the little guy that is sick of going to Reno.

For the people actually capable of thinking for themselves here, one of the solutions is fairly easy to implement. They are already eliminating the early morning and late night squads. The simplest solution is requiring less space for lanes for a bid since they can't fill squads anyway instead of taking those squads away. That alone will allow more cities to bid. Now we know this won't happen because USBC has no interest in having other cities bid, but they could get more cities interested in bidding with one small change to the requirements to submit a bid. I can't wait to hear someone explain how this isn't possible...

Another simple solution as I mentioned earlier is hosting the registration and league offices in a trailer. This is another fairly simple solution that will decrease the amount of space required in the building. These trailers could take up a couple parking spots. Not really a big deal. I've never been to a convention center that couldn't spare a few parking spaces, especially for a bowling tournament that few go to watch that aren't participating. Certainly not expensive. Trailers could be stored at USBC headquarters when not in use at the site. This would require USBC to spend a little money in the short term to provide a better experience for their members longer term. But again, USBC would prefer to have the tournament in Reno or Vegas, so this isn't going to happen either.

I get it. You guys want what you want and don't care if the event is in the same places every year. You've made your point clear. I am fine with Reno and Vegas every year too. We're the minority. People are sick of Reno. Many, many people stopped coming. You cannot deny either of those statements. Why you choose to bury your heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine vs looking at solutions to increase the amount of times the tournament is in different locations is beyond me.

northface28 · « **Reply #149 on:** March 22, 2014, 07:43:33 PM »

Quote from: Joe Cool on March 22, 2014, 07:28:11 PM

I'm not sure why I'm going to bother with this given all the closed-minded people here, but I guess I'm not ready to stop standing up for the little guy that is sick of going to Reno.

For the people actually capable of thinking for themselves here, one of the solutions is fairly easy to implement. They are already eliminating the early morning and late night squads. The simplest solution is requiring less space for lanes for a bid since they can't fill squads anyway instead of taking those squads away. That alone will allow more cities to bid. Now we know this won't happen because USBC has no interest in having other cities bid, but they could get more cities interested in bidding with one small change to the requirements to submit a bid. I can't wait to hear someone explain how this isn't possible...

Another simple solution as I mentioned earlier is hosting the registration and league offices in a trailer. This is another fairly simple solution that will decrease the amount of space required in the building. These trailers could take up a couple parking spots. Not really a big deal. I've never been to a convention center that couldn't spare a few parking spaces, especially for a bowling tournament that few go to watch that aren't participating. Certainly not expensive. Trailers could be stored at USBC headquarters when not in use at the site. This would require USBC to spend a little money in the short term to provide a better experience for their members longer term. But again, USBC would prefer to have the tournament in Reno or Vegas, so this isn't going to happen either.

I get it. You guys want what you want and don't care if the event is in the same places every year. You've made your point clear. I am fine with Reno and Vegas every year too. We're the minority. People are sick of Reno. Many, many people stopped coming. You cannot deny either of those statements. Why you choose to bury your heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine vs looking at solutions to increase the amount of times the tournament is in different locations is beyond me.

Our group has 5 teams, this year 4 of those teams have dropped out. Before some of the elitists start with their crap, these aren't "once a week bowlers" we bowl in sport leagues, travel to scratch tournaments out of state, we make efforts to practice, etc.

But enough is enough, we are average middle class people, some with families. They/We can't justify dropping $2k to go bowl 9 games with no real payoff. The tired excuse of "its a vacation" has worn out and a lot guys caught grief from their wives, typically, you enjoy a vacation and look forward to going to that destination. Reno, NV is NOT that.

This tournament is dying a slow death and anyone who doesn't see that, I have ocean front property in Chicago to sell you.

itsallaboutme · « **Reply #150 on:** March 22, 2014, 08:55:39 PM »

Where has it been that you would consider a "vacation destination"?

I went for 18 years. The one common theme with every city we went to was there was no reason to go back.

Author Topic: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament (Read 39764 times)

Mighty Fish

Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

MI 2 AZ

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

milorafferty

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

BowlingTourney

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

Joe Cool

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

Joe Cool

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

Steven

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Jorge300

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

Joe Cool

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

Joe Cool

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

milorafferty

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

Jorge300

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

Joe Cool

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

Joe Cool

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

northface28

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament

itsallaboutme

Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament