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Author Topic: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament  (Read 39575 times)

Mighty Fish

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Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« on: July 08, 2013, 04:38:19 PM »
Some people claim that the scores in the USBC Open Tournament are way too high, and they point to the high number of honor scores in attempting to make that point.

However, once again this year, the OVERALL averages of the tournament field are far from "too high" (as the following breakdown of this year's USBC Open clearly indicate) ...

* REGULAR TEAM ... 173.6 (120,335 games)
* REGULAR DOUBLES/SINGLES ... 173.8 (233,203 games)
* CLASSIFIED TEAM ... 152.1 (34,054 games)
* CLASSIFIED DOUBLES/SINGLES ... 149.3 (73,765 games)
* TEAM (both divisions combined) ... 168.9
* DOUBLES/SINGLES (both divisions combined) ... 168.0
* OVERALL (all divisions, all events) ... 168.3 (461,357 games)

So as I've maintained on many occasions, whereas there are quite a few high scores, only a very few -- outside of the best players and shotmakers -- are able to score at a high level. The statistics speak for themselves.

 

Jorge300

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2014, 03:49:17 PM »
Jess,
    Sorry, but I call BS. Without knowing exactly where you live, I can find flights on Southwest from a bunch of Southeastern US cities for about $425/person, and that was with just a month notice. While I am not saying that isn't an investment, it is nowhere near the cost of a flight to New Zealand. Sure it isn't something you can do monthly, but it isn't much more, if any, than any vacation flight. You can also find deals booking hotels and flights together that would save money on both.
 
Second, if you feel you "can't win a thing" than you might as well stay home. Coming in with that mind set, you are set up to fail. Instead of practicing or finding ways to get better, you think you have no chance. And in thinking that, you make it correct. Also, you have to book now because you have a large group, 50 bowlers, that is probably around 40-50 rooms needed. Any hotel would ask for a large amount of lead time to set aside that many rooms. You book now so that you can assure the dates/times you want. If your 50 bowlers didn't care when they went, you could wait until later to book and take what you get. This is a choice made by your group, not a requirement.
 
The USBC will gladly move away from Reno. Why don't you talk to you local Convention Center and get them to bid on the tournament. I am sure they will jump right on it. All they have to do is cancel all their yearly shows for 7-8 months one year, and then hope all these shows will come back the year after the tournament after getting moved out. You claim this tournament being in Reno is about making money, and you are correct. But how loud would you, and all the others complaining about Reno, have screamed if the USBC raised membership fees by $5. Yes, they use the tournament to fund the USBC partially, and part of the reason is they haven't raised the membership dues in something like 5 years. How many other things are still the same price now as 5 years ago? And they have done this with a declining membership. It costs money for the USBC to operate, what they do with that money is up for debate and something I will not defend or spite them for here. But unless they raise membership dues substantially, the only other real source of income is this tournament.
Jorge300

JessN16

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2014, 04:23:37 PM »
Jorge,

I don't want this to sound harsh, but we've both been members here for years and often it's appeared to me you don't much consider anyone else's opinion during a discussion/argument. You seem like a swell guy otherwise but I really don't expect you to give me much consideration.

For you to "call BS" on what it takes for me to travel is evidence of this lack of perspective. You skipped over what I said about family travel. If I go, two other people go with me. Then there is time I miss from work (if I don't work, I don't get paid). Then there is the issue of equipment -- do I pay to ship equipment there and back, or do I drive and take it with me, which is 6-8 days round trip by vehicle? I don't own an RV, so that's a lot of hotel/motel stays on the way out and back. Then there is food, incidentals, and whatever I decide to buy at the tournament site itself.

As far as getting better to compete, let's get serious for a minute. Only the top-level amateurs or professionals can win this tournament -- and that's fine, they deserve to.

Me? I had a heart attack two weeks after Baton Rouge in 2012. Then I re-injured my right knee I'd hurt as a teenager. I can't have the surgery to fix the knee due to the drugs I'm taking per my cardiac treatment. So I strap on a knee brace and hope it holds up.

Basically, I have two choices: I can either sandbag like hell and back up into the classified division 2 years from now, where I might actually have a chance, or I can do my best every time I go to my league (only one now, unfortunately), book my 200 average and be out of the running before I ever get to the convention center. I do the latter because I couldn't live with myself if I did the former.

Again, I'm not hating on the guys who win. This is a tournament, not a welfare office we're talking about. But realistically, 90% of the people who enter that tournament have no legitimate shot. They're all hoping to do something heroic, and there's no shame in doubling down on hope. But they're donators. I'm a donator. And while I don't mind donating, I do mind donating plus spending about two grand and losing 1-2 weeks of potential job revenue by going to Reno every time. While what you say about the mechanics of bidding the tournament is true, the reality is it's not going to matter after awhile, because the membership will begin voting with their feet. They already did in 2013, it looks like.

Jess
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 04:30:34 PM by JessN16 »

Jorge300

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2014, 03:41:32 PM »
Jess,
    I am a swell guy, if you get to know me. But I also am a straight-shooter. I have done a lot of international traveling for my work, inlcuding trips to SE Asia. So I know the prices of these tickets. And to say it costs as much to go to Reno as it does to go to New Zealand is BS. As I said in my post, the costs aren't something anyone can do repeatedly, but for a vacation trip, the cost are reasonable. Sure you can always find lower fares to more desirable destinations....but there is a reason for that, the planes are almost always full. I have family in Las Vegas, so trust me, I know how difficult it can be to get tickets on these flights. I also understand what it means to take a family, as my wife and son have accompanied me in the past. So I know the costs to Reno, and to many other cities as well. For the last 3 years I traveled from Calgary to bowl. Try checking on flights from Calgary to Baton Rouge if you think flights to Reno are expensive for you...and we don't have Southwest there. I didn't try to single you out, but I am damn tired of hearing everyone complain about going to Reno so much, when they have nothing to offer as a reasonable substitute. No one wants to pay more for their membership fees, no one wants to help out and put in the time with their local convention center boards to try and get this in their area, and the list goes on and on.
 
    I am very sorry to hear of your health issues, and I wish you a speedy recovery from all of them. There is old saying, and it escapes me who originally said it, that goes like this "Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you are right". I don't think I have to explain it, but that is what I meant by your statement of "can't win a thing". If anyone has that attitude, then you have already lost. I have had 2 of my worst performances ever the last two years at the Open. But when I go back this year, I will be going with the mindset that me and my team have a real shot to win if we all roll well. If you are going to go, you need to be prepared mentally and physically, as much as possible for every person. Going in with a defeatist attitude is already losing 50% of the battle.
 
    There are many reasons tournament participation is down. The overall economy is part of it. But it is also this country's attitude of "me first", I think. All everyone cares about is "Me". And while that is partially a neccessity in today's world, people have taken it too far. Just as I mentioned in my post to you, no one want's their memberships fees to go up by $5, they don't want the USBC to curtail the honor score awards, yet they don't want to go to Reno to keep the tournament costs down so more money can get into the USBC to fund things. Everybody wants and wants, yet no one is willing to give up anything, especially money. This is fueling a lot of people who are "tired of Reno". I am tired of Reno too, I very much would like to get back to traveling to cities all over the country. But those days are gone. Between the Convention Centers being unwilling to lose year after year business and risking that these shows won't ever return, to cities/board unwilling to put together an offer, and the lack of interest in anyone actually getting off their sofa to actually work with their localites....you get Reno time and time again. Everyone wants to complain, but no one is willing to see how much of the problem they really are.
Jorge300

BigBaller

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2014, 07:48:54 PM »
Jorge300, I agree with you 100%.

I am not sure it matters where the open is held. Someone is going to complain. I go to the open every year to bowl. I could care less where it is held. I do enjoy seeing other cities.
I loved Baton Rouge and Albuquerque, and bowled the best in Vegas.

But it could be in Reno every year and i would still Bowl it.

I am a middle of the road bowler, stuck in the middle. I average 210-220 on THS. Not a whole lot of sport conditions around here. But i could light it up. I have the ability. 10 years at the open and i have shot 1800 once, with a big 6 in singles. That right there is why i go.

ccrider

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2014, 08:41:57 PM »
The large majority of the bowlers go to have a good time. Winning or competing in the top is a pipe dream.

History has proven that the teams that win generally have a well planned strategy and are elite bowlers. So, for the rest of us, if we go, we go knowing that the odds are a million to one that we win or compete seriously. Still, we go, to have fun, meet the challenge, and come home with a new perspective.

kidlost2000

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2014, 09:30:56 PM »
I agree only the best can compete and win. Id like to see them not release the oil pattern for the event. Everyone has the same opportunities to figure it out when they bowl instead of planning and practicing on the condition months in advance.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

Jorge300

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2014, 10:17:22 AM »
Kidlost,
     This has been gone over time and again. There are no secrets in the world. Someone will know the pattern, and they will tell a few people. If you try to keep the pattern secret, you are only hurting the average bowlers more. First off, there is this thing called the Internet....people that go in March will begin posting about the pattern. Teams that go later will have more info and be better prepared. The only fair thing to do is release it to all. Everyone has the same opportunities then. Everyone can practice on the pattern, if they try hard enough. As I have said before, any center that says they won't put it out can be pursuaded. All you have to do is show them that they can get 5, 10, 15 people to come out and bowl, maybe on a Sunday afternoon when they have limited open play anyway, if they put the pattern down. Any center that still says no, is being ridiculous and throwing away money. This idea is as overplayed as the "I hate Reno" mantra.
Jorge300

Jorge300

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2014, 10:33:18 AM »
CCrider,
    Then why go? If you think that, then there is no reason for you to show up. Look at what BigBaller wrote. He has the right mindset. Where would we be today if people listened to people like you.....telling them that only the chosen few can do things....would Edison have invented the light bulb, would the Wright brothers have invented the airplane, would we have made to the moon, would we even have things like the computer, smart phone, tablet you used to type that message. People told these folks they were crazy, that it was impossible, but they believed in themselves and they got it done. There are examples in bowling too. Look at John Nolen, do think a lot of people were saying he could win the USBC Masters a few years ago? What about Mike Minniman, do you think a lot of people thought he had a chance to win a PBA title when he tried to qualify for the tournament he won? There are many stories of the unknown player coming out of nowhere to win. Yes, the teams that win at the USBC Open are filled with very good players. But there are also teams that make the top 10 that no one expects. Why can't that be us this year? Or BigBallers team? One thing for certain, it won't be your team going in with the attitude you show here.
Jorge300

ccrider

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2014, 05:27:19 PM »
Jorge,

I am a firm believer that the underdog can prevail. I just don't believe in luck so much. Piss poor preparation generally leads to piss poor performance.

Tell me, how many people or teams that "surprisingly" made it into the top ten, did so without adequately, obsessively preparing? My guess is not one.

It would be about like a person that bowls league once or twice a week, and never practices outside of that, winning a major. Ain't gonna happen.

kidlost2000

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2014, 05:44:22 PM »
I don't care if its been discussed and if because of the internet you think the usbc couldnt keep it a secret. I disagree. I also dont think it hurts the average bowler. They are going into it blind under the idea its a tough condition ect. Later bowlers always have an advantage and typically bowl later for a reason.

Instead of releasing the exact pattern id rather they do the normal video that says " this years pattern uses a 3 to 1 ratio and is 37' in length. It is designed to challenge bowlers of all skill levels by forcing them to make good shots blah blah blah."

Then show 3 or 4 different style bowlers go out there and bowl on it for a handful of shots and let them give their opinnins on what the condition was like ect and thats it.

I'd say that is very fair. The great bowlers will still go practice on like conditions to prepare and the average bowlers will still practice on their local THS.



Kidlost,
     This has been gone over time and again. There are no secrets in the world. Someone will know the pattern, and they will tell a few people. If you try to keep the pattern secret, you are only hurting the average bowlers more. First off, there is this thing called the Internet....people that go in March will begin posting about the pattern. Teams that go later will have more info and be better prepared. The only fair thing to do is release it to all. Everyone has the same opportunities then. Everyone can practice on the pattern, if they try hard enough. As I have said before, any center that says they won't put it out can be pursuaded. All you have to do is show them that they can get 5, 10, 15 people to come out and bowl, maybe on a Sunday afternoon when they have limited open play anyway, if they put the pattern down. Any center that still says no, is being ridiculous and throwing away money. This idea is as overplayed as the "I hate Reno" mantra.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

northface28

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2014, 06:02:36 PM »
CCrider,
    Then why go? If you think that, then there is no reason for you to show up. Look at what BigBaller wrote. He has the right mindset. Where would we be today if people listened to people like you.....telling them that only the chosen few can do things....would Edison have invented the light bulb, would the Wright brothers have invented the airplane, would we have made to the moon, would we even have things like the computer, smart phone, tablet you used to type that message. People told these folks they were crazy, that it was impossible, but they believed in themselves and they got it done. There are examples in bowling too. Look at John Nolen, do think a lot of people were saying he could win the USBC Masters a few years ago? What about Mike Minniman, do you think a lot of people thought he had a chance to win a PBA title when he tried to qualify for the tournament he won? There are many stories of the unknown player coming out of nowhere to win. Yes, the teams that win at the USBC Open are filled with very good players. But there are also teams that make the top 10 that no one expects. Why can't that be us this year? Or BigBallers team? One thing for certain, it won't be your team going in with the attitude you show here.

Anyone with a functioning brain from the midwest knew Mike Mineman had more than a chance at winning a title. Poor example, but I get your point.
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Joe Cool

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2014, 09:53:02 AM »
If only the people with a chance to win go, you don't have a tournament to go to.
Hit the pocket and hope for the best

Jorge300

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2014, 10:27:50 AM »
CCrider,
     You are 100% correct. I did not mean the "surprise" teams lucked their way into a top 10 finish. But what you say is true for all sports. Playoff football teams in the NFL still hold practices, playoff basketball teams in the NBA still hold practices, etc. I just meant that there are always a few teams that no one would pick that wind up near the top every year. Like anything it takes practrice, teamwork, and great execution of a game plan to prevail...but a little luck never hurts as well.
Jorge300

Jorge300

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2014, 10:38:05 AM »
Kidlost,
    Feel free to disagree, but you are incorrect. People will know the pattern, it won't be kept secret. Only a select few will get this knowledge and they will have a distinct advantage over the rest. Releasing the pattern allows the average bowlers to come in with a knowledge of where they should play the lanes. Now whether or not they can hit that target consistently in another story. You are correct in that the better teams will practice on the condition, while most of the average bowlers will not. But without releasing the pattern you are going widen the gap between these groups even further. By letting everyone know the pattern, and making it available for centers across the country to put it out, you are giving the average bowler a chance to get some practice in on that pattern. It's up to them to take advantage of that, but the opportunity is there. There is no upside what-so-ever for trying to keep the pattern secret, only downside. It's a losing proposition for the USBC to even try to do it.
Jorge300

Jorge300

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Re: Entire field averages only 168.3 in USBC Open Tournament
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2014, 10:42:27 AM »
If only the people with a chance to win go, you don't have a tournament to go to.

Joe, we already know the fantasy world you live in. One where the USBC can do everything for free and money grows on trees so the USBC doesn't have to worry about funding ever again. Just so we can fit the tournament into a shoebox center in a town that is close to you. So it is no surprise to me that you don't understand the points here. If you think you don't have chance, then you won't have a chance. If you think you can do well, there is more of a chance you will. It's very simple.
Jorge300