BallReviews
General Category => USBC Tournament => Topic started by: Dewey24 on January 28, 2009, 12:07:41 PM
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These thoughts come from another thread earlier, but this has been bothering me ever since my first nationals experience in syracuse about 10 years ago i think.
We have all these balls failing at the scale room year in and year out for a variety of reasons. Now i realize that its not always the bowlers fault, most dont drill their own balls or really care about side, finger, top weights etc.
Now my question is how many honor scores have been thrown with these balls? And should there be some sort of punishment or something for this??
Well just a thought, and maybe i just created a new job in the world of bowling, the official HONOR SCORE BALL LEGALITY REPRESENTATIVE..
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I am with you 100%. That is a very good point you bring up, and also the fact that nearly 0% of all honor scores are checked anymore. Something should be done, a simple signing off on the award sheet by a sanctioned pro-shop operator to verify legality.
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That's a very negative outlook.
Why not turn it around and be positive? Have that "person" spend all their time guaranteeing that every ball used by every bowler in every league and in every tournament is legal before they can use?
The reasons are
1. Almost all those "illegal" balls are illegal for no good reason any more. Static weights have bene shown to have minimal effect sinc ethe advent of dynamic cores.
2. The ABC/USBC doesn't even have the personnel to validate that the oil used in any onehouse is legal more than once a year. Yet lanes are oiled every day, in most centers.
3. Most balls, especially those found to be illegal at Nationals, are off by 1/16th of an ounce or thereabouts. Those are corrected virtually immediately with a drill right then and there before the bowler is allowed to leave.
"Punishment"?
Are you serious?
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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I don't think a punishment is necessary. Just if the ball is found to be out of legal statics, its is illegal, you cannot argue with that. What the difference in lane dressings being legal and those that are unsanctioned? A mL or two? Rules are rules, regardless if they prove an advantage or a disadvantage. You shouldn't be allowed to break rules and not get punished for it. As far as Nationals go, I don't see a problem with what they do. But I do wish somehow, honor scores were checked like they used to be. We have to put our great sanction money to work, why not impose double duty to our league officers to verify the lanes when an honor score is reported?
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2. The ABC/USBC doesn't even have the personnel to validate that the oil used in any onehouse is legal more than once a year. Yet lanes are oiled every day, in most centers.
this may be true in alot of places, fortunately our state association has turned around for the most part the last few years and they do spot inspections if there are a ton of honor scores submitted
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1. Almost all those "illegal" balls are illegal for no good reason any more. Static weights have bene shown to have minimal effect sinc ethe advent of dynamic cores.
this also may be true, but why have the rules in place..it doesnt matter if statics matter or not. either have the rule or dont
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"Punishment"?
Are you serious?
maybe punishment is a harsh word but rules are rules, should you not be held responsible for breaking a rule
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I don't know about you guys but I have had a bowling ball pass 2 or 3 years in a row and then not pass the 4th year. Now should I be punished for all the honor scores for a ball that passed 3 out of 4 years? *LOL*
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Luck is when Preparation Meets Opportunity
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there needs to be more said about the lanes than the equpment but i fullly agree with you but when you have a house whos owner wants to break records so on his main league night runs a shot he can shoot 250- 260 every game on while the majority of bowlers avg. drop him and his team kill it there lanes from what i hear are not with in the usbc legal specs but the assosiation manager bowlers on that team and says nothing he doesn't even know how to tape the lanes. i think before we go after the pro shops we need to make sure that the assosiation managers and officers are doing there job to make sure competion is fair
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I agree with the rules are the rules whether you agree with them or not.
It is not hard to weigh/balance a ball. Any real proshop should have the expertise and equipment to do it.
My issue with nationals is that I have personally balanced a ball that wasn’t close, it had a little less than ¾ oz of side weight. Took it to nationals and had it pass one day then had them reject it the next.
There is no way to go back and punish for honor scores and in our association there are probably a dozen honor scores shot each week. The local association would have to have at least 2 teams of inspectors and on some nights houses might have a half dozen lanes shut down waiting for inspection.
When the USBC/ABC allowed legal blocking of the lanes all that went out the window, besides how happy would you be if after you shot your honor score they came and denied it because of lanes and/or ball illegalities.
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Why punish the bowler? Instead, go after the pro shops for allowing an illegal ball to enter into any kind of competition.
I'm an OK bowler and I agree that I don't know as much technically as I should. I don't know my PAP off hand, or my axis rotation, or my exact rev rate, etc. That's my bad. I should be better about that, and I plan to better myself in that regard in the near future.
But I'm paying for a service when I get a ball punched up. I'd hope that service knows an illegal ball when they're done with it so it can be rectified. I trust that when I leave that pro shop, I have a legal ball in my hands.
So, now what? Is it fair to go after the pro shops?
I don't know. I'm just asking.
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If I ever saw an amputee being hanged, I'd just yell out letters. --DM
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So, now what? Is it fair to go after the pro shops?
sure its fair they drilled it, they know the rules (or should)..I know being a ball driller that some people dont like to have balance holes, so if i throw it on the scale and its close ill let them know whats going on and give them options, either an extra hole or we can drill a finger deeper if its borderline.
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Now i realize that its not always the bowlers fault, most dont drill their own balls or really care about weights
the above quote is from my original post, its not always the bowlers fault maybe they dont have a conscious ball driller.
and im not bashing anyone, it was just a some thoughts i had on the subject
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I think, based on the strength of todays equipment, you only have an handfull of shops/bowlers drilling out illegal equipment on purpose. Most shops usually forget to put in the weight hole or their scale is off.
Imagine a 5 man league of 20 teams each have 4 balls. That is 400 balls that must be weighed in. First off, who is paying the pro shop to weigh all these balls and who's to say once the ball is weighed in and approved that the bowler doesn't modify the ball later.
The nationals have gotton a lot better in checking out equipment over the past few years. I have similiar horror stories about my equipment also. But like I said, with todays equipment, there is no reason to have you equipment that close to being illegal.
The only bowlers that I think would possibly have illegal equipment are the heavy action bowlers. Most of them always seem to want an edge. Now, thats the equipment that would be interesting to check out.
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This is not exactly on topic, but I would be interested to know how many of you out there that drill your own equipment in your garage or basement have a dodo scale to balance the ball after drilling. If you don't have a scale, how do you know the ball is legal?
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"Punishment"?
Are you serious?
maybe punishment is a harsh word but rules are rules, should you not be held responsible for breaking a rule
Like real laws, it's only a crime if you know it's a crime and they know you know it's a crime and they prove you intentionally broke the law.
For 99.9999% (or higher) of the people with these illegal balls, they do not even know it's illegal.
How many moving violations would you like to get for every time your car went over or even on a solid white or yellow line, whether accidentally or on purpose, EVEN if it were to avoid hitting a pedestrian?? Get 2 or 3 of those in most states and your insurance would go through the roof, the local Department of Motor Vehicles might very well suspend your driving license, the local municipal court would fine you more and more for each one, etc. or worse. But how many peopel did you harm by doing those? Yet they are VIOLATIONS! How badly should YOU be punished??? if at all???? How many thousands of dollars should it cost you? Your driver license?
I'd bet you and the rest of us cross a solid line 50 of more times every year, if not more.
And, yes, I view this comparison as very analagous.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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Like real laws, it's only a crime if you know it's a crime and they know you know it's a crime and they prove you intentionally broke the law.
For 99.9999% (or higher) of the people with these illegal balls, they do not even know it's illegal.
How many moving violations would you like to get for every time your car went over or even on a solid white or yellow line, whether accidentally or on purpose, EVEN if it were to avoid hitting a pedestrian?? Get 2 or 3 of those in most states and your insurance would go through the roof, the local Department of Motor Vehicles might very well suspend your driving license, the local municipal court would fine you more and more for each one, etc. or worse. But how many peopel did you harm by doing those? Yet they are VIOLATIONS! How badly should YOU be punished??? if at all???? How many thousands of dollars should it cost you? Your driver license?
I'd bet you and the rest of us cross a solid line 50 of more times every year, if not more.
And, yes, I view this comparison as very analagous.
while i agree with what your trying to say, your comparing apples to oranges. thats like saying that a corked bat should be compared to going 3 mph over the speedlimit.
not bashing you at all just trying to come up with some sort of compromise on our sides of the debate.
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Imagine a 5 man league of 20 teams each have 4 balls. That is 400 balls that must be weighed in. First off, who is paying the pro shop to weigh all these balls and who's to say once the ball is weighed in and approved that the bowler doesn't modify the ball later.
i agree this would be hard to pull off, but what if i, being a ball driller see a ball on the ball return that "by sight only" looks like it "could be" out of specs. should there be some sort of provision that i (another paying bowler) can have it weighed out.
or lets say (true story) i have a customer come in and want to plug a balance hole. i say ok i can do it, but it may be over the (USBC) limit on statics after it gets done. the bowler says no problem, i do the job, put it on the scale, it reads 1.5oz of side weight, i tell the customer, he says oh well, and goes out and lights the lanes up. is it wrong for me to say something about that, knowing what i know about the said ball??
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Honesty its the bystander effect. I had a danger zone with a half oz of side weight the pin was under ring and the cg was 45 degrees down and didnt need a weight hole because of the very low top weight. I had numerous complaints but in the end i said ok put it on the scale every time the look of amazement was there because it was legal. If it looks wrong question it if they deny it then they are guilty.
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Kiall Hill
Visionary test staff
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on his main league night runs a shot he can shoot 250- 260 every game on while the majority of bowlers avg. drop him and his team kill it
there lanes from what i hear are not with in the usbc legal specs
Everybody else is bowling on the same lanes, why are they having such a hard time.
It only takes a couple of units on the lane to be "legal"
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Now my question is how many honor scores have been thrown with these balls? And should there be some sort of punishment or something for this??
Really...does a 1/4oz over the limit really make a ball so good that anyone can shoot an honor score with it. The thought that its the bowler and not the ball comes to mind.
I agree that rules are rules and we should all have to abide by them. And there are some that purposely bend them to try and gain an advantage. But I also think that maybe all of the people that spend so much time and energy complaining about unfair conditions and illegal equipment, should spend some of that time improving there game.
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"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
Edited on 1/30/2009 10:12 AM
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And everytime someone brings a new ball to use they have to get it signed off by a league official...
Nice idea - but several of the bowlers in my mixed league use house balls. Do they log them in from week to week? Just in case?
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What is the point of this topic????
There is one main point that you seem to forget....whose scale is the "legal" scale? I have seen this scenario many times....weigh a ball on scale A (say line 1 at Nationals) it reads over 1/16 ounce on something. Don't let them drill it, take it back and go to scale B (line 2 at Nationals), it reads 1/16 ounce over in another area, but ok where scale A said it was over. Take it back and go to scale C (line 3 at Nationals) and the ball passes on all areas.
So do we punish this bowler for an illegal ball? Take away all his honor scores??
This is a joke and any attempt at this would open up more cheating then you see today, by far. This is an epic FAIL!
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Jorge300
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One more reason to make sure the shop your spending money with has a IBPSIA certified technician.
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David W. Bolt
Silver Certified USBC Coach
2 IBPSIA Technical Certified Pro Shops
Bowlers Map
Digitrax
Check out a location near you!
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What is the point of this topic????
There is one main point that you seem to forget....whose scale is the "legal" scale? I have seen this scenario many times....weigh a ball on scale A (say line 1 at Nationals) it reads over 1/16 ounce on something. Don't let them drill it, take it back and go to scale B (line 2 at Nationals), it reads 1/16 ounce over in another area, but ok where scale A said it was over. Take it back and go to scale C (line 3 at Nationals) and the ball passes on all areas.
So do we punish this bowler for an illegal ball? Take away all his honor scores??
This is a joke and any attempt at this would open up more cheating then you see today, by far. This is an epic FAIL!
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Jorge300
Hey Dewey, still waiting on your "brilliant" answer to this?????
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Jorge300
Edited on 2/4/2009 1:27 PM
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wut about the fact that some balls pass the first day then dont pass the second day...My first year at usbc was 2 years ago and one of the guys on our teams SPARE ball (an old blue dot) passed the first day, then not the second day..............funny
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RYAN MCDANIEL...University of Wisconsin Whitewater Men's Bowling...5th place at nationals in 07/08
www.newballz.com/forum
great new website!!!
FOS!!!
Diamonds...she'll pretty much HAVE to!!!
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What is the point of this topic????
There is one main point that you seem to forget....whose scale is the "legal" scale? I have seen this scenario many times....weigh a ball on scale A (say line 1 at Nationals) it reads over 1/16 ounce on something. Don't let them drill it, take it back and go to scale B (line 2 at Nationals), it reads 1/16 ounce over in another area, but ok where scale A said it was over. Take it back and go to scale C (line 3 at Nationals) and the ball passes on all areas.
So do we punish this bowler for an illegal ball? Take away all his honor scores??
This is a joke and any attempt at this would open up more cheating then you see today, by far. This is an epic FAIL!
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Jorge300
Hey Dewey, still waiting on your "brilliant" answer to this?????
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Jorge300
{crickets chirping}
Ohhh Dewey...where are you...you going to answer this or just be an a-hole?
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Jorge300
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We manufacture and support the precision digital scales that the USBC uses to check every ball at the tournament, and have done so for several years now. USBC goes to a great deal of trouble each year to make the ball screening rigorous. Every ball is screened before it can be taken into the tournament.
NCAA tournaments and some international tournaments also screen equipment with our scales.
On average, out of every 1000 balls checked, 50 are found to be very close to or over the regulated weight limits. Of those 50, 25 are passed after a more careful screening. Of the remaining 25, half are so out-of-round that they 'lean' in the scale, giving an exaggerated reading in the scale. The remaining 10 or so are really out-of-spec, and must be drilled to be legal.
Regarding someone who passes one day, but gets caught the second day, remember that the screening process is designed to be fast, and the screeners don't carefully measure each ball to precisely find grip centers they estimate it on the fly. If your equipment is close to the limit then the screener could easily pass you one day, but catch you the second day because the grip center was estimated a bit differently.
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Dr. Douglas G. Frank, President
Precision Analytical Instruments, Inc.
www.ToolsForAnalysis.com