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General Category => USBC Tournament => Topic started by: agroves on January 18, 2006, 11:19:21 PM

Title: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: agroves on January 18, 2006, 11:19:21 PM: I am pretty bored at work tonight. Decided to throw this up for discussion.

I think we all know it isn't a secret that they want players off the second arrow. It seems they shut out players with low revs that like to play the outside. Last time I was at nationals, I saw a bunch of senior players struggling to hook the ball from the outside.

I am questioning the fairness of shutting people out and/or pushing them off the ten board to score. Maybe the tourney should have alternating shots, every other year.

Thoughts?

Andrew
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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: shelley on January 19, 2006, 08:06:49 AM: quote:
I think we all know it isn't a secret that they want players off the second arrow. It seems they shut out players with low revs that like to play the outside.

Dare I ask who "they" are? Proprietors who want to even out the wear over the whole lane surface?

SH
Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: tjj300 on January 19, 2006, 08:12:22 AM: I think it is a fair shot. It just requires you to play a different part of the lane. If your only shot is 2nd arrow, and you never move from it no matter what the lanes are telling you, then you're not a good bowler. Doesn't matter if you can split boards, if you won't move, your game is lacking and you deserve low scores.
Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: Laybzz74 on January 19, 2006, 08:19:50 AM: Fair has nothing to do with it, IMHO ... our challenge as bowlers is to "read" the lanes and make the proper decisions/adjustments to give ourselves the largest area on the lanes that afford us the opportunity to strike, string strikes, and cover our spares. My 2 cents ...
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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: dogman666 on January 19, 2006, 08:21:54 AM: Without the "Test" it would be like playing a pin ball machine that you never lose.
Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: cgilyeat on January 19, 2006, 08:41:10 AM: andrew, I understand waht you are saying, but under no circumstances should the Nationl's shot be anything close to a normal house shot. Why?, simply because it is the Nationals. The point is tommake the shot demanding enough to require some skill - both throwing the ball and reading the lanes. Any chance of this would be gone if it was on something similar to the typcial house shot.

I realize that there will always be bowlers who will complain about the shot there saying that it is unplayable and unfair. Unless you've been living under a rock, you should know going in, that it is not a house shot. If a bowler doesn't want to bowl on anything other than a house shot, don't go.

A lot of "older" bowlers go every year out of tradition, knowing that their scores are not going to be very high, and still enjoy the trip. I realize that someday I'll be in that same position, but I plan on going every year as long as I can make the trip. Right now, I still think that I can be somewhat competetive, but that will change, and when it does, I'll still go and enjoy the trip.

However, that will all change if they were to put out a shot that is like a house shot. In that case, why go, there's no point in going if it's not going to be a challenge.
Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: DukeHarding on January 19, 2006, 12:09:00 PM: A lot of the bowlers I grew up with (that are still alive and bowling) are bowling "classified"division ...their scoring has also fallen at home.

That's why they have 2 divisions. I've been shooting the Nationals since the 1970s...it's not only about the bowling...it's about being with friends.
Best I've shot was 1927 I think it was in Salt Lake City...can't remember.
It felt like I shot 2100 all events.
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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: agroves on January 19, 2006, 05:13:43 PM: quote:
I think it is a fair shot. It just requires you to play a different part of the lane. If your only shot is 2nd arrow, and you never move from it no matter what the lanes are telling you, then you're not a good bowler. Doesn't matter if you can split boards, if you won't move, your game is lacking and you deserve low scores.

To play the devils advocate, there are some guys making a living being one dimensional. For example, http://pba.com/players/singlebio.asp?ID=67

quote:
andrew, I understand waht you are saying, but under no circumstances should the Nationl's shot be anything close to a normal house shot. Why?, simply because it is the Nationals. The point is tommake the shot demanding enough to require some skill - both throwing the ball and reading the lanes. Any chance of this would be gone if it was on something similar to the typcial house shot.

Who said anything about a house shot?? If you think the only shot that allows play from the 1st to 2nd arrow is THS, I believe you are mistaken.

This is more of a discussion post, I am not here to start an argument or fight. There are patterns that tend to favor different styles. I am suggesting a rotation of patterns from year to year, thats all.

Andrew
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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: scotts33 on January 19, 2006, 05:30:04 PM: Andrew--I'd venture to say if Dave Traber was bowling Natl's on that pattern he'd try to play the twig which is his A game and he can play 2 board where most can't.

At times at Natl's there is a shot at the gutter most just don't feel confident playing that close to the gutter. I think Traber would do rather well.
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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: agroves on January 19, 2006, 07:43:50 PM: I think so too. I played the 3-4 board last time I was at nats. I was just suggesting some of the best players aren't that versatile.

Andrew
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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: DanH78 on January 19, 2006, 11:20:59 PM: Well, I'm on the fence on this one. Yes, I'd like to see a little more variety at Nationals. Every year I've bowled (this will be #5), the HIGHEST scores have always come from 3rd arrow or deeper. But, I don't see people getting "shut out". The difference I see is that if you get inside 3rd-4th arrow, you have a couple boards to play with. Whereas you can score playing straight up 10, but you need to hit 10 and only 10 every shot. My first year was Billings, that year it was either the twig or 4th arrow. Well, I spent the first 6 games trying to play there and had no luck, for single I said to heck with what everyone says, I'm piping it up 10...I had my best series of the tournament (still not great), but it had a couple 190 games in it.
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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: bass on January 20, 2006, 03:22:27 PM: Bob pretty much hit it right on the head.

I felt sorry for people that have bowled on our pair of lanes after team event.
Mainly because of how we blew up the oil pattern.
What oil that was left on the lanes forced you either inside of 20 or outside of 5 board.
It definitely helps if everyone on the pair goes in with the mind set of playing the same part of the lane early on and follow the transition.
Try and get everyone to play to the majority of your players strengths not to the select few.

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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: Berreez on January 20, 2006, 03:42:53 PM: What kind of shot can a left-hander expect to see? This will be my first national and I'm excited but would like to know how the opposite handers attack the lanes.

Robert
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I threw that like a league bowler...wait I am a league bowler.
Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: Berreez on January 23, 2006, 06:14:26 PM: Any left-handers know what type of shot I can expect?
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I threw that like a league bowler...wait I am a league bowler.
Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: agroves on January 23, 2006, 10:09:06 PM: quote:
Any left-handers know what type of shot I can expect?
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I threw that like a league bowler...wait I am a league bowler.

I am guessing here, b/c I am right handed. But, seeing as the left side will see much less play. I'd guess you could play wherever you are comfortable, provide you have a decent look. I am going in open minded, taking what the lane gives me.

Andrew
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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: bass on January 24, 2006, 07:24:28 AM: A lot depends on what the righthanders are doing.
If you have a bunch of them throwing charcoal from deep inside.
Your head oil is going to disappear in a hurry.
Also you can play just about anywhere you want as long as you are consistent.
I mean speed control,ball release and accuracy.
To go along with making the proper ball selection.
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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: janderson on January 27, 2006, 04:57:33 PM: quote:
Also you can play just about anywhere you want as long as you are consistent.

Absolutely. However, it is not a completely flat pattern, so there is an edge of oil that can be used to create a small amount of miss room.

Yes, if everyone is generally playing that same edge of oil and playing it accurately, the shot can be "opened" up to some degree, and you don't need charcoal briskets to do so. In general, most bowlers (and groups of bowlers) don't have the knowledge, patience, or skill to accomplish this. Bowlers of that caliber will generally succeed on tight conditions anyway. This is in no way a "slam" to "Joe Bowler". I wish I was one of the best bowlers in the world, but I'm not. I'm in the lower 99 percentile like the rest of you

quote:
I think we all know it isn't a secret that they want players off the second arrow.

That's not true at all. The next time you bowl nationals, see if you can catch Eric Pierson (sp), one of the the head mechanics. He's a super nice guy, very approachable, and likes to talk bowling. If you're willing to listen, he'll explain to you the process that is used to create the condition and what "they" are "trying to do" with the lane conditions.

You can play the second arrow, and that includes the "old timers". What you can't do, is play over the second arrow and have your breakpoint all over the lane, or go up and down with your speed, or be inconsistent with your release, etc.

There are 60,000+ bowlers who compete every year and the number keeps growing. My opinion is that the number continues to grow because the bowlers see it as the challenge it is and can rely on a high degree of fairness by those running the tournament. The condition isn't rigged to rule anyone out and isn't rigged to play favorites for anyone, stroker, cranker, tweener, old, young, thin, fat, poor, beautiful, ugly, or what have you (unless you want to get into the whole debate of whether accuracy or power should be rewarded). People who execute well score. Those who don't ... don't.

If you start changing the shot every year to give one type of bowler or another an advantage, even if you rotate the advantage, you're going to estrange a large number of bowlers every year until participation dwindles.

As for the question regarding the conditions on the left - they do take into account that there are generally fewer left handers bowling when the conditions are created, tested, re-tested, re-tested, and re-tested again.

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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: ws6boi on January 27, 2006, 11:22:42 PM: Well to be hoest the shot does favor the straighter players with less revs. Yes they have to move off there normal outside line but if they can play in the middle they are deadly. The big boomers have to get deep and because of there rev rate they have to play alot deeper then the straighters but they dont have as much of the lane to play with because of the big OB they have. I remember a few years ago when a junior bowler in junior naotionals in florida led the tourny by a million( little exageration) and all he did was play straight up the middle, 19-17 all week. Just my opinion of the shot tho.
Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: TWOHAND834 on January 31, 2006, 01:02:23 AM: I agree with Andrew, actually. Every year for as long as I can remember, the shot seems to be deep inside. It is just a matter of getting the right ball in your hand. For once, I would like to see a heavier pattern to see how people would react. For the average bowler, the more inside out you tend to play, the worse off you tend to be. Looking at the PBA patterns, not every pattern calls for a 4th-5th arrow shot. Just about the highest scoring shot tends to play up the boards from the outside (Mika shooting 300, the Trussville, AL stop last week). What would happen if they put out a 42-45 foot pattern out there? There aren't too many people that would still try and play the deeper, inside line. So, I kind of agree with Andrew. It would be nice to see more versatility on the patterns they lay out.
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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: janderson on January 31, 2006, 01:45:28 PM: quote:
I agree with Andrew, actually. Every year for as long as I can remember, the shot seems to be deep inside.

For whom?

Teammates have scored well (1800+) from all parts of the lane over the years. Sure, each of us will have different experiences, but that's a pretty large generalization.
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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: JoeBowler on January 31, 2006, 01:58:20 PM: Andrew as near as I can tell you have been to only one nationals, Billings Montana where they had a good gutter shot.

What are you basing your observation on?

I agree that playing 2nd arrow is triky and not the best place to be but I saw scores shot from the 12 board to the 30 board at the arrows all depends on your stylle.

The bad part is doubles and singles depending on who you follow you can get a good look two nothing. Unless you go witha companion team trying to work together to breakdown the shot is dicy as well.
Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: DanR on February 02, 2006, 01:34:44 PM: I bowled during Eagles week and many of the better teams played up 12 and did well. Even though I can't play straight well, the better shots is to play straight. Lower rev? There's alot of diferent balls to help ones weakness of revolutions
Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: KDawg77 on February 02, 2006, 01:38:11 PM: The shot's a joke. When you allegedly have "fresh" oil and you can't get the ball to move and the bowl later the backend is wide open, they're doing something wrong. The backends are not clean/stripped or whatever you call it. The Masters two years ago was basically the same shot and the backends were better on fresh shifts.
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Title: Re: Fairness of the shot?
Post by: Gil on February 02, 2006, 01:58:59 PM: I've been going since the last time it was in Toledo,Ohio. The shot almost always is from forth arrow in, I have to play between 3 & 4 arrow. I think that Toledo, and Billings both allowed you to play outside more and the scores were higher.I belive that Billings had the most 300 ever at that time.

I go to have a good time with friends I don't see enough of, and if i bowl good that is a bonus. Will be out there on March 4th & 5th. Anyone else going to be out there that weekend?