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Author Topic: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?  (Read 4499 times)

riggs

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Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« on: May 05, 2011, 03:10:57 AM »

Here's how it can happen and what USBC says about the issue. Let's hope it happens!


http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/article_ff84330a-773f-11e0-9781-001cc4c03286.html



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riggs

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2011, 12:17:19 PM »
This is from Len Nicholson, who did lanes on the PBA Tour for years and years and has worked with Kegel for years and years and might be the pre-eminent authority on these sorts of things:

 

"Fellas,
With today's modern lane machines having the ability to clean (strip) and oil the lanes at the same time, there has been speculation that the liquid(s) used will damage the lanes.
NOT TRUE. 
This is especially true with a new installation such as the USBC Championships, since they are (more than likely) well sealed.
What is true is that water (liquids) will damage wood if left there for prolonged periods of time AND if the amount of liquids are great.
Today's machines spray a minute amount of liquid and is then quickly vacuumed up.
Len"

 

RICO, again I had no idea who you are and therefore there is no way anything could be personal. You made a statement about me just being a writer or something. Well, the thing about being a (good) journalist is that you know what you do NOT know but also how to go to those who do know so you can get the answers. I'm very fortunate to have sources like Len so I tend to research things before I write or comment. 

Beyond that, I think my resume speaks for itself ... and aside from what most bowlers know of me, I did do lanes for a few years when I was younger. Not the technology of today but I learned enough to know the basics and for everything else I go to guys like Len.

 

What I post here is for knowledge for people who read these boards -- NOTHING more.



 


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riggs

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2011, 12:24:50 PM »
If you read the two ideas I outline in my blog -- one mine and one Greg's -- you will see that both ideas have fewers squads than currently so not as much additional oiling as you fear.

Example 4 on a pair (my idea) = 6 squads so 3 more times a day oiling, not 4.

 

And if you look at the time boh ideas allot there is as much or more time overnight where there is no bowling and the squad times are stretched out so there is more padding time. Maintenance should not be an issue.

 

I also specifically asked Pete Tredwell of USBC about costs and he said they were not significant in the overall scheme of things and would not be what would stand in the way of making this move. Fresh oil for all squads will NOT make fees go up.

 

In fact, considering what happened earlier this year, I don't see fees going up anytime soon:

 

/24/11 — The 11th Frame: Entry fee won’t increase for USBC Open Championships

 

1/17/11 — The 11th Frame: Update: USBC Open Championships price hike not final yet


 

 

 

 



Balldoctor wrote on 5/10/2011 10:25 AM:
I like all fresh but it is not without potential problems.

The lane machines run 3 times a day now.

They would have to run 4 more times per day.

That is 4 more times for a problem to occur.

Less time to do the test and repair machines.

Much more manpower needed as well.

Every year they are having problems getting and keeping

qualified help.

I see bowlers fees going up if this happens.

But I still like the idea.


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riggs

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2011, 12:32:23 PM »
I would love to see topography controlled more tightly IF it were $$$$ feasible. 

Same would go for environmental factors.

A true sportsman wants as level a starting playing condition AS IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE and ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE.

 

USBC says fresh oil for all squads is economically feasible and I have shown them that it is logistically feasible.

I'd add your points if they work for sure!

But if they don't, I would sure hope that wouldn't stop them from taking the far more significant and crucial step of going to fresh oil for all squads.

 

The tournament as currently constructed has one event that starts level and three events (four if you count team all-events) that are far from it. Some bowlers get china in minors and others get a U.S. Open level shot. I've won Eagles with the former and been shut out of any chance with the latter and I really don't know which is worse -- wondering if you won because you had the right people in front of you or the feeling of having no chance at what will be the winning level of score. Both stink.

 

This is unconscionable to every true sportsman bowler ... if it's possible to be "fixed" it must be.

 

Again, you cannot let the perfect be the enemy of the very, very good. 


 



icefiction wrote on 5/10/2011 10:22 AM:
Riggs, I am assuming your last post was aimed at the question I asked you, so here is my response:

 

A level playing field as best as humanly possible, is a much to broad statement to work with. What is humanly possible for one person is not the same for the person standing next to them, so right away you have lost the level playing field. Also if you are going to go with the humanly possible concept then I am assuming you are going to want kegel to come out and run their topography machine over each lane to make sure they all have the exact same topography, then make adjustments as needed. Then we would have to make sure the atmosphere in the bowling center is regulated more tightly, along with lighting and the time of the oiling takes place.

 

So since all these things are well within human capability I am assuming these would be the least of the initial steps you would expect to see done, am I correct Riggs?






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Edited by riggs on 5/10/2011 at 12:35 PM

JustRico

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2011, 02:19:26 PM »
Riggs

I'm not here to argue...when someone says that my view is appalling I take that personal whether you or anyone else know's who I am. I believe I can relate something in such a way that it is educated and thought out whether you know me or not. I have spent my whole life in this game....on every possible side of the coin...as well as level...so when I voice my opinion on a topic...it is from years spent in this game and I'm not just pulling it out my A*S....BTW I learned quite a bit from the Phantom when I was on tour and when he was our regional director....

 

You have your opinion as do I ...and trust me, if I do not know an answer I too know who to ask....but I do have a lot of applied experience

 

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Pinbuster

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2011, 04:29:43 PM »
I personally would applaud this change.

 

Would all lanes be exactly the same? Of course not. But I can't see how they couldn't be as close as possible as long as lane conditioner has to be applied.

 

Some pairs just score better. All lane play from previous squads cannot be completely erased. Some pairs will be used more than others.

 

As mentioned in the article there would be some scheduling challenges. But as numbers continue to dwindle, particularly at Reno, they probably could reduce a squad. Or as stated they could go 6 per lane.



icefiction

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2011, 06:55:27 PM »
Riggs, now you are bringing a whole new element to the table that you left out in your article, money. At what point is something financially beneficial, is the new question that must be asked in comparison to the level playing field idea you first touched upon.






Tex

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2011, 07:50:54 PM »
Curious as to the time it takes to run the lanes before a squad now. I know our 16 lane with an older Phoenix using separate strip and clean cycles takes about 2 minutes per lane. The Sanction machines I have witnessed take about the same best I remember if not a little longer.

 

We do the separate due to the difference in ball reaction and consistency of the pattern when comparing separate or simultaneous. I don't remember ever seeing a sanction type lane machine run a seperate strip like the older Phoenix is able to do. Would the pattern be more consistent if this were possible?

 

Also,  how many different machines are currently used for one re-conditioning? How close are the patterns really between each of these machines? Seems like the more lane machines they toss into the mix, the more variations that are created. Would that be a reasonable statement?

 

One curiousity we noticed during one of the live feeds. They brought over a different machine and ran the pair that was to be on the "show". Was this a timing or did they know that machine ran a better pattern? Always wondered.

 

Just questions that all affect that level field. I would expect one less doubles and singles squad if they do the fresh every squad. They could cut the time a little if we stopped changing lanes, but the good teams could really set them selves up well for singles then.


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riggs

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2011, 03:58:58 AM »

Nothing personal Ric. You can see from the statements by Len and Bryan that they agree with me -- rather my view was their view learned from them. I think their level of expertise is unquestioned.

 

And it's also unquestionable that fresh for all squads would be miles more fair than the current situation for minors. That is not an arguable point ... not that it would create a perfect situation ... perfect is NOT possible in a world with weather and different lane surfaces and etc. and etc. But you can get a lot closer than you are now.

 



JustRico wrote on 5/10/2011 2:19 PM:
Riggs


I'm not here to argue...when someone says that my view is appalling I take that personal whether you or anyone else know's who I am. I believe I can relate something in such a way that it is educated and thought out whether you know me or not. I have spent my whole life in this game....on every possible side of the coin...as well as level...so when I voice my opinion on a topic...it is from years spent in this game and I'm not just pulling it out my A*S....BTW I learned quite a bit from the Phantom when I was on tour and when he was our regional director....


 


You have your opinion as do I ...and trust me, if I do not know an answer I too know who to ask....but I do have a lot of applied experience


 


Ric 'Rico' Hamlin


The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.


The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here:
http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/

Pinbuster

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2011, 06:35:15 AM »
I believe they have 2 machines in use now and there is about 30 to 40 minutes between the squads that oil.

 

The team event doesn't generally take the whole 80 lanes so they don't have the whole house to do.

 

I've also seen them sneak onto end pairs if the minors finish up early.

 

If they were to re-oil between every squad I believe they would need to get at least one more machine and possibly two.



riggs

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2011, 06:37:55 AM »
Stadium has 4 lanes machines in use for the tournament the last I checked.


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Balldoctor

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2011, 08:15:45 AM »
Four lane machines have been in use for several years.

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Andyman3333

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2011, 09:03:21 AM »
Not an expert on this, but wouldn't you have to double strip to remove most if not all of the memory on the lane from the previous squad.  I thought if you only did one strip and then oiled, the lane retains some memory from the previous squad. 


We re-oil between every squad in our city and state tournament (Granted its a house shot) and the late squad plays completely different than the early squad. 

 

Isn't this in some ways why the PBA runs a double strip before laying oil?  And I think even then, the lanes play different from squad to squad, day to day. 

 

I'd probably say that re-oiling prior to every squad would give the appearance of a level playing field, but would not accomplish a true level playing field.  I think creating a true level playing field is not in the cards for this game in general.  Too many factors affect lane oil and laneplay that don't directly come from cleaning and oiling a lane. 


But I'm no expert, most of what I know is from reading and studying and running a PBA Experience league for four years and explaining to people how each pair of lanes will always play a little differently than the next, how each pair of lanes holds some residue from the previous nights Neon Bowling crowd throwing plastic all night, and how the condition will never play like we see it on TV. 

 

In my own personal experience just this year, our doubles pair I thought was pretty tough.  The teams bowling prior to us were kind of playing all over the place.  We knew it was going to be tough going in and it was.  I shot 607 for doubles and we shot 1206 total.  Our singles pair looked really nice.  Other guys from our town shot 1290+ in doubles so we felt we would have a good chance to go big in singles.  And we did, with the four of us on the pair averaging 240 a game.  I racked a 752, my doubles partner shot 300/725, my other two friends shot 724 and 680 (lefty, went front 8 before leaving a nasty 9 pin).  To complete the story, the guys who moved to our doubles pair shot 1100 combined. 


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Bill Thomas

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2011, 09:36:46 AM »
Andyman,

 

I think you are right that the best way to make the conditions as equal  "as humanly possible" is to double strip each time.  If they double strip before the 7:00 am, as they do now, and single strip for each subsequent squad, in my experience there will be a difference between squads.  Not as much difference as under the current  method but a difference nonetheless.  In the house where I helped set up a Kegel Kustodian, we found a significant difference in the condition when we double stripped as opposed to a single strip. 



riggs

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2011, 04:37:40 AM »
Just a quick post of clarification:  When I write that USBC has said costs for fresh oil are not a significant factor in the overall scheme of things, I want everyone to know that that is referring to costs for OILING EXTRA TIMES ... thought that was clear from the context of the discussion and prior posts but just wanna make sure.

 

The OVERALL costs/economics is not something USBC has made a determination on ... i.e. impact on entries, potential for teams being shut out, that sort of thing.

 

Two SEPARATE issues.

 

Sorry if anyone was confused!!


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ksucat

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Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2011, 01:27:00 PM »
Being a hack who really doesn't have much of a chance at an eagle, I like the idea that I would have a closer to even playing surface to compete on. 

 

I didn't see anyone mention it, but brackets for some D/S squads can be unfair under the current system due to who bowled on previous squads.  Many people invest more in brackets than they do in entry fees.

 

No one disagrees that bowling on the burn means you may be at a huge advantage or disadvantage.  While strip/oil each squad may not be perfect, it is a step in the right direction. 

 

I'm certainly not knowledgable enough to argue here, but to those that do argue, what are better solutions?