Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: Tex on May 09, 2011, 06:47:54 PM
Mixed emotions on this for the Nats. I run two tournaments and do re-condition every squad. I do it so the D/S have the same condition and so the team event setting between the two has conditions that will last. We have 6 bowlers per pair on most pairs for one event and just 4 per pair on the other for D/S. We are also talking about doing this on a house condition, so volume is much less than Nationals and break down of the pattern occurs much faster.
So, if Nationals runs every squad. Do they just start putting out a house shot so scores will stay up or will they really run a tough condition. If they keep it wet, the lanes could still be broken down for team and scores stay up. It would just be the D/S that would get tougher and how good your singles shot would be still depends on who you follow. Those same people you follow now throwing plastic and urethane or 600 grit balls playing bad angles are still going to hose your singles event while the guy following the top guns is going to have a better shot and score. If you re-condition every squad should they also consider not switching lanes like many of the amatuer events have done, so you are not affected by anyone but yourself? That is how most of the events in Texas, including mine, do it now. Speeds up the squad and if you get a bad pair or make it bad, you live with it for all six games.
One thing it would do. You then would not have to worry about which D/S squad you bowl. Right now our number 1 choice is 5:30 and #2 is 11:30 pm... After teams have broken down the pattern. That way if you catch that good team in front of you, cashing in the tournament and brackets gets easier. Just common sense to me and look at where the big guns roll.
Roll with 900 Global.
Made in Texas!
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: JustRico on May 09, 2011, 07:04:11 PM
Fresh oil does NOT level the playing field or makes it fairer...you still have too many variables. Oiling them every squad can actually make them tougher due to the fronts disappaiting quicker and not getting off all the conditioner off the back part of the lane. Also you have residual friction or heat on the lane and that will make them lose oil in the fronts quicker....so oiling every squad is not a good thing.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: tburky on May 09, 2011, 07:21:09 PM
only one way to find that out and it is to just do it and see what the scoring pace ends up. they may transition quicker and get tighter down lane.
Edited by tburky on 5/9/2011 at 7:25 PM
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: psaunders300 on May 09, 2011, 07:22:09 PM
Rico, Just curious why do you think this? Your statements do not back up your thinking. If a team in front of me opens up the lanes for my S&D then I now have an advantage. The lanes are now easier for me to score on than if I had a fresh shot. The opposite is true as well if a team in front of my S&D blows up the shot I have no chance of scoring.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: JustRico on May 09, 2011, 07:46:01 PM
Ok so my remarks DO back up my thinking...I just gave you why reoiling every squad...possibly what 5-6 times a day is bad...have you ever bowled at your center on a normal basis...have them re-oil once a day MORE for a week and just see how much different they are...just adding one re-oil.
Now the flip side, if you get a team of 5 (10 on the pair) that is throwing sanded heavy grit equipment, they will blow the front open as well as creating a lot more abnormal friction in the front part of the lane. If you come on after them, yes they may be tough but you can more than likely use smoother surface equipment and play the track.
But instead you re-oil and all that will do is remove more of the oil that is in the fronts and by adding oil on top of the burned fronts will only make they disappaite quicker and if the lane is not COMPLETELY stripped (which it won't be) of all the oil, conditioner will be left in the middles, as well as the back part of the lane...earlier hook and carry down as the days go on...
You have obviously not bowled in a tournament that strips the lanes that many times a day for that long of a period of time. Conditioner is placed on the lane to protect the surface...you strip them that much all you will accomplish is softening the front part of the lane and as the event goes on, the scores will go down. It's a plastic surface...it will burn.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: icefiction on May 09, 2011, 08:09:52 PM
Rico, what in your opinion would be the fairest setup for a large scale and large time frame tournament like this?
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: JustRico on May 09, 2011, 08:21:07 PM
Honestly you are never going to have a fair situation....but in all honestly, when I bowled this event...you had fresh oil squads and break down squads and they were back to back. You either bowled team event on fresh or the squad after. Same with dbls & sngls...you had 2 squads of fresh and similar with break down. You knew what you were getting and everyone was fine with it.
The PBA went to fresh oil both sqauds...that does not create squad equity. There are too many variables. Who is in front of you. Where they start as opposed to where you start. What you use as opposed to what you use from the start. Rev rates.
No matter what you do you are never going to appease everyone.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: icefiction on May 09, 2011, 08:26:08 PM
So how did the whole move lanes after each game thing get started, cause it kind of seems like the only fairish way is each person gets their own lane and bowls their set amount of games and thats it?
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: Russell on May 09, 2011, 09:30:53 PM
Im okay with this personally as long as they give adequate time to warm up for d/s. I'm sure USBC will do everything but that, and people likee me will continue to shoot 540 every year trying to get comfortable.
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: psaunders300 on May 10, 2011, 04:52:39 AM
Rico, they already oil the lanes at the USBC tourney 3 times a day. What I am wondering is why you think reoiling them several more times a day would make that much of a difference? I have bowled in the USBC for many years (including at all times from the fresh 7 AM S&D squad to the 11:40 NOT fresh S&D squad) and many other tounaments with various oiling schedules including PBA events. In addition I bowl in PBA leagues where the lanes are reoiled several times a day so I have some experience with this. I think having a fresh shot will be better than the schedule for oiling that is in place now because everyone will have the same shot to start for each event.
We can agree to dis-agree and I am fine with that, and I appreciate you comments and opinion, thank you for your perspective!
I am also going to ask several friends that are laneman at three different houses that I bowl at and see what they think because now you've got me curious... ;)
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 10, 2011, 06:31:01 AM
RICO, nothing personal but I can't say it any other way except that the amount of mis-information in your statements is so appalling I wouldn't even know how to address it all.
One thing that IS CERTAIN is that for every squad they re-oil the lanes WILL BE COMPLETELY STRIPPED. This is done for every oiling now (twice before the 7 a.m. squad when they have time overnight) and it will be done for every oiling if they go to all fresh.
To compare a PBA event where people move pairs every game to the USBC Open Championships is nonsensical.
Sigh.
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 10, 2011, 06:32:21 AM
It is NOT about whether scores are higher or lower. It IS about having a level playing field STARTING every squad of every event for every player as best as is humanly possible.
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: JustRico on May 10, 2011, 06:51:00 AM
Riggs
Since you have so eloquently stated
'nothing personal but I can't say it any other way except that the amount of mis-information in your statements is so appalling I wouldn't even know how to address it all'
I would really like you to address it....I have quite a bit of experience in areas where tournaments have been ran where the lanes are stripped more than the bowling center is used to and it is quite interesting how the lanes respond. When a center or lane bed is used to be stripped a certain amount of times...it creates a memory. When you change that, it effects the lane surface as well as the characteristics of the lanes.
On top of that, when you oiling and stripping a lane at the rate USBC will be, they will not remove all the conditioner on the lanes throughout the day. It will NOT be a level playing field, as the day goes on as well as the tournament goes on.
Now if you want to merely leave it as your blanket statement...fine. I will refrain from making this a personal attack on you, which is what your statement is on me....I have a fairly extensive background other than merely writing an article and reporting what others write....
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 10, 2011, 07:03:13 AM
I said there was misinformation in your STATEMENTS ... I didn't say you were stupid or anything like tha. I don't know you and have no idea who you are or your background. You just need to be more educated in these matters. Sorry but that's the truth.
Call up a PBA lane man or a USBC lane man and talk to them, as I have.
There is FAR MORE damage done to a lane to have it bowled on multiple shifts without oiling where today's balls remove a swath of oil and then shots are continually thrown on the lane than to have it cleaned and re-oiled. Oil protects the lane from the ball -- when it's transitioned off the lane is when it's vulnerable. Every expert I have ever talked to has said cleaning the lane is not a significant factor compared to bowling itself.
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 10, 2011, 07:08:03 AM
This that you said:
"On top of that, when you oiling and stripping a lane at the rate USBC will be, they will not remove all the conditioner on the lanes throughout the day. It will NOT be a level playing field, as the day goes on as well as the tournament goes on."
Is true but again my statement is a level playing field as BEST AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE. Perhaps a new schedule will make it possible to double strip every time they oil, which would make it a essentially pristine surface each shift.
But even if they don't a simple strip and re-oil before every squad is FAR MORE FAIR than squads following squads without re-oiling. Bowler A's group bowls minors after our team vs. Bowler B after a group of Classified bowlers throwing plastic all over the lane. Any fairness there?
My gawd man. You can't possibly argue against fresh oil for every squad if your primary goal for this tournament is equity for all competitors AS BEST AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.
That is absolute ignorance and if you take that as a personal attack, I'm sorry, but it's reality.
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Edited by riggs on 5/10/2011 at 7:11 AM
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: Nails on May 10, 2011, 07:19:22 AM
If the lane machine isn't capable of stripping the lane properly, it shouldn't be used period, whether it's once a day or 6 times a day.
Telling it like it is.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 10, 2011, 07:35:50 AM
Nails, it is a matter of degree. One strip and re-oil comes very, very close to eliminating all pattern memory. Double stripping removes ALL pattern memory.
This is a far greater issue when it's tough pattern (like PBA) over a house shot. It is less of an issue when you are applying the same pattern squad after squad.
And not stripping would be a disaster and not feasible = dirt, ball calls, an totally ridiculous condition, and zero equity.
It needs to be understood that the goal is equity for all as MUCH AS IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE. The situation now is grossly unfair for minor events. Strip and re-oil for every squad is about 99 percent fair where double strip and re-oil would be 100 percent fair as MUCH AS IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.
You can't let the perfect be the enemy of the very, very good when what we have now is horrendously unfair!!!
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on May 10, 2011, 08:02:48 AM
I'm just a public school graduate, and a novice bowler, but I would have thought this news would have been met with widespread elation.
Will the conditions be EXACTLY the same throughout the entire D/S squads? No. To what variance the conditions will differ would require a topographic reading from every board, lane, and squad. Maybe Kegel can incorporate something over the next few seasons into the oiling machines to monitor that as the lanes are dressed.
Will the conditions be INFINITELY more similar and equitable for ALL bowlers? How in the world can the answer to that question be, "yes"?
Return with your shield or on it. Strength and honor. Help control the population of Avenging Unicorns. Arm yourselves accordingly. MTIXE
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 10, 2011, 08:12:00 AM
This is from Bryan Hill, who was PBA Midwest Region lane man for several years before PBA ended its regional lane man program as a budget cut and who also was a proprietor:
"I have been to seminars that told of slow deterioration of surfaces over many years due to detergents, however, I would much rather take my chances with the cleaning and re-oiling for all squads as opposed to the abrasive damage that can and will occur with the current ball surfaces. Another argument for cleaning and re-oiling is dust and dirt. The average human body releases approximately 2# of dead skin cells per day. The longer the lanes sit with dust and dirt, the more abrasive the situation will get. Just the knowledge I have accrued. And a bit of my personal opinion."
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: icefiction on May 10, 2011, 08:12:23 AM
I am afraid I must agree with Rico on this one, having oiled lanes myself at centers I have worked at and having spent time a Kegel with their staff, I know that certain lanes can be stripped twice and still leave a residue of oil on the surface in certain areas of the lane. I saw and was told of this at the Kegel facility so I would have to put some factual basis behind that statement. Also having bowled and run the lanes at Morehead State University for a couple of years I speak from experience of oiling and stripping sometimes six to ten times in one day and putting out the same pattern, and it will play differently because of the memory built into the lane and the lane machine.
Hence my comment in an earlier post, if level is such an issue then we should all bowl on our own freshly oiled lane.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on May 10, 2011, 08:43:49 AM
Matt Weggen, current AE leader @ the OC in Reno shot something like 640-ish in team, on fresh, the day before he shot back-to-back 800's in minors....WITH THE SAME BALL. Nobody's expecting the shot to remain IDENTICAL for Team vs. Minors for every lane, foot, board, and squad throughout the tournament, but can anyone actually say that those two shots Weggen bowled on were so far removed from any discrepancy that could have been created with something like some lane residue from stripping agents that might have lost some of their overall effectiveness due to lane memory?
Return with your shield or on it. Strength and honor. Help control the population of Avenging Unicorns. Arm yourselves accordingly. MTIXE
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 10, 2011, 09:00:42 AM
AGAIN we're talking about as level a paying field as is HUMANLY POSSIBLE. It is NOT POSSIBLE to have every fresly oiled lane play exactly the same day to day in a center even with a computerized lane machine and no one with any knowledge of the game would ever say so.
AGAIN, do not let the perfect be the enemy of the very, very good.
Heck, once a lane has been touched with any oil I would wager that you could clean it 1,000 times and probably find some molecules of oil on it so therefore there is memory.
So why ever strip? And why ever oil?
Sigh.
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: icefiction on May 10, 2011, 09:22:39 AM
Agreed Riggs. But how do you quantify Very, Very Good. That is the whole issue regarding lane conditions and variables, if you can not clearly define and quantify them than everything regarding them becomes opinion or estimates or guesses or etc..
Edited by icefiction on 5/10/2011 at 9:28 AM
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 10, 2011, 10:09:28 AM
A level playing field to start for all AS BEST AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.
Read the blog that started this topic and it's all there.
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: on May 10, 2011, 10:12:55 AM
I can see and understand both sides of this issue. Both sides seem to agree that perfect is really not going to happen. Although the perfect situation will never exist, why not try to improve the current procedure?
If the proposed new procedures help to level the playing field, then it should be a step in the right direction. Again, maybe a completely level playing field isn't possible, but as it stands if you follow the wrong group of bowlers it can make a difficult pattern very difficult. It happened to me a few years back, and I vowed to never again bowl that (11:30am) minors squad again. The heads were scorched and the back ends were extremely touchy between washout or Brooklyn (or worse). Other bowlers on the same squad who followed different groups had a lot of "forgiveness" on the lanes and were scoring well. I had to compete against them in brackets as well as the regular tournament competition.
The Open is fun for me. I like the challenge of a more demanding shot, as long as the people I am competing against have the same demanding condition to start with. If they are adept at creating area for themselves on the lanes, then great. The Open also can be quite expensive by the time you add the entry fee, travel costs, hotel costs, meals, souvenirs, you name it. If there is a way to find equity on the lanes then I am for it.
Again. Granted that even with fresh oil it isn't a perfect situation, if it is a step in the right direction then why not give it a try? If it does not accomplish it's goal, the USBC can scrap it and go back to the current procedures, or anything else they can think of between now and then. I am not taking sides on this issue, except to say what have we got to lose by trying it?
Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: Balldoctor on May 10, 2011, 10:14:38 AM
Good discussion, don't let it become personal.
Riggs, perhaps you could interview Rico.
That could be informative and entertaining.
Remember, ALL BOWLING IS LOCAL!
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: icefiction on May 10, 2011, 10:22:39 AM
Riggs, I am assuming your last post was aimed at the question I asked you, so here is my response:
A level playing field as best as humanly possible, is a much to broad statement to work with. What is humanly possible for one person is not the same for the person standing next to them, so right away you have lost the level playing field. Also if you are going to go with the humanly possible concept then I am assuming you are going to want kegel to come out and run their topography machine over each lane to make sure they all have the exact same topography, then make adjustments as needed. Then we would have to make sure the atmosphere in the bowling center is regulated more tightly, along with lighting and the time of the oiling takes place.
So since all these things are well within human capability I am assuming these would be the least of the initial steps you would expect to see done, am I correct Riggs?
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: Balldoctor on May 10, 2011, 10:25:13 AM
I like all fresh but it is not without potential problems.
The lane machines run 3 times a day now.
They would have to run 4 more times per day.
That is 4 more times for a problem to occur.
Less time to do the test and repair machines.
Much more manpower needed as well.
Every year they are having problems getting and keeping
qualified help.
I see bowlers fees going up if this happens.
But I still like the idea.
Remember, ALL BOWLING IS LOCAL!
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 10, 2011, 12:17:19 PM
This is from Len Nicholson, who did lanes on the PBA Tour for years and years and has worked with Kegel for years and years and might be the pre-eminent authority on these sorts of things:
"Fellas, With today's modern lane machines having the ability to clean (strip) and oil the lanes at the same time, there has been speculation that the liquid(s) used will damage the lanes. NOT TRUE. This is especially true with a new installation such as the USBC Championships, since they are (more than likely) well sealed. What is true is that water (liquids) will damage wood if left there for prolonged periods of time AND if the amount of liquids are great. Today's machines spray a minute amount of liquid and is then quickly vacuumed up. Len"
RICO, again I had no idea who you are and therefore there is no way anything could be personal. You made a statement about me just being a writer or something. Well, the thing about being a (good) journalist is that you know what you do NOT know but also how to go to those who do know so you can get the answers. I'm very fortunate to have sources like Len so I tend to research things before I write or comment.
Beyond that, I think my resume speaks for itself ... and aside from what most bowlers know of me, I did do lanes for a few years when I was younger. Not the technology of today but I learned enough to know the basics and for everything else I go to guys like Len.
What I post here is for knowledge for people who read these boards -- NOTHING more.
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 10, 2011, 12:24:50 PM
If you read the two ideas I outline in my blog -- one mine and one Greg's -- you will see that both ideas have fewers squads than currently so not as much additional oiling as you fear.
Example 4 on a pair (my idea) = 6 squads so 3 more times a day oiling, not 4.
And if you look at the time boh ideas allot there is as much or more time overnight where there is no bowling and the squad times are stretched out so there is more padding time. Maintenance should not be an issue.
I also specifically asked Pete Tredwell of USBC about costs and he said they were not significant in the overall scheme of things and would not be what would stand in the way of making this move. Fresh oil for all squads will NOT make fees go up.
In fact, considering what happened earlier this year, I don't see fees going up anytime soon:
/24/11 — The 11th Frame: Entry fee won’t increase for USBC Open Championships
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 10, 2011, 12:32:23 PM
I would love to see topography controlled more tightly IF it were $$$$ feasible.
Same would go for environmental factors.
A true sportsman wants as level a starting playing condition AS IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE and ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE.
USBC says fresh oil for all squads is economically feasible and I have shown them that it is logistically feasible.
I'd add your points if they work for sure!
But if they don't, I would sure hope that wouldn't stop them from taking the far more significant and crucial step of going to fresh oil for all squads.
The tournament as currently constructed has one event that starts level and three events (four if you count team all-events) that are far from it. Some bowlers get china in minors and others get a U.S. Open level shot. I've won Eagles with the former and been shut out of any chance with the latter and I really don't know which is worse -- wondering if you won because you had the right people in front of you or the feeling of having no chance at what will be the winning level of score. Both stink.
This is unconscionable to every true sportsman bowler ... if it's possible to be "fixed" it must be.
Again, you cannot let the perfect be the enemy of the very, very good.
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Edited by riggs on 5/10/2011 at 12:35 PM
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: JustRico on May 10, 2011, 02:19:26 PM
Riggs
I'm not here to argue...when someone says that my view is appalling I take that personal whether you or anyone else know's who I am. I believe I can relate something in such a way that it is educated and thought out whether you know me or not. I have spent my whole life in this game....on every possible side of the coin...as well as level...so when I voice my opinion on a topic...it is from years spent in this game and I'm not just pulling it out my A*S....BTW I learned quite a bit from the Phantom when I was on tour and when he was our regional director....
You have your opinion as do I ...and trust me, if I do not know an answer I too know who to ask....but I do have a lot of applied experience
Ric 'Rico' Hamlin
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: Pinbuster on May 10, 2011, 04:29:43 PM
I personally would applaud this change.
Would all lanes be exactly the same? Of course not. But I can't see how they couldn't be as close as possible as long as lane conditioner has to be applied.
Some pairs just score better. All lane play from previous squads cannot be completely erased. Some pairs will be used more than others.
As mentioned in the article there would be some scheduling challenges. But as numbers continue to dwindle, particularly at Reno, they probably could reduce a squad. Or as stated they could go 6 per lane.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: icefiction on May 10, 2011, 06:55:27 PM
Riggs, now you are bringing a whole new element to the table that you left out in your article, money. At what point is something financially beneficial, is the new question that must be asked in comparison to the level playing field idea you first touched upon.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: Tex on May 10, 2011, 07:50:54 PM
Curious as to the time it takes to run the lanes before a squad now. I know our 16 lane with an older Phoenix using separate strip and clean cycles takes about 2 minutes per lane. The Sanction machines I have witnessed take about the same best I remember if not a little longer.
We do the separate due to the difference in ball reaction and consistency of the pattern when comparing separate or simultaneous. I don't remember ever seeing a sanction type lane machine run a seperate strip like the older Phoenix is able to do. Would the pattern be more consistent if this were possible?
Also, how many different machines are currently used for one re-conditioning? How close are the patterns really between each of these machines? Seems like the more lane machines they toss into the mix, the more variations that are created. Would that be a reasonable statement?
One curiousity we noticed during one of the live feeds. They brought over a different machine and ran the pair that was to be on the "show". Was this a timing or did they know that machine ran a better pattern? Always wondered.
Just questions that all affect that level field. I would expect one less doubles and singles squad if they do the fresh every squad. They could cut the time a little if we stopped changing lanes, but the good teams could really set them selves up well for singles then.
Roll with 900 Global.
Made in Texas!
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 11, 2011, 03:58:58 AM
Nothing personal Ric. You can see from the statements by Len and Bryan that they agree with me -- rather my view was their view learned from them. I think their level of expertise is unquestioned.
And it's also unquestionable that fresh for all squads would be miles more fair than the current situation for minors. That is not an arguable point ... not that it would create a perfect situation ... perfect is NOT possible in a world with weather and different lane surfaces and etc. and etc. But you can get a lot closer than you are now.
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: Pinbuster on May 11, 2011, 06:35:15 AM
I believe they have 2 machines in use now and there is about 30 to 40 minutes between the squads that oil.
The team event doesn't generally take the whole 80 lanes so they don't have the whole house to do.
I've also seen them sneak onto end pairs if the minors finish up early.
If they were to re-oil between every squad I believe they would need to get at least one more machine and possibly two.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 11, 2011, 06:37:55 AM
Stadium has 4 lanes machines in use for the tournament the last I checked.
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Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: Balldoctor on May 11, 2011, 08:15:45 AM
Four lane machines have been in use for several years.
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Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: Andyman3333 on May 11, 2011, 09:03:21 AM
Not an expert on this, but wouldn't you have to double strip to remove most if not all of the memory on the lane from the previous squad. I thought if you only did one strip and then oiled, the lane retains some memory from the previous squad.
We re-oil between every squad in our city and state tournament (Granted its a house shot) and the late squad plays completely different than the early squad.
Isn't this in some ways why the PBA runs a double strip before laying oil? And I think even then, the lanes play different from squad to squad, day to day.
I'd probably say that re-oiling prior to every squad would give the appearance of a level playing field, but would not accomplish a true level playing field. I think creating a true level playing field is not in the cards for this game in general. Too many factors affect lane oil and laneplay that don't directly come from cleaning and oiling a lane.
But I'm no expert, most of what I know is from reading and studying and running a PBA Experience league for four years and explaining to people how each pair of lanes will always play a little differently than the next, how each pair of lanes holds some residue from the previous nights Neon Bowling crowd throwing plastic all night, and how the condition will never play like we see it on TV.
In my own personal experience just this year, our doubles pair I thought was pretty tough. The teams bowling prior to us were kind of playing all over the place. We knew it was going to be tough going in and it was. I shot 607 for doubles and we shot 1206 total. Our singles pair looked really nice. Other guys from our town shot 1290+ in doubles so we felt we would have a good chance to go big in singles. And we did, with the four of us on the pair averaging 240 a game. I racked a 752, my doubles partner shot 300/725, my other two friends shot 724 and 680 (lefty, went front 8 before leaving a nasty 9 pin). To complete the story, the guys who moved to our doubles pair shot 1100 combined.
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Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: Bill Thomas on May 11, 2011, 09:36:46 AM
Andyman,
I think you are right that the best way to make the conditions as equal "as humanly possible" is to double strip each time. If they double strip before the 7:00 am, as they do now, and single strip for each subsequent squad, in my experience there will be a difference between squads. Not as much difference as under the current method but a difference nonetheless. In the house where I helped set up a Kegel Kustodian, we found a significant difference in the condition when we double stripped as opposed to a single strip.
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: riggs on May 13, 2011, 04:37:40 AM
Just a quick post of clarification: When I write that USBC has said costs for fresh oil are not a significant factor in the overall scheme of things, I want everyone to know that that is referring to costs for OILING EXTRA TIMES ... thought that was clear from the context of the discussion and prior posts but just wanna make sure.
The OVERALL costs/economics is not something USBC has made a determination on ... i.e. impact on entries, potential for teams being shut out, that sort of thing.
Two SEPARATE issues.
Sorry if anyone was confused!!
The No. 1 source for bowling news, analysis and opinion is my blog, The 11th Frame, which is here: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/bowling/
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: ksucat on May 17, 2011, 01:27:00 PM
Being a hack who really doesn't have much of a chance at an eagle, I like the idea that I would have a closer to even playing surface to compete on.
I didn't see anyone mention it, but brackets for some D/S squads can be unfair under the current system due to who bowled on previous squads. Many people invest more in brackets than they do in entry fees.
No one disagrees that bowling on the burn means you may be at a huge advantage or disadvantage. While strip/oil each squad may not be perfect, it is a step in the right direction.
I'm certainly not knowledgable enough to argue here, but to those that do argue, what are better solutions?
Title: Re: Fresh oil for all events starting in 2013?
Post by: greekchurch on May 18, 2011, 12:15:39 PM
Man, you guys really know how to keep one reading on. Riggs, I really appreciate your honesty regarding the championships you've won and the condition's associated with them at the time. To me this speaks volumes and I doubt many others will publicly say what you have.
In regards to the issue at hand, I think all of the comments in this blog are valid to a degree. Your point about fairness and equal (as humanly possible) should be the first thing that would catch any competive bowlers eye. Why would we, as competitors, want anything else. I think some on here like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. In our present day world, it just seems as though we are trying to take the "human" out of a lot of our every day lives but I understand what point you were trying to get make.
I've been going to the Nationals for 23 years and have tried to move and fit my teams to provide them with the best chance of fulfilling the goal of an eagle. Most of that effort is centered around the minor events which for the most part is really a crap shoot. Trying to follow team event for minors is all well and good unless you catch a classified team or like what we are seeing more and more in Reno with fewer teams, bowling on fresh for your minors @ 5:30 or @ 11:30. In fact, I do believe this year that there were some days with no 11:30pm minors and the bowlers at 9:20am got fresh because the 7:00am was not full.
Like what was said earlier, having all the squads with fresh (with perhaps slight differences due to stripping) has got to be closer to fairer than coming in and find that you might follow those with a clue, those that have no clue or follow no bowlers at all. Unfortunately most have more than likely experienced the last two or experienced what I stated above.
Hopefully USBC will take all suggestions. Perhaps if they can't double strip every squad, than alternate or at least before each team event or something. Being from the east coast, coming to Reno is wearing thinner and thinner. I love this sport and will continue to attend as long as I am physically able but perhaps this could be the shot in the arm that sparks renewed interest in our National tournament.