BallReviews
General Category => USBC Tournament => Topic started by: Radical In RI on October 27, 2015, 10:53:22 AM
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http://bowl.com/News/NewsDetails.aspx?id=23622325499 (http://bowl.com/News/NewsDetails.aspx?id=23622325499)
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AMEN
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I think the changes are GREAT and long overdue.
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Let the sandbagging begin... ;D
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not a fan of the division change. All that is saying is "hey, I can't compete with the best so make it so I don't have to." To me this devalues the eagle a little.
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USBC also will discontinue providing information about lane-play strategies, including BowlTV live streaming of complete games and fixed live webcams at the event.
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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ARLINGTON, Texas – When the United States Bowling Congress Open Championships heads to Las Vegas in 2017, the storied event will have several enhancements, highlighted by a new divisional structure.
The new elements for the event come from recommendations of a task force comprised of tournament participants, volunteer leaders and staff. The task force used surveys of bowlers and historical data from the event to make recommendations to the USBC Board, which approved the new components.
The USBC Open Championships also will have adjustments made to policies concerning professional bowlers, scale-room procedures and announcement of lane conditions.
“We are proud of the process that led to creating the future of the USBC Open Championships,†USBC Executive Director Chad Murphy said. “Our customers have been asking for improvements to this event, so we assembled a diverse task force with significant bowler input and came together with a clear consensus on how to move forward.â€
The 2017 tournament will feature a new division called the Standard Division for bowlers with entering averages of 181-209. The Regular Division now will be for bowlers with averages of 210 and above, while the Classified Division remains for bowlers who have averages of 180 and below.
All three divisions will have team, doubles, singles and optional all-events, with combined entering averages being used for team and doubles placement.
“Research and feedback showed the task force that our largest demographic at the Open Championships wanted a better experience,†Murphy said. “The 190- or 200-average league bowler wants to compete against others of similar skill. The current scoring gap between the top and bottom half of the Regular Division is not an ideal peer-to-peer competition.â€
The task force also recommended a series of adjustments to improve the integrity and fairness of the Open Championships. Starting in 2017, USBC will not publish the lane patterns until after the event. USBC also will discontinue providing information about lane-play strategies, including BowlTV live streaming of complete games and fixed live webcams at the event.
“The task force unanimously agreed that having access to the lane pattern provides an unquestionable advantage to bowlers with access to modern lane machines and centers closely matching the Open Championships lane surface,†Murphy said. “Success in USBC Championships should be based on the skill of the bowler, not whether you live near the right facility or have the resources to build arsenals to match a pattern. This change moves the keys to success back to shot-making and skill, rather than personal resources.â€
Part of the more than 110 years of history and tradition at the Open Championships is a focus on equipment integrity, which includes weighing and checking every bowling ball used on the tournament lanes. In 2017, all equipment will be weighed and checked prior to both team and doubles/singles competition.
The task force also recommended making the Open Championships an event fully open to professional bowlers. In 2017, all professional bowlers will be able to compete, within parameters, and only in the Regular Division. The parameters include limits on the number of Professional Bowlers Association (PBA) and Professional Women’s Bowling Association (PWBA) national title holders who may compete on the same team.
The new rules, policies and procedures do not impact the 2016 tournament at the National Bowling Stadium in Reno, Nevada.
In light of the task force recommendations, USBC will implement some additional policy changes as well.
Effective Jan. 1, 2016, USBC national headquarters employees and Championships tournament staff no longer will be eligible to receive prize money, bracket winnings or awards from USBC national events due to USBC’s conflict-of-interest policy.
Starting in 2017, the USBC Women’s Championships oil pattern also will not be published until after the event concludes.
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I understand the added division. These trips are expensive, you have to give people a reason to go. That said, i also agree it devalues the eagle. The easy fix would be to make the eagle only a prize for the top division, with a lesser title established for lower divisions.
The only bummer, to me, is losing the live streams. I really enjoyed watching those the last two years.
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not a fan of the division change. All that is saying is "hey, I can't compete with the best so make it so I don't have to." To me this devalues the eagle a little.
I am on the other side of this debate. What motivation does the 181-200 avg bowler have to show up that in no way can shoot scores on their house shot that would give them a chance to compete much less on the Open pattern. It can't hurt attendance. I would like to see them give an optional checkbox that gives you the right to choose to compete on the top level if desired, but am otherwise good with that change.
not a fan of them not releasing the pattern, though I never practiced on it, and it will get leaked at some point anyway.
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I like the changes.
Hope 4 man teams come sooner then later.
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I like the changes.
Hope 4 man teams come sooner then later.
Amen to that. I usually put together multiple teams each year and it's a pain in the ass to match up that one odd bowler if you don't have an even number.
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I like the changes.
Hope 4 man teams come sooner then later.
Amen to that. I usually put together multiple teams each year and it's a pain in the ass to match up that one odd bowler if you don't have an even number.
Exactly. Also speeds up the bowling
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I like the changes.
Hope 4 man teams come sooner then later.
I hope it goes to 4 man teams by 2018. It's just a lot easier to do 4 man teams vs 5. I don't mind the changes, except I liked having the live streams to watch.
I'm fine with them not releasing the pattern info, but it affects those who have to travel by plane. A lot of people took a limited arsenal based on the pattern, so now they're going to have to guess on which balls to take or take all of them which means a greater cost.
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REALLY sucks not having the live streams anymore. I enjoyed watching those.
I guess the Showcase Lanes will still be there, so practice would be available?
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REALLY sucks not having the live streams anymore. I enjoyed watching those.
I guess the Showcase Lanes will still be there, so practice would be available?
You can count on that. How else will you know what ball to buy from the vendors?
I'm sure there was some input from them on this...
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not a fan of the division change. All that is saying is "hey, I can't compete with the best so make it so I don't have to." To me this devalues the eagle a little.
I am on the other side of this debate. What motivation does the 181-200 avg bowler have to show up that in no way can shoot scores on their house shot that would give them a chance to compete much less on the Open pattern. It can't hurt attendance. I would like to see them give an optional checkbox that gives you the right to choose to compete on the top level if desired, but am otherwise good with that change.
not a fan of them not releasing the pattern, though I never practiced on it, and it will get leaked at some point anyway.
I can definitely see how the divisions should allow larger number of bowlers to be able to compete for the trophy, but as milorafferty noted, it will also bring the sandbagging cockroaches out from under the fridge. Wouldn't be surprised if top scores for the Regular and Standard divisions are about the same.
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You would have to sandbag for 3-4 years . The usb started checking for sandbagged a couple years ago. My dad's average has dropped from 2+ to low 170 because of health issues . This past year he was still in the regular division because they used his average from the past years .
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not a fan of the division change. All that is saying is "hey, I can't compete with the best so make it so I don't have to." To me this devalues the eagle a little.
I am on the other side of this debate. What motivation does the 181-200 avg bowler have to show up that in no way can shoot scores on their house shot that would give them a chance to compete much less on the Open pattern. It can't hurt attendance. I would like to see them give an optional checkbox that gives you the right to choose to compete on the top level if desired, but am otherwise good with that change.
not a fan of them not releasing the pattern, though I never practiced on it, and it will get leaked at some point anyway.
I can buy that argument. I also would like the pattern divulged early. I to did not practice on it prior as you cannot duplicate it anyway. It would be nice to have an idea of what equipment to bring. Cannot bring the same stuff for a 36' pattern as a 44' pattern normally.
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I understand the added division. These trips are expensive, you have to give people a reason to go. That said, i also agree it devalues the eagle. The easy fix would be to make the eagle only a prize for the top division, with a lesser title established for lower divisions.
The only bummer, to me, is losing the live streams. I really enjoyed watching those the last two years.
I like this idea!
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8 balls may not be enough to bring along without prior knowledge of the lane pattern. BTW, those better bowlers that go later will have an even bigger advantage as they will have seen months of play prior to bowling and will still have a good idea of how to play. They may win by an even larger margin. :-)
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My question is how will this play into brackets? This is where most of my profit comes from. And if there is now a separate division that takes those players away then there is no way you could hit the all button and expect there to be $1600 in brackets in the squad.
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My question is how will this play into brackets? This is where most of my profit comes from. And if there is now a separate division that takes those players away then there is no way you could hit the all button and expect there to be $1600 in brackets in the squad.
Brackets are by division currently, so you will have less small fry to feed upon when they they dilute the waters further.
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My question is how will this play into brackets? This is where most of my profit comes from. And if there is now a separate division that takes those players away then there is no way you could hit the all button and expect there to be $1600 in brackets in the squad.
Plus the tournament pay out will be diluted.
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Okay.. be it me to read way too much into things.. but from their press release:
The task force also recommended a series of adjustments to improve the integrity and fairness of the Open Championships. Starting in 2017, USBC will not publish the lane patterns until after the event. USBC also will discontinue providing information about lane-play strategies, including BowlTV live streaming of complete games and fixed live webcams at the event.
However, from their FAQ (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/tournaments/pdfs/usbcopenchamp/2017/2017OCFAQ.pdf):
2017 Tournament
- Three Divisions: Regular: 210 average and above; Standard: 181-209 average; Classified: 180 average and below
- Bowling balls checked in scale room prior to team and doubles/singles squads
- Lane pattern not published until after event
- USBC will not show video of complete team games or provide any lane play information
- Professional bowlers eligible with team restrictions
- USBC national headquarters employees and tournament employees will not be eligible for, or have their scores contribute to winning prize money, brackets, side pots or awards. (This rule is effective starting in 2016)/li]
Bold and underlined for emphasis. This tells me that team wouldn't be streamed, but wouldn't that leave the possibility for minors to be streamed?
BL.
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Okay.. be it me to read way too much into things.. but from their press release:
The task force also recommended a series of adjustments to improve the integrity and fairness of the Open Championships. Starting in 2017, USBC will not publish the lane patterns until after the event. USBC also will discontinue providing information about lane-play strategies, including BowlTV live streaming of complete games and fixed live webcams at the event.
However, from their FAQ (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/tournaments/pdfs/usbcopenchamp/2017/2017OCFAQ.pdf):
2017 Tournament
- Three Divisions: Regular: 210 average and above; Standard: 181-209 average; Classified: 180 average and below
- Bowling balls checked in scale room prior to team and doubles/singles squads
- Lane pattern not published until after event
- USBC will not show video of complete team games or provide any lane play information
- Professional bowlers eligible with team restrictions
- USBC national headquarters employees and tournament employees will not be eligible for, or have their scores contribute to winning prize money, brackets, side pots or awards. (This rule is effective starting in 2016)/li]
Bold and underlined for emphasis. This tells me that team wouldn't be streamed, but wouldn't that leave the possibility for minors to be streamed?
BL.
I read into it to say it will show some team, but not complete team games. That's the exact words.
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I wonder how much a cut USBC gets from the ball sales from the vendors. If they do get money I imagine some people will drill on site since the pattern is not known...more money for usbc. I see nothing wrong with giving the distance and volume and show graphs. They don't have to show machine settings or tell the type of oil. Nothing is ever a secret...the pattern will somehow be leaked.
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I agree with the changes. I agree that eagles would be devalued if they are given to every division. I don't mind if they give eagles for the top division only and trophies for the other divisions. If someone would like to shoot for an eagle don't submit averages and you should be in the top division.
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not a fan of the division change. All that is saying is "hey, I can't compete with the best so make it so I don't have to." To me this devalues the eagle a little.
What? This makes the eagle that much more special. The pool you must defeat is much stronger.
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My question is how will this play into brackets? This is where most of my profit comes from. And if there is now a separate division that takes those players away then there is no way you could hit the all button and expect there to be $1600 in brackets in the squad.
Heres the real rub, the sharks are butt hurt they no longer have minnows to feast on. I say about damn time.
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My question is how will this play into brackets? This is where most of my profit comes from. And if there is now a separate division that takes those players away then there is no way you could hit the all button and expect there to be $1600 in brackets in the squad.
Heres the real rub, the sharks are butt hurt they no longer have minnows to feast on. I say about damn time.
I have seen a number comments by high average bowlers. Most of their comments are less money for me. I have to agree the minnows will not there anymore.
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not a fan of the division change. All that is saying is "hey, I can't compete with the best so make it so I don't have to." To me this devalues the eagle a little.
What? This makes the eagle that much more special. The pool you must defeat is much stronger.
The top teams are still exactly the same. It's no tougher to win an eagle than it was before, the same score would still win.
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I have mixed emotions.
Assuming prize money will stay within divisions it just made it a lot harder to cash in the top division.
Assuming bracket money stays within divisions it just made brackets a lot less lucrative for the top bowlers.
The women's open has had several divisions for sometime now. And the last I heard participation in the women's event was down drastically.
It does open up another can of worms on average maintenance and raises expenses to run the tournament for average verification.
It does give the mid range averages a better chance at cashing and/or winning an event. However just like the classified division I really don't think they should be eagles. Maybe a dove or a buzzard. :)
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I understand what they're trying to do, and I think that most of the changes will bring about positive outcomes. I still wish that they'd give you SOME pattern info so that you didn't feel like you had to bring your whole darned arsenal. Then again, I have brought 6 balls the past few years, and I've generally used 2-3 at most, so I suppose that hasn't been a huge issue. I also wish that they'd consider classifying people based upon their tournament average (maybe after 5-10 years of participation) rather than house-shot averages because most people who book 210+ on house don't necessarily repeat that level in that environment. Then again, I guess it's their fault for bowling on easy house shots. Still, in the end, I think more good will come from the changes than bad.
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They are trying to boost entries. More bowlers helps spread out expenses and provides bigger incentive for cities to host event. I'm sure there's other ideas they want to do, but will make at later date.
I talked with one of the guys working the Bowlers Journal a couple years ago and he indicated they were looking at using USBC tournament averages for that event as it is more representative of what the bowler is capable of. I'd love to see tournament average used for divisions in the USBC Open as well. Minimum of 21 games to be eligible. The average categories may need adjusting to fairly equally distribute people. I live in bowling community and we only have 1 sport league available right now that I know of, so true averages aren't easy to obtain.
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Using usbc tournament average would be a good idea. I think the division 's would be very equel .
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Why not reduce the cost of each squad to $10 per squad and get rid of the prize money. Also, get rid of the brackets and make is so that way people just show up for the chance at winning the eagles.
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Why not reduce the cost of each squad to $10 per squad and get rid of the prize money. Also, get rid of the brackets and make is so that way people just show up for the chance at winning the eagles.
I certainly hope you are being sarcastic? Otherwise, enjoy bowling your one squad of team because that's all you will need. Yes, there are a few who are honestly bowling for an eagle and nothing more. The rest, it's mostly about the money if you gave them "truth syrup".
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It stuns me on some of the replies here. But I should be used to it.
BOWLERS ARE SELFISH!!!!!
You want 5-10% of the your consumer to tell you how to run your business because it will save the sport. Of course you do, it's not your money.
10% of bowlers: USBC should mandate tougher lane conditions.
Owner: That will drive away consumers.
10% of bowler: But it is for the sport.
Owner: But it will cost me money. You gonna make up for it.
10% of bowler: Ummm no.
USBC - New division at open championships
same 10% of bowlers - WAIT - WHAT???
USBC - Brackets by division too
same 10% of bowlers - hey that's costing me money
USBC - Better for majority of bowlers
same 10% of bowlers - where's my free money, U gonna make up for it?
USBC - Ummm No.
How does it feel now that the loss of money applies to you? You were all for it, when the changes didn't cost you money. Now they do.
Welcome to life. Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
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I need to clear up something on my stance on brackets. I don't care that I'm losing bowlers to another division and won't be bowling up against them. I Care about how many brackets I would be losing per squad. I just want there to be a full set of brackets is all, I would prefer my whole squad to be guys averaging in the 210 or over division because if I know if I throw it to my ability it will be a good day. And in order to roll a squad at the open championships your going to have to beat every 230+ Average bowler in that squad and that makes a guy at 205 I very small part of that equation. I know not everyone's stance on that is the same but that's just my thoughts.
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I need to clear up something on my stance on brackets. I don't care that I'm losing bowlers to another division and won't be bowling up against them. I Care about how many brackets I would be losing per squad. I just want there to be a full set of brackets is all, I would prefer my whole squad to be guys averaging in the 210 or over division because if I know if I throw it to my ability it will be a good day. And in order to roll a squad at the open championships your going to have to beat every 230+ bowler in that squad and that makes a guy at 205 I very small part of that equation. I know not everyone's stance on that is the same but that's just my thoughts.
I think you are right about this. I know I won't be playing brackets anymore. I'm a 220ish house hack who averages around 190ish in sport shot leagues. When there are a lot of foolish THS fish in the pond, I'm more than willing to cast my line in brackets, but this will be the last year I do. I don't intend to be the smallest fish in the pond and I'm not giving my money away
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Cry, Cry, cry. I won't be able to spend $1,600 in brackets any more. Oh, boo hoo.
Money has corrupted bowling so bad it's pathetic. I love to bowl and winning money is just a bonus. At one time you felt the same way, too. Maybe you should try it again. You just might find bowling is fun, again.
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I think that is the biggest complaint. People will cry about not being able to compete blah blah blah. What they are really saying is I can no longer beat up on the 181 guy so I'm not going any more. I'm 25 pins above the cut line and like you my tourney average is below my house average. I'll still bowl because I am a bowler and this is my sports Open Championship and I'll still throw money in brackets but it wont be as much.
This will be good for a lot of people, just not as good for the 211-215 guys. I'm sure they all felt bad for 181-185 guys too.
Lace em up and lets bowl
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Cry, Cry, cry. I won't be able to spend $1,600 in brackets any more. Oh, boo hoo.
Money has corrupted bowling so bad it's pathetic. I love to bowl and winning money is just a bonus. At one time you felt the same way, too. Maybe you should try it again. You just might find bowling is fun, again.
You do know that brackets are optional, right?
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My only complaint about the changes, is not releasing the pattern info. Do they think all bowlers are deaf mutes? It now comes down to who you know. Those of you supporting it, do you not think the tight knit bowling community in Wisconsin will talk amongst itself once people are back from Vegas? Do you not think the bowlers who work in the USBC offices who, well not being eligible to win money, won't talk, email or text their friends to give them info on the pattern? And I guarantee not all the people they talk to will be in the Regular division. So you are still going to have people practicing on the pattern, recreating it to achieve an advantage....only now it will an even smaller subset of bowlers then the ones who do it now giving those select few an immeasurable advantage. Any one who supports this part of the change is crazy if they think no one will know the pattern before they bowl....instead of everyone knowing it as it stands now.
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My only complaint about the changes, is not releasing the pattern info. Do they think all bowlers are deaf mutes? It now comes down to who you know. Those of you supporting it, do you not think the tight knit bowling community in Wisconsin will talk amongst itself once people are back from Vegas? Do you not think the bowlers who work in the USBC offices who, well not being eligible to win money, won't talk, email or text their friends to give them info on the pattern? And I guarantee not all the people they talk to will be in the Regular division. So you are still going to have people practicing on the pattern, recreating it to achieve an advantage....only now it will an even smaller subset of bowlers then the ones who do it now giving those select few an immeasurable advantage. Any one who supports this part of the change is crazy if they think no one will know the pattern before they bowl....instead of everyone knowing it as it stands now.
Have to agree somewhat here, as this will bring back the old school method of scouting. Someone will be sent to the tournament to scout out the conditions (based on someone bowling well), and report back to their groups on what they saw. The livestream made that easier, along with us being able to get a glimpse into the atmosphere that the tournament provides, but we know that a lot of people use it to prep for their time on the lanes. While it for the most provides no advantage or disadvantage (either everyone sees the pattern in play, or no-one sees the pattern in play), providing no stream at all hands the advantage back to those who can afford a scout at the lanes.
I know that for 2017, one certain team has a person living in Vegas who could easily head out to South Point, look at the pattern in depth for days on end, and report back everything they see to their team. I can see that happening with a number of teams.
BL.
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I agree on the releasing of the pattern just weird. :(
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I need to clear up something on my stance on brackets. I don't care that I'm losing bowlers to another division and won't be bowling up against them. I Care about how many brackets I would be losing per squad. I just want there to be a full set of brackets is all, I would prefer my whole squad to be guys averaging in the 210 or over division because if I know if I throw it to my ability it will be a good day. And in order to roll a squad at the open championships your going to have to beat every 230+ bowler in that squad and that makes a guy at 205 I very small part of that equation. I know not everyone's stance on that is the same but that's just my thoughts.
I think you are right about this. I know I won't be playing brackets anymore. I'm a 220ish house hack who averages around 190ish in sport shot leagues. When there are a lot of foolish THS fish in the pond, I'm more than willing to cast my line in brackets, but this will be the last year I do. I don't intend to be the smallest fish in the pond and I'm not giving my money away
I am in the same boat...220 THS and 170-180's on Sport. For Vegas Nationals I will have to do some serious thinking about whether to get in brackets or not. I also don't want to be giving my money away.
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I need to clear up something on my stance on brackets. I don't care that I'm losing bowlers to another division and won't be bowling up against them. I Care about how many brackets I would be losing per squad. I just want there to be a full set of brackets is all, I would prefer my whole squad to be guys averaging in the 210 or over division because if I know if I throw it to my ability it will be a good day. And in order to roll a squad at the open championships your going to have to beat every 230+ bowler in that squad and that makes a guy at 205 I very small part of that equation. I know not everyone's stance on that is the same but that's just my thoughts.
I think you are right about this. I know I won't be playing brackets anymore. I'm a 220ish house hack who averages around 190ish in sport shot leagues. When there are a lot of foolish THS fish in the pond, I'm more than willing to cast my line in brackets, but this will be the last year I do. I don't intend to be the smallest fish in the pond and I'm not giving my money away
I am in the same boat...220 THS and 170-180's on Sport. For Vegas Nationals I will have to do some serious thinking about whether to get in brackets or not. I also don't want to be giving my money away.
The question is: are you still going? I guess there is one good thing coming out of all this is there are a lot of us who are in the same boat
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I need to clear up something on my stance on brackets. I don't care that I'm losing bowlers to another division and won't be bowling up against them. I Care about how many brackets I would be losing per squad. I just want there to be a full set of brackets is all, I would prefer my whole squad to be guys averaging in the 210 or over division because if I know if I throw it to my ability it will be a good day. And in order to roll a squad at the open championships your going to have to beat every 230+ bowler in that squad and that makes a guy at 205 I very small part of that equation. I know not everyone's stance on that is the same but that's just my thoughts.
I think you are right about this. I know I won't be playing brackets anymore. I'm a 220ish house hack who averages around 190ish in sport shot leagues. When there are a lot of foolish THS fish in the pond, I'm more than willing to cast my line in brackets, but this will be the last year I do. I don't intend to be the smallest fish in the pond and I'm not giving my money away
I am in the same boat...220 THS and 170-180's on Sport. For Vegas Nationals I will have to do some serious thinking about whether to get in brackets or not. I also don't want to be giving my money away.
The question is: are you still going? I guess there is one good thing coming out of all this is there are a lot of us who are in the same boat
Oh yea, I'll still be going and will organize multiple teams as well. I love bowling the Open, even without the brackets to pay for the trip. I'm used to that though, I took a bath in the brackets in El Paso.
I did however, come home with a beautiful pair of hand made cowboy boots!
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I need to clear up something on my stance on brackets. I don't care that I'm losing bowlers to another division and won't be bowling up against them. I Care about how many brackets I would be losing per squad. I just want there to be a full set of brackets is all, I would prefer my whole squad to be guys averaging in the 210 or over division because if I know if I throw it to my ability it will be a good day. And in order to roll a squad at the open championships your going to have to beat every 230+ bowler in that squad and that makes a guy at 205 I very small part of that equation. I know not everyone's stance on that is the same but that's just my thoughts.
I think you are right about this. I know I won't be playing brackets anymore. I'm a 220ish house hack who averages around 190ish in sport shot leagues. When there are a lot of foolish THS fish in the pond, I'm more than willing to cast my line in brackets, but this will be the last year I do. I don't intend to be the smallest fish in the pond and I'm not giving my money away
I am in the same boat...220 THS and 170-180's on Sport. For Vegas Nationals I will have to do some serious thinking about whether to get in brackets or not. I also don't want to be giving my money away.
The question is: are you still going? I guess there is one good thing coming out of all this is there are a lot of us who are in the same boat
Yes, I will still be going. Whether I drop my few bucks into brackets is something that is still up in the air.
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I will still be going for the foreseeable future. As for brackets, I only put in about $50 per event as it is, so that probably won't change either. Now, if I were a USBC employee, there is no way I'd continue going. I don't make much off of the tournament now, but I don't think there is any way that I could justify dropping money on travel, hotel, entries, and extras when there is literally zero chance of me getting any money back.
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At this point I don't think anything will kill entries. But I have a few thoughts. First is by having a middle division and allowing those in that division to play 2 sets of brackets (middle and open division) brings the possibility of sandbagging. Who's to say I don't sacrifice the next 3 years to average 200 and clean up in both sets of brackets. Which is possible. Unfortunately I know guys in this area who are thinking about it because that's all they view this event as. I cant and never will do that because I choose to bowl for the idea of winning an eagle. I've been close. Top 5 in team 2 years ago and 4th this year in all events.
Second I truly believe the sport needs incentives to get people to try and achieve higher accomplishments. By this, the division's should pay accordingly. What I mean by this is the open 210-higher should pay the highest regardless of entries. To me if its not this way you are devaluing the eagle and winning at the highest level. This once again goes back to sandbagging, if I know more entries will be in the middle division why try and get better when money will be better in that division.
Removing the live stream is dumb. What they forget is bowling is about self promotion as well as promoting the products many of us are under contract with. I have incentives in my contracts for nations including my finish as well as live streaming. By removing this it removes those opportunities that are already dwindled. Also for some people who don't have the chance to practice on the patterns before it gives an idea of what to do. This only helps the event.
Finally not allowing usbc workers to cash is beyond belief. They pay to travel and pay to bowl why don't they get the cash????
Those are my views.
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Second I truly believe the sport needs incentives to get people to try and achieve higher accomplishments. By this, the division's should pay accordingly. What I mean by this is the open 210-higher should pay the highest regardless of entries. To me if its not this way you are devaluing the eagle and winning at the highest level. This once again goes back to sandbagging, if I know more entries will be in the middle division why try and get better when money will be better in that division.
I agree with this even though I am not talented enough to compete in the upper level.
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One thing I wonder if no one considers, is that maybe the 181-199 (I left off 200-209 on purpose, more on that in a minute) cannot get any better?
I don't know how many of you have bowled in mixed leagues, but the if you truly watch the 181-199 bowlers, you can usually find the flaw in their game. Bad knees, older, poor form, terrible spare shooting, terrible ball choices etc.
You expect this person to spend money on coaching and practice? Get real. They usually have families and jobs and bowling is their fun with buddies. Sure they want to bowl good, and yes they goto nationals, but they would never realistically get better.
Now back to the 200-209. That cut off was pure percentages. If you found Chad Murphy's comments, they picked that number because it put 39% of current entrants in both the Standard and Open division. It had nothing to do with 209 being a magic level of ability. Just balancing the divisions.
And if you wish to sandbag so you can drop to the standard division and double dip, just remember, the great white sharks are back (LOL). You load up in both division brackets and you find out that Jason Belmonte happens to be bowling your squad and you may end up being shark bait in that open division.
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Due to surgery I am currently out of bowling, but I am signed up for Nationals next year. I love bowling this tournament and base my year around it. IF I had made El Paso it would have been my 20th consecutive tournament. For most of those events they did not release the pattern and for those I didn't make a lot of cash, but one of my biggest was during that time. Once the ITRC was built in Arlington, that all changed and my teams approach to this tournament did as well. We have practiced the past few years to prepare and it has paid off when some good finishes. My plan is even once patterns are not released, to still go to the training center and practice on tough conditions. No won't be THE nationals patterns, but they are never exact anyway and the goal is to try and get a game plan and to work on matching up better with tough conditions. I will still go to the Nationals (health allows) and I will spend the same amount of money. As far as average.. My Nationals average is about 10 pins less than league, but since I have been injured for the past 9 years I have been a 20? average in league and don't bowl in the highest scoring centers just due to my home house and a tough travel league.
Now, I do think it will lower the prize fund. I know in Texas even with all our great bowlers the top division at state doesn't pay worth a flip. We won team a few years back and it was so bad it State isn't in DFW we don't even waste our time anymore. That could happen at Nationals as well. I hope it has the affect they are wanting and gets more of that average bowlers to come out since they might feel like they have a better chance.
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One thing I wonder if no one considers, is that maybe the 181-199 (I left off 200-209 on purpose, more on that in a minute) cannot get any better?
I don't know how many of you have bowled in mixed leagues, but the if you truly watch the 181-199 bowlers, you can usually find the flaw in their game. Bad knees, older, poor form, terrible spare shooting, terrible ball choices etc.
You expect this person to spend money on coaching and practice? Get real. They usually have families and jobs and bowling is their fun with buddies. Sure they want to bowl good, and yes they goto nationals, but they would never realistically get better.
Now back to the 200-209. That cut off was pure percentages. If you found Chad Murphy's comments, they picked that number because it put 39% of current entrants in both the Standard and Open division. It had nothing to do with 209 being a magic level of ability. Just balancing the divisions.
And if you wish to sandbag so you can drop to the standard division and double dip, just remember, the great white sharks are back (LOL). You load up in both division brackets and you find out that Jason Belmonte happens to be bowling your squad and you may end up being shark bait in that open division.
You are right many of them use it as fun. and that is great. We all love or at least should love the sport. I completely understand not wanting to or not having the time to practice and get better but this doesn't mean the sport should make that ok or cater to that. This is why I am saying the highest division should be more valued and higher paying. I work full time have a wife and still find a way to practice, put in my time, bowl tournaments to reach the level I compete at so why should the person who bowls 3 or 6 games a week be bowling for more prestige and value. I know this may seem harsh but it's true. With handicap taking more and more hold in areas the sport is loosing a reason to get better. No other sport does this. In our area there is a handicap tournament that guarantees the top 5 sports and first being 10000 almost every week regardless of entries. Atleast 2 times a month minimum. There is only 2 that guarantee first place of 1000. And it has to get 40 or 50 entries to do that.
There is a big handicap and scratch tournament in our area a few times a year. The prizes are 10000 minimum for handicap and 2000 for scratch. Why should I get better work hard at the game when I can sandbag or play the system to bowl for 5 the men's the money?????
I would love to see amateur golfing for millions while the best in the world golf golf for thousands. Or a local baseball game paying hundreds of thousands while the big guns play for peanuts....
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I still think that the lower divisions should not receive eagles. They should get some other award for winning their division but the eagle should go to the best scores only. And yes, before someone piles on, if a lower division winner has a higher score than the higher division then they should get the eagle. Make the eagle still mean something and not devalue its significance by handing out more of them. Just my opinion.
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UCFalum300,
Where in the other sports you mention are the other players subsidizing the pro's paychecks? That is what you are asking for. We cannot make enough money so take away money from another division's entry's and help us.
Once that happens, I won't bowl, and I am in the open division.
When I was in my 20's I had dreams of bowling the tour. And according to several people, I may have had the ability to compete. But I quickly found out the my day job was going to pay me more than the top 10 PBA earnings on tour. I so went the day job route. Now maybe other bowlers aren't as fortunate as I was on the day job and bowling is the only real opportunity to feed themselves and their families.
Tough life. This isn't the pro golf world where to you can just make the cut every tournament and end the year almost a millionaire for the year. If I recall, correctly, the top 125 on the PGA list retain their main tour card each year and last year, 125th was $3.3 milion in earnings. Why? Sponsorship and TV money.
Bowling has very little of that, and trying to get the open division payoffs padded from other entrants because you think you've earned it? I find that really funny.
Sean Rash posted a comment in one of the facebook posts recently where someone said they wished there was an old 70's style tour today. Sean said he has no time for it if it was. He bowls 30 weeks a year all over the world and makes a great living at it. If you are really as good as you think you are, you can bowl all you want and make a good deal of money. However, you have to beat the best in the world every week to do it, ARE YOU REALLY THAT GOOD?
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txbowler,
First I want to say I read your post a few times because I like the open discussion on the event and bowling itself and you opened my eyes to a few things as well as others i have talked to and read on this post have.
You and I are in similiar places it sounds like. I had dreams of going on tour when there was a week to week tour, tour trials, points for regional players meaning a full time spot on the national tour. But I decided to go with education first and fore most. Got a degree and fortunately my dad and I own and run a successful business together so bowling is something that I do because I enjoy getting better and enjoy the competition. Money is a second thought when it comes to this. I know it may not seem that way with my arguments but we are taking about a big tournament with tons of entries and money on the line.
I get your point on the subsidizing pros paychecks. But look at it this way. How may "pros" already bowl the event? As it stands right now you can still have 2 "pros" on your team already. And how many guys that bowl it are just as good as them but dont want the life on the road anymore or have jobs that they enjoy and love and dont want to go out on tour? Guys like John Janawicz, Vernon Peterson, Rob Gotchall, and many more who I consider better than some of the pros that are now allowed to bowl. I think what you mean are the touring guys like belmo, barnes, rash, oneil etc correct? You are adding 50 guys that couldn't bowl before. So how much subsidizing is really going to happen?
When I say I think it should pay accordingly I don't mean that the open division should pay 15k for first and the other divisions pay 500. But I am saying there still should be some sort of variation in pay between the divisions. Regardless of what division has the most entries. Lets just say the most entries are from the middle division, then open, then classified. i am still in favor of distributing money to the classified division as well for a good payout, but the best in the the event should have a potential for a the most out there. I am in no say saying of making it to where people make their living off this event alone. I don't expect it to be top heavy on the open division side. But I still believe our sport need some sort of incentive to get to a higher level. If the middle division does actually pay more than the open why get to the open division? Our sport is the only one that doesn't have that incentive or reason to get better. Even if I was going to be in either of the 2 other divisions I would feel this way because it would give me more reason to get better. I have talked to friends and other people in the classified and now middle division and they all feel the same way.
This once again goes back to sandbagging. There now a reason for people to perform under their ability to take advantage of the situation.
You are correct on the golf part of sponsorship and money. But lets look at golf. Does the web.com tour make as much as the pro tour? It used to be called the hooters tour a while back (stage or 2 below the web.com tour) pay more than the web.com tour? The answer is no. The title, prestige and money are the incentive to get better.
I did not see Rash's post on Facebook but if the tour was what it was like when he first went on when it was week in and week out would he have to travel overseas to bowl? That a questions he would have to answer.
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I understand your point and I with you know that the sandbagging is coming.
So lets say USBC were to agree with you and try to implement this and take some percentage of money (5-10% or whatever it is) to boost the open division as you suggest.
And lets say you are a true 190 average bowler now considering bowling the tournament because you now feel you have a fair chance against mostly equal ability bowlers (sandbaggers aside).
And you read, that if the open division does not have enough entries (this is an entry driven tournament), then prize money from another division may be reallocated to the open division to: ?????
How would USBC word this in any manner that if you were the 190 bowler, you aren't going to say forget it and not enter?
You say you run a business, isn't what you are asking for sort of like saying, hey can you kick in an extra 10% of your profits because the business next door isn't quite making as much money because they don't get as much business as you because their market is smaller?
What I am afraid you will see if even less entries that the 39% after Vegas. Why, well, the 210-219 bowlers would enter and hope to clean up in brackets against the 181-209s. With those gone, the 210-219 are now the small fish for the 220+ and some of them have already posted, they are not going to bowl or are rethinking it.
And just FYI - the new PBA rule is everyone can bowl, just no more than 1 PBA title holder on a team, or doubles unless you are older than 60.
So the big example that everyone is upset about: Mark McDowell and Mike Shady both earned titles back in the 80s-90s. They have been bowling the tournament together with Jeff Richgels for almost 20 years now. Both are in their 50s now. They can no longer bowl together on the team and dbls due to the new rule until one of them turns 60.
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I agree with you that the wording will be tough but I hope you see what I'm saying about our sport at a whole and not only limited to this event. If this event rewarded even just a little bit monetary it would possibly see changes in other places. It is something g they would have to work on and run number on it to figure it out but we also have to wait and see the total entries. I don't think it would be a total 5 or 10 % off the top. It will be based on entries. I think vegas will be a false sense of entries for the new divison. I think the true test will be reno in 2018.
As for the buisness. Usbc is the buisness. We are independent contractors so to speak that work on comission. The higher and better in any company make more don't they?
As for the pba rule. I think that needs changing for the example you stated. They should be able to bowl together. Their titles were years and years ago. I think if promoted well usbc can use the top guys as a bonus or promotion for the event.
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I fully support any ideas that will grow bowling. I am not sure this one will.
I would love it if the money at this tournament would rise. No one would complain if it did.
But a lot of "elite" bowlers bowled this tournament, looking at it as a really good chance at doubling, tripling or more their bracket investment every year.
Well, more than likely, that is gone. So your idea is that lower average bowlers should boost the higher division prize fund to make up for some of that lost income?
How about instead, you enter 4 or 5 additional scratch tournaments across the country that are available almost every weekend and make it up yourself?
It's just like your business. If you suddenly lost 10% of your revenue. Are you going to ask the government to bail you out to make up for it, or are you going to work your tail off to find additional business revenue?
Well the easy money from beating the 181-209 bowlers is now gone. You need to work your tail off (beat better bowlers, bowl extra tournaments) and make up the difference yourself. Not expect USBC to bail you out.
That's my take on it.
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This whoe thing cracks me up. Ultimately I don't care if the sandbaggers cheat. Hell they do it now; there is no way of really knowing if the individual who is supposedly sandbagging has an injury, or maybe a new baby, or lost his job and money is tight, etc. I know people who cheat on their taxes, are we upset about them?
While the prize fund will take a hit I don't personally bowl the tournament for the money. I hope that one of these times I'll get hot and shoot an 800 and win the damn thing. It really comes down to brackets and now the "Elite" will have to earn it, but who cares go earn it.
Instead of everyone worrying about catching sandbaggers we should work on trying to get the PBA rule modified, like it has been said before a title in the 80's (while still a great accomplishment) shouldn't have as much weight as one won last year.
Anyway thanks for reading and I'll hopefully see you guys in Reno and beyond. I missed so many years because of my military commitment nothing is stopping me now that I'm retired.
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Did anybody check to see where the entries are dropping from? The whole point of the changes was to boost entries. As a 190 bowler who has no realistic chance of even getting my entry fee back, I have to applaud the changes. My group goes every year, spends the same amount of money traveling and if we get hot, we might get meal money back. Brackets are a non issue, since it would be stupid to have a 190 bowler throw money away bowling against all the 220+ bowlers.
But we go to have a good time and support the tournament. But how many bowlers that ave 205-190 want to spent that kind of money, year after year to bowl and get nothing back? That's why they left. And as some poster already pointed out, I will never get any better, that's why we ave 190. I wish I was good enough to ave 210, and applaud all of you at that skill level. But I'm not gonna be upset at the least that my entry fees are not going to your prize fund.
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rdw - you are the exact bowler USBC made the changes for.
The hope is that over time, with Vegas being a big draw in 2017, that bowlers like yourself, will learn that now you won't be bowling against the elite anymore.
And maybe more of you will come bowl in the future thus growing the entries in that division.
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I just noticed this in the FAQ PDF about the new changes to the USBC Open and found it interesting AND needed. Preventing the "Regular" division guys from joining the ones who can manage to sandbag into the Classified/Standard groups is overdue in my opinion. And restricting the Classified teams to only one Standard division bowler will help cut down on the BS as well.
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/tournaments/pdfs/usbcopenchamp/2017/2017OCFAQ.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/tournaments/pdfs/usbcopenchamp/2017/2017OCFAQ.pdf)
Additional parameters for divisional placement:
1.Regular Division bowlers(entering averages of 210 and above)may not compete in Classified Team or Classified Doubles, regardless of team composite average.
2.Teams in the Standard Division may have no more than one bowler with an average of 210 or higher.
3.Teams in the Classified Division may have no more one bowler with an average between181-209.
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I think the one thing they need to do is take the tournament avg. If you have bowled the USBC Open before, you have a tourney avg and that is the one they should use since all USBC Tourneys are on sport patterns and house shots aren't sport compliant. Or use the adjustment scale to get your tourney avg instead of using your house avg for a sport tourney since we all know avgs are inflated.
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I find the rules changes contradictory...
The pattern will not be announced and there will be no live streams to "level the playing field" as it was put by the USBC. Well lets see, the staff/tour guys can still bowl on the showcase lanes and the bowlers journal tournament, then drill balls based on recommendations from guys working the booth. Joe Bowler on the other hand makes his best guess at building an arsenal and hops on a plane...maybe I'm missing something here. It appears as though the USBC is making changes to put more money in their pocket so don't tell me you're leveling the playing field until the showcase lanes are shut down and players are only allowed to enter the BJ when they've finished competing in the open. In fact, Matt McNeil says he never practices on the pattern and shapes his strategy/arsenal by bowling at the tournament site and who's been more successful than him the last five years! Personally I think most of the decisions coming out of the USBC lately have far less to do with increasing membership/participation and much more about generating additional revenue from a shrinking membership base which quite frankly isn't what the governing body of bowling should be focused on.
Just my two cents...
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I think the one thing they need to do is take the tournament avg. If you have bowled the USBC Open before, you have a tourney avg and that is the one they should use since all USBC Tourneys are on sport patterns and house shots aren't sport compliant. Or use the adjustment scale to get your tourney avg instead of using your house avg for a sport tourney since we all know avgs are inflated.
I agree but make it so that you have to have in X # of years, say 4 or 5.
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I think the one thing they need to do is take the tournament avg. If you have bowled the USBC Open before, you have a tourney avg and that is the one they should use since all USBC Tourneys are on sport patterns and house shots aren't sport compliant. Or use the adjustment scale to get your tourney avg instead of using your house avg for a sport tourney since we all know avgs are inflated.
I agree but make it so that you have to have in X # of years, say 4 or 5.
USBC rules say 21 games establishes an average. Three trips with Team/Doubles/Singles should do it.
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I think the one thing they need to do is take the tournament avg. If you have bowled the USBC Open before, you have a tourney avg and that is the one they should use since all USBC Tourneys are on sport patterns and house shots aren't sport compliant. Or use the adjustment scale to get your tourney avg instead of using your house avg for a sport tourney since we all know avgs are inflated.
I agree but make it so that you have to have in X # of years, say 4 or 5.
USBC rules say 21 games establishes an average. Three trips with Team/Doubles/Singles should do it.
I think the year after reaching 21 games would be reasonable.