Post by: DukeHarding on July 15, 2009, 12:36:12 PM
Why Not a 3rd Division, for the guys that we know that us mere mortals can't compete against?
Let's call it, say the "TOP GUN" Division.
How many bowlers who average 200-210 on a THS can compete with the guys who are on the top of the leaderboard?
I'm not taking anything away from those bowlers... I know in my wildest dreams I couldn't shoot anywhere near what they shoot.
Any thoughts?
I've had 10-15 bowlers who bowled this year, bring up the same idea....
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Duke Harding
If Bowling had a Mount Rushmore (http://"http://www.nps.gov/archive/moru/park_history/carving_hist/carving_history.htm"), Bill Taylor should be George Washington (http://"http://www.terragalleria.com/america/mid-west/south-dakota/picture.ussd8424.html").
Post by: Russell on July 15, 2009, 08:54:35 PM
I would also hate to see how long it would take the sandbaggers to realize they could average 205 in league and only have to shoot 2000 at Natls to win an Eagle.
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Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: notsohotshot on July 15, 2009, 09:35:04 PM
When I bowled s&d this year I bowled on 3rd shift with burnt up lanes that I could not even get the ball thru the heads much less the mids before it went left yet I watched other squads that had a decent area to play.I started by swinging the ball 25 to 10 just to have any chance to score and it got worse from there.
Post by: Urethane Game on July 15, 2009, 09:45:09 PM
Doesn't anyone want to get better and actually compete with the guys who are winning all of the hardware? If you feel like you're donating to the better players then don't bowl.
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Classic Rock and Blues Net Radio (http://"http://www.roosterradio.net")
Post by: scotts33 on July 15, 2009, 09:54:23 PM
Do you really think you are going to walk away with decent $$$ if you aren't among the bowlers that understand equipment, lane conditions, how to break down a pair with a team, shoot spares dead straight, vary a trajectory from playing the twig to getting inside of the 5th arrow to 8 board at the break point, etc.????? Do you want to bowl on a THS at Natl's?
You are giving $$$ to the elite bowlers that are taking it from you. They know that now you should understand that. Dumb bunny's!
Good gawd I don't bowl Natl's anymore I know I am not that good. Sheesh take it as a vacation and leave it at that. Otherwise quit your whining. I'd never want to see it as a hdcp. tourney.
BTW.....this is how ABC/USBC keeps going.....it's NOT off your sanctions dues it's off you folks that keep on bowling Natl's. Wake up and smell the coffee!
This Nat'l tourney dies and USBC dies. Duh!
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Scott
Post by: DukeHarding on July 15, 2009, 10:42:32 PM
quote:
How about just doing split the pot for an Eagle? Just because the NFL has parity doesn't mean bowling should. I think some of the megabucks had problems with their 205 and under divisions.
Doesn't anyone want to get better and actually compete with the guys who are winning all of the hardware? If you feel like you're donating to the better players then don't bowl.
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Classic Rock and Blues Net Radio (http://"http://www.roosterradio.net")
That's about where I'm at...at 62....not bowling.
I don't have a chance of winning.
I shot 667 in doubles. Shot 1778 AE, I was 2nd high out of bowlers on our 2 teams.
I bowled with some good THS bowlers, who didn't break 1600.
I ran out of steam the last 2 games in singles.
How about making classified limit 190, not 180?
I'd like it to be a little fairer foor the average bowler.
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Duke Harding
If Bowling had a Mount Rushmore (http://"http://www.nps.gov/archive/moru/park_history/carving_hist/carving_history.htm"), Bill Taylor should be George Washington (http://"http://www.terragalleria.com/america/mid-west/south-dakota/picture.ussd8424.html").
Post by: mrbowlingnut on July 15, 2009, 11:11:51 PM
Post by: DukeHarding on July 15, 2009, 11:30:03 PM
quote:
Those that are not REAL scratch bowlers (ie. bowl regularly on sport condition leagues, PBAX leagues, etc.) are "idiots" if bowling Natl's. UNLESS they are going for a vacation.
Do you really think you are going to walk away with decent $$$ if you aren't among the bowlers that understand equipment, lane conditions, how to break down a pair with a team, shoot spares dead straight, vary a trajectory from playing the twig to getting inside of the 5th arrow to 8 board at the break point, etc.????? Do you want to bowl on a THS at Natl's?
You are giving $$$ to the elite bowlers that are taking it from you. They know that now you should understand that. Dumb bunny's!
Good gawd I don't bowl Natl's anymore I know I am not that good. Sheesh take it as a vacation and leave it at that. Otherwise quit your whining. I'd never want to see it as a hdcp. tourney.
BTW.....this is how ABC/USBC keeps going.....it's NOT off your sanctions dues it's off you folks that keep on bowling Natl's. Wake up and smell the coffee!
This Nat'l tourney dies and USBC dies. Duh!
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Scott
Scott,
I've been bowling it since 1967...
Maybe it's time to join my buddy Jim Scott, and sit on the side lines?
Or contribute to Sr. PBA events?
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Duke Harding
How is it that, people who oppose the government running any large corporation, favor the government's control of the military?
Post by: Pinbuster on July 16, 2009, 06:36:33 AM
You already have calls of sandbagging every year in the classified division. It would only get worse if they had even more divisions. It would become impossible to police.
But this is suppose to be a tournament to crown natioanl champions. I don't believe Tennis or Golf have divisions in their open championships.
As long as we bowl for money this situation will exist. And most bowlers insist on bowling for money so you have to put up with the players who are professionals in every term of the word but are not exempt on the PBA tour.
I understand your frustration. I know I really don't have a chance to win and we really are not any competition to most of the big dogs.
But I go for the competition and the vacation. Hopefully I pick up a small check to defray the cost some.
Post by: riggs on July 16, 2009, 08:21:05 AM
But you need to realize that you already have the Classified Division being decimated every year by sandbaggers and any intermediate division also would meet the same fate.
Post by: DukeHarding on July 16, 2009, 09:27:30 AM
quote:
This sort of thing wouldn't be a big deal to me.
But you need to realize that you already have the Classified Division being decimated every year by sandbaggers and any intermediate division also would meet the same fate.
riggs,
I missed being put into Classified by 3 pins.
In 2007-08 I averaged (sub) 180 for 24 games.
January of 08-09 I was at 193.
I came back from injuries, this past year.
I would have been tied for 10th place AE...
My averages wold have looked suspicious, and I would have been labeled a bagger.
I wouldn't have bowled Classified, I would have considered it cheating.
I wonder how many of the sandbaggers, are just guys coming off of injuries, or bowlers having a great, once in a lifetime tournament.
I think a lot of bowlers would like to cash for a bigger chunk of cash, not win an eagle.
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Duke Harding
How is it that, people who oppose the government running any large corporation, favor the government's control of the military?
Post by: nutsforbowling on July 16, 2009, 10:17:18 AM
By the way, has anyone heard if they are actually going to BUILD the center in Orlando? The economy is not getting any better, and I wonder what happens if they can't get it done? The women are in Reno in 2012, so where do we go then?
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Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.
Post by: scotts33 on July 16, 2009, 10:23:50 AM
I am with Pinbuster, I'd do away with the Classified Div. also.
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Scott
Post by: DukeHarding on July 16, 2009, 10:43:48 AM
quote:
BTW Duke H. my comments were only meant for the whole picture of the Nat'l tournament.
I am with Pinbuster, I'd do away with the Classified Div. also.
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Scott
Getting rid of the Divisions wouldn't be a bad idea.
I bowl with a few Classified bowlers, who still think the tournament is handicap...after bowling it for 4-5 years.
They probably wouldn't know the difference...they never have received a check, it's a nice vacation for them, nothing else.
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Duke Harding
How is it that, people who oppose the government running any large corporation, favor the government's control of the military?
Post by: Minnesota Don on July 16, 2009, 11:16:05 AM
My team mates and I are solid 210-220 bowlers on most THS and tournament shots, we want this shot to be as difficult as possible. I believe the pattern should not be advertised to have practice shots made. With the National patterns and scheduling the overwhelming number of the 50,000 + bowlers that bowl each year are not in the upper levels of those who end up in the top 100 or so places each year. Most, if not all sports have divisions or classifications to separate the competitors. Why not at the Nationals? Better yet why even have a cutoff for the HDCP division? Have a scratch and hdcp and let the teams decide which they would like to enter? If the classified can be verified for averages why not all who want to enter? To be honest I would like to see three if not four divisions. Something like a Super, Elite, Regular and a Classified.
Super could be for anyone who has a pro card, won a regional or placed in the top 100 of a National in the last 5 years. Elite would be 220 and above, never been a pro? Regular 200-220 and classified would be 100% handicap. Averages and any of the classifications/placements can be made to suit the masses but let's get real, most of the upper average bowlers and teams probably would not travel every year if the $$ were not in tournament. I like to cash as much as anyone else but I don't go to this for the prize fund and most of the hard core bowlers don't either. The tournament should be run to cover the cost, some from dues and some from entries but it should be run as a service to the bowlers who supported the USBC all year. We pay some pretty good salaries to people who don't appear to be supporting the average bowler any more?
Many of us would go to compete for the Eagle alone and write the cost off as a vacation. Bring the tournament back to the core of the bowlers who actually support this tournament. You want to make big $$ go to the other tournaments but this should be more about supporting the average everyday league bowler.
This was a bit long but I think many of us feel the same. It will not be an easy fix as the economy suffers and the number of entries keep falling. I would also like to see this tournament travel more than to the same 4-5 cities we seem to be locked into.
Post by: JessN16 on July 17, 2009, 07:32:24 PM
1) The number of people capable of winning this event is a mere fraction of the total number of entries, but the prize fund is funded by Joe Bowler and Friends,
2) Given that amateurs are the target of this tournament, you have to make it attractive to bowlers of their ability level.
In other words, true high-average guys who take the attitude of "so what if you can't win -- practice and get better" are just making noise, to me. The true national championship for those guys is the U.S. Open. Golf has its U.S. Open for pros and pro-level people, and the U.S. Amateur for guys of lesser ability but who are still talented golfers.
I don't understand why this tournament isn't handicap-adjusted, unless the USBC knows that sandbagging is so much a problem that the entire system is flawed. And if that's the case, why do they advocate the system -- at 100 percent, no less -- for their leagues? It's a mixed message.
I also don't understand barring USBC-legal cleaners at the Nationals. I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. Stupid.
If you want to win big prize funds and call yourself the sport's real national champion, the U.S. Open is where you need to go. If you want to win Eagles and call yourself the best amateur bowler of your skill level, go to Nats. So I wouldn't have a problem with adding other divisions.
However, if you're going to do away with the Classified division, then anyone who has or has ever held a PBA card should be ineligible, and steered toward the U.S. Open instead. Right now, those guys are having their cake and eating it too, at the expense of the amateur.
Jess
Post by: scotts33 on July 17, 2009, 08:00:19 PM
quote:
I don't understand why this tournament isn't handicap-adjusted, unless the USBC knows that sandbagging is so much a problem that the entire system is flawed. And if that's the case, why do they advocate the system -- at 100 percent, no less -- for their leagues? It's a mixed message.
Cuz USBC is screwed up. You have novices where 100% is not the correct average to work off of because they will/may get better. And you have established bowlers that may or may not get better so their 100% hdcp ratio is flawed. If you suck you probably always will suck. If you suck and you care and work on your game yes 100% is way out of wack.
So, if you want a Nat'l hdcp tourney than go for that but don't mix it up with a Nat'l tourney of scratch bowlers. Basic average bowlers are being used and always have been Wake up! Take your leadership and start your own hdcp. Natl's tourney. Why work off Natl's....start something else.
You are giving them your $$$$!
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Scott
Post by: JessN16 on July 17, 2009, 08:16:29 PM
quote:quote:
I don't understand why this tournament isn't handicap-adjusted, unless the USBC knows that sandbagging is so much a problem that the entire system is flawed. And if that's the case, why do they advocate the system -- at 100 percent, no less -- for their leagues? It's a mixed message.
Cuz USBC is screwed up. You have novices where 100% is not the correct average to work off of because they will/may get better. And you have established bowlers that may or may not get better so their 100% hdcp ratio is flawed. If you suck you probably always will suck. If you suck and you care and work on your game yes 100% is way out of wack.
So, if you want a Nat'l hdcp tourney than go for that but don't mix it up with a Nat'l tourney of scratch bowlers. Basic average bowlers are being used and always have been Wake up! Take your leadership and start your own hdcp. Natl's tourney. Why work off Natl's....start something else.
You are giving them your $$$$!
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Scott
The problem with that suggestion is inertia (and I'm not talking about the Track ball by the same name).
Inertia as it relates to bowling and this tournament in particular is this: The USBC is one of the few groups with the money and the reach that can put on a tournament of this size, in venues as prestigious/large/etc. as the ones that are utilized, and offer prizes (i.e., Eagles) that people want to take home.
There are plenty of high-level handicap tournaments out there but none of them can get the momentum behind them to overtake the Nats. So a competing tournament to Nationals is not and will not be an option unless the USBC goes under completely.
And as much as I'd like to improve about the USBC, we need the USBC in some form or fashion or any notion that this sport really is a sport -- or even an organized competitive recreation -- will be gone after that (and before someone tries to say this isn't a sport or a competitive recreation, check yourself for a brain).
Jess
Post by: MI 2 AZ on July 17, 2009, 08:39:12 PM
quote:
I also don't understand barring USBC-legal cleaners at the Nationals. I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. Stupid.
I think it is because of their concern that bowlers would use illegal substances to alter the ball's surface/coverstock with no real way to monitor it. Banning everything other than a clean dry towel covers that.
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I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
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Post by: JessN16 on July 18, 2009, 01:14:58 AM
quote:quote:
I also don't understand barring USBC-legal cleaners at the Nationals. I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. Stupid.
I think it is because of their concern that bowlers would use illegal substances to alter the ball's surface/coverstock with no real way to monitor it. Banning everything other than a clean dry towel covers that.
--------------------
I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
_________________________________________
New to BR? - Please check this: BR FAQ (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
That's the same line of thought that keeps them from running handicap at Nationals, I'll bet -- "We can't make sure that (sandbaggers, ball surface cheaters, etc.) aren't cheating so we abdicate our responsibility to police it properly." In fact, that's pretty much the very attitude that permeates USBC at the national and many local levels. Laziness is all it is.
How about this one -- send the balls through tech, then have an area where they can buy their cleaners NIB from vendors before going out to the lanes. That way everyone knows exactly what's in everyone's hands and cheating can't happen. If you want to make doubly sure, don't just check balls -- check the bags, too.
Jess
Post by: MI 2 AZ on July 18, 2009, 11:13:38 AM
quote:
If you want to make doubly sure, don't just check balls -- check the bags, too.
Body/cavity searches next?
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I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
_________________________________________
New to BR? - Please check this: BR FAQ (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: JessN16 on July 18, 2009, 05:36:57 PM
quote:quote:
If you want to make doubly sure, don't just check balls -- check the bags, too.
Body/cavity searches next?
--------------------
I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
_________________________________________
New to BR? - Please check this: BR FAQ (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
And dogs. Gotta have the EZ Slide-sniffing dogs.
Jess
Post by: Bill Thomas on July 19, 2009, 01:37:00 PM
Post by: Russell on July 19, 2009, 02:18:24 PM
quote:
I guess I don't really see why anyone needs to use a cleaner on their ball for 3 or 6 games at Nationals. Seems like a non-issue to me.
+100
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http://www.myspace.com/rlrussell
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: JessN16 on July 19, 2009, 04:54:40 PM
quote:
I guess I don't really see why anyone needs to use a cleaner on their ball for 3 or 6 games at Nationals. Seems like a non-issue to me.
1) Because the products have been stamped "legal,"
2) Because people use products on their balls during 3 games of league, too.
Either they're legal or they're not. So if there's a problem using them during Nationals, the logical inference to take from that is that there's a problem using them during ordinary sanctioned competition, too. And what happens if you get heavy belt marks on your balls during Nationals? You can't leave them there, as they're specifically prohibited by a separate rule.
It just doesn't make any logical sense. You play the same basic rules of golf, baseball, etc., whether you're in a practice round, a regular game or a championship. It's seems pretty clear to me that the only reason the USBC bans them at Nationals is they're too lazy to police them.
FWIW, I never use products on the ball during competition. Ever. But people who do should have that right allowed them during any other time. Otherwise, don't let cleaners/products be used during any kind of sanctioned competition.
Jess
Post by: J_L_B on July 19, 2009, 06:57:12 PM
This ELIMINATES sandbagging. You can't lie about your age....well you can, but your driver's license won't lie for you.
Have an senior division...like 50+ but allow crossing over for seniors who want to bowl on two teams (once in senior division and once in regular). Dual participation would only be allowed for those people 50+.
No more wasted administrative costs verifying averages (there's always someone who sneaks thru anyway). All you need is a valid ID and you put your team in.
Post by: Atochabsh on July 19, 2009, 11:34:36 PM
I've bowled Nationals several times now and I know I'm not going to cash. I don't even bother to get into brackets because I know I don't have a decent chance at making my money back. So that leaves me bowling and donating as a "vacation" tournament player. I'd probably go to more Nationals if there was an Elite classification that might give me a little bit better chance at some small payback if I bowl well. Now even if I bowl well, its not good enough.
But if things stay the same, I'll still bowl the events that are close and convenient to me. But I won't go out of my way to do so. Now isn't that telling? Wouldn't you think that USBC would want people to want to go out of their way to participate in this event?
Erin