BallReviews
General Category => USBC Tournament => Topic started by: strikeking on May 21, 2012, 02:53:38 PM
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First of all, if you have spectators going, make sure they take sweaters to the lanes. If you think you are going to bowl well, think again. The shot is someting I have NEVER seen in all of my years of bowling. It is flat across the lanes with back-ends that hook really hard. Miss your mark 1 board right the ball stays right. Miss your mark one board left the ball misses left. You won't see any sloppy strikes or flying pins off the side boards. Spares are a guessing game of wether or not the ball will miss left or right. The best scoring seems to be right down the middle where there is a slight bit of more oil. If you have a plastic ball, take it with you. This maybe the best ball for this condition.
We parked in the Belle parking garage and walked to the lanes through the Belle Atrium. It is a little farther but it is free.
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I have bowled there already and the reason it is cold is to control the humidity in the building. As for the shot being tough it is always a welcome challenge. I like it you have to execute and that is what bowling the nationals is about. As for the plastic ball being the best ball to use...no way. again you have to get the ball off your hand super clean, near perfect speed, generally making consistent shots. By the way don't take my post wrong as slamming you because that is not the case. The score that is posted there will not be beat and it is truly an amazing accomplishment.
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Well said Russell. And the pattern was not flat. It was difficult but it was not flat. I fyou check the lane pattern it was a 2.something to 1.
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Hey, watch out. That's some elitist comments your making! Didn't you see my post about sport bowling needing to die? :p
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Lefties have more room on the gutter from what I observed while bowling on our pair.
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This is not even close to impending doom and gloom's topic. Everyone expects the USBC shot to be tough. That's why many only go when it's in a city or area that has something else to offer. ID&G's topic concerned league bowling. Tournaments are a whole different animal, especially the USBC.
And after reading Russell go after the topic's author I must comment that I didn't get anything from strikeking's post that sounded at all like he didn't enjoy the test of the USBC shot. Just sounded like his observations!!
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My trip was a bit different than described. To start we live in the Dallas area other than one bowler, so made the trip to Arlington to practice at the ITRC. Money well spent. As far as the shot. This year showed how important the team approach is to success. Like many we practiced with surface for the first 7 minutes are close to the 7 board as our games allowed. Now for some this was 8,9,10 or even 12-15. We have one power player. Key was we worked to burn the break point. Can't say we lit it up, but we had a decent shot if we executed and it opened up faster than expected. Personally I made horrific shots in the 10th all three games and paid for it with tough spares and a couple bad chopped shots. No pattern to blame, I made bad shots. Where we saw the benifit of teams playing at least close together and outside 10 for as long as possible was doubles and singles. We caught good teams and decent crosses. We were OK in doubles as we had some carry issues, but could hit the pocket pretty easy. In singles we had 3 700 plus series out of our 10 guys, with one setting in 5th. In game two we had two of our bowlers with the front 9. None of us are PBA tour and all of us just bowl in the Dallas area bowlers bowling out a 16 lane center and traveling league. We do travel and bowl multiple tournaments together as well. Key this year and based on watching Riggs, you have to play togther and the shot was not up the middle and those that started there destroyed their opportunity to score. We are going to continue to push to get 10 bowlers, playing together with a common goal and break down the correct area for the pattern length and volume. If we can accomplish that, we hope to have our picture on the site someday. Many of us are over 50 or getting close so need to get it together pretty soon. See you in Reno.....
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Scores are down quite a bit this year. Several guys who I know well that usually shoot very good bolwed terrible this year. Not sure if this is the first year for the A22 machine, but I know tour guys said the same pattern on the new machine played a lot different than with the Ion machine. This will be my first miss since 1994 so I cant comment directly. I do know from past experience that scores are usually lower in the southeast ( Baton Rouge before, Huntsville, Knoxville were all lower than years Salt Lake, Billings, and Reno that preceded them.
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I don't know why everyone is thinking this years shot is tougher then any other year. This year is my best year at USBCs. To me it was pretty open compared to all the other times I went, which has only been 4 other times. I didn't shoot a big number,but my first 1800 though.
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I think it's tougher in the sense that a shorter pattern can be played in many many different ways and with different equipment. And this pattern played shorter than 39 feet. So you have a large collection of average bowlers who throw the ball all over the place from 4th & 5th arrow on the fresh to 1st & 2nd arrow using everything from aggressive equipment low hooking pearls. This essentially creates a mess of the lane and makes it very difficult to navigate. I think the scores have been lower on the singles/doubles side because of the inconsistencies in the way players play the lanes from bowler to bowler, lane to lane, pair to pair...The transition of lanes in the team events have also been difficult, and it's been pretty evident that even if you have 10 guys doing the same thing, it's still a tough place to string strikes.
I too had my best all events score (2059), but I never once thought that the lanes were easier than previous years. I think you have to look at the overall scores and leading scores and summarize that those scores alone indicate the lanes are tougher this year than in years past.
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What's going to happen to scores in singles/doubles next year when they reoil before every squad. Are the scores going to skyrocket or plummet?
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What's going to happen to scores in singles/doubles next year when they reoil before every squad. Are the scores going to skyrocket or plummet?
In my estimation, the highs will be higher and the lows will be lower.
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Y
What's going to happen to scores in singles/doubles next year when they reoil before every squad. Are the scores going to skyrocket or plummet?
In my estimation, the highs will be higher and the lows will be lower.
Yep. It's really how it should be. We should all be starting on the same playing field, or at least as close as humanly possible. I'm also an advocate for bowling team on one lane instead of alternating. This is only because there is no 10-player team award, but the way team is bowled these days, it's a 10-player team. Some teams don't have 10-players that can work together. If you just bowled on one lane, you wouln't have to worry about random companion teams. I don't know, the idea may seem way out of the box and not within the tradition alternating lanes, but we're all pretty much aware at this point that lane oil manipulation is a key strategy to victory and you really need all 10 guys on the same gameplan. But there is NO 10-Player team award... Maybe there should be...
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Andyman3333,
I like the idea of bowling team on one lane. It would be another step toward fairness. Just as fresh oil for every squad is touted as a move toward more fairness.
The one lane idea would IMO offer fairness to more bowlers than the fresh oil does.
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You can't bowl team on one lane, never been like that and should,never be like that. If you do that, then league should,be like that. Plus, if you are only bowling on one lane, award scores wouldn't count, or should have an asterisk next to it stating bowled on one lane. Then you could argue bowling doubles on one lane also. Really, how could u even consider bowling just on one lane.
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What would the point be of bowling team on one lane? Then it is nothing but open bowling. Call
it the Open Bowling Championship. Why can't it just be a competition to see who the best is?
why do the rules have to change? Man up and find five other guys or deal with it.
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What would the point be of bowling team on one lane? Then it is nothing but open bowling. Call
it the Open Bowling Championship. Why can't it just be a competition to see who the best is?
why do the rules have to change? Man up and find five other guys or deal with it.
Agree 100%, shoe it up and do the best you can do.
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I would find it interesting to see the scores of the top tier teams, if there companion team was in the classified division where they would not be able to help break down the lanes. As it stands today there is no rule with basically a "10 man team" breaking down a pair of lanes and I am in the mindset you do what you need to to win.
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Let's not forget that for the vast majority of people bowling this tournament it's not about winning an eagle. I would bet that 90% of all of the entries realistically have no shot at winning. Pairing the upper tier teams with "classified" teams in my opinion would deter said bowlers. More often than not these lower tiered teams go to bowl with their friends, family, etc.
As far as breaking down the lanes, those who do it well will score better plain and simple. Why should we penalize them for working as a team and having the ability to get 10 people together to work together.
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Storm, for some "classified" teams I agree that it would serve to stop them from showing up to bowl. But for others it might actually increase their excitment for nationals. I am one of the 90% who have no shot at winning an eagle and I have no problem in stating that. But I would be thrilled at bowling on a pair with Riggs, CDB, Shannon etc... My only concern would be in killing their chance at winning an eagle.
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While I'd agree it would be fun to bowl with some of the elite teams, sort of like a pro-am so to speak, I would think some of said teams wouldn't be 100% interested.
One interesting idea (and this would be a LONG shot) is to have the top (x) amount of teams to all bowl the team event on a certain day and bring some TV action into it. Again some of these teams have been going possibly on the same dates for years, but I think it would make for great coverage for our sport.
Something outside the "traditional box" of the tournament could create alot of excitement for the game.
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I would watch that over some of the PBA events that are shown on tv
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FYI much of the world, at least Europe, bowl team events on one lane and have been doing so for many years. So its not really accurate to say you can't do it and its never been done. Why wouldn't award scores count if the rules were changed to one lane bowling.
You can't bowl team on one lane, never been like that and should,never be like that. If you do that, then league should,be like that. Plus, if you are only bowling on one lane, award scores wouldn't count, or should have an asterisk next to it stating bowled on one lane. Then you could argue bowling doubles on one lane also. Really, how could u even consider bowling just on one lane.
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Have to go back to the affect of fresh every squad. Which is something I have done in the tournaments I manage for years. At this one though, it is going to mandate the team philosphy even more. You only get 2 shots on each lane for doubles so better make them count to start working on the burn area. One thing that it might help though is needing a variety of equipment to handle the big difference between fresh and the left overs in the minor events after team. Which being able to drive to Baton Rouge afforded me more so this year than when we fly. I could see 3 or 4 balls being plenty to handle the transitions and depending on volume of conditioner being able to leave the pearls at home. It was almost that way the last trip to Reno, I am thinking spare and 3 balls with a variety of surface and rolls. It will be interesting to see the pattern choice for next year with the USBC not having to worry about the pattern holding up for as many games.
I have been taking bets (in jest) that Matt sets another all events record next year. His talent, in Reno, not changing lanes in the minors...Boom. Add 200 sticks to his all events this year from the bad cross in singles.
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I see them going to a lower volume pattern next year, since each squad will be on the fresh. Time will tell.
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I think one team per lane is a provocative and interesting idea that might be more fair to all involved than companion teams.
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By going to fresh oil for singles and doubles and by also keeping bowlers on the same pair throughout, the USBC is recognizing the fact that oil manipulation (I.E. who bowls before you most importantly) dictates that all bowlers are not playing on a level playing field. You just have to watch a few pairs of lanes during a burn squad to realize it's a significant difference from pair to pair and no way to control it except to re-oil and make sure you stay on your own lanes and don't have to follow anyone. Either that, or develop an oiless lane.
USBC, to their credit, is trying to take out some of the "Luck of the Draw" that is playing a significant part in determining winners and losers each year in singles and doubles. In my 3 years, I'm averaging 217 in doubles and 248 in singles. That's significant.
The only way I see that fairness being executed on the team level is to take away the 10-player advantage, because a team in this tournament is only "Recognized" as 5-players. And the only way I see it being done fairly is by making teams bowl and manage 1 lane. This tournament isn't like traditional league bowling in that you aren't directly competing for points against the team on the same pair. I like the one lane concept and would be supportive of it.
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All of this begs the real question. Why have we let ball surfaces get so out of control that the pattern can be manipulated as easily as is now the case. I know this is not an issue for the 90% of USBC tournament participants who don't compete at an elite level, but the ball surfaces have made any long format tournaments impossible without re oiling more frequently than is desirable. Even then who you follow in a cross becomes as important as how well you execute.
This is not coming from some malcontent old codger who thinks scores are too high and that technology has destroyed the integrity of the game. I have no problem with high scoring. I just believe it should be a function how the bowler bowls, not how his companions and/or people crossing before him played.
I skipped nationals this year for the first time in 17 years, and it wasn't because of the issues I cited above, but those issues certainly made the decision easier for me.
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Had to do a follow up on this one. I had a pretty good bowler ask me last weekend why USBC thinks they have to make the pattern so tough at Nationals. It takes all the fun out of going there to bowl and he is thinking about not going anymore. This is a 220 plus bowler at different centers and averaged high for years. Happened to be left handed, so faces the conditions alone unless he happens to catch a companion team that has someone else on his side.
Is this what we have came to? The house conditions are so easy we think the Nationals should be a wall shot...Makes me want to cry, scream, something. I go to the Nationals because it is tough. I have more pride in shooting 1800 there than 2100 at a normal tournament. Shot my first 700 this year after too many years and I want that feeling a little more often because I earned this one.
As far as the luck of the draw. It is amazing how right team now that can affect your scoring. This year we could not have been luckier than what bowled in front of us on our singles lanes and a pretty good group in front of us before the doubles. They did it right and set us up for success. The same thing can happen with luck of the draw in team, we now take two teams and never have been lucky at Nationals. However, this past spring at the Southern we could not have been matched up with a better team and just shows how it could happen anywhere. Heck I would invite the 5 guys that we paired up with at Southern to go as our companion at Nationals, all 5 started right and stayed right all day while we slowly drifted left and continued to pound the pocket. As far as next year I can't wait until next February when they announce the pattern and we start going over to the ITRC to develop a game plan. I am sure now we can take our 6 for doubles/singles and develop a separate plan for that set as well as what we work out for team.
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Something to keep in mind is that 60,000 - 90,000 bowlers show up for this tournament. The shot has to be tough otherwise everyone would complain about how high the scores are. This is not your local city tournament with a THS. It is about quality shot making and a solid spare game.
Anyone who criticizes two teams playing together to open the shot is missing the point. Regardless of what the format is or how it changes, good bowlers will ALWAYS have strategies to deal with the conditions no matter what they are. Great bowlers will execute those strategies.
I do understand them oiling before S/D. Now everybody plays the same shot vs. luck of the draw with the left overs of the teams previous to you.
My one criticism for a team staying on one lane the whole event is that you lock the right-handed bowlers on the right lane on how far they can move left before stepping around the ball return (or opposite for lefties). Where the left lane would be open. That's usually not an issue for most, but still.
I love the tournament. I've never even shot 600 there playing off a 220 average. But that's on me. I know where my flaws are and I'm working on them to get better.
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Something to keep in mind is that 60,000 - 90,000 bowlers show up for this tournament. The shot has to be tough otherwise everyone would complain about how high the scores are. This is not your local city tournament with a THS. It is about quality shot making and a solid spare game.
Anyone who criticizes two teams playing together to open the shot is missing the point. Regardless of what the format is or how it changes, good bowlers will ALWAYS have strategies to deal with the conditions no matter what they are. Great bowlers will execute those strategies.
I do understand them oiling before S/D. Now everybody plays the same shot vs. luck of the draw with the left overs of the teams previous to you.
My one criticism for a team staying on one lane the whole event is that you lock the right-handed bowlers on the right lane on how far they can move left before stepping around the ball return (or opposite for lefties). Where the left lane would be open. That's usually not an issue for most, but still.
I love the tournament. I've never even shot 600 there playing off a 220 average. But that's on me. I know where my flaws are and I'm working on them to get better.
I agree with your first statement. Difficulty in the lane pattern also brings the cream to the top. You should have to work and be great at your craft to become a national champion. Some people would be happier not cashing shooting 620 than cashing shooting 550 because they could say they averaged 200+. I don't get it.
I don't think anyone is criticizing two teams working together to open the shot. But there are no 10-player team awards. Considering that if you don't have a companion team, you are at the mercy of "luck" on who you draw as a companion team, the same philosophy being implemented for fresh oil for singles and doubles, should be at least considered for the team event. Again, not every team that bowls goes with a companion team. Great teams will always have an advantage, nobody denies that. That's why they are great.
Good point about the ball returns, but I think the fresh oil will prevent anyone from needing to get that deep. Doesn't mean they won't try to get that deep, but do they really NEED to get that deep? We never got there this year and we were on the double burn (Team and singles & doubles squad before our S&D squad). But we did see a number of players way left, but I guess that's all in perspective in how you read the oil and where you think you NEED to be.
I love the tournament as well, tough condition and all and would bowl it whether it was fresh for all squads or not. Always a good time and bowling trip for me and my brother.
Good thoughts dogtown!
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The shot is made to be tough and the scores reflect that. It gives everyone a chance to compete even on a tough condition if they make their spares they are going to shoot enough to cash, and maybe even do a little better. It is also enough to make the great bowlers execute consistently or they too will not fair much better.
Game plans are what it takes to win and compete on this condition. If you think equipment is too much of a factor then you can fix it with the amount of oil. The less oil you have the quicker it will dry up when bowlers try to use their super soaker equipment. Many bowlers suffer on drier conditions as well.
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Something to keep in mind is that 60,000 - 90,000 bowlers show up for this tournament. The shot has to be tough otherwise everyone would complain about how high the scores are. This is not your local city tournament with a THS. It is about quality shot making and a solid spare game.
Anyone who criticizes two teams playing together to open the shot is missing the point. Regardless of what the format is or how it changes, good bowlers will ALWAYS have strategies to deal with the conditions no matter what they are. Great bowlers will execute those strategies.
I do understand them oiling before S/D. Now everybody plays the same shot vs. luck of the draw with the left overs of the teams previous to you.
My one criticism for a team staying on one lane the whole event is that you lock the right-handed bowlers on the right lane on how far they can move left before stepping around the ball return (or opposite for lefties). Where the left lane would be open. That's usually not an issue for most, but still.
I love the tournament. I've never even shot 600 there playing off a 220 average. But that's on me. I know where my flaws are and I'm working on them to get better.
Impressive attitude Dogtown!
And FYI: I would not worry about running into the ball return if team went to 1 lane (an idea I find very intriguing). Since they went to fresh oil for all team squads I don't believe that has ever been an issue on our right lanes. And if it is the pattern either was a bit odd or the bowlers played the lanes foolishly!
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Something to keep in mind is that 60,000 - 90,000 bowlers show up for this tournament. The shot has to be tough otherwise everyone would complain about how high the scores are. This is not your local city tournament with a THS. It is about quality shot making and a solid spare game.
Anyone who criticizes two teams playing together to open the shot is missing the point. Regardless of what the format is or how it changes, good bowlers will ALWAYS have strategies to deal with the conditions no matter what they are. Great bowlers will execute those strategies.
I do understand them oiling before S/D. Now everybody plays the same shot vs. luck of the draw with the left overs of the teams previous to you.
My one criticism for a team staying on one lane the whole event is that you lock the right-handed bowlers on the right lane on how far they can move left before stepping around the ball return (or opposite for lefties). Where the left lane would be open. That's usually not an issue for most, but still.
I love the tournament. I've never even shot 600 there playing off a 220 average. But that's on me. I know where my flaws are and I'm working on them to get better.
Impressive attitude Dogtown!
And FYI: I would not worry about running into the ball return if team went to 1 lane (an idea I find very intriguing). Since they went to fresh oil for all team squads I don't believe that has ever been an issue on our right lanes. And if it is the pattern either was a bit odd or the bowlers played the lanes foolishly!
Also even if the ball returns were to be an issue, with the new online reservations system they could have you select what lane your on, first come first serve. I know of a team that went this year a month later than normal because they didn't get their entries in on time. First come first serve basis on entries, lane assignments, squad times are the way to go in my opinion.
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Thanks Andyman3333 and Riggs.
How do you feel about the USBC not posting the oil pattern on-line?
I can see both sides. By posting it you give bowlers the opportunity to practice at home (assuming they have a house that will provide the pattern).
By not posting it, people who bowl the later dates could come here and read what other bowlers experience.
Your thoughts?
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Thanks Andyman3333 and Riggs.
How do you feel about the USBC not posting the oil pattern on-line?
I can see both sides. By posting it you give bowlers the opportunity to practice at home (assuming they have a house that will provide the pattern).
By not posting it, people who bowl the later dates could come here and read what other bowlers experience.
Your thoughts?
I have no issue with it being posted. Might even need to be posted a week or two earlier so the teams that go early have a chance to get a practice session in. It gives everyone the same opportunity to know what they are giong against. If you don't post it, odds are, the pattern will be known by a few and may leak and get in the hands of some players, but not all... It's just safer to post it and let everyone lay it out at their own house and get some practice on it. You can't exactly replicate it anyways since so much goes into how a pattern plays than just the pattern.
I've got a few guys that break the 400 rev barrier and we haven't gotten into the ball returns yet on the fresh in team event.
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Plus if you live near Arlington or are willing to travel there. They are putting it out everyday for bowlers to come out and practice. Want to pay for help, they will even provide coaching. I think posting the pattern is fine. Most bowlers have no idea what they are looking at anyway. The key I look for myself is pattern length and then feedback on if the pattern is playing tighter or looser than was expected. The 31 rule and adjust from there.
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I talked with one of the lane men recently and he indicated they are leaning toward using more oil for next year. This would really make working together more important to break down a spot. He talked about trying to get ahead of the supersoaker balls with more oil. I was sure skeptical in that new balls seemingly get stronger every month.
Obviously there's extensive testing done for this tournament and there won't be any decisions until shortly before the start.
Personally, I made a couple bad decisions early and bowled a little unsure the rest of the tournament. When I did get myself a good look, I couldn't free my swing up enough to take advantage of it. I had 1 open through the first 5 games of minors, but not enough strikes to make a real score of it. Tried something different to carry in my last game of singles only to misread for a couple opens. It really goes by so fast I wish I had a few more games.
I'm looking forward to having side events at the stadium next year. Hopefully that does happen as it seems possible. Same surface, same shot, same temperature would be nice to learn from. I can sure see Bowlers Journal tournament entries soaring if this happens. I'm sure they'll find ways to package multiple entries together even more than they already do.
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I think I agree. Posting it online makes it fair to everyone.
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Personally I think more oil is a bad idea...if you want to neutralize the hook monsters...make them hook more like this year. High end balls were pretty much useless on the fresh....and breaking them down was tricky. If you make the have more volume it will be a sea of 360 grit balls in practice and then simply take a step left.
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Personally I think more oil is a bad idea...if you want to neutralize the hook monsters...make them hook more like this year. High end balls were pretty much useless on the fresh....and breaking them down was tricky. If you make the have more volume it will be a sea of 360 grit balls in practice and then simply take a step left.
Russell, I agree with what you are saying here. I honestly think they put out the damn near perfect shot this year.
1) It was very very playable and easy to get to the pocket, but you didn't have much margin for error.
2) You didn't have to use the most aggressive equipment to get a reaction. You just needed a ball that would read and not hockey puck down lane.
3) It kept the scores competitive even if that competitive line was much lower than 600.
To one of the other posts above. I would release the pattern by the end of December to let everyone get a chance to bowl. It just helps the industry in general. I don't care for practicing on open play broken down house shots, but I ALWAYS end up practicing on the pattern before I head out to Nationals. Good way to increase activity in local bowling centers who participate.
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Pattern MUST be posted so it is fair for all. If it's not posted SOMEONE ALWAYS KNOWS. And if you don't believe that you are far too naive.
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USBC is probably looking to increase the volume of oil since there aren't many who want to head back to Reno!
Bowling Tourney, your number one contradicts itself. Easy to get to the pocket but not much room for error. The scores support that the pattern did not play easy for the masses. The pattern did keep the scores down and that was great for the bracket players. 180+ games were golden the day I bowled teams and obviously a lot of other days too when you listen to people tell you what they shot to get paid. Last night I went and practiced and when I looked up, I was +236 for 4 games. Don't you know it, a few people told me how hard they were until I pointed to my monitor and then it was "They're easier on this side of the house!" LMAO That is the mentality of why USBC feels they need to relax the shot.
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USBC is probably looking to increase the volume of oil since there aren't many who want to head back to Reno!
Bowling Tourney, your number one contradicts itself. Easy to get to the pocket but not much room for error. The scores support that the pattern did not play easy for the masses. The pattern did keep the scores down and that was great for the bracket players. 180+ games were golden the day I bowled teams and obviously a lot of other days too when you listen to people tell you what they shot to get paid. Last night I went and practiced and when I looked up, I was +236 for 4 games. Don't you know it, a few people told me how hard they were until I pointed to my monitor and then it was "They're easier on this side of the house!" LMAO That is the mentality of why USBC feels they need to relax the shot.
+236? Mama mia, what did you shoot in Baton Rouge?