Post by: Strapper_Squared on March 17, 2012, 02:32:00 AM
After starting terrible, moved inside and found nothing there.
Several 230+ average bowlers on the pair, high set was 570, and drastically dropped off from there (into the 400's)..
I don't even know what to say right now. Frustrating and disappointing... Not really looking forward to s/d.
S^2
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Edited by Strapper_Squared on 3/17/2012 at 0:33 AM
Post by: Mbosco on March 17, 2012, 02:37:57 AM
Post by: northface28 on March 17, 2012, 01:15:06 PM
”Who do you think you are? I am!!!!!” -Pete Weber
Post by: kidlost2000 on March 17, 2012, 01:37:38 PM
Sing/dbles I finally moved left hitting 25-28 at the arrows and I had 15-10 down lane with that line. Used a shinned pin up wicked siege. Wish I had started hooking the ball sooner. Will say that playing up the boards left easy spares in the middle of the lane. Had i not kept setting the ball in the ob i would have made them lol. Its all about spares. You average190 you will own brackets.
"1 of 1."
Post by: HAMBONE on March 17, 2012, 02:23:23 PM
I dont know about that comment, I shot 1200 for D/S and didnt even get my money back.
222,222,178 195,178,205 I was in regular brackets AND reverse. I spent $120 per event.
Drop and give me 10
Post by: Strapper_Squared on March 17, 2012, 03:48:47 PM
I had an awesome revs and wmb with me as "medium", had a nexxus solid above and a Khameleon below.
Relatively speaking, the lanes seemed a little more forgiving this morning. Still had very little miss room, but I felt like there was some sort of shot. Still only shot 480 and a 530 sets in s/d, but after team, that felt like an accomplishment. Last game of singles, I went pocket 7-10, pocket 7-10, 2,4,10, 4 pin, 10, sheet for 190 game.
Guy next to me shot a 730-ish in singles. Throwing a crossroad polished up..
S^2
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Post by: kidlost2000 on March 17, 2012, 03:53:53 PM
"1 of 1."
Post by: TWOHAND834 on March 17, 2012, 08:25:56 PM
Thanks for sharing. Sorry you didnt score as well as you would have liked. Each year is a different learning experience which is the cool part about going out there. Hope you still enjoyed your time out there and best wishes for next year.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: strikeking on March 18, 2012, 01:42:58 PM
Your report mirrors what I observed when I watched two teams from Florida on camera. The secret was the ten board at the down lane arrows. The real problem was if You miss inside the ball went high. If You miss outside the ball went wide. No area at all. These bowlers were starting from the 15 to 20 board at the first arrows and also a couple were going straight down 10, but if their ball did not break exactly on the 10 board down lane, they missed thr pocket. I assume the oil pattern is really flat and even at that point. With no area I guesss the best shot would be a "rocket to the pocket" from the corner to take the oil pattern out of play.
Strikeking
Post by: Strapper_Squared on March 18, 2012, 02:15:44 PM
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Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on March 18, 2012, 02:24:17 PM
This tournament has now become a tournament that caters to the pattern carving "professionals" who use this to their advantage to bowl well and win this event.
If you don't have 10 guys with the same game plan, your not helping your cause to bowl well. To find 10 guys that want to bowl with a game plan isn't always easy. Game plans and bowling ????
The pattern this year is obviously too difficult for the "league" bowler, while this is the "league" bowler's championship tournament.
Other than the fact that it's nice vacation time, the tournament is for "professional" amateur bowlers and it shows.
Embarrassing the league bowlers is not the way to prove a point. Hopefully everyone enjoyed their vacation and forgets the embarrassment.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 3/18/2012 at 12:31 PM
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on March 18, 2012, 02:40:17 PM
Help control the population of Avenging Unicorns. Arm yourselves accordingly.
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo
"I'm as frustrated as a mosquito in a mannequin factory."-Larry The Cable Guy
Post by: Russell on March 18, 2012, 02:47:18 PM
I made a comment about you needing lots of help to really compete in team event....and I see some negative comments....but let's think about this....
"TEAM" event
Isn't "teamwork" part of "team" bowling? I mean if you're bowling league with a guy who throws a parking lot grit hookmonster across 4th arrow and blows up the middle, screwing the team every week, wouldn't you say something? I mean in a tournament where it's singles...sure...no carving...each man for him/herself, but this is a "team" event. Those that work together best...win. I mean how many "team" sports don't require all players on the field to work together to achieve a goal?
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on March 18, 2012, 02:50:57 PM
But its a "league" bowlers tournament. There is no team playing in league bowling. The shot is wide open and you play where you play and you score as high as you can for your team. Your hosting a tournament for the mass members of the organization and then making them bowl a pattern that they have zero confidence in and nowhere near their comfort zone.
A tougher shot is fine for a tournament that is not for "league" bowlers. Your doing them a disservice if you put something out there that embarrasses them.
Somebody in another thread said they shot 395 in singles. Come on now, this is a good experience for the regular "league" bowlers?
Other than a vacation this tournament now is a delusional event if your not a "professional" amateur.
The USBC could do a better job with the lane conditions, and the embarrassment factor. That's all I am saying.
There is nothing wrong with a sport condition that plays around the 10 board, or track areas. The traditional scoring zones for league bowlers. When you start bumping them outside of that area, and creating mass chaos than there is going to be lots of low numbers. But you can spend $120 and your team can learn how not to embarrass themselves too bad.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 3/18/2012 at 1:02 PM
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 3/18/2012 at 1:03 PM
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on March 18, 2012, 03:01:22 PM
Help control the population of Avenging Unicorns. Arm yourselves accordingly.
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo
"I'm as frustrated as a mosquito in a mannequin factory."-Larry The Cable Guy
Post by: BigBaller on March 18, 2012, 03:37:39 PM
I shot 395 in singles... I had no shot. I would have been better off firing it off the corner...
I could have hooked plastic like belmo on what i had to play on.
I liked the shot in team. And the way i roll the ball i had a great look @ 15-7... It really played like a house shot for me once i moved inside my teamates... They didn't care none of them average over 200 and have no idea about lane carving. I am at 215 and really i keep us out of classified team. I go for the fun of it and i could never bail on them. Usually i shoot 600 in team and then 550-575 doubles and then decent 6 in singles but not this year.
My team is really the ultimate team. They have no idea what condition is out there and i really don't think they care. They all have slow speed medium revs, except for me.
I enjoy the challenge. But i am looking forward to fresh oil for minors next year.
Obviously you were not listening to your ball...
Post by: Russell on March 18, 2012, 05:51:31 PM
I missed where this is a "league" bowler's tournament? This is the USBC National Championship. The best are supposed to win...and in the team event it's the team that has the most talent and utilizes that combination of talent the best.
If someone gets their little ego inflated and then gets it popped shooting 395 in singles....maybe they need to learn to make better shots. Bowling is dying because we are handing out 220 averages and honor scores like candy. The ratio of people who can throw it right with their eyes closed as opposed to shotmakers who can actually play is ridiculous.
If you don't like to have to throw good shots...stick to your bumper bowling. I can guarantee you if they make the lanes soft and it takes 2400+ to win USBC will put the final nails in the coffin of this great game. Sorry to be brutally honest...but the truth hurts. I shot 126 in team event 1st game 2 years ago...and I deserved every pin of it. I didn't complain about the shot being too hard, I got home and worked on my timing so I wouldn't embarass the s**t out of myself the next year.
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: kidlost2000 on March 18, 2012, 07:24:07 PM
Really good bowlers win this tournament. Part of that also has to do with the fact they spend a lot of time in advance practicing on the shot before they go. The more you bowl on any shot no matter how tough, the better your chances. After bowling there I know exactly what few changes I would make and score much better then I did.
If you wanted to make things a little more fair for everyone, don't release the oil pattern. That would make it much harder for teams to strategize what they are going to do and practice on it regularly till they go bowl the event. It is a simple solution.
"1 of 1."
Post by: Russell on March 18, 2012, 07:30:06 PM
kidlost I agree with you on that point. I will say though that with the internet age and the amount of information that can spread quickly....one of 2 things would happen:
- The pattern would get leaked...enraging people that aren't privy to that knowledge....
- NOONE would want to bowl before June....they would want every chance possible to hear how to play the lanes before going. If you were stuck bowling early you would be at an even bigger disadvantage.
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: BigBaller on March 18, 2012, 07:49:13 PM
Russell, i never once complained about shooting 395 in singles. I don't feel bad about shooting 395 and my ego was never over inflated. I know what i need to work on so that never happens again. I didn't have the right equipment to shoot on that burnt of a lane.
We bowl on the 11:40 burn every year. This year was my worst ever. I shot 7 in singles in Vegas playing about the same place i was in BR. The difference was leaving splits. I felt like i was rolling the ball well i just couldn't get the ball to the pocket.
Obviously you were not listening to your ball...
Post by: Russell on March 18, 2012, 08:52:57 PM
My fault didn't mean to lump you in with that. Not meant as a personal jab at you. I know that's far below what you have shot in the past, and you weren't complaining about the lanes. I kind of lumped your situation in with someone else's comments....
Sorry.. :(
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: BowlingTourney on March 18, 2012, 09:42:08 PM
...and welcome to the Internet where one person's opinion quickly spins to a majority.
I am 50/50 at the moment. 50% of my ABC/USBC tournaments have ended in embarassment. 50% of my tournaments have been pretty decent years. Yet I look forward each and every year to having another good year. I could care less what they put out, or where they host it (save for Billings), or how I might bowl on it. I am going to be there. That is all that should matter. Shoe up and compete / participate.
Shawn Petty
Post by: kidlost2000 on March 18, 2012, 10:04:11 PM
"1 of 1."
Post by: tburky on March 18, 2012, 10:37:29 PM
Post by: Strapper_Squared on March 19, 2012, 09:56:58 AM
I attend for a vacation and a chance to see other parts of the country (Reno about 5x) and catch up with a few people that I see once a year. I don't expect to win or cash, although have been lucky a few times and received entry fees back. I don't get into brackets because I can't complete with people that dump $500 to $1000 in a set(they do it expecting to win). This is partially because I bowl 3 games a week and partially because I just don't have the consistency/ability to bowl at that level. Do I enjoy shooting 450 sets? Not really. Is there much of a difference between shooting 450 vs 600? Not really.
As far as the true "league bowlers tournament," I might argue this is more at the city, association, or state level tournaments. At the national level, you should expect the best/most talented bowlers.
Scott
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Post by: ozsweet on March 19, 2012, 10:25:57 AM
we will see what happens today at 2:30. I watched the 2 usa supports in minors yesterday - made it look pretty easy but still saw highs and lows. bottom line was always hit the back end of the far tracer on 10 with hand some hand and you struck.
my two cents on conditions (and my game is bad and I have "practiced" in years):
unless we are going to 3 divisions or not allowing regional and former tour players, it cannot be much different than it is. I am not taking sides as I would love to shoot better but bottom line is this is NOT a handicap tournament and 90% or more of the entrants need hdcp to compete with the best bowlers.
Just bowl!
Post by: TWOHAND834 on March 19, 2012, 10:39:43 AM
This is a catch 22 for the USBC and we can see both sides. On one side, they lay down a tough shot like this year and the "league bowlers" have zero chance to do much of anything. Your 200+ league bowlers are going to leave there shooting 1500 when they typically may shoot 1700-1900 in years past. They get discouraged and decide that the $1000+ spent on the trip isnt worth it and they dont go back. The argument here is that you just laid down a PBAish pattern for an amateur tournament. The irony: The USBC has their own patterns (red, white, blue) and they havent used either one of them.
On the other side, they lay out something closer to a 3:1 ratio pattern and the scores are the way they were the past few years; 2300+ winning all events and we have someone shooting 860 in singles, which is ridiculous. Then the guys averaging 230+ in league are frustrated because they feel 2000 should garner them a pretty fat check and they walk away only profitting a few hundred for the trip because alot of other people are also shooting 2000+.
The lane condition should be tough but not cater to any one style. I believe the reason that USBC went to a 2:1 pattern is simply to take bowling balls out of the equation. I think that putting an out of bounds where a miss right of 7 could garner you a 3 count is a bit excessive because now you take the guy with a 200 rev rate and tell him "Thanks for coming." USBC should understand that every year, there are people going out for the first time to try a new experience. If the 190 league bowlers proceeds to go out and shoot 1300; can the USBC really blame them if they never want to go back? I am sure that happens regardless. Granted I have not been out this year yet, but it seems like the guys that win every year are the ones capable of playing inside 4th arrow.
IMO......pretty soon the USBC should go to 3 divisions as opposed to two (regular and classified). There should be a 180 and below division, a 181-210 division, and then a 211 and above division. I think that is the only real way to make it fair for everybody. Reason is because can we really expect guys averaging in the 180s to be in the same division as someone on the level of PBA Regional Players and former National Touring Players and expect them to enjoy it each year? Granted that probably means less money in the divisions. However, it could attract even more bowlers out because they know they are playing against other on their own level. I just hope that USBC still realizes that this is an AMATEUR tournament. Just a thought........
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: Pinbuster on March 19, 2012, 10:50:48 AM
This will be my 26th National tournament.
I have done OK over the years but in recent years I have struggled some. I used to go more for the vacation but now with going to Reno half the time I am considering stopping.
Centers around here have put out the shot for some practice time. But while it definitely is not a house shot it doesn't seem close to replicating the tournament condition.
I have bowled with and against many PBA champions, Major Champions, and Eagle winners. I have no delusions that I'm nearly that good.
This used to be the championship for the non professional bowler. But as bowling has declined over the last 25 years the line between professional and amateur has blurred to the point that I don't know why they don't open it too all PBA members in any combinations they want.
And while the classified division has kept the tournament growing, it allows for unscrupulous to manipulate their averages to get in and pillage the event and makes for a monitoring nightmare.
The USBC continues to lose money and they are trying to use this tournament to fund their national operations. I hope they don't kill this golden goose. Because without the aveage Joe Bowler going it would become just a national pot game for a handfull of the top bowlers.
Post by: stopncrank on March 19, 2012, 11:39:19 AM
I can see both sides of this arguement. The lanes need to be tough, and it should be it's Nats. With that said, I agree its a catch 22 in that yes tougher shots will bruise egos, sometimes to the point that alot of folks will think twice about poneying up money for airlines, hotels, entry fees etc. Theres a fine line there, making the experience seem like work for most nowdays will turn them away.
Wheres the line in the sand? I dont have an answer, but I see it every week even at the local level, why should we be surprised when we see it at the National level? If you make it too tough, combined with travel expenses and a tough economy its only a matter of time before folks choose to stay home, then folks will complain about poor payouts and nobody wanting to compete.
Still taking your lunch money one strike at a time....
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Post by: tburky on March 19, 2012, 11:44:13 AM
Post by: Jorge300 on March 19, 2012, 11:52:28 AM
Let me add my thoughts:
First and foremost, thank you to Strapper and Big for posting your experiences, even though they may not have been your best.
Second, I agree with Russell here. This tournament is a team event, the teams that work together the best, have the best game plan and execute that game plan deserve to win. Look at the team in First presently. The last few years they struggled in this tournament. They went back worked on their games, and game back and executed a good game plan and are now leading. You have to release the pattern, otherwise a select handful will get it and have an unfair advantage over the rest. Releasing it to the public allows all to see it. And I don't see how you can't find a center that would be willing to put out the pattern for you. If you talk to the manager, explain that you could have at least 1 (but maybe more if you ask around leagues for people that are going to the Open) bowler come in during a normally dead time and throw a guaranteed 4-5 games every week for a length of time if they only put out the Open Pattern, I don't see why they wouldn't. And if they refuse, try a different center and explain that this center wouldn't do it, and I bet the other center will just to steal business from it's competitor.
And lastly, I know I haven't bowled on the pattern yet, but I have to disagree with some of what I am hearing. In the past, I agree hitting the range finder at 10 downlane was the way to play the lanes. But based on what I have seen on the webcasts, the best looks have been starting at about 5, going straight up. The Jr Team USA Support groups tried to burn up an area outside of 5 during practice then move in to use it. Team 2 looked very good games 1 & 2 playing more at about 5-7 board range. It appears the best strategy (again this is just from watching and reading) appears to be to stay outside as long as possible, balling down instead of migrating left until about the end of game 2 or start of game 3, then moving left (for a RH). If you read what Riggs reported, the team in First said that by the end of team they were only crossing 13 at the arrows. That means they had to start outside of 10 in game 1. This is just my opinion, but I think the reason some of the non-elite bowlers are struggling this year (besides the fact that the shot is just tougher then in years past) is that they are stuck in the mentality of hitting that range finder at 10. No matter where you play, you are only going to have 1-2 boards to hit to strike, but it seems that going very straight up the outside give teams the best look to start and allows the best looks later in the event.
Again this is JMHO, your's may differ.
Jorge300
Post by: Andyman3333 on March 19, 2012, 01:07:32 PM
The Champions of this tournament should be the players who take the tournament seriously. Not the ones who average 230 on a house shot and expect to fly in the night before without any practice, line up over 3rd arrow like they do at home during the first ball of team event and shoot 850. I could only imagine if any other sports champions came from a pool of amateurs who spend little to no time attempting to improve their ability and understanding of today's game.
With that said, the best players will almost always prevail no matter the condition, so 850 might not be good enough. And scores like that will ultimately scare participants away. Low scores on the other hand invite potential. People can see themselves shooting 720, 730, 3300 because they do it in league regularly. Then they get down there and find a harsh reality. And hopefully, that spawns a new desire to get better. For some, they'll just complain that they were "locked out." When reality is, they just aren't very good.
For instance, the guys leading team, spent weeks practicing as a team and devising a strategy to make the pattern play easier. To make their slight misses turn into striking opportunities. They turned that into a 3400 score and a 200 pin lead on 2nd place. 2nd place just happens to be the team that bowled with them. They prepared. And now they've put themselves in a position to possibly win. Talent will only get you so far in life. Eventually, you have to put in the extra work to be a champion.
I think it's ignorant to think you can take your ragtag house shot game to a Championship Tournament and expect to win, let alone, be competitive. On the other hand, if this is truly a vacation and you just like bowling the event, I wish you all the best and hope you have a great time. I've had a blast in my first two trips.
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
PROFILE
340-370 revs
18 mph
Arsenal: (In the bag) Nexxus F(p+r), Nexus F(p+f), Nexus f(p), C-System Ulti-Max, C-System Versa Max, Massive Damage, Karma Pink/Purple. On the wall, Loaded Revolver, Lethal Revolver, Damage, Slingshot.
340-370 revs
18 mph
Arsenal: (In the bag) Nexxus F(p+r), Nexus F(p+f), Nexus f(p), C-System Ulti-Max, C-System Versa Max, Massive Damage, Karma Pink/Purple. On the wall, Loaded Revolver, Lethal Revolver, Damage, Slingshot.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on March 19, 2012, 01:17:10 PM
I agree 100%. It is easy to draw conclusions based on what we see from other people. The lines they play only tell half the story. The equipment used is the other half. Just how strong were the balls that were being thrown? We dont really know for sure. All we know as of now, is someone went out with two older MoRich balls (Awesome Revs and Seek and Destroy I believe) and he did not bowl as well as he hoped. Drawing our own conclusions, it appears that as usual depending on the squad and who is in front of you, team event is better playing more direct and minors is better playing inside and using the range finder as the breakpoint (Team Leader 3400 playing in the track area and Singles Leader no thumbing playing 4th-5th arrow and swinging out to range finder).
I watched a few bowl on the pattern at a house here in my hometown as they took some lanes for a Demo Day and laid down the USBC Pattern. Unless, you rolled the ball fairly slow, those that were strokers, even though using the Track 716T and Columbia Dark Encounter, had little to no chance to hit the head pin when they tried to play up the outside (5-6-7). Chances are someone who is fairly rev dominate can get away with playing up the outside with a more up-the-back type release. Otherwise, they are better off in the 8-9-10 area.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: cheech on March 19, 2012, 02:38:06 PM
sacred heart university bowling, jr.
greatest accomplishment:shooting 603 and not shooting one 200 game(130,173,300)...lol
balls for sale in my profile
everyone is born right handed, only the gifted overcome it
Edited by cheech on 3/19/2012 at 12:40 PM
Post by: ccrider on March 19, 2012, 03:39:42 PM
Everyone should know that this is not a THS tournament. Instead, it is your chance to go out and bowl on a real shot and compare yourself with the rest of the elite bowlers. If you make the shot easy, you may as well do away with the Open all together. Just another THS carry contest.
I don't buy into the shot is easier for some bowlers than others. Crankers and fluffers can score on the shot if they are accurate and make their spares. In team, team strategy has as much to do with scores as bowler's style. Shoe up and bowl. Take what you make. And most of all, no babies or sissies allowed.
Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.
Most things we like, we don't need. Most things we need, we don't like. Don't confuse your likes with your needs.
Post by: on March 19, 2012, 04:01:41 PM
Today I made my 1st practice session at our house. Each year the pattern is close, but not exact to what I see at the tournament.
So far my best look was straight up 7-8 board with a "rolly solid" without polish (Lethal Revolver). The ball read the pattern and didn't jump sideways at the end. Carry was good when I got it there. Miss left and paid the price by going through the nose for the 3-6-9-10 several times. If I fluffed it outside it was usually a washout.
I did find another nice line crossing the arrows around 12-13 and hitting the marker down lane at 10 board with my Versa Max. Two games over 200, and 2 under due to splits and generally horrible shots. I plan to try at least one more session before I go to Baton Rouge in April. I am trying to eliminate certain balls that give me the least predictable look. The pattern is demanding and the bowler will need to stay relaxed to repeat shots. As far as seeing the pattern break down, it was just me today so it held up. If I learn anything new from future sessions I will post it here so others can learn what they can before we go embarrass ourselves.
Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Allstar Lanes
Brunswick Regional Staff
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on March 19, 2012, 04:16:56 PM
It's a membership tournament that is made of of a membership that is in the 170 average range. Take a membership tournament and spin it all you want.
The "professional" amateur tournament should be the Masters. If you want to show you stuff, it should be in the Masters and not the Open championship.
The Open Championship is widely regarded as the league bowlers championship, simply because its made up of league bowlers, exactly what the USBC is, a league bowler organization. It is not a professional bowling organization.
Making the lanes stupid hard, and then embarrassing the membership is not the answer to the sports problems.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 3/19/2012 at 2:23 PM
Post by: northface28 on March 19, 2012, 04:51:31 PM
USBC has opened up a Pandoras box, good luck getting the genie back in the bottle. Theyre on the verge of wrecking this tournament.
PS- I had 1813 this weekend and worked my Fanny off for every pin.
”Who do you think you are? I am!!!!!” -Pete Weber
Post by: Bill Thomas on March 19, 2012, 05:07:47 PM
I agree with northface. USBC was losing and will continue to lose entries because of back to back Reno. Now they throw in what is a very difficult shot for many of our "elite" bowlers and next to imposssible for the 75% who dont cash anyway and they are taking a significant risk of even more entries lost. USBC seems to have a penchant for screwing up good things. Let's hope they haven't screwed up the best tournament going.
Post by: bhsbigcountry on March 19, 2012, 05:14:25 PM
No offense to you but what you have been saying about the harder condition is a problem with out sport. Way way way to many "league" bowlers have gotten way to used to wide open average 230 with out any effort league shots. So when its anything other than that they cant do anything. I see it all the time around my area. Guys that average 230 bowling a few league nights a week with no practice or anything. If you average 230 whats the point of practicing and wanting to get better? But I see it all the time when these same bowlers bowl on anything other than a house shot they cant cut it and then complain about the condition being "impossible" and having to be a "pro" to bowl on them. All I am saying is that the wide open league shot has boosted way to many egos and made the sport look way to easy to way to many people.
Shawn
Post by: northface28 on March 19, 2012, 05:28:57 PM
”Who do you think you are? I am!!!!!” -Pete Weber
Post by: tburky on March 19, 2012, 05:29:28 PM
It's called a reality check for those that bowl on typical house shot (aka the great wall). They have regular and classified divisions.
Post by: MrPerfect on March 19, 2012, 05:36:19 PM
I think if it has gotten that out of hand then the proprietors should toughen up the conditions. Right now the high average in our center is 223. While I know at the super center a few miles away guys are averaging around 240 (however, these aren't league bowlers, these are US Support members that you watched bowl on Saturday).
Post by: northface28 on March 19, 2012, 06:02:00 PM
”Who do you think you are? I am!!!!!” -Pete Weber
Post by: Hoselrockets on March 19, 2012, 06:19:59 PM
Regardless if the shot is easy or tough the good bowlers and the one's that prepar the most will have the best results. The issue is nobody wants to bowl on any thing tough in leagues so when they see something somewhat difficult they are lost. Off to anothe pratice session....good luck all.
THB
Post by: Jorge300 on March 19, 2012, 06:52:49 PM
The actual joke is the league shots in 99% of the country. Why should this tournament have to "dumb down" it's shot to cater to the league bowler who is used to the Great Wall of China? The problem isn't the tournament, the problem is the league bowlers who actually believe they are as good as their house league averages. This tournament is exactly what they need so they realize that they aren't that good. The ones that will decide not to bowl anymore would be the same cry-babies that would quit their league if they actually decided to put out a tougher shot. They don't want to learn to bowl, they just want to score. They want to stand left, throw right and get strikes as long as the ball hits within a 10 board area. The USBC Open isn't about that. It is about being the best of the best. And only the teams that work together, practice, and prepare are going to do well. If one doesn't do those things, then they shouldn't expect to score well at this type of event.
My father bowled this tournament for over 25 years, and I am working on my 12th year.....and I have never heard this called a league bowlers championship. It has always, ALWAYS, been a more difficult shot than a normal league shot. The difference was in the past the actual league shots were pretty tough and the gap to jump wasn't as high as it is today. The USBC Open hasn't changed it's shot, it's the league shots that have gotten stupid easy. I will admit the shot this year is tougher then some years past, and that will happen, Next year I am sure it will be a little easier, but still it will reward consistent shot-making, and won't reward spraying the ball over 10 boards like a regular league shot.
Jorge300
Post by: Andyman3333 on March 19, 2012, 07:25:25 PM
They have a classified division for bowlers with less than a 180 average. League Bowlers have a championships too. Lots of them in various leagues and bowling centers across the country.
You can count me as one person who would NOT bowl if the pattern was a cakewalk. Because that right there degrades the years of practice I've put in to be better than average. The years I've put in bowling like crap on PBA Experience Patterns to improve my shot making ability and my understanding of lane patterns, and ball layouts.
And I think my efforts for the most part have shown in this National Championship event with back to back 2003 all events scores and top 100 finishes in singles in my 1st two years bowling in it. Yeah, I JUST FIGJAMMED A LITTLE BIT. It felt good too. LOL.
The problem with society today is people want stuff handed to them. They don't want to earn it. It isn't just a problem in bowling.
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PROFILE
340-370 revs
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Arsenal: (In the bag) Nexxus F(p+r), Nexus F(p+f), Nexus f(p), C-System Ulti-Max, C-System Versa Max, Massive Damage, Karma Pink/Purple. On the wall, Loaded Revolver, Lethal Revolver, Damage, Slingshot.
340-370 revs
18 mph
Arsenal: (In the bag) Nexxus F(p+r), Nexus F(p+f), Nexus f(p), C-System Ulti-Max, C-System Versa Max, Massive Damage, Karma Pink/Purple. On the wall, Loaded Revolver, Lethal Revolver, Damage, Slingshot.
Post by: kidlost2000 on March 19, 2012, 07:55:52 PM
I don't really have a complaint on the tournament. I average over 220+ and averaged 173 for the tournament. I had a chance to bowl two games on the pattern a day before bowling the tournament. I wasn't able to tell much other then my strike line was going to be tight.
When I got to the tournament strikes were not my issue by any means. The spares were. I kept hitting 10 or just right of 10 trying to play off the outside or my strike line for spares and the ball wouldn't move and I was too scared of the middle of the lanes and the backends being too jumpy. It wasn't till the end of doubles that I was able to figure out that by staying in the middle of the lane and using 15-20 for any spares in the middle of the lane or left that I started to improve my scores/spares.
My goal was to average 190+ for the tournament and the opportunity was missed because of easy spares in the middle of the lane. This was my first trip to nationals and my next one will be better because of willingness to change my spare approach prior to bowling the event. the true advantage is bowlers who can bowl on the shot prior to the event. The more you bowl on anything, the better your chances. When I finished single I was ready to start the tournament over because of what I was able to learn my last four games.
As far as low average bowlers go they have their own division and I saw many in that division stay close to their averages because of spare shooting. That is the theme for the tournament. SPARES
"1 of 1."
Edited by kidlost2000 on 3/19/2012 at 5:56 PM
Post by: TDC57 on March 19, 2012, 09:59:12 PM
Andy,
I agree with most of what you said. The shot should be challenging at the USBC but it doesn't have to be so tough that the bowling is almost ridiculous. I applaud you for working hard on tough conditions to become a better bowler. I've bowled nationals about 6 times. Bowled fairly well in about half of those. The first time at Reno was awful. The only thing I take issue with is that you infer bowling (in general) is too easy all over. I've been bowling in leagues for 40 years. I've bowled through the rubber, plastic, urethane and now reactive resin eras. I don't know how old you are and what you base your feelings on, but there has never been an era where getting to the pocket was that tough! It's not the lane conditions now that are so easy, they've never been that tough unless someone deliberately put out a very tough shot. It's the balls that have created the havoc. You can buy something that can overpower just about any type of shot.
The condition the USBC lays down isn't about bringing the "league" bowler back to earth, it's about taking the balls somewhat out of the equation and forcing shot making to be the most important thing. Let's face it today when bowlers go to Nationals, they individually, have very little chance to win strictly on their own ability. It now comes down to making sure you have others bowling with you to help break down the lanes so you can open up a certain shot to help you score. When you see a bunch of "regular Joe" league bowlers bowl there, they invariably struggle for the most part. They aren't doing that! The winners of each event are almost 100% of the time, guys who team up to break the lanes down. I'm not sure that's what the founders of the ABC were thinking of when the tournament was started. They never for once thought it was going to have to be a group of guys helping someone win singles or a buddy team helping another break the lanes down so the other could have a chance at winning an eagle and splitting the money with them. Every thing isn't about having something given to you unless you also include bowlers wanting fresh conditions for each shift so their group has a better chance at teaming up to break down the lanes.
One other thing to all the guys who posted and come off as bowling snobs. The majority of the bowlers who sanction with the USBC are just league bowlers and keep shooting your mouths off from your high horses and a game that is losing membership every year will eventually be left to you and with that will wither and die!!
Edited by TDC57 on 3/19/2012 at 8:06 PM
Post by: TDC57 on March 19, 2012, 10:44:20 PM
TWOHAND834,
I just read your post from 3/19 at 8:39, It was an excellent written and well thought out piece that nailed the subject exactly.
Post by: r534me on March 19, 2012, 11:18:48 PM
I would add that it's important to leave makable spares and preferably single pin leaves. Last year, I shot 599 in doubles and I only had one double and one turkey in three games and the turkey came in the 10th frame! I didn't miss a makable spare. Splits, that's another story.
Post by: BigBaller on March 20, 2012, 12:12:05 AM
I like nationals the way it is. I am going to like the fresh for every squad.
I go to nationals looking to average 190 or better every year. I was on my way untill the wheels cam off in singles.... I Dont get to bowl on the tough conditions, ever. I just don't have the time. I bowl on the finest house china 2 nights a week. And those are the only 2 nights a week i have to myself.
I practice my spares.
I once had a coach in juniors that said "son, strikes will get you ass, spares will get you cash". I already have the first so i focus on the cash aspect...
Obviously you were not listening to your ball...
Post by: BigBaller on March 20, 2012, 12:24:08 AM
I have to chime in again... Sorry this topic got so off the original post.
I think the problem most people have with this tournament is that the only thing they see is the house china. Like i said in my last post, i have 2 nights a week to bowl. I bowl a late mens league wednesday night. I get home at midnight. The up to work at 5 the nxt morning. Then i get to bowl thursday night right after work. The only thing i ever get to see is a house shot.
I have kids and work. And I focus on my family. It seems like every other summer i am lucky enough to have 1 night a week where they have a PBA expierence league on a free night, so i get to bowl on a tougher shot there but i don't get to do that consistantly.
But i go to nationals with realistic expectations.
Obviously you were not listening to your ball...
Post by: r534me on March 20, 2012, 03:59:51 AM
I had hought. It is all about shot making. However, unless one is able to practice sport shots and practice with others a person might not see the transition that occur during the team event. I do think it will help one improve his shot making.
I like this thread. It has a lot of great opinions.
Post by: WOWZERS on March 20, 2012, 08:17:12 AM
Ok, correct me if I am wrong.
I read where the average league bowler in the United States has an average of 170 or 175. On soft conditions. So, if you lump the entire membership together, our composite average would be 170 or somewhere very close. This coming from a 220 bowler on soft and 205 on Sport, the average bowler in our membership has NO chance at this tournament. Heck, I have no chance when I go down in a few weeks. I might make some money, but not an Eagle.
I have bowled scratch leagues for years, but they are dieing out. Why? Because much of the attitude we have seen in this thread, the I am better than you because I can afford to practice, afford to bowl 10 times per week attitude has become stinky and bowling alleys do not want to put up with the high maintenance bowler that scratch bowlers have become.
I believe that the tourney should have a condition that is equal and fair for everyone. Something tougher than your normal house soft wall, but no way should it be anywhere close to the pattern we see this year, and maybe for the last few years. The 170 person has no shot. Does everyone realize that if the average bowler averaging 170 has no shot, by definition, the pattern is skewed toward less of the membership because only the folks that average much higher than the membership average have any chance at the big win.
Don't give me the stuff about the lower division. Yep, its there, but its almost a slap in the face. Maybe instead of putting out a Sport condition, one year we put out a soft condition for the lower average bowlers and if the high average guys, like me, still want to play, we get a side event where we can play amongst ourself, much like the lower average bowlers do today.
Post by: MrPerfect on March 20, 2012, 10:48:59 AM
While I don't really see a problem with the current format I'm always down for a tournament having more games. I'd love it if there was a side event for high average bowlers that was a 10 gamer on a sport shot while at Nationals. It would give me something to look forward to as tournament bowling in Florida has slowly gone the way of the dodo outside of some really well run tournaments by some South Florida Centers and Erik Ramos and his Southern Shootout.
Post by: r534me on March 20, 2012, 11:10:45 AM
Yet, thousands of teams bowl it every year. Maybe, it's not just an eagle they are after? This could be a new thread, "Why do you bowl the nationals when you have so little chance of winning it?"
Post by: WOWZERS on March 20, 2012, 11:39:31 AM
Yep, thousands of teams bowl it every year, but how long have we been talking about the decrease in participation? Is it because of Reno every year almost? How about tough shots? How about the bad economy? Less and less teams are bowling every year, so yes, while many folks do bowl it every year, they are becoming less and less plentiful.
I go because I treat it as a vacation with some bowling and good times with friends. However, when one friend can't go because his wife lost her job or another person is sick of the tourney because of the Reno experience that he will not go anywhere else, we lose the extra padding if we don't do something to draw competitors back. Alienating a group of bowlers from the get go is not the way to get participation back. Good bowlers (not great/wonderful/top of the line) like me are NOT the rule, we are the exception.
Post by: r534me on March 20, 2012, 11:52:38 AM
Then the next thread could be why one does not go to the USBC open championships anymore?
There should be some churn in the nationals. Some teams will drop out and new ones will sign up to replace them. Hopefully, the numbers are on the plus side.
Generally speaking, leagues have very little churn in them and that's a major problem that probably affects the national tournament participation more than the lane conditions and venue. I am sure you have seen it. A team or two drop out of the league and the center is scrambling to find replacement ones.
Post by: Jorge300 on March 20, 2012, 12:02:09 PM
Wowzers,
You may be correct in that fact. But I think you are forgetting something. I mentioned this in my previous post. You say the shot has been tough at the Open for the last few years. That is not true. The shot has ALWAYS been tough at the USBC Open/ABC Championships. My father, when he was alive, went to this tournament for almost 25 years. This man bowled in fire company lanes around PA, where the shots were always difficult. And he usually failed to make his average when he went. The shot at the Open hasn't gotten harder. It may now be a true sport shot, but it was always close if not one, even before anyone knew what that was. Yes, the shot this year is on the more difficult end of the spectrum, no one is denying that. But that happens every once in a while, just like you get easier ones like in Billings.
My question is why in just the last few years has this been such an issue? When my father went, you went knowing you weren't going to score as well as you did at home. you did your best and took what you could get. The problem, from what I can tell, is back then people understood that what you bowled in your leagues, wasn't a true indication of your skill level. Today, people don't think that way. They average 200-210 and think they are great bowlers, they think they can compete with the pros they see on TV shooting 180's and 190's. They don't realize the dedication and sacrifice it takes to truly be good bowler. And when this gets pointed out, what happens, you get called elitist. Bowling today is about throwing lots of strikes, getting honor scores and averaging 15-20 pins higher then the actual talent of the bowler. Find any league and try to put in a more difficult shot in, and watch what happens....you get more whining and crying then in your local daycare. No one wants to take the time and effort to actually be good at this sport, they want the balls and the lanes to do it for them. Name another sport where people get rewarded for not having skill in that sport???
Jorge300
Edited by Jorge300 on 3/20/2012 at 10:13 AM
Post by: WOWZERS on March 20, 2012, 12:19:30 PM
Jorge,
Tha pattern has always been tough, but I think when you add in the fact of a bad economy, Reno every year for the next century, and other issues, the bowlers who have no shot of winning will pinpoint what have troubled them all along, but because they were having FUN the shot did not matter. Take away the fun and now the shot and every piece of the remaining puzzle is more important than ever before.
Not saying the shot shouldn't be tough. Not saying the shot shouldn't reward the better players. I am one of them. However, we have a dwindling customer base and have to do something to stem the tide. What the USBC has turned into is a resource tournament. How much time can I practice on the shot before going, in addition to my normal leagues, works, etc. How many bowling balls can I take? How many nights a week can I drop $100 or more in brackets. Take your average family man or woman. They do not have those type of resources. They have expenses that prevents them from taking a dozen bowling balls. They have committments that prevent them from practicing for weeks on the shot before going. They have bills that prevent them from practicing or bowling league more than once or twice a week. Those are the types of bowlers we are losing.We need their participation. Those bowlers feel beaten before they even step on the lane. 5 years ago, they did not feel that way. They had a better outlook on the tourney because they went to different cities, they felt that somehow, even though last year they shot 132 or whatever, this year could be different. That has changed. The perception has changed that this is now an ELITE bowlers tournament, a group of bowlers with vast reserves of resources as mentioned above, not a tournament that caters to the majority of the membership.
Do we want the USBC to change? I would like to think my skill gives me a better chance to win. However, just like the PBA, there will not be a USBC in X years if changes do not occur, even changes that makes the tournament easier for more bowlers, which would anger some of the better bowlers. But once again, if bowlers averaging 200+ make up 30% of the membership and bowlers that average below 170 make up 50% of the membership, wouldn't you rather have a tourney that goes after more bowlers for larger prizes, or would you rather have a tough tournament that only appeals to a small amount of the membership and run the tournament into the ground?
I would rather have a tourney to go to than to say to my kids, your dad bowled in the USBC tourney before it closed down. Even if it means I shoot 750 and don't cash or lose money in brackets.
Post by: Jorge300 on March 20, 2012, 12:51:21 PM
Wowzers,
I understand people's frustration with Reno so often. I too liked travelling around to different cities. But, the same bad economy that isn't allowing the bowlers to do things they want is effecting the USBC too. The tournament is in Reno so much because Reno can give the tournament a deal other cities can't. It can give them a deal that means the tournament will stay profitable, even as the number of entries decrease. We could easily go to another city, even on the East Coast and see a decline in entries, and then the USBC Open might lose money. That is a bigger risk to the tournament, and more of a factor of it closing down, then going to Reno every year. What I don't understand is the same people who complain that they don't have the resources to practice on the shot, buy a new ball or two for the shot, because of the bad economy are the people complaining the loudest about going to Reno so often. It's like it's ok for the bad economy to effect them, but not ok that it effects the USBC Open. I tend to be a realist when it comes to this. I understand why it's Reno so often. I may not like it, but I am not going to get all up in arms about it, because it is an understandable solution to the world economy at this time and the forseeable future.
So now these people have always had an issue with the shot too??? I don't think that is correct. I think this is just another excuse giving people something to complain about. As I said, find a league anywhere in the US that has a bunch of 220+ average bowlers in it, and toughen up their shot. I have seen it happen. One center where I grew up in PA tried it very early on after short-oil came out. They were forced to go back to the easy shot because bowlers were threatening to walk out of the center. They would go bowl in another center just to score well, no matter the fact that bowling on the tougher pattern would have made them better bowlers, better at the SPORT of bowling. People don't want bowling to a sport anymore, they don't want skill to actually figure into who wins and loses. All they want is high scores, lots of stirkes, and lots of honor scores. And I'm sorry if it makes me sound elite, but I would not want to bowl in the USBC Open on an easy condition. An Eagle is one of the most prestigous awards one can win in our sport. I want to know that any money I win or lose at the USBC Open is done because of my actual skill as a bowler, not because someone outcarried me.
I don't mean this in a bad way, the USBC Open/ABC Championships have always been about the Elite bowlers. My father and his team had no shot at winning an Eagle when they went 30 years ago. Not once did I hear them complain about the shot. The Elite bowlers have always won the Eagles. Why now is it an issue? Again the shot has always been tough, to varying degrees. This year it has swung a little more to the harder side, no question, but other years it has swung the other way, see Billings for example. It will always swing back and forth a little bit. You mention the breakdown of membership.....do you think that has suddenly changed? I am willing to bet that breakdown has always been there. The difference again is the fact that the league shots have gotten too easy and people's averages are not equal to their skill level. In the past, the league shots were tougher, so one's league average was closer to what one could expect to bowl at the USBC Open. Yes, you more times then not came in under your average but not by much. Now, people's averages are 10,15, even 20 pins/game higher then their real skill level. And then when they hit the USBC Open, they don't even come close to their league averages. I am no different, I average about 197.5 at the USBC Open, a far cry from my 230+ league averages on THS. But I know that my 230+ average is a joke and that I am really not that good. Others don't seem to get that fact, and so they complain about the shot being too tough.
Jorge300
Post by: txbowler on March 20, 2012, 01:48:04 PM
I think the difference that is starting to appear now is that most of your standard league bowlers have grown up in the 220+ era of THS. They were not around when the lanes were tougher and the balls were not the high-tech marvels of today. It's a different generation of bowler.
Everyone keeps talking about back in the day. That generation is going away. USBC and the open needs to determine if the current way of doing things will keep the current generation of bowlers happy.
Post by: WOWZERS on March 20, 2012, 01:51:09 PM
Jorge,
I think you make many good points, but in the end, I still think we need to open up the tournament to more bowlers in the sense of scoring. I do agree that we know you and I are not 230 or 220 average bowlers. That is why I average 205 on Sport and you mentioned a 197 average at USBCs. We understand that, but we are the exception to this. I hope to grind out some 600s in a few weeks and make some dough in brackets. I think it can be done with some good spare shooting and not getting into trouble on the first shot.
Good luck!
Post by: Russell on March 20, 2012, 02:25:03 PM
There are a lot of good responses here....but I think there is something missing. The people who win are those who are the best...isn't that the point of a championship? I mean let's think about what would happen to scoring if they really made them soft. In the past couple of years the pattern was far from "easy", yet guys were still pushing 2300+ in all events. Can you imagine if they actually made them easy. Guys would bang out 2250 all events, leaving a couple of corner pins here and there and come home with a big bar tab, nothing more.
Look at your local tournaments...city...state....what are their participation numbers trending? In Georgia ours are very quickly declining. Each year they are held on china and it takes 2200 to even think about making any money. I bowled city this year for the first time in a while because it was in my center...no other reason.
Let's look at participation in Nationals....with the DRAMATIC decline in league bowling the tournament has grown between 1980 and a few years ago when the economy tanked. Why is that? It keeps getting bigger because of the challenge...because on that condition all it takes is a couple of big games at the right time. You shoot 700 in singles...you probably just paid for your trip....1320 in doubles...something to be proud of....3000 in team...here's a nice check.
You start catering to the guys with 450 revrates that need a small Volkswagen down the lane to hit the pocket and you'll lose what's left of the game's credibility. Imagine if the PGA tour made all of the holes 440 yard par 4s with 60 yard wide fairways and flat greens. How would Tiger's ability to shape shots be an asset then?...would golf be as exciting watching the guys just come out of their shoes and shoot 60 every day? Before someone calls me on it, yes we're talking about amateur bowling and that is professional golf....but it's a national championship...not a "feel good" gathering of house mouses.
Keep the integrity....keep the scores lower....keep the guys who don't want to put the time and effort into the game off of the leaderboard. If that's too much to swallow....find another sport that will let you put an hour into it a week and be "elite"......oh wait there isn't one.
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: Jorge300 on March 20, 2012, 02:30:08 PM
Wowzers,
I am going next week actually, and I hope for the same. Thanks for the wishes of luck and may the bowling gods shine on you as well as you make your trip to Baton Rouge.
Plus, I know I am the exception to the rule, as you are. I have seen it first hand. I don't understand why though. I just can't fathom someone going to the USBC Open, bowling bad, and saying the shot is too hard. My first reaction is that I threw the ball bad, I need to get better, and I need to work at x,y, z in order to make that happen. Have you ever heard a baseball player blame something else for why they failed to perform? A football player?? I never hear them say, I would have hit the game winning home run but the stadium makes it too hard to hit homeruns. Yet bowlers are always first to blame other things, especially the shot being too hard. It goes back to what I said earlier, I think, and that is that people do not want the Sport of bowling, just the easy "game" it has become.
Jorge300
Post by: storm making it rain on March 20, 2012, 02:31:48 PM
I think as with anything, Nationals is what you make of it. I preface my comments by stating that I'm a high average bowler at home, i've been going to nationals since it was in Syracuse, and I go with my family and a companion team from our center that doesnt understand the teamwork factors involved.
Although anyone can catch fire and have a great two days of bowling and possibly win that all elusive Eagle, 95% of all the bowlers that attend KNOW they don't realistically have a shot but yet keep going. For me personally there's still plenty of money to be made out there without being the top 5% of the field. The last few years my trips have cost me absolutely nothing to go with my winnings in brackets/tourney prizes. Could I win an Eagle, sure anything is possible on any given squad.
I believe the scoring conditions should stay hard, afterall this is the NATIONAL Tournament. The only thing that could even it out slightly is not to release the pattern so people could strategize for months before going. But in this day and age of the internet and so forth that is nearly impossible.
Bottom line is the cream will just about always rise to the top of the leaderboard. If some of the SUPER house guys can't handle the tougher shots, it's pretty simple don't waste your money to go. I think there's a certain pride factor to bowling in the Nationals, honestly my 9 other guys on our teams know they have no shot at winning an Eagle, but yet we go every year no matter the location.
Good luck to those that are going soon, I'll be making the trip the end of May.
Post by: WOWZERS on March 20, 2012, 02:58:47 PM
Jorge,
Agreed. First thing that comes to my mind is did I come around the ball...was I too soft...too firm? What did I do wrong. The problem is most of the bowlers today did not come up like this. Its they always throw the ball crisp and on the money and the pin was off spot or the lane did this or whatever. Frustrating, but that is where our game is at today.
Good luck to you as well. Hope you throw the ball well and score well.
Wowzers
Russ,
Once again, you and I are the exception. I can bowl well enough to stay with some horses for a little while, but eventually I will make more mistakes and lose over a long format, just like the good old PBA days. The problem is when we lock the membership's tourney into a tourney that only a handful of groups can win, eventually we will lose something. Look at what happened when the PBA went to exempt fields. We lost Hoskins and other greats because they did not make the exempt cut. Now that the exempt tour is going away, will those bowlers come back? Nope. We lost them forever. Apply the same principle here. We are locking out a group of bowlers. Once we lose them, we lost them forever. We cannot afford that right now.
I would be in favor of splitting the USBC into 2 divisions...one for the Sport shot and one for the little bit harder than house shot. Enter both if you wish or pick your poison. Then, we have catered to the folks who want to spray and pray while we split boards on the Sport shot.
How would you do prize funds or awards. I have no idea. Just throwing out some thoughts on how to retain a piece of our membership we are about to lose if something does not change.
Wowzers
Post by: Uncle Crusty on March 20, 2012, 03:38:00 PM
I completely, totally, unquestionably agree with people like Russell when it comes to the Open Championships. I usually bowl a couple THS leagues every season, and I'll be the first to admit that me and the crew of guys I bowl with have been known to partake in our fair share of adult beverages at the lanes, talk plenty of smack to one another, be a little boisterous, and, in general, not take it too seriously. At the end of the day, we just want to have a good time, pop off a couple honor scores on the mega-wall, make some questionable ball choices, flag some easy spares, and maybe make a couple bucks.
But when it comes to the Open Championships, it's a totally different mentality. We try to assemble the most talented group of guys possible. We spend months talking strategy. We practice as much as possible. We spend plenty of time at the shop drilling stuff we know might work. We do our research (for example, while most of the world was out celebrating their Irish heritage this weekend, at least one guy in our group was at home with pen and pad in hand watching the live stream of the Team USA Support teams hoping to get a read). We communicate. At the end of the day, we put the time, effort, and money into the tournament that gives us the best chance of success, and I'm certain that's why we collectively fare very well every year. Of course, there are and will continue to be off years for everyone (myself most definitely included), but it's seldom due to lack of effort.
That said, I find it insulting (and unfortunately very telling of the current state of the game) that people (and these people are everywhere, I'm in no way calling out anyone in particular) expect to saunter onto the tournament lanes having done no research or put in any practice time, plop their feet on 30, fire their favorite piece into the track for 9 games, shoot 2,200+, make a fortune, and maybe win an Eagle. If you put in the time and effort, you'll probably succeed. If you don't, then you'll probably be disappointed. And frankly, that's how it should be. It's called "Championships" for a reason. The best should (and will) rise to the top. It's that simple.
But when it comes to the Open Championships, it's a totally different mentality. We try to assemble the most talented group of guys possible. We spend months talking strategy. We practice as much as possible. We spend plenty of time at the shop drilling stuff we know might work. We do our research (for example, while most of the world was out celebrating their Irish heritage this weekend, at least one guy in our group was at home with pen and pad in hand watching the live stream of the Team USA Support teams hoping to get a read). We communicate. At the end of the day, we put the time, effort, and money into the tournament that gives us the best chance of success, and I'm certain that's why we collectively fare very well every year. Of course, there are and will continue to be off years for everyone (myself most definitely included), but it's seldom due to lack of effort.
That said, I find it insulting (and unfortunately very telling of the current state of the game) that people (and these people are everywhere, I'm in no way calling out anyone in particular) expect to saunter onto the tournament lanes having done no research or put in any practice time, plop their feet on 30, fire their favorite piece into the track for 9 games, shoot 2,200+, make a fortune, and maybe win an Eagle. If you put in the time and effort, you'll probably succeed. If you don't, then you'll probably be disappointed. And frankly, that's how it should be. It's called "Championships" for a reason. The best should (and will) rise to the top. It's that simple.
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."
-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann
Edited by Uncle Crusty on 3/20/2012 at 1:41 PM
Post by: Bill Thomas on March 20, 2012, 04:08:16 PM
TDC57 made the most intelligent post i have read on this thread. Everyone should go back and read it again. What he says makes a whole lot of sense.
Post by: Bill Thomas on March 20, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
More intelligent input from WOWZERS. What many of you are failing to see is that the USBC Open is losing bowlers. No matter what the reason, i.e. Reno, sport conditions, whatever, if the losing of entries continues the tournament will turn into something other that a "national" championship. USBC treats the tournament as a "cash cow" to fund their operations. How long do you think it will be with continuing decline in entries before either USBC has to charge an exorbitant fee or change the tournament to something that will attract more entries. I say they need to offer a couple of tiers based on USBC Open Tournament averages. Maybe 170 and under, 180-200, 201 and above. With the higher classification being the one where "Eagles" are awarded and anyone is allowed to enter that category, including all PBA members and without limitation as to the number on a team, that would be a true "National Championship". To continue to force the average bowlers to compete with former PBA champions, regional PBA title holders, Team USA members, and other means of loading teams IMO will eventually be the death of the USBC Open.
Edited by Bill Thomas on 3/20/2012 at 2:56 PM
Post by: bhsbigcountry on March 20, 2012, 05:20:21 PM
So then appealing to joe house bowler who wants to be good without practicing is the way to fix the situation? I dont understand why we have to appeal to people who dont take the time to truely understand the game and want to get better at it. I guess this is more my personality. I dont care what it is I want to learn as much as I can about it and practice to get better. I dont expect to be good at golf without practicing and putting the time in. Why should this be different for bowling?
Shawn Naumann
Post by: ksucat on March 20, 2012, 06:06:51 PM
I sat in on the directors meeting for the Southwest tournament recently and the discussion about how to improve the tournament came up there again. This tournament has been around for 20+ years and has always been played on a typical house shot. Scores now are outragiously high. However, my view on this is that you can't change the history of this tournament as an experiment to see if you can raise new bowlers. The folks that have been coming for years know what to expect.
Moving on to the USBC Nationals, which is likely the most prestigious with the most participants that us amateurs have. The long century-long history is that this is held on difficult conditions that put a premium on shot-making abilities and knowledge of adjustments including working as a team. I think the consensus is to keep the shot difficult, but this doesn't mean the same for everyone. Too many different styles to make it the same difficulty for everyone. I've personally ranged almost 500 pins from highest to lowest all-events over the years.
I choose to go to Nationals for the chance to compete on a challenging lane condition and beat most of my fellow bowlers. I go trying to finish in the top 100 with an eagle being only a dream. A top 100 finish in this tournament along with brackets will typically pay for a nice vacation out of this.
I'd also agree with the sentiment of changing sites more often as Reno is a bit tiring and not what the century-old tradition has been.
Post by: Jorge300 on March 20, 2012, 06:12:11 PM
Bill,
I have no issues with adding a new division. But with each divide you invite a new set of problems, for example....what is the fair distribution of money? How much higher will the overhead costs be trying to verify averages for 2 divisions instead of one? How many more people will sandbag to get into a lower tier under this system? What about the 180 average bowler having to compete with a 200 average bowler, is that fair??? Every argument made today can be made again even with a 3 tier system. And what happens is you wind up with something like the Women's championship with it's 5 or 6 divisions and lower entries then even the USBC Open.
Shawn,
Great post and I agree 100%.
I would like to ask that those arguing for easier conditions answer the important question raised by Shawn. Would baseball change it's game to make it easier for people.....making all pitchers throw underhand? Would football change it's game to make it easier for the regular guy to play??? Why should bowling be the only SPORT ( I emphasize that again, bowling is a sport) to make it easier for the "regular joe" to compete against the best??
Jorge300
Edited by Jorge300 on 3/20/2012 at 4:13 PM
Post by: kidlost2000 on March 20, 2012, 08:34:54 PM
I agree on when possible having the tournament travel some to other parts of the country. It makes it easier for some to travel from all over the country to bowl this event. It also opens the tournament regionally in areas to new bowlers that normally wouldn't travel to Reno and in turn may get more bowlers interested in traveling to the event that previously wouldn't.
Another option depending on the turn out for each division would be dividing it up in to three average groups. Say 0-160, 161-200, and 201+
There may not be enough bowlers to support that but it could be another option to consider for bowlers in there respected average groups. If you truly average 180 your only donating at this tournament for the experience. Just a thought.
"1 of 1."
Post by: Pinbasher209 on March 20, 2012, 09:00:25 PM
People say there's no crying in Baseball, but I see a lot of Crying in Bowling . If your not practicing to be the best why should you be rewarded. Take the time to learn the sport, practice as much as you can to perform at a top level then you can reap the benefits and appreciate your reward. I enjoy bowling on tough patterns as it makes me a better and more complete bowler. I have my arsenal built thru trial and error. Am I not one of those 230 Avg bowlers, Heck no not by a long shot, but I am still working at my game to refine it. I bet the same guys who complain want or probably have "WAHSAM" in the houses and don't even know it.. If you don't know what "WAHSAM" is pull it up on you tube and educate yourself, There are those who like a challenge, and there are those who complain. Which are you? Keep giving me the tough pattern's I Love the Challenge 
And for heavens sakes stop the 
And for heavens sakes stop the Post by: TTforshort on March 20, 2012, 11:41:44 PM
Bill Thomas-"To continue to force the average bowlers to compete with former PBA champions, regional PBA title holders, Team USA members, and other means of loading teams IMO will eventually be the death of the USBC Open."
I must agree with this statement. The USBC Tournament should be playable by bowlers of all abilities. More divisions would see logical. Averaging 180+, I sure don't want to compete with the elite bowlers.
TT
“A word to the wise ain’t necessary — it’s the stupid ones that need the advice.â€.
Post by: Russell on March 20, 2012, 11:52:37 PM
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: JessN16 on March 21, 2012, 12:13:42 AM
From a guy who has no chance to ever win this thing (206 book average, and I try my hardest on every shot I make in my leagues), I do not want to see the pattern made easier.
I bowl in plenty of THS tournaments and you know what happens there? I get passed in the air by the 230 guys.
I've bowled sport shot leagues before. Guess what happens there? I get passed in the air by a bunch of 230 guys again, except now they're shooting 200s and I'm shooting 170s-180s.
But what those harder conditions do is remove some of those 230 guys from my field of vision. Some won't even shoe up to start with. Some of the ones that do have a one-dimensional game, with everything moving from left to right, no spare game at all. Now they're coming back to me faster than I'm moving backwards myself.
There's a reason I shoot better on USBC Blue than USBC White, and why my average on PBA Viper is the same as my THS average: I match up and can play places some of those guys never have to try to play.
So while I'm struggling along with 170s at Nats (if I'm lucky) in a few weeks, I'll be doing it with a hopeful look on my face, and trying to learn, rather than Mr. Cake who's also shooting 170 off his 230 book and getting pissed off to the point of distraction.
What this sport needs most is to educate the existing bowlers on how this system works. Then they might learn to actually seek out tougher shots.
Jess
Post by: Hoselrockets on March 21, 2012, 01:29:56 AM
+1 for this post!! Only if more bowlers had this mind set. Good luck at Nationals!!
THB
Post by: tburky on March 21, 2012, 07:27:16 AM
One of the biggest issues with the southwest tournament is bowling on "the great wall" and allowing the amount of handicap and sandbagging that goes with it. I've seen 165 to 180 average bowlers shoot 700+ every year. If the current amount of handicap is allowed to exist then the wall needs flatten. All a person has to do is look at the standings of the all events at this tournament will see what I'm talking about. One of the biggest problems with bowling today!
Edited by tburky on 3/21/2012 at 5:28 AM
Post by: Bill Thomas on March 21, 2012, 10:27:35 AM
Russell,
You are right to be concerned about sandbagging. That is going on now in the classified division as bowlers who compete in "uncertified" sport leagues and "brickyard" houses manage their average. That is why I have been advocating for several years now that entrants must use their USBC Open average for at least 27 games (3 years). Newbies would have to compete at the highest level until reaching 27 games. To me it is ridiculous to use house averages when they vary so much from center to center, locale to locale. BTW, I'm not stuck on how the divisions would be seperated by average. I think some statistics developed by USBC based on Open scores for a number of years would give some data upon which to establish the divisions.
Edited by Bill Thomas on 3/21/2012 at 8:31 AM
Post by: Jorge300 on March 21, 2012, 10:30:28 AM
Let me add to this. In PA, there was a tournament called the "Dutchman". When I lived there, for 2-3 years straight the winning score in Singles was over 900. You heard me correct, OVER 900. The shot was an easy house pattern and people came in with high handicaps and shot high 700's or low 800's and with handicap there total score was over 900. Coming in as a scratch bowler, I immediately had no chance to win Singles. Is this what we want for the USBC Open?? You say give the average bowler a chance to compete.....how can they feel they can compete when they show up to bowl and high for Singles is 890, or 878? And low to cash is 750??
Jorge300
Post by: Jorge300 on March 21, 2012, 10:31:10 AM
I agree, great post!! Good Luck!!
Jorge300
Post by: Minnesota Don on March 21, 2012, 12:31:27 PM
I've been bowling since I was 7; this is my 55th year so do the math. I have 26 trips to the ABC/USBC Nationals and only for the first 10 or so did I ever think I had a chance or my teams had a chance of finishing in the top 100. We went and keep going for the personal quest of competing against the best on the toughest conditions. This year’s shot was not much different for the team event than in years past but the dbls/sgls were extreme. Depending on your time slot you could be the third shift on the same oil after a team event. New scheduling for the upcoming tournaments will help but I feel the tournament will diminish over time if something is not done to bring back the flavor or romance it once had when I started going on these bowling pilgrimages.
I'm one of these 220 house bowlers who have a lifetime USBC average around 185. The shot is tough, the time to prepare is short and for many the traveling takes its toll. There are several things I think they can do to make this tournament better and improve the average bowlers experience. First is to move the location each year, bring it to Reno, Vegas or anywhere else less often. It's a major expense to enter the tournament and increasing each year, flying is a pain and traveling by car requires additional vacation time to travel. The tournament needs to return to being a Championship Tournament and not a cash cow. If bowlers don't want to go because they can make more in other tournaments so be it. Attend and compete because it's the Nationals.
I believe there should be two classifications, an Open and a Classified. What I would change is that all bowlers and teams could enter the classified division based on their USBC tournament average not an inflated THS average. You could require a minimum 5 year average history to use it but it would be more representative of a bowler’s competitive skill than the system used now. Open the classified to all averages with no max and have three or four classified classes. 159 and below, 160-185, 186-200 and 200 and up.
The change to classifications and moving the tournament would bring back some interest. In my opinion the tournament should be a break even event. I don't know if the USBC makes anything off of the tournament but as a service organization it doesn't need to make a profit off of the tournament. Stop requiring a bid to host the event. Require a bond to secure the site and losses that might occur if the city pulls out but allow a state/city to host without going broke. Moving the site will also bring in new participants that would not travel across the country to bowl. Once they bowl they might be interested in returning? If I were the bowling Czar and had to make a decision I would require a rotating site to be in one region of the US each year. Divide the states into 6 or 8 regions and require they move through each region before returning to the first? It’s a thought, it would require additional work but these people are making salaries off of our yearly fees and we are getting less back each year in awards and recognitions. Sorry about the long rant but this is a complicated subject with no cut and dried answer. Need people who are willing to think outside the box for a change.
Post by: ksucat on March 21, 2012, 02:50:23 PM
Probably one of my favorite posts I've seen in a while. Many just want to see this be the best tournament it can be. Total teams are very high, we just want to see it as big as possible while still being great. I just don't know how big it can be.
I still contend that when you have a tournament with a long history, you should keep the intent of the tournament the same. Some changes to improve or just keep up with the times are needed, but the longer the history, the slower and less drastic the changes should be.
Improvements I like that I've seen are in no particular order: allowing women, adding a classified division, fresh oil for all team squads and the upcoming fresh for all, brackets and various side pots.
Changes I don't want: handicap added, THS, Reno every year.
Post by: Bill Thomas on March 21, 2012, 02:57:37 PM
Minnesota Don,
USBC does make a profit off of the Open. In fact, it is a "cash cow" that helps fund their operation. I suspect that at least one reason for the frequent returns to Reno is because their "profit" is better there. Even if USBC would somehow be able to move the Open to different places, it can't happen before 2016. By then it may be too late to salvage the trend of declining entries. Apparently the Tri-Properties casinos in Reno are providing USBC some sort of insurance against this decline. Your idea about multiple divisions for "Classified" bowlers would probably work better as a separate tournament.
Jorge300,
I am not advocating handicap nor do I envision using the THS walls that USBC instigated with the 3 unit rule. I simply want to see a separation between the highly skilled teams and the vast majority of teams who have no chance of winning an eagle and in the 75% who won't even cash. It is my, and others, contention that if you don't do something for the vast majority of participants the Open will suffer even more losses in entries to the detriment of USBC and their cash flow and the tournament itself.
Post by: Pinbuster on March 21, 2012, 03:13:36 PM
Don't put in a THS.
Don't put in more divisions. The womens tournament has done that and it has pretty much killed their national tourny.
Don't handicap it.
I believe most of the growth of the tournament has been from the classified division over the last 10 years, open division entries might be down over time. But I don't have any facts for that.
It is why bowling probably will not be back at the Olympics, as longs as the playing field can be manipulated you can control to a degree who can win and who can't.
I don't care that they make money off the tournament, but I do believe it needs to travel around the country more.
Post by: jaydee on March 21, 2012, 04:11:31 PM
I think it would be interesting and could work out to put in an easier shot for the classified division, (if you could make it work logistically). Maybe a 4-5:1 instead of 2-3:1
Keep open division the same tougher shot. Perhaps optionally if you're average is >180, you could still opt for the easier shot in a separate cash fund, essentially making it three classes with three cash funds: Classified on 5:1, Open on 5:1, Open on ~2-3:1 (where the "real" Eagles and awards reside). That would solve some issues but it would introduce more problems. For one, prize money for the 2:1 Open division would go down quite a bit, blue chippers wouldn't be happy about that. Lane assignments would be much more complex and a group bringing 2 teams, one classified, one open wouldn't be able to bowl together.
I'm not really advocating it, just saying it could be an option if enough people really complain about how hard the shot it. I'm personally fine the way it is, only real complaint is the location 4-5 years as been voiced by many others...
The opinion expressed here represents all major bowling ball and equipment manufacturers, not my own.
Post by: Andyman3333 on March 21, 2012, 04:19:41 PM
I'm not privy to the payout ratio and don't have time to check it, but why change anything about the tough conditions when the highest "Low-to-cash" score of any Open Championships was a 596 in singles? 596! It's not 650! 596! Bet you it's lower this year!
And that 596 was the highest ever. This thread, though focused on the majority of the bowling pool, has ignored the fact that the scores to cash are low. Most bowlers aren't looking to win. They are looking to cash or see a new town. Only one person can win in a tournament of 12000 teams, and 60000 individuals. For the majority of us, we're just looking to have a better than average set and break even. Maybe 500 people have a chance at an Eagle. This thread almost has taken the direction of finding a way to make lower average players more competitive with higher averages. Why? The better bowlers will just raise the bar to cash. Now instead of 596, you need 620 or 630. What purpose does that serve? The only person who truly can control your success is you. As Pete Weber most recently put it, Who do you think you are? I am! See the focus on the "I" statement.
Take the time to practice spares and playing different lines on the lane. Not just 3rd arrow. I CAN'T EXPRESS HOW FRUSTRATING IT IS TO WATCH GUYS HOOK IT AT SINGLE PIN SPARES on a Sport shot! Just throw it straight! Invest in a $60 spare ball. Golfers don't use their drivers on the putting green! Learn your equipment and why it reacts certain ways. Learn to read lane transition and how the oil reacts to bowling balls being thrown through it. And then, get better at executing shots. I bowl 1 league on a house shot. Thats the only league I bowl. Before the tournament, I work with a proprietor to have the shot laid out and arrange to have plenty of people on hand during slow business hours to rack up lineage. I get better before the tournament and that has drastically helped my ability to cash in this tournament in every event. I watch the live streams. I read the blogs. I read this forum and go wide eyes when people say the lanes are unplayable, yet the guy leading singles just averaged 261 for 3 games. I throw it straight at every spare but double wood. 8 for 8 cashing so far in two years in this tournament. Trying to make it 12 for 12.
I've hit bad pairs in singles and doubles and still fought through it to cash. Those bad pairs might affect my chances at an eagle, but not cashing. How important is spare shooting again?
You ultimately control your own destiny. We can't always blame someone else or something else for our own struggles. And if someone comes on here and tells me that they can't get 9 guys to break the lane down with them, I'm going to go insane. Again, are you trying to win an Eagle? Or cash? You can cash without the team breaking the lanes down. Done it twice now. Missed the Eagle by roughly 400 pins. We were close. If only we had broken the lane down as a team! <That's sarcasm>
Find the time to practice and study what is working and not working on this pattern. The information is available if you just ask for it!!! I enjoy bowling this tournament. The aura of the event, the walk, the announcements, and the environment is superb.
I'll probably get railed for suggesting these novel concepts. Someone is certainly going to tell me how they did all these things and still bowled like poo. The lanes were unplayable. So it's gotta be someone else's fault. We're just beating a dead horse here.
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
PROFILE
340-370 revs
18 mph
Arsenal: (In the bag) Nexxus F(p+r), Nexus F(p+f), Nexus f(p), C-System Ulti-Max, C-System Versa Max, Massive Damage, Karma Pink/Purple. On the wall, Loaded Revolver, Lethal Revolver, Damage, Slingshot.
340-370 revs
18 mph
Arsenal: (In the bag) Nexxus F(p+r), Nexus F(p+f), Nexus f(p), C-System Ulti-Max, C-System Versa Max, Massive Damage, Karma Pink/Purple. On the wall, Loaded Revolver, Lethal Revolver, Damage, Slingshot.
Post by: Jorge300 on March 21, 2012, 04:43:29 PM
Bill,
Let me address something in your first paragraph, even though it wasn't addressed to me. The fact that the USBC Open makes money, you seem to have an issue with that? The profit is used by the USBC to fund it's operation, instead of raising membership fees, which have people up in arms if they did that. You are correct, Reno does offer something that allows them to maximize their profit. Again, why is this bad, especially in the bad economic environment the word is in? I hear people complaining that the economy is in such bad shape that they can't afford to practice for the Open, they can't afford to travel to Reno, etc. Yet when the USBC does something to help itself through the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression that is seen as a bad thing. Why? Don't get me wrong, I liked traveling around the country, seeing new cities. I would like the tournament to return to that, and maybe 2015 is a start. But I understand the reasoning behind Reno so often and I think others would too if they take the time to think.
Now onto paragraph 2. My first question, and it is one I asked before, is why is this such an issue now? For the past 100 years, there have been 75% of the teams going to this tournament that did not cash. There is a good many of those that had little or no chance of doing so. Yet they continued year after year to support this tournament. The main difference is that normal league shots have gotten easier and now people average 10-20 pins higher then their actual skill level. But instead of accepting that fact, and trying to get better, they complain that the USBC Open shot is too hard, and they quit. As adults, we scold children when they do this....so why are we accommodating these adults when they act this way? No matter how you separate the teams.....the ones at the bottom end of any split will have the same chance of cashing or winning that they have now.....so will they quit then??? As mentioned you wind up with what happened to the Women's Championship, where they kept adding divisions and kept losing bowlers anyway. Why should we relive the past and do something that hasn't worked before? You do know the definition of insanity right??? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Jorge300
Post by: Bill Thomas on March 22, 2012, 04:15:06 PM
Jorge300,
I would love to know how you can read my mind and find that I have issues with anything in my post. What I did was provide some facts in response to a poster who asked questions or said he didn't know certain info.. I have no issue at all with USBC using tournament funds to support their operations although I think they ought to be up front with the entrants that not all of their entry fee goes to the prize fund nor to the tournament expenses.
Post by: Bill Thomas on March 22, 2012, 04:17:59 PM
Jorge300,
As to your comments on the second paragraph, I believe, if you will read it carefully, I answered your questions.
Post by: Jorge300 on March 22, 2012, 04:55:24 PM
Bill,
Your post was written, to my anyway, like you had some issue with it. If I read that wrong, I apologize.
And I have reread your post, and no where do you answer my questions. You just state that you and others believe changes must be made in order to ensure we don't lose more entries. Again I ask why do we need to? Why are these teams quitting now, when for 100 years this tournament has offered the same thing, a shot tougher then the average league shot? If my son told me he wanted to quit something because it was too hard.....I would scold him and tell him that is no attitude to have. You can't just continue to quit things because it is too hard. You need to practice and work at it to get better. Yet when the same is said to bowlers......those saying it are called snobs or elitists. Would you advocate changes to Football or Baseball?? I mean those games are too hard for the average player to compete against the best in the sport.
I know I am the exception to the rule, because I know I am not as good as my THS average shows. I know that is inflated, and know my true talent as a bowler. But what I can't grasp is the childish mentality that is being catered to here. The shot is too hard, so we are going to quit and so we should change the shot, change the game to make those people happy. What happens to the 182 average bowler if you add a 180-200 division....he still doesn't cash 99% of the time. What happens to the 210 average bowler if you do this, where he used to cash some of the time, now he doesn't cash at all. Won't they just quit then??? Along with the 182 average bowler who still isn't cashing even with the new division. So now we lost 2 bowlers instead of 1 by adding in a new division. So by trying to help, we just lost twice as many bowlers. Maybe if instead of trying to make unnecessary changes to the tournament, people work on educating others on the history of the USBC Open, the prestige of the tournament, and the true nature of it, they will understand that they may not bowl well there, will try to get better and will continue to bowl like the majority of us do. It also might be interesting to share with them that the 1:4 cash ratio is one of the best you find in any tournament, most others are 1:6 or even 1:8 so in those cases 83% and 87% of the people/teams don't cash.
Jorge300
Post by: Andyman3333 on March 22, 2012, 09:26:32 PM
LOW TO CASH AS OF MARCH 15.
2618 in team = 524 a man = 174 average per player
1074 in doubles = 537 a man = 179 average per player
551 in singles = 183 average.
Are we blaming the conditions if we can't reach these numbers? Only one of which is over a 180 average and that's in singles. So a 180 average bowler needs to bowl average to cash. But we want to make the conditions easier so the 180 average bowler now has to bowl above and beyond their average to cash, which will only increase the gap between very good and not very good. A good 600 in this tournament will likely secure them their entry fees back. This may be tough, but who can't look at those numbers and at least marginally believe they are attainable. And who can't look at those numbers and think if they got hot at the right time, they might be in for a pretty nice check with a 650-660. Why would those numbers scare anyone away from this tournament? A nice check awaits someone who puts a good 3-game set together. Might even loosen the armswing up.
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
PROFILE
340-370 revs
18 mph
Arsenal: (In the bag) Nexxus F(p+r), Nexus F(p+f), Nexus f(p), C-System Ulti-Max, C-System Versa Max, Massive Damage, Karma Pink/Purple. On the wall, Loaded Revolver, Lethal Revolver, Damage, Slingshot.
340-370 revs
18 mph
Arsenal: (In the bag) Nexxus F(p+r), Nexus F(p+f), Nexus f(p), C-System Ulti-Max, C-System Versa Max, Massive Damage, Karma Pink/Purple. On the wall, Loaded Revolver, Lethal Revolver, Damage, Slingshot.
Post by: Oldschool on March 22, 2012, 11:12:01 PM
2011Reno NV 12,837 teams
2010Reno, NV 14,1892009Las Vegas,NV 17,200
2008Albuquerque, NM 12,615
2007Reno, NV 16,235
2006Corpus Christi, TX 12,606
2005Baton Rouge, LA 13,222
2004Reno, NV 16,585
2003Knoxville, TN 12,203
2002Billings, MT 10,806
2001Reno, NV 16,104
2000Albuquerque, NM 10,688
1999Syracuse, NY 9,912
1998Reno, NV 15,925
1997Huntsville, AL 9,480
1996Salt Lake City, UT 9,764
1995Reno, NV 17,285
1994Mobile, AL 9,285
1993Tulsa, OK 8,518 1992Corpus Christi, TX 8,557
1991Toledo, OH 8,359
1990Reno, NV 9,199
1989Wichita, KS 7,717
1988Jacksonville, FL 7,562
1987Niagara Falls, NY 7,480
1986Las Vegas, NV 10,019
1985Tulsa, OK 7,700
1984Reno, NV 8,380
1983Niagara Falls, NY 7,132
1982Baltimore, MD 6,627
1981Memphis, TN 6,400
1980Louisville, KY 6,269
1979Tampa, FL 6,213
1978St. Louis, MO 6,684
1977Reno, NV 7,203
Post by: Russell on March 23, 2012, 12:24:04 AM
I'm just curious how many bowlers were there in 1980 compared to now?
Hint: About 25% of what we have now. The dip the last couple of years could be attributed as much to location and the economy being in the toilet.
Just to clarify in the mid 80s we were getting 1/2 of the teams and we had at least 3x the sanctioned bowlers? What's the problem?
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: Track_Fanatic on March 23, 2012, 12:54:47 AM
Post by: r534me on March 23, 2012, 03:46:54 AM
Perception becoming reality without supporting documentation?
Good research.
Post by: dmonroe814 on March 23, 2012, 09:10:27 AM
Scores, conditions, it is all relative because we all shoot on the same conditions. Straighter players are not affected as much as big hookers on sport conditions. I out averaged my wife by 30 pins on House conditions. We average within 10 pins of each other on sport conditions. Finding a way to stay in the pocket and making spares are the keys to making money at the nationals. My only pause for the nationals is the location. Not because of Reno, Vegas, BR or any other place. It is travel distance that give me pause. Due to job situations, I am forced to work and live near D.C. Going to Reno or Vegas costs me about $1000 before I step on the lanes. As long as I can afford it, I will continue to go. It is an expensive proposition, but I accept it. Adding $30 to the entry fee makes very little difference to me one way or another, when conidered with the other expenses. My goal each year is to bowl better than the last year. Last year was my highest with an 1814. First time over 200 for the tournament. I came after working very hard on the sport conditions. I go out the first week of April, but will not have the opportunity to practice on any sport conditions. My only saving grace is that I will use the team as practice, because we have the 7:00 am minor squad, so fresh oil again. The sport shot is the sport shot no matter where you go. It is all based on accuracy and shot repetition. That is what you need to practice on if you want to be successfull at the nationals. My Experience.
Old Man Still Learning
300x4 800x3 (High 814x2)
Hi Avg 218 Cur Ave 214
Tweener-Cranker (14Mph 350Revs)
Heavy: Storm VG Nano 4000AB Pol / C300 World Beater Pol
Medium: C300 Outburst Pol / C300 Game Pearl
Light: C300 Scout Reactive / Brunswich Avalanche Pearl
300x4 800x3 (High 814x2)
Hi Avg 218 Cur Ave 214
Tweener-Cranker (14Mph 350Revs)
Heavy: Storm VG Nano 4000AB Pol / C300 World Beater Pol
Medium: C300 Outburst Pol / C300 Game Pearl
Light: C300 Scout Reactive / Brunswich Avalanche Pearl
Post by: TWOHAND834 on March 23, 2012, 10:30:30 AM
Someone earlier mentioned something about why the need for more divisions. I dont think there is a need for more divisions as a plural but think that having one more division is a possibility. Why? Simply because scores today are not the same as they were 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. Scores have risen ALOT. Your elite bowlers 20 years ago on league shots were 220. Now you have guys all over the place that are in the 240s; record being 260+. The sport as a whole has evolved but the Tournament hasnt. I think the Tournament is falling behind. The answer each year cant simply be "Lets flatten the pattern out to bring scores down". There will always be a difference of opinion no matter what happens. IMO.....the only way to bring more interest to the Tournament, is to add a 3rd division simply because your 190 THS bowler has no chance against the guys on a PBA level. Bear in mind that 190 average is on a THS. Know what that most likely equates to at the Tournament? Probably in the neighborhood of 170, on average though I am sure some will average over 200 for the tournament. The average base is much more wide spread now than it was years and years ago. You have enough guys now averaging 210+ that you could create an Elite Division.
As someone mentioned about the Tournament being a cash cow. Well, for alot of guys in the regular division it has become that. A guy like myself that averages 230+ on a THS and averaging 205-210 at the Tournament; I am going out there and making decent money because I know I can average 20 pins below my THS and still be in good shape. I have never shot anything higher than 1960ish AE and yet have made as much as $4,000. Lets do some math:
230 x 9 = 2070 (THS average)
210 x 9 = 1890 (roughly my USBC Tournament average)
190 x 9 = 1710 (lower end to qualify for Regular Division based on THS average)
There is a pretty significant gap there. For 9 games on a THS, there is a 360 pin gap. So the guy averaging 190 on a THS can shoot his average and hardly make a dime while feeling like he accomplished something by averaging that on a tougher condition whereas the 230 guy can shoot almost as much as 200 UNDER his THS average on the same pattern and make a couple thousand if the timing is right? Bear in mind this is hypothetical. Not all 190 bowlers are going to average 190 out there and not all 230 bowlers are going to average 210+ That is why I think there is a need for another division. We could have a 179 and below as Classified, 180-210 as Regular, and 211 and above as Elite. I believe by doing that, you increase the mentality of bowlers being able to walk away making some money because they are bowling against others of their own skill levels. This is one reason why league bowling is declining. You have those averaging 190 that know they cant compete with the 230s out there so they want more handicap. Then the 230s are mad because they worked hard for that 230 and dont think they should have to spot that many sticks to a person capable of popping out a 250 anytime. Scratch leagues are dying out. Then the next issue is the economy; getting it back on track so more people can afford to make it out there to participate. My fear for the Tournament is that it will become like leagues; slowly dying out.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: Pinbuster on March 23, 2012, 10:34:33 AM
I still think the Classified division is most of the growth.
Before 1999 all you could do was enter as a Booster team if your average was low enough and you had to bowl in the open doubles and singles.
So most of the team totals for years prior to 1999 were for open division teams.
I believe there are 4000+ booster teams now.
Post by: Bill Thomas on March 23, 2012, 02:55:23 PM
When talking about the USBC Open, I think the only relevant averages are those from the USBC Open tournament. Therefore, I believe any division or divisions should be based only on USBC Open averages. To do anything else is like mixing apples and oranges and expecting lemonade.
Post by: ccrider on March 23, 2012, 04:23:22 PM
Anyone going to this tournament and expecting an easy or THS shot can not read. They need to stay at home or go and bowl one of the hundreds of THS tournaments available around the U.S. on any given weekend.
Otherwise, there is plenty to be gained by the bowler that is willing and able to work on his game and make the sacrafice necessary to win at the open. Nobody said it has to be easy, and even if it was, those that prepared the most and bowled the best would, and should, still be on top.
Nothing needs to be changed about the divisions or the shot. The better bowlers end up on top, the mediocre in the middle, and those of us who can't bowl end up right where we are suppose to be, the bottom. Now, do I want a special class so that I can be at the top of the nonbowlers? Wow, what an accomplishment.
Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.
Most things we like, we don't need. Most things we need, we don't like. Don't confuse your likes with your needs.
Post by: Russell on March 23, 2012, 04:26:47 PM
You do realize the pattern is s 2.2:1 ratio....a flat pattern would be much tougher. This pattern is a little tougher than a tour pattern and about 5x easier than the US Open.
If you're wishing a 50ft flat pattern you know absolutely nothing about lane conditions. Flipping it to the 7 board and watching it bounce back is not bowling.
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: tburky on March 23, 2012, 06:49:15 PM
The pattern males you think it is a reverse block when you don't play the pattern properly. I can assure you they are not going to make the pattern easier since you threatened that you are not ever going to bowl the nationals.
Edited by tburky on 3/23/2012 at 4:51 PM
Post by: bhsbigcountry on March 23, 2012, 07:39:10 PM
I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of lane conditions, lane play and ball selection/surface prep and my question is show me the proof where the outside is oiled more than middle of the lane?
By the looks of the tapes from the first 7 and 15 feet it seems to me there is still more oil in the middle. Even at 37 feet of the 39 foot pattern there is still a slight difference in the amount of oil from out to in. But then again I may be wrong??
Shawn Naumann
Edited by bhsbigcountry on 3/23/2012 at 5:41 PM
Post by: Greazygeo on March 23, 2012, 08:22:26 PM
I just bowled Mon/Tue 19th and 20th. Its not a reverse block shot at all. There is oil on the outside of the lane where on a THS there isn't. It was quite difficult, but there was a shot when you hit it. Instead of 15 boards of area you had 1.
Post by: r534me on March 24, 2012, 02:03:55 AM
Keep in mind there is a track area that will dictate how the ball will roll and it's not likely to be outside. Plus, other bowlers are pulling oil off the lanes with their balls creating a hook spot.
edit: #Tog - have you noticed how they played the U.S. Open? Almost no one plays the outside on it because they are aiming at the 3 pin and trying not to go away the pocket.
Edited by r534me on 3/28/2012 at 9:13 AM
Post by: bass on March 24, 2012, 10:03:34 AM
I also bowled on the 19th and 20th.
The shot might "feel" like a reverse block but it isn't.
To have success at this tournament;
1) you need to know your equipment.
2) know your teammates games and equipment.
3) be flexible in where you can/want to play on the lanes.
4) maximize every break you get.
5) don't miss spares.
This will increase your all events score by 75-100 pins.
People also have to remember that more than likely you will be out of your normal routine i.e. sleep patterns, eating habits along with drinking habits.
Trying the local fare is fun but do it in moderation.
Myself I am allergic to shellfish so while I would love to experiment with the local foods I do not want a visit the local hospital to be apart of my trip.
A "calmer" hand and keeping the game simple should increase your scores also.
Almost all things are better when they come from Texas.Except maybe the USBC. LOL
Post by: strikeking on March 24, 2012, 02:05:21 PM
Some "bowlers" are just waking up to the fact that real bowling is not just standing left and flinging it right. In my humble opinion, THS has ruined the sport. As has the "hook in the box" balls.
Strikeking
Post by: shipper50 on March 26, 2012, 10:09:24 AM
I couldnt agree more with the words below.
Shipper
Post by: mainzer on March 27, 2012, 07:21:20 PM
I agree with the first part of that statment I do not agree with the second half, Hook in a box means nothing if it is not used on the proper conditions, drilled properly, released properly etc. In that sense yellow dots were far simpilar to use than the modern gear. For older bowlers the use of the newer equipment is beyond their reach they don't even understand how much the sport has changed with that type of equipment.
To Tog81 or whatever the screen name is. Quit whining and just bowl. Be a man learn to change your game to meet the pattern because that is what the sport is about adjusting. Probably the same guy that refuses to golf at a golf course that has a water hazard.
MainzerPower
Post by: Russell on March 28, 2012, 10:22:10 AM
lol...oh the irony of your statement....(reverse block)
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: Good Times Good Times on March 28, 2012, 10:53:20 AM
Thats exactly what I was thinking! LOL
GetOffMe10Pin
"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right"
- Henry Ford
- Henry Ford
Post by: bowlingnut07 on March 28, 2012, 11:58:13 AM
i just got back myself and had a blast.
didnt bowl well and i figured i wouldnt . this shot is very difficult and gives a person virtually
no room to miss. miss left of your mark and ur gonna miss the headpin BIG time.
miss right and ball dont move. That was in both squads. singles and doubles we bowled.
3rd shift and the heads were totally burned up even urathane and plastic hooked alot.
i shot 563 in team with 250.00 in brackets got 515.00 back , there just wasnt any big scores in that squad.
never shot a 200 game either and im a 230 avg bowler at home. and this isnt a complaint
but the statement about league bowlers being shut out is pretty accurate. i loved the challenge
and will go back next year. the reality is alot will not go back. one guy in the team squad before us threw his shoes off in game 2 and threw his balls in the trash and walked out screaming THIS IS BS!! lol was crazy
Post by: on March 28, 2012, 12:45:54 PM
Thanks for the report, bowlingnut. I have practiced twice on the pattern and it's demanding, but not impossible. I go in 3 weeks and plan on it being difficult, but like you, I love the challenge of tough conditions. Trying to keep the adrenaline in check is always tough at Nationals so I tend to increase the revs and get plenty of splits as a result.
I find it hilarious that the bowler tossed his stuff in the trash and left. He may regret it when he returns home to league play and needs to purchase new shoes, etc.
Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Allstar Lanes
Brunswick Regional Staff
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Post by: bhsbigcountry on March 28, 2012, 05:38:03 PM
You got it right by saying its demanding but not impossible. They are tougher than last year but are not impossible. If they were impossible why have a few guys out there (including a good friend of mine Matthew Tuckfield) shot 300? Why is 785 Leading singles, 1429 leading doubles, and 3401 leading team? I know all about opening up a pattern with team and what not but still if they were impossible why these scores?
Its the same as I said before. Its harder than the house china that so many out there have grown used to. So when House shot Harry goes and bowls where he/she doesnt have free hook to the right and hold in its an automatic response that they are "impossible" and there is no area to miss and all those same excuses. It just kills me reading over and over how impossible they are this and hard they are that. They should be hard and if you dont want to come back and bowl because your ego was bruised becuase you didnt average 220+ then why are you bowling in the first place? If you dont practice and want to learn how to bowl on any condition why should the rest of use that do spend time learning the game bow down to you to make you feel good??
Shawn Naumann
Post by: mainzer on March 28, 2012, 07:27:26 PM
Did he seriously erase his posts??
MainzerPower
Post by: ccrider on March 28, 2012, 07:52:42 PM
Yep. Maybe the USBC could come up with a button like this for the whiners that thought they could bowl who went to Louisiana and were forced to see the harsh reality that they are "housebowler harry." Push a button, erase your score and nobody knows just how bad you really are.
Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.
Most things we like, we don't need. Most things we need, we don't like. Don't confuse your likes with your needs.
Post by: Impending Doom on March 28, 2012, 08:32:57 PM
What did you expect to shoot?
*Inventor of the FIBJAM*
The sky is falling
The end is near
The final warning
The sun disappears.
My arsenal
Post by: Andyman3333 on March 28, 2012, 09:09:37 PM
A reverse block has more oil on the outside of the lane than the inside of the lane. This pattern is 2.2 to 1. And flat in the middle. There is less oil outside than there is inside by a 2.2 to 1 ratio. Most house shots are anywhere from 5-1 (USBC White) to 8-1 (USBC Red) to 10-1 (Generic house shot).
The volume is also lower on this pattern than what you normally see on a house shot.
Needless to say, it's not a reverse block, but Bill Hall (Who is giving lessons down there and is pretty accomplished) says that if you don't control your launch angles and play more up the boards, this pattern will feel like a reverse block. But it's not.
I just can't feel sorry for people who don't do their research. There is a lot of valuable information available out there on how to play this pattern. How to attack it. What kind of balls to use. Only a small minority of players will actually take advantage of that. On a side note, two 300 games were shot today on that dumb ass shot. Must be lucky.
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
PROFILE
340-370 revs
18 mph
Arsenal: (In the bag) Nexxus F(p+r), Nexus F(p+f), Nexus f(p), C-System Ulti-Max, C-System Versa Max, Massive Damage, Karma Pink/Purple. On the wall, Loaded Revolver, Lethal Revolver, Damage, Slingshot.
340-370 revs
18 mph
Arsenal: (In the bag) Nexxus F(p+r), Nexus F(p+f), Nexus f(p), C-System Ulti-Max, C-System Versa Max, Massive Damage, Karma Pink/Purple. On the wall, Loaded Revolver, Lethal Revolver, Damage, Slingshot.
Edited by Andyman3333 on 3/28/2012 at 7:11 PM
Post by: mainzer on March 28, 2012, 10:26:12 PM
So you are right and everyone else is wrong?
The whole point of the tourney is to see who the best is on a demanding pattern
not spray and pray to see who carries better. This may hurt your feelings but it
is true.
And do scores matter? They are only numbers who cares if you bowl on a
THS and average 235 to carry the league high average or bowl on a demanding
pattern average 200 and still be high average. You are the winner either way.
MainzerPower
Post by: JessN16 on March 28, 2012, 11:48:18 PM
Just to put a capper on the reverse-block thing so we can all move on:
The lane graph shows a pattern with more oil in the middle than the outside. Therefore, it is not a reverse block.
Anyone saying it is a reverse block either (a) does not know how to read a lane graph, or (b) thinks the USBC is lying, putting down one shot while graphing another.
So we either have a competency issue here, or a conspiracy theory.
What I find to be far more likely is that it's just a tough-a** pattern unfamiliar to those who are complaining about it.
Jess
Post by: TWOHAND834 on March 29, 2012, 09:38:55 AM
Why are there scores being shot? It is all about timing and who is in front of you. The 3400 is way bigger than the 300 and 785. The 3400 was on the fresh condition. The doubles score and singles score more than likely came after another squad had already bowled on them and probably burned a little wall to bank the ball off of. I am sure in the minors, with the exception of the 7:00 squad since they get the fresh condition, there is more miss room and still able to hit the pocket. In minors it is all about who is in front of you. This year especially, it seems like if you get on a pair for minors where the people in front of you are either not throwing plastic all over the place or throwing some sandblasted stuff playing gutter to gutter, then there may be an opportunity to post a set worth of getting some money back. BTW....the ANY honor score is still a huge accomplishment. Not trying to downplay the 300s being shot. Just think it is more impressive to post a 3400 on the fresh on that condition.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: on March 29, 2012, 11:01:29 AM
TWOHAND834,
High scores this year are impressive to me, too. Like I said before, not much miss room on the fresh. I have not tried it long enough to break it down by myself.
Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Allstar Lanes
Brunswick Regional Staff
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Post by: bhsbigcountry on March 29, 2012, 12:19:08 PM
I will 100% agree with you that the 3400 is by far the most impressive score so far even though now i think someone shot 2-300's this year already but thats besides the point. It takes good bowlers and great team work to go +400. Yes they did bowl on a fresh condition but through practice and playing them the correct way they created the most amount of area for them. So even though they started on a fresh pair they ended up creating all the miss room they could. To shoot any of those scores I posted from the 3400 to 300 to 785 takes miss room. I dont care who you are or how good you are you still need some miss room to shoot those scores. Thats the reason why their scores kept going up. I wish I was the one bowling s/d after that team. And I also agree with the fact that you are at the mercy of who ever is infront of you. Over the past few years our group has followed both plastic as well as sandblasted sprayers but it is what it is. My main point for showing the scores was to prove that they cant be "impossible" and a "dumb ass" shot that no one can bowl on.
Shawn Naumann
Post by: ACES80 on March 29, 2012, 02:51:32 PM
I am going to natonals for first time, i avg 202 in two leagues on a ths. i am more of a stroker, med speed, med revs. i like to play down and in if possible, but will play inside and swing it a little if need be. reason for first time is, baton rouge is the closest it's been to my location since i retired from the navy and moved back to illinois. i am going down there with the goal of just to have fun, and enjoy the experience, and the atmosphere. however i do want to bowl respectable, not embarass myself, or teammates. i want to keep the ball on the lane, and convert all the spares possible, and keep it out of the gutter,lol. i am going to bring my 2 favorite balls, anarchy, and victory road. really looking forward to this trip, we bowl on the 17th of april team 8:30pm, and 18th s/d 5:30 pm. i have really enjoyed the info on this post, thanks to all of you.
"GO NAVY, BEAT ARMY"
Steven Root
Woodhull, Illinois
Post by: bhsbigcountry on March 29, 2012, 04:45:38 PM
good luck on your trip out there. I hope bowl well, have fun and can win some money.
Shawn Naumann