BallReviews
General Category => USBC Tournament => Topic started by: Olderdude on March 29, 2016, 10:09:44 AM
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So the USBC has gone to this new 3-teir system to both boost entries and supposedly stop sandbaggers and I'm here to tell you it wont work. Her is why:
Why have a guy in my area (Tacoma) who rarely bowls over 21 league games a year and averages anywhere between 173 (50+ games) to 184 (24 games), in fact this individual bowls a league every few years, just enough to have an average. He used to be a 200+ average guy.
Entering this years event his Open average shows as 186 which is a 213 upconverted. Amazingly this year he manages to shoot less than 1000 for doubles and singles to lower his tournament average to 180 which lowers his converted average to 207 so now he gets to bowl in the middle division.
I should also mention this guy won a classified all events Eagle
So for anyone who believes the USBC will catch sandbaggers, I wouldn't hold my breath. Cheating will just be on a different level now.
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So the USBC has gone to this new 3-teir system to both boost entries and supposedly stop sandbaggers and I'm here to tell you it wont work. Her is why:
Why have a guy in my area (Tacoma) who rarely bowls over 21 league games a year and averages anywhere between 173 (50+ games) to 184 (24 games), in fact this individual bowls a league every few years, just enough to have an average. He used to be a 200+ average guy.
Entering this years event his Open average shows as 186 which is a 213 upconverted. Amazingly this year he manages to shoot less than 1000 for doubles and singles to lower his tournament average to 180 which lowers his converted average to 207 so now he gets to bowl in the middle division.
I should also mention this guy won a classified all events Eagle
So for anyone who believes the USBC will catch sandbaggers, I wouldn't hold my breath. Cheating will just be on a different level now.
There will always be those individuals that will spend more time and energy finding ways around the rules than bettering themselves to compete where they truly should be.
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Wow. There will ALWAYS be a very small percentage of individuals who will go to extreme lengths. However, think about this, he completely TANKED this year to just get himself down to the middle division for next year. He spent however much money it cost to go out to the tournament, bowled terribly, all with the express point of lowering himself down to the middle division for next year . . this is the reason these new rules DO work. Guy had to completely waste $1000+ and an entire YEAR just to get down to the MIDDLE division, where he's still going to have to put in a ton of work, and perform at the right time next year, just to possibly place and make a few bucks. ZERO chance he makes enough to cover the loss this year and expenses next year. How would YOU combat sandbagging then? So just because they can't catch every single cheater going to some ridiculously extreme extents, the whole thing is a waste and a wash? But as hard as he's trying to "cheat," you're trying even harder to find something to complain about. Sounds like a bowler to me.
So you REALLY think hundreds of people are going to intentionally go to these extremes just to change divisions for next year? Myself, I'd bowl well this year, make money, and practice harder for next year. Much easier and cheaper than the alternative.
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Wow. There will ALWAYS be a very small percentage of individuals who will go to extreme lengths. However, think about this, he completely TANKED this year to just get himself down to the middle division for next year. He spent however much money it cost to go out to the tournament, bowled terribly, all with the express point of lowering himself down to the middle division for next year . . this is the reason these new rules DO work. Guy had to completely waste $1000+ and an entire YEAR just to get down to the MIDDLE division, where he's still going to have to put in a ton of work, and perform at the right time next year, just to possibly place and make a few bucks. ZERO chance he makes enough to cover the loss this year and expenses next year. How would YOU combat sandbagging then? So just because they can't catch every single cheater going to some ridiculously extreme extents, the whole thing is a waste and a wash? But as hard as he's trying to "cheat," you're trying even harder to find something to complain about. Sounds like a bowler to me.
So you REALLY think hundreds of people are going to intentionally go to these extremes just to change divisions for next year? Myself, I'd bowl well this year, make money, and practice harder for next year. Much easier and cheaper than the alternative.
Are you aware that there are a lot more places to make money by sandbagging than just the USBC Open?
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Entering this years event his Open average shows as 186 which is a 213 upconverted. Amazingly this year he manages to shoot less than 1000 for doubles and singles to lower his tournament average to 180 which lowers his converted average to 207 so now he gets to bowl in the middle division.
I should also mention this guy won a classified all events Eagle
As someone who has never bowled an Open (national, state, area), this reads like complete Greek to me.
I have no point. Sorry. Carry on.
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Yes, which would explain his sandbagging in league. What would explain his sandbagging at the Open? That's the whole point of this post and what the guy was accused of. These rules were only instituted at the Open, for the Open, and the Open is what we are talking about . .
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I guess I was complaining, but really thought I was pointing out holes in the USBCs argument on how this would cut down on sandbaggers.
He tries to bowl a lot of handicapped stuff here locally, sometimes he gets rerated and sometimes he doesn't. It obviously works for him, I just feel for people who are actually trying and get taken advantage of by individuals like this.
I guess this is why bowling isn't a sport
Semi-Proshop #1 Assistant Manager
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Yes, which would explain his sandbagging in league. What would explain his sandbagging at the Open? That's the whole point of this post and what the guy was accused of. These rules were only instituted at the Open, for the Open, and the Open is what we are talking about . .
Not if his local tournaments use the higher of his listed averages on bowl.com, including his tournament average. We have several in this area that does exactly that.
And yes, we are talking about the Open. But the extent of why these idiot do this crap goes way beyond that one tournament.
BUT, since we ARE talking about he Open, I would almost guarantee you that there will be a large group from my area that are planning on Vegas, THIS year.
Being in No. Cal. the cost will be nowhere near $1000 for their trip. $180-$200 for entry, Split the $50 for gas to Reno and back, and split a room at the Sands for one night and the entire cost for this year will be well under $300.
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Yes, which would explain his sandbagging in league. What would explain his sandbagging at the Open? That's the whole point of this post and what the guy was accused of. These rules were only instituted at the Open, for the Open, and the Open is what we are talking about . .
Not if his local tournaments use the higher of his listed averages on bowl.com, including his tournament average. We have several in this area that does exactly that.
And yes, we are talking about the Open. But the extent of why these idiot do this crap goes way beyond that one tournament.
BUT, since we ARE talking about he Open, I would almost guarantee you that there will be a large group from my area that are planning on Vegas, THIS year.
Being in No. Cal. the cost will be nowhere near $1000 for their trip. $180-$200 for entry, Split the $50 for gas to Reno and back, and split a room at the Sands for one night and the entire cost for this year will be well under $300.
Your local uses the USBC Open average? I was wondering if someone would, problem in this case is he wont have 27 games in until after Vegas so he will be allowed to bowl Classified. Oh well, what do I expect for $27 dues.
Semi-Proshop #1 Assistant Manager
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Yes, which would explain his sandbagging in league. What would explain his sandbagging at the Open? That's the whole point of this post and what the guy was accused of. These rules were only instituted at the Open, for the Open, and the Open is what we are talking about . .
Not if his local tournaments use the higher of his listed averages on bowl.com, including his tournament average. We have several in this area that does exactly that.
And yes, we are talking about the Open. But the extent of why these idiot do this crap goes way beyond that one tournament.
BUT, since we ARE talking about he Open, I would almost guarantee you that there will be a large group from my area that are planning on Vegas, THIS year.
Being in No. Cal. the cost will be nowhere near $1000 for their trip. $180-$200 for entry, Split the $50 for gas to Reno and back, and split a room at the Sands for one night and the entire cost for this year will be well under $300.
Your local uses the USBC Open average? I was wondering if someone would, problem in this case is he wont have 27 games in until after Vegas so he will be allowed to bowl Classified. Oh well, what do I expect for $27 dues.
Semi-Proshop #1 Assistant Manager
A lot our local tournaments will use the highest average listed on Bowl.com that has 21 or more games. If his tournament average is the highest, that's the one used.
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I thought it said local tournaments could use them, in fact I think it might have said we (USBC) hope they sue them but it doesn't say they have to use them.
Actually it doesn't matter to me, I don't bowl handicapped events out of principle.
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I thought it said local tournaments could use them, in fact I think it might have said we (USBC) hope they sue them but it doesn't say they have to use them.
Actually it doesn't matter to me, I don't bowl handicapped events out of principle.
Yea, generally the same for me. Although I will bowl some of them if they have scratch brackets.
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So then what do they do? Eliminating sandbagging is impossible. In any sport where there are divisions or handicap, there will be cheating. Obvious fix is one division, no handicap. Obvious result, no participants. I don't know how you're poking holes in it because this WILL cut down on sandbaggers. Eliminate them, no, but cut down, yes.
I switched hands. Been working hard. Will bowl in upper division next year no matter how it goes this year. Will work harder next year to be able to compete. Result? Don't have to worry about sandbaggers in the upper division. Also don't have to worry about sandbaggers when you're a scratch bowler bowling scratch tournaments/leagues.
I guess I was complaining, but really thought I was pointing out holes in the USBCs argument on how this would cut down on sandbaggers.
He tries to bowl a lot of handicapped stuff here locally, sometimes he gets rerated and sometimes he doesn't. It obviously works for him, I just feel for people who are actually trying and get taken advantage of by individuals like this.
I guess this is why bowling isn't a sport
Semi-Proshop #1 Assistant Manager
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$27 in dues?! And remember, USBC only gets $10 of that. So basically your local association feels it needs nearly twice as much to operate as USBC does . . and people complain that USBC does nothing . . it's hard to do anything on less than a dollar per month per bowler.
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$27 in dues?! And remember, USBC only gets $10 of that. So basically your local association feels it needs nearly twice as much to operate as USBC does . . and people complain that USBC does nothing . . it's hard to do anything on less than a dollar per month per bowler.
I almost responded as such the the $27 statement. And if I remember correctly, local associations cannot charge more than the national level ($10) and state dues are limited to $1. So I am not sure how $27 is collected, but I have been wrong before.
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In my opinion, here's a simple way to significantly limit sandbagging for tournaments.
Take the highest book average for the last 3 years or the person's tournament average for that tournament if they have bowled 2 or more years.
It would take someone 3 years of bagging to get a low average, however, if they do really well "magically" at your tournament, you only get away with it for a short period before your average from that tournament becomes the entering average.
Will it eliminate all sandbagging? No. But it stops most.
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You basically described the rule they just implemented . .
In my opinion, here's a simple way to significantly limit sandbagging for tournaments.
Take the highest book average for the last 3 years or the person's tournament average for that tournament if they have bowled 2 or more years.
It would take someone 3 years of bagging to get a low average, however, if they do really well "magically" at your tournament, you only get away with it for a short period before your average from that tournament becomes the entering average.
Will it eliminate all sandbagging? No. But it stops most.
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Those who want to cheat will find a way. Forever.
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I was suggesting that "ALL" tournaments use it, not just the open. I know that the FT Worth TX USBC (NCTUSBC) has started tracking averages in their tournaments and if your tournament average is higher than your book, you bowl off your tournament average. So baggers got 1 year and then they are done unless they want to waste money and bowl bad in the tournament.
And you can even go back more than 3 years depending on how strict you want to be.
One tournament I know of uses a 5 year rolling average for its tournament average. And if that tournament average is 1 pin higher than book, you use the tournament average.
In either case, a bagger who has never bowled the tournament gets one shot at it on his low average. After that, sorry, he/she is on tournament average.