BallReviews
General Category => USBC Tournament => Topic started by: Strapper_Squared on May 02, 2018, 02:19:30 PM
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Browsing through my USBC online profile and noticed the Open Championships tab. It lists your scratch average for the last 27 games at the Open tournament.
My question is why is this average not used to categorize at the tournament?
I bowl league on a stupid easy house shot where anywhere right of the 3rd arrow finds the pocket. It may not carry, but it makes it there. I then travel to the Open Championships and bowl on a condition where I need tohave the right equipment with the right surface, be able to very precisely repeat shots, and shoot spare that quite honestly I rarely see otherwise. Im just not good enough (or practiced enough) to do this. My average delta between league and the OC tournament is massive.
Seems like your open average (or even your OC sport adjusted - which appears to be OC average plus about 30 pins), would be a better reflection of a bowlers true potential on the OC conditions in that environment.
Under the current rules, I have zero percent chance of competing. I fall into the "participant" category.
S^2
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It will be for 2019. It will be the higher of the averages, after applying the sport adjustment for the Open.
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So in my example (hypothetically), a bowler has an easy league shot and averages 220. Goes to the OC and is the first time in the season of seeing a flat shot and consequently hits the pocket 5 of the 10 frames (and carries three of these). The other five frames are washouts, buckets, or 2,8,X combinations. I miss one 10 pin on a pocket shot and convert 2 of the 5 other frames. Depend on how/where this occurs, the bowler has just shot 160 to 180. The team you are pair up with has a bowler starting at 4th arrow, two throwing down the middle and two playing outside. The shot doesn't break down and soften up, but rather gets more challenging. The bowler would be lucky to shoot two more 180 games.
I
Now a shooting a 510 series looks pretty favorable - unfortunately their inflated league average puts them in the same classification (and brackets) with top amateurs, regional, and PBA pros who frequently bowl on these conditions and legitimately can shoot 700s.
Taking the higher of the two makes no sense to me. Are they that worried about someone other than the pros bowling to their true average?
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Honestly, I think they want the maximum number of us fish in the pond so the pros are able to make money.
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Honestly, I think they want the maximum number of us fish in the pond so the pros are able to make money.
Bingo. If you aren't taking 10 bowlers with a game plan you've practiced to nationals you are the donator they are looking for.
I know some young bowlers (men and women) with minimal college bowling experience that aren't averaging over 205 on house conditions in most cases that if they ever go bowl will be off of 220 as professionals till they are 60.
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And this is why I should bag.
KIDDING!
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Open Championships should be once you establish 21 gms at the tourney, being a sport shot by itself, should be your tourney avg from then on. Not your THS league avg since the conditions are different. Hence the reason i will never participate in that tourney again. Im not a competitive bowler anymore, at least not in the 'sport' sense. I do like to compete and can throw 780s on THS every once in a while but NO, i cant shoot 600s consistently at USBCs cause i dont bowl sport shots and dont plan on bowling on any sport shot leagues. I bowl for fun now and possibly may be done for a while focusing on other things. But USBC just shoots themselves in the leg everytime they try and fix something and go the complete opposite of what the logically should.
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Agreed. Was wondering why they would take your 27 games OC average and then convert it to a sport average - when it was clearly established on a sport shot...
Are they overthinking this?
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Something to note is a lot of people bowling the OC for the first time in 2019 will most likely be f*cked.
The top division, Regular, starts at 176 Sport Average. Conversion table has that as a 204 house average. I 100% guarantee that if you are averaging less than 215 on a house shot, you don't have a chance of placing well in that division.
In my opinion, that division cut line is 10 pins too low.
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Agreed. Was wondering why they would take your 27 games OC average and then convert it to a sport average - when it was clearly established on a sport shot...
Are they overthinking this?
That's not what they are doing though. They are treating your OC Average as a sport shot and converting(or reverting if you will) back to a non-sport/challenge shot average.
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Something to note is a lot of people bowling the OC for the first time in 2019 will most likely be f*cked.
The top division, Regular, starts at 176 Sport Average. Conversion table has that as a 204 house average. I 100% guarantee that if you are averaging less than 215 on a house shot, you don't have a chance of placing well in that division.
In my opinion, that division cut line is 10 pins too low.
Yea, I have an issue with that one as well. The cut for the top division is supposed to be 210, but the OC average conversion makes it 204 instead.
USBC either has f'ing idiots working there, or they are intentionally trying to increase the size of the top division(Which I'm inclined to believe).
So they should explain which one they want to be know as, idiots or corrupt assholes. ;D
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Something to note is a lot of people bowling the OC for the first time in 2019 will most likely be f*cked.
The top division, Regular, starts at 176 Sport Average. Conversion table has that as a 204 house average. I 100% guarantee that if you are averaging less than 215 on a house shot, you don't have a chance of placing well in that division.
In my opinion, that division cut line is 10 pins too low.
Yea, I have an issue with that one as well. The cut for the top division is supposed to be 210, but the OC average conversion makes it 204 instead.
USBC either has f'ing idiots working there, or they are intentionally trying to increase the size of the top division(Which I'm inclined to believe).
So they should explain which one they want to be know as, idiots or corrupt assholes. ;D
Right haha - they're making compelling arguments for both idiots and/or corrupt assholes.
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So they should explain which one they want to be know as, idiots or corrupt assholes. ;D
Does make one wonder what the lesser of two evils there is...... :-\
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Agreed. Was wondering why they would take your 27 games OC average and then convert it to a sport average - when it was clearly established on a sport shot...
Are they overthinking this?
That's not what they are doing though. They are treating your OC Average as a sport shot and converting(or reverting if you will) back to a non-sport/challenge shot average.
The way I read the FAQ and other information about the 2019 Nationals is if you have 27 games bowled at Nationals that is the average you use (no conversions). If you don't have the 27 games or a sport shot average then you go by your high book average which is then converted to a sport average.
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+1. It's confusing at best, but that's also the way I read it....
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Agreed. Was wondering why they would take your 27 games OC average and then convert it to a sport average - when it was clearly established on a sport shot...
Are they overthinking this?
That's not what they are doing though. They are treating your OC Average as a sport shot and converting(or reverting if you will) back to a non-sport/challenge shot average.
The way I read the FAQ and other information about the 2019 Nationals is if you have 27 games bowled at Nationals that is the average you use (no conversions). If you don't have the 27 games or a sport shot average then you go by your high book average which is then converted to a sport average.
I think I worded that wrong. Everything is being converted to a Sport shot average. Which makes 204 average converts to a 176 Sport average, lower than the 210 which would covert to a 181.
USBC wants more chum in the waters for their precious top level bowlers. I know they had to take a hit in bracket winnings last year.
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I believe the intent of the usbc is two fold. One is to try and make the entering average as fair as possible, and by using the last three years tournament average I think is as fair as you can get.
I may be wrong, but I think the other averages, even if higher only take place if you don’t have a tournament average.
Now the other intent of trying for a division split of roughly 20 percent classified, 40 percent standard, and 40 percent regular is a little more difficult to implement.
They can spin the stats anyway they want. But like the other poster said, the intent was the same in 2017, and it didn’t work. I think less than 10 percent of the teams were classified.
I couldn’t find a link to the 2017 estimated prize fund which would show how many bowlers were in each division.
But I did notice that the adjusted the sport shot conversion chart which forced more “standard†bowlers to regular status and 2019 will be more of the same.
I do know that every captain of house hacks adjusted the line ups to keep as many teams in standard and classified as possible, spreading the regular and standard bowlers as necessary to keep within the cap.
I totally agree, if you can’t average 215 on a house shot you have no chance in the regular division. Our group has bowlers that were over 220 for years that barely got more than meal money back in the old days when regular was 181plus on a house shot.
They get wiped out in today’s game yet they are still 220.
My opinion is they are adjusting the individual averages so it will be so difficult to stay standard or classified. They will force 40 percent of the teams into regular, protecting the prize fund for the elite bowlers.
If you really wanted to be a battle of peers. Maybe 170 and under. 171 to 190, 191 to 215, and 216 plus.
Course that dilutes the prize fund for the top level even more but, that wasn’t the intention.
Wonder how much bitching was done by the top bowlers that were used to cleaning up in brackets only to find the competition was fewer and tougher.
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I may be wrong, but I think the other averages, even if higher only take place if you don’t have a tournament average.
You're not wrong. That is what the Nationals documentation says.
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I must have mis-read. Thought it was the higher of your adjusted open or league average? Or is this the new change in 2019?
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OC 27 games comes first. Rules clearly say if you have it, you use it....... And they are converting down to sport, not up as previously.....
1. AVERAGE REQUIREMENTS FOR 2019 OPEN CHAMPIONSHIPS
The average to be used will be determined in the following order:
A. Open Championships tournament average, based on most recent 27 games bowled at
the tournament since 2010. (Championships Average).
B. Bowlers without a qualifying Championships Average will enter with the highest
average from the following:
1) Highest USBC-certified league average (winter, summer or composite*),
based on 21 or more games from:
a) 2017/2018 season or
b) 2016/2017 season or
c) 2015/2016 season
Averages NOT established on a Sport condition will be converted downward using the
appropriate Sport or Challenge conversion chart.
C. Bowlers who do not meet any of the average requirements in item A or B, will enter
with the highest of the following:
1) Current certified average at the time of bowling of 21 or more games, converted
downward using the appropriate Sport or Challenge conversion chart (if not already Sport).
2) Current composite average of 21 or more games in all current USBC leagues,
converted downward using the appropriate Sport or Challenge conversion chart (if not
already Sport).
League standings sheets or a letter of verification from association secretary must be
presented upon check-in.
D. If, at the time of bowling an entrant has a current average for 21 or more games,
converted to Sport, that is 10 or more pins higher than the average determined in item B,
the current Sport-converted average must be used, if applicable.
E. If, during the 12-month period immediately preceding the time and date of bowling at
the 2019 Open Championships, the bowler’s accumulated average for all, but not less than
21 tournament games, exceeds the average determined in items B or C by 15 or more pins,
the accumulated average, Sport-converted, must be reported and used for
classification purposes.
F. Bowlers who do not meet any of the average requirements stated in items A, B or C will
be entered with a 220 Sport average.
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So heres my profile and you can let me know what i bowl off of, 185avg - 27gm - 214 sport converted. What you are saying now is that i will be bowling off the 185 starting next year? So ill be at the lower end of the top division against all the top level professionals and amateurs bowling for a living. Thanks but no thanks.
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Exactly,
Although you are not as bad as all though 176 bowlers that are being bumped up to join the slaughter.
As a rule, not a lot of standard brackets per squad, but after time I think it would grow, since you would figure out you are against peers.
But if you think I’m going to throw away money against the pros just cause I’ve been bumped up to the bottom of the food chain, forget it.
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So heres my profile and you can let me know what i bowl off of, 185avg - 27gm - 214 sport converted. What you are saying now is that i will be bowling off the 185 starting next year? So ill be at the lower end of the top division against all the top level professionals and amateurs bowling for a living. Thanks but no thanks.
Yep, you will be in the regular division against the cream of the crop of the bowling world.
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But if you think I’m going to throw away money against the pros just cause I’ve been bumped up to the bottom of the food chain, forget it.
Completely agree. USBC was booking me at 225, but the 27 game at Nationals has me averaging 175. I usually get into brackets for one squad and it's always for a very small amount.
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In my opinion, instead of 20% Classified, 40% Standard, 40% Regular, the mix should be;
30% Classified, 60% Standard, 10% Regular. Like the population in most handicap leagues(at least in my experience).
Let the Professionals and the Professional Level Amateurs battle with each other for prize and brackets rather than pillage the rest of us.
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In my opinion, instead of 20% Classified, 40% Standard, 40% Regular, the mix should be;
30% Classified, 60% Standard, 10% Regular. Like the population in most handicap leagues(at least in my experience).
Let the Professionals and the Professional Level Amateurs battle with each other for prize and brackets rather than pillage the rest of us.
+1
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+infinity
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Alright USBC. You claim to solicit input from the bowling community. Here's a strong recommendation on how to improve the OC from a representative majority of typical league bowlers...
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I really wish they would go back to 2 divisions and maybe raise classified to 190.
What is purpose of the tournament?
It was originally to crown a national scratch champion The booster teams were added so the locals low average teams could bowl and in their own division but in doubles and singles they were in with the big boys.
Later as the tournament became more about making money they opened the classified division. I never liked that the awarded eagles to the classified division.
The tournament shouldn't be about bowlers making having a chance to make money. It should be about the title
If you are going to have multiple divisions then once a tournament average is established I don't have a problem using that average. I do think maybe it should be a 27 game minimum with say a 45 game maximum so that having one decent year (say 1825) doesn't put you in the top bracket for the next 3 or 4 tournaments.
That said I have never had a chance at an eagle and 35 years later I know I don't now.
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That’s a great idea. Did you see the last couple of postings on the Facebook site? A couple of standard bowlers shot low 1800’s, which no one is going to say is impossible considering you are 209.
But those guys are gonna be in the regular division for the next three years cause that 1800 inflates their ave. Having a so many game max ave doesn’t penalize them from having one moment of glory. Now if they have two in five years, sure bump them up.
I agree, having 30,60,10 distribution is more indicative of what a usbc league truly is, but it’s never gonna fly for political reasons when the winner of standard, and I wouldn’t have a problem if he or she didn’t receive and Eagle, gets a check for $5000, but the best bowler and eagle winner only gets $2000 because of different prize funds.
You could do maybe 30, 25,25, 20. Where the bulk of the house hacks battle it out in their respective divisions. Then the top 20 percent battle it out for the prestigious eagle.
I have no doubt only the top 10 if not 5 percent of bowlers have any realistic chance of doing well in that division, but usually the 11-20 percent, while very good bowlers, also have egos big enough to think they can do well. Good for them, with them in the mix it balances out the prize fund enough, you know the usbc will top weight the prizes so that the regular champ gets just as much, if not more than the other division winners. They already stated that for 2017.
And they already have the data. Every tournament you can look up your participation history and get your lifetime average.
By the time this place, you could even state minimum 27 game ave from 2013 onwards. ( next year they are using from 2010). I’m suggesting 2013 cause it was the first year I think they had fresh oil for all squads?
Wouldn’t take much work to run a program that breaks out divisions by those parameters and calculate tournament ave with rolling 45 game ave.
While Riggs et al stated that they and others like them would bowl in a parking lot for free just for a chance to win a an eagle. The truth is the usbc needs as much participation as possible for a revenue source.
You have to create an atmosphere so everyone thinks they have a chance to get something out of the tournament. It’s no longer an excuse to consider the tournament a pseudo vacation since the site is the same rotation, with a west coast bias.
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Nothing really new here. Bowled my first nationals in 1975. Bowled my 28th in Vegas last year. 90%of participants have always been donators and they have always known it. They bowled because it was a chance to participate in something special, and there was always a slim chance they might grab a check.
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It's a losing battle ....
The OC is tough and it should be .... but the VAST majority of bowlers never see anything other than soft house conditions. It's a donation fest for the majority of participants and will never change unless the OC conditions get softer or league shots get harder. PERIOD.
The USBC sanctions leagues (which means they take your money and do nothing except send out tin 300 rings), then holds a national tournament that is supposed to cater to those league bowlers ...... but it doesn't at all. Maybe the new weight hole rule will fix it all :o
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It's a donation fest for the majority of participants and will never change unless the OC conditions get softer or league shots get harder. PERIOD.
Even then, the best will still win. They just will.
The USBC sanctions leagues (which means they take your money and do nothing except send out tin 300 rings)
Bonding of league funds....
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Just got back from the OC and I bowled one of my best sets. Bowled a sport league this year for the first time in like 5 years. I believe there is a correlation there. I average 225+ on a THS and have a OC average of 195. I know I probably will never win (always think I could pop and shoot a decent 700) but I enjoy the competition and will continue to go.
I think these changes for the most part a good thing and while the division cutoffs aren't perfect they're a start. I like that we are no longer converting a sport average to a THS average and then bowling on a sport condition. That one made no sense. I thinks the championship average will also help with sandbagging. My son has an OC average of 153 so I know what a 155 bowler looks like and a lot of the old classified division bowlers were better than the classified division.
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Extra division gives a lot more people a chance to cash. However it also hurts the prize fund significantly. There have always been as many as 500 guys who werent PBA, Team USA or mega buck champs, that are going to be at the top of the prize lists at nationals.
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There have always been as many as 500 guys who werent PBA, Team USA or mega buck champs, that are going to be at the top of the prize lists at nationals.
Those type of bowlers are called professional amateurs.
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Probably so, but my point is there are a lot of them. When I was bowling the masters about 18 years ago they use to get as many as 700 entries. A lot of donators there, just at a higher level.