Author Topic: Scoring at USBC (Read 4501 times)

lunk_wsu · « **on:** April 30, 2009, 04:51:53 AM »

In regards to scoring at the USBC:
No matter what shot is out there someone is always going to hit it. I think that ball technology is currently ahead of the lane conditioner technology, and when you put the right ball in the hands of an experienced bowler, you're going to have high scores. USBC can't be expected to put out an ungodly hard shot to keep the top 10% of bowlers down. This tournament brings in 10's of thousands of participants, and I believe most people going to this tournament don't have the knowledge and skill set to navigate a shot like this, much less a harder shot.
--------------------
~~~~ Procrastinating farmer packs dozen chicks in carton ~~~~

storm making it rain · « **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2009, 01:02:06 PM »

i agree it's all relative..your never gonna shut out everybody...sometimes things just click at the right time right place..but you have to admit that averaging 250 at nationals is kinda sick..wonder how much he's gonna make in brackets??

another300 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 30, 2009, 01:21:04 PM »

Agreed.

When i shot my one and only 800. I was bowling with a ball I really didn't like. Ugly green color, plus it didn't react how I like. I like the arcing motion of Columbia balls. I was throwing an attitude from Brunswick i think. That combination along with the liquid courage of bud light, enabled me to shoot that series.

EagleHunter · « **Reply #3 on:** April 30, 2009, 03:14:35 PM »

lunk,
Would you suggest that USBC put down a typical house pattern, since that is all that the vast majority of tournaments bowlers would have a chance at scoring on?

Scoring is relative and someone will always "hit it"...those are the Eagle winners. However, the scoring pace is getting out of control. Riggs pointed out in another thread that 1989 was the year everything changed...it was the first 2,200+ score. Since that year winning scores have routinely been over that score. Now someone has broken the 2,300 barrier. Perhaps the time is now to address the problem.

The vast majority of the USBC tournament bowlers are there for the vacation only. It doesn't matter that most of them have ZERO chance at scoring well. If it did, entries would be decreasing year after year...but that has not happened.

Making the condition easier won't bring more bowlers. Making the condition tougher will not make the tournament lose bowlers. What is at stake is the integrity of Nationals.

Non-sports people typically understand that the U.S. Open (bowling and golf) is the most demanding event in that sport. If either one became super-easy, the glow would disappear from those events.

The USBC Nationals is the U.S. Open for amateur players. If those amateur players want to win, they have to be the best. You do not put out an easier pattern so those less talented have a better chance to feel better about themselves...while those who do have talent continually break scoring records.

As for Mr. Voakes...he was in 6 brackets in Dbls and 6 in Sgls.

storm making it rain · « **Reply #4 on:** April 30, 2009, 04:06:30 PM »

quote:
The USBC Nationals is the U.S. Open for amateur players. If those amateur players want to win, they have to be the best. You do not put out an easier pattern so those less talented have a better chance to feel better about themselves...while those who do have talent continually break scoring records.

isnt the US OPEN an open tournament, yes it is..and if i remeber right the scores this year were pretty high in qualifying.

and i think its pretty early in the tournament to say it needs to change that much. i think we should wait and see what the low to cash scores and top 100's are before we speculate.

you are right that most people use it for a vacation, but with the advent of the classified division some lower average bowlers still go out to have a shot at winning.

this guy had a great set out there no question..change has to start at the bottom and work its way up to the national level...

remember back in the day when someone bowled a 300, you had to notify your association right away, not let the lanes be touched so they could tape them, have their ball weighed to insure legality, etc..now you just fill out the form and send it away..

btw, i cant believe he only was in 6 brackets

EagleHunter · « **Reply #5 on:** April 30, 2009, 04:16:05 PM »

As far as the U.S. Open this year...you must be thinking of another tournament. The highest average of ANY bowler in the U.S. Open was Norm Duke at 214.63, followed by Barnes at 213.42, then Scroggins at 210.04.

That doesn't exactly approach high scoring...at least, not by today's standards (if you can call them that).

USBC can wait...but since they didn't address anything after 1989 (which is when Riggs rightly suggests "everything changed") should we assume they will be proactive now? It took roughly 70-80 years to break the 2,200 barrier, then 20 years to break the 2,300 barrier. So at this rate 2,400 will be broken in the next 5 years. Would it be a problem then?

lunk_wsu · « **Reply #6 on:** April 30, 2009, 04:39:29 PM »

quote:
lunk,
Would you suggest that USBC put down a typical house pattern, since that is all that the vast majority of tournaments bowlers would have a chance at scoring on?

Scoring is relative and someone will always "hit it"...those are the Eagle winners. However, the scoring pace is getting out of control. Riggs pointed out in another thread that 1989 was the year everything changed...it was the first 2,200+ score. Since that year winning scores have routinely been over that score. Now someone has broken the 2,300 barrier. Perhaps the time is now to address the problem.

The vast majority of the USBC tournament bowlers are there for the vacation only. It doesn't matter that most of them have ZERO chance at scoring well. If it did, entries would be decreasing year after year...but that has not happened.

Making the condition easier won't bring more bowlers. Making the condition tougher will not make the tournament lose bowlers. What is at stake is the integrity of Nationals.

Non-sports people typically understand that the U.S. Open (bowling and golf) is the most demanding event in that sport. If either one became super-easy, the glow would disappear from those events.

The USBC Nationals is the U.S. Open for amateur players. If those amateur players want to win, they have to be the best. You do not put out an easier pattern so those less talented have a better chance to feel better about themselves...while those who do have talent continually break scoring records.

As for Mr. Voakes...he was in 6 brackets in Dbls and 6 in Sgls.

Eagle Hunter,

I DO NOT believe that a house shot should be put down. No where in my original post did I say that. I agree that the USBC should reexamine the shot, but nothing is going to change that for this year. I'm of the opinion that the shot, no matter what is put down, is too easy to break down with today's high performance equipment. One way would be to re-oil after every squad, instead of just team event. IMO if the scores are to come down a break-through is going to have to take place in lane conditioner, or else maybe everyone should just throw plastic.
As far as the 2300 barrier goes, the mind is incredible. Once a barrier has been broke, other people start to believe that it's possible for them to hit that score too. The most memorable barrier was the 4 minute mile. Scientist said it wasn't possible for the human body to accomplish, and yet it happened.

--------------------
~~~~ Procrastinating farmer packs dozen chicks in carton ~~~~

EagleHunter · « **Reply #7 on:** April 30, 2009, 07:16:37 PM »

quote:
USBC can't be expected to put out an ungodly hard shot to keep the top 10% of bowlers down. This tournament brings in 10's of thousands of participants, and I believe most people going to this tournament don't have the knowledge and skill set to navigate a shot like this, much less a harder shot.

lunk,
Sorry if I misunderstood, but based on the above quote it seemed to imply that USBC should put out something easier. Some of what you said was said in another thread by Riggs and me.

All I know is that USBC has NEVER been proactive in addressing a problem. Riggs' opinion that everything changed, as far as Nationals, in 1989 seems correct. So that said, now that ANOTHER barrier is broken I do not expect USBC to address anything...not unless we make our thoughts known.

atltnpnr · « **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2009, 01:01:52 AM »

Have not bowled this year yet but looking at the low to cash. Seems scores will be lower to cash this year than in some of the last few.
You can view it here http://www.bowl.com/tournaments/usbcopen/National/lowtocash.aspx
--------------------
Bowling: It's cleaner than baseball.

EagleHunter · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2009, 01:18:26 AM »

Low to cash scores are a poor barometer for judging scoring conditions. Especially when the event is held in a tourist hotbed. There are over 17,000 teams for this year's event, far more than previous years. The increase in bowlers will throw off such a measurement.

On top of that, the tourney is only about half over and most of the LTC scores are within 20 pins of last year or less. We'll find out the real answer once the tournament is over, but I agree with Riggs' idea of scoring comparison and comparing the top 20, 50, and 100 scores.

Comparing how the good bowlers hit the pattern gives a much better barometer of the ease of the scoring pattern.

atltnpnr · « **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2009, 04:17:25 AM »

Good point EagleHunter. Once I come back from Vegas will be able to tell if it's more Billings like or Knoxville or somewhere inbetween. Would be great if they had any data such as "tourny average" comparision. That would really be a true indicater.
--------------------
Bowling: It's cleaner than baseball.

Jorge300 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2009, 10:29:50 AM »

EagleHunter, why is this the USBC's fault? Why is it anyone's fault?

If and when the day comes, when the stars align, and lady luck smiles on one fortunate individual and they shoot a 900 at Nationals, whose fault will it be then?

Look at the pattern graph.....compare it to last years, compare it to other years. The pattern isn't "easier" this year. The patterns are very similar year after year. The difference is the people. People have listened to the very good bowlers like Riggs, to coaches like Mike Jasnau, who have preached the need to work together for everyone's benefit. That won't change if you change the shot to something outrageously tough. All you will do is separate a few of the very very good teams, like Linds, like Riggs' team, like Browning Pontiac, etc from the pack of good teams, and the average teams will fall further from contention. You say you won't lose entries, I think you are incorrect. Go to any league and toughen uo the shot and watch the complaining begin. You may not lose entries the first few years, but in the long run you will I promise. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Just give the guy credit for shooting an awesome score. If we are here again in 3-4 years and this record has been broken 1 or 2 times, you can tell me "I told you so". But to continue like you are thread after thread sounds like a crybaby, IMHO.
--------------------
Jorge300

nd300 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2009, 10:51:22 AM »

Equipment has gotten stronger and better,which has enabled the masses,if you will,to score better than their talent level actually is. Of that there's no doubt.
I do,however,feel that there's been somewhat of the same advancement in bowling that's happened in other sports.....
1. Many,many people have actually taken an interest in improving their game and started to practice and take lessons to improve themselves. While the end results may be noticeable in league play,the practice and coaching really shows up on the tougher shots,aka,Nationals.
2. Physical fitness has also taken hold to many bowlers. Leg strength, wrist strength,etc,have given birth to bowling specific fitness programs that also help with scoring.
3. Some of us have gotten smart enough to spend the money on lessons. I took the Mike Jasnau session in Vegas. All I can say is wow. Well worth the feeit's also paid off in lessened arm/shoulder fatigue. Now it's a matter of retraining the muscle memory needed to be consistent.
--------------------
Chris
JTTDB---Just Throw The Damn Ball
Don't "think"---that ball isn't in your bag yet..........

EagleHunter · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2009, 11:09:35 AM »

Jorge,
Great bowling is no one's fault. I have already stated numerous times that the bowling that Mr. Voakes did was simply awesome. There is no way that anyone can take anything away from him, period.

That said, great bowling doesn't necessarily have to come with a record score. If Mr. Voakes bowled just as well, left the tourney leading two categories, but only shot 2150...is there something wrong with that?

The issue is scoring pace and credibility. I would assume that you have read the other thread regarding this topic...if not, please do.

I'm not going to rehash all of the arguments already made...but it took almost 80 years for ANYONE to break 2,200, it took another 20 for someone to break 2,300...so in 5 years, perhaps we'll see 2,400?

If anyone shoots 900 at Nationals I will absolutely place blame on USBC. This is the USBC's premier event for all of its members (much like the U.S. Open is for the Professionals, despite the fact it is "open"). It should not be easy and it should require close to perfection for the winners.

I have no idea how you think toughening the condition will make people stay home. How many of the 17,000 teams went home probably 20+ pins underaverage given the condition out there now? And how many of those have been doing so for the last 5-10 years? If being that far under your average doesn't deter you, then what is the magic number that will?

The league argument you make is hollow as it pertains here. Most of the people that bowl Nationals are in it for the vacation...their scoring (or lack of) proves that out in many cases. A league is not a vacation...Nationals often is.

Jorge300 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2009, 11:43:34 AM »

EagleHunter,
I am not asking for it to be easy, no one is. Yes, I did read the other thread, and responded in it as well.

So let me ask you this, if someone is taking a "vacation" to Nationals, shoots 20 pins under their average/game, and goes home content ( I won't say happy), but now they go and because you got your wish to make the shot something more difficult, they are 50 pins under their average/game, do you think they will still be content? As they see their teams fall further and further out of contention, and cashing, will they still be content? Or will they take the money they spend on Nationals and just go on vacation somewhere else?

Also, if someone cures 36 shots, and strikes on all of them, that is the USBC's fault? If the person is missing a board or two left or right every so often and still getting strikes, that is the USBC's fault? Cmon man, that is just ridiculous. When will it be enough for you, when winning an AE Eagle is just shooting plus? I can see it now.....the 2011 AE Champion EagleHunter with a score of 1825. Look I hate easy conditions, I look forward to bowling in our summer league where they put out true sport patterns, look forward to bowling PBA Regionals to bowl on those patterns. I even stay away from the monthly scratch tournament they run around my area for the most part, because they use the house shot for it, probably costing myself some money. But this isn't the USBC's fault. They put a challenging shot out there. You said it yourself, most house bowlers come in and average 10-20 pins less a game. How is that not challenging?

And as far as your year stats, look at any competitive sport, technologies change. It took 80 yr for someone to break 2200 because they were using equipment that is far below the equipment out at that time. Just like the 4 minute mile, just like the 200mph barrier, just like the sound barrier. Look at swimming in the last Olympics. Records fell almost anytime someone got in the pool. No one said anything about that being bad for their sport, so why is it bad for ours? Things that people think can never happen do. You can't stop progress. I do favor a tweaking of the shot to make it mildly more difficult, but not some monsterously difficult shot that you are advocating.
--------------------
Jorge300

Author Topic: Scoring at USBC (Read 4501 times)

lunk_wsu

Scoring at USBC

storm making it rain

Re: Scoring at USBC

another300

Re: Scoring at USBC

EagleHunter

Re: Scoring at USBC

storm making it rain

Re: Scoring at USBC

EagleHunter

Re: Scoring at USBC

lunk_wsu

Re: Scoring at USBC

EagleHunter

Re: Scoring at USBC

atltnpnr

Re: Scoring at USBC

EagleHunter

Re: Scoring at USBC

atltnpnr

Re: Scoring at USBC

Jorge300

Re: Scoring at USBC

nd300

Re: Scoring at USBC

EagleHunter

Re: Scoring at USBC

Jorge300

Re: Scoring at USBC