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Author Topic: Scoring at USBC  (Read 4500 times)

lunk_wsu

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Scoring at USBC
« on: April 30, 2009, 04:51:53 AM »
In regards to scoring at the USBC:
No matter what shot is out there someone is always going to hit it.  I think that ball technology is currently ahead of the lane conditioner technology, and when you put the right ball in the hands of an experienced bowler, you're going to have high scores.  USBC can't be expected to put out an ungodly hard shot to keep the top 10% of bowlers down.  This tournament brings in 10's of thousands of participants, and I believe most people going to this tournament don't have the knowledge and skill set to navigate a shot like this, much less a harder shot.
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nutsforbowling

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Re: Scoring at USBC
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2009, 12:10:36 PM »
quote:
Jorge,
Great bowling is no one's fault.  I have already stated numerous times that the bowling that Mr. Voakes did was simply awesome.  There is no way that anyone can take anything away from him, period.

That said, great bowling doesn't necessarily have to come with a record score.  If Mr. Voakes bowled just as well, left the tourney leading two categories, but only shot 2150...is there something wrong with that?

The issue is scoring pace and credibility.  I would assume that you have read the other thread regarding this topic...if not, please do.  

I'm not going to rehash all of the arguments already made...but it took almost 80 years for ANYONE to break 2,200, it took another 20 for someone to break 2,300...so in 5 years, perhaps we'll see 2,400?

If anyone shoots 900 at Nationals I will absolutely place blame on USBC.  This is the USBC's premier event for all of its members (much like the U.S. Open is for the Professionals, despite the fact it is "open").  It should not be easy and it should require close to perfection for the winners.

I have no idea how you think toughening the condition will make people stay home.  How many of the 17,000 teams went home probably 20+ pins underaverage given the condition out there now?  And how many of those have been doing so for the last 5-10 years?  If being that far under your average doesn't deter you, then what is the magic number that will?

The league argument you make is hollow as it pertains here.  Most of the people that bowl Nationals are in it for the vacation...their scoring (or lack of) proves that out in many cases.  A league is not a vacation...Nationals often is.


I think you WILL see a significant drop in entries the next 2 years with both being in Reno. There are probably quite a few first timers this year who have no desire to bowl bad again and simply won't come back. Plus Reno is not the draw that Vegas is. If the ecomony doesn't improve, it might be worse. I forsee somewhere around 12,500 teams next year, then less in 2011.

I think the conditions are just about right the way they are now. The only difference I would make is fresh oil for each set of d/s, but the time constraints of that probably will not allow it to happen. I mean who would want to bowl the last s/d of the night at beginning at 2 in the morning?
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EagleHunter

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Re: Scoring at USBC
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2009, 08:04:14 PM »
Jorge,
Apparently you didn't READ the discussion that I was having with Riggs.  I posed a question regarding a "soft ceiling" for scoring...Riggs replied that if USBC conducted all events on fresh that we probably wouldn't see 2,200.

Without putting words in his mouth, I think we could agree that such a score would be satisfactory.  That isn't to say that someone would not have to bowl spectacularly well to win.  The point is...why does a winning score have to be so high?

Perhaps this is a once-in-a-lifetime situation...I'm sure some said the same thing in 1989, but look what has happened since.  If you want to see 2,300 or 2,400 or more, you probably need only look to your local association or state tournament.  Nationals should NOT be the same.

As for someone "puring" 36 shots...when you meet that individual let me know.  No professional that I know of has ever achieved, let alone claim to have achieved, such a feat.  I'm sure Earl Anthony himself would say he never did it.

Records are made to be broken, but there is descending possibility and probability for most.  Why is it bad for our sport?  Can you prove that it has been good?  Did the Shammy Burt experience more entries after a team tied the National high series?  Did the Hamtramck get more notoriety and entries when a bowler almost posted 1200 (for 4 with handicap)?  The answer is no...in both cases entries went down...I wonder why?

Posting scores that most have never dreamed of or, in most cases, have ever seen is not going to help entries.  Nationals has the benefit that all entries are prepaid.  So if a team shot 3700 and someone shot 900 for Sgls with 2600 for AE, everyone would still have to show up.  Do that where entries are paid as they go...kiss the tournament good-bye.

Look, I think overall we agree.  I never advocated for a U.S. Open condition.  I referenced the U.S. Open as the STANDARD for professional bowlers and it is TOUGH.  Nationals is the STANDARD for amateurs and it should be TOUGH.  1800 top score tough?  Certainly not, but not 2300 top score tough either.

Gazoo

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Re: Scoring at USBC
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2009, 09:50:05 AM »
With regards to scoring conditions, one has to decide if it is going to be the "STANDARD" for USBC league bowlers or be the standard for "professional amateurs" when it comes down to how hard the shot should be. The USBC has to do a balancing act to try and please everyone which is a difficult task especially when the whole question of high scoring and integrity only affects about 10% of the bowlers.
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Edited on 5/2/2009 11:14 AM

rvmark

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Re: Scoring at USBC
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2009, 11:00:24 AM »
In all reality I would have to agree that as bowling ball technology improves and teams work together much as the rigg's team, the lind's team and others and then throwing in the coaching sessions with Jasnau that you can continue to toughen the pattern and they will find a way to score.  

Is the goal make it into the the US Open? Is it your contention that the best bowler is not winning?  Not really sure from the posts what you are really wanting eagle hunter.
 
In answer to an earlier statement about looking at the state tournaments for higher scores, the leading score this year so far at our tournament is a 2,188 all events scratch.

Mark

TWOHAND834

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Re: Scoring at USBC
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2009, 11:29:17 AM »
Here is my take on this.  Bowling balls plays a large part on what is going on as well.  The better teams out there, take sandblasted stuff and blow open a trough to feed their strike balls to and make the shot look like a league shot.  USBC can put a tough pattern out there.  But, the best guys out there know what they are doing.  I believe the only way that USBC can toughen the shot is go to longer patterns or higher volume of oil.  However, not sure if the machines can lay out heavier volumes longer distances.  I think if you take the ability of the bowling ball out of play, you will curb scoring ALOT.  I bowled in a league last year where they messed up the first week of league and put out the pattern that was programmed from a Sport Shot league the week before (happened to be a 50 foot pattern) and if memory serves me correctly, only 3 out of 96 bowlers broke 600 that night.  I dont care what kind of pattern you put out there, if you go 38 feet and have fresh back ends, guys like Riggs are going to shoot a bunch.  

USBC is in a damned if you do damned if you dont position.  They do not want to lose entries into the tournament so they want people to be able to enjoy their experiences to the Nationals each year.  So, they take one year and make the shot a little softer.  Learning experience as the scores are soaring?  Who knows.  Maybe there is a reason for that such as Las Vegas is not a cheap place to visit.  Unless you stay at a hole in the wall roach motel, most hotel/casinos want $100+ a night to stay there.  Anywhere else, including Reno, you can stay in a nice place for almost half that. If USBC puts out a almost impossible to score type of shot, do you think the majority of bowlers would want to return?  On the flip side, they cant really put out a THS.  If they did, it would take 2400 to take all events.  

My ideas, would be to do one less squad a day, extend the tournament by an extra month, and put fresh oil for all events and not just the team events and first s/d squad in the morning.  Another idea, is like they do with association tournaments, do nothing but team events one day, then singles/doubles the following day oiling after every other s/d squad.
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riggs

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Re: Scoring at USBC
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2009, 06:57:47 AM »
Actually, the higher the volume of oil the more it plays into lane management.  This year was the highest volume USBC has ever used for nationals. High volume = more hold once you blow open hook area.


dr300

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Re: Scoring at USBC
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2009, 10:54:06 AM »
While scoring is indeed relative, friction is not.

The USBC commissioned a year-long study on Ball Motion (see Phase I & II Final Report on website) and concluded that coverstock chemistry and on-lane friction were the primary drivers of the extreme ball motion we see on the lanes today. There is no question that this allows "opening up the lanes" and results in ensuing scores.

Basically, their conclusion was this: there's too much friction. Furthermore, there's been so much friction for so long that its become ingrained in play-styles.

This doesn't take anything away from great bowlers like Riggs. They are just taking advantage of available friction, and as opposed to 95% of league bowlers, they're capable of playing the lanes front-to-back instead of side-to-side. I'm shocked that, in this thread, nobody has tied bowling's scoring pace to escalating friction levels. Just note that the first reactive resin balls (say, the Pearl X-Calibur, which exhibited a very obvious non-linear friction-with-respect-to-velocity behavior) came out roughly the same time the scores started escalating ...
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riggs

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Re: Scoring at USBC
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2009, 12:21:37 PM »
High tech balls = higher scoring POTENTIAL (not necessarily high scores).

Sort of like a Porsche - in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to drive or on sheer ice, it's a disaster.

A lane man still can eliminate the impact of ball technology.  Petersen is the ultimate proof.

EagleHunter

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Re: Scoring at USBC
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2009, 01:20:20 PM »
And let's not forget, while "high-tech" balls are one variable, the advent of the dual-purpose lane machine (stripping/oiling daily) also plays a HUGE role in the amount of friction seen on today's conditions.

TDC57

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Re: Scoring at USBC
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2009, 01:39:43 PM »
Eaglehunter,

I again question your intelligence as I did a while back. Are you losing your cookies over one guy shooting a high score? If you are, then you're not the bowling snob I accused you of being, you're just a mental midget. Geezus man why so much angst over one guy. As someone said, somebody will always score well no matter how tough the shot. I also maintain some good bowler will always score poorly even if the shot is easy. By listening to your line of thinking the USBC should start putting out a shot that nobody scores over 550 and leaves miserable. The shot this year is not easy. Do guys put together teams that work to blow the shot open? Yes they do! How would the USBC stop that from happening? Go crawl back in you hole, you've made your one moronic appearance for the year!!

EagleHunter

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Re: Scoring at USBC
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2009, 02:51:45 PM »
TDC,
I'm not sure what your problem is, but I suggest you keep your next psych appointment.

Riggs and I have already had a lengthy, informed discussion about the things that concern me.  I don't care who wins, as long as he/she executes better than everyone else.

Riggs' contention that things changed in 1989 is spot on...among other things, it represented the first time the 2,200 barrier was broken.  What this "change" for the better?  Now the 2,300 barrier has been broken...

We can argue all day as to whether USBC should have done something about this back in 1989.  I think most bowlers agree that something should have been done, but it never was.  This year could be an anomaly, and if so, that just underscores Mr. Voakes phenomenal bowling.  On the other hand, it COULD become a trend...much like every year since 1989.

Now if YOU are incapable of understanding this possibility...buck up tiny.

rvmark

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Re: Scoring at USBC
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2009, 06:39:13 PM »
After reading through all the posts I still have the burning question what is it you really want Eagle Hunter?  

I think you are making the assumption that most bowlers felt that the USBC should have done something.  Have you done an actual statistical analysis poll of bowlers to determine this? (the bowlers I visited with coming back from nationals felt that the shot was anything but a piece of cake)

Maybe the answer is to put out a shot with basically little to no oil and see how we fare on that, this would take out of play all the new reactive resin technology would it not?

Sorry for the length but you still have yet to prove your case IMHO.

Mark

Edited on 5/5/2009 6:39 PM