BallReviews
General Category => USBC Tournament => Topic started by: Pinbuster on March 30, 2017, 06:24:35 AM
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Just announced at the Open Championship.
http://www.bowl.com/News/NewsDetails.aspx?id=23622328856
I guess I'm glad they have moved the evening squad times back to allow for the slow play but I'm glad we are bowling the early team squad.
Years ago the best team squad was 10:30 at night and it always ran late sometimes up to an hour. When the tournament was held in a Pacific Time zone that was like us starting bowling at 12:30 to 1:30 in morning and you wouldn't get done until our body clock said 4 or 5 am. You would be like a zombie when you got done.
I wonder what is making squads even slower than in the past? Is there something about the SouthPoint center?
I know the last couple of years we have had to wait at times for our squads to get started.
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The scores so far seem lower, which can cause people to bowl slower, which I'm fine with, to a point. However, some friends of mine were there last week and their 8:30 squad started around 10:30, which is ridiculous.
If you're struggling, get up and bowl. If you're bowling well, get up and bowl!
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The biggest culprit of slow play is more people are rolling 2 balls per frame than they normally would in league play. I guess USBC has finally proven the point that 90% of the bowlers are hacks. The only problem with hacks is that 90% is what helps to keep the USBC solvent.
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Lane courtesy! Every year, they announce in the squad room that there is a 1 lane courtesy, and every year, I see lots of people waiting for 2 lanes. And after they get their 2 lanes, they promptly deliver a wash out or split, and end up shooting 160.
It happens with our pairs sometimes too, and it slows things down a bunch.
What kills me is the folks waiting for 2 finally get on the approach, and somebody does the correct thing and gets up with 1 lane courtesy, and the space hog freaks out about getting jumped. It is bullshit! You get 1 lane, get the f**k up and bowl, ya diva!
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+1 Luke
My friends followed a squad with a PBA member, who will remain nameless for this discussion. He wanted not 1, not 2, but 3 lanes! This meant his whole team wanted 3 lanes, and the squad took forever.
I'm sorry. When they announce time after time that 1 lane courtesy is what is expected, and that's not acceptable to you, then don't bowl the tournament.
I know that sometimes 2 lane courtesy can move quite fast, except when no one is used to doing it then everyone stands around, ball in hand, looking left and right waiting for everyone to acknowledge, etc.
P.S. That certain pro bowler shot about 580, which is not to knock him (he has more talent in his off hand than I do with my right), but probably a testament to the difficulty of the condition. I struggle every year because I seem to love leaving splits, but I'm not worried about it. I can plan my next shot, good or bad, while on the bench, so when it's my turn I'm ready to bowl. I also don't have "PBA expectations". I don't throw the ball perfectly on house shots...
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While I agree that lane courtesy is and can be an issue that has been true for nationals over the years.
If this years squads are taking 10 to 15 minutes longer something else has changed.
There are a bunch of new bowlers coming this year to Vegas so that maybe a factor.
And it is not like the squads are bunched up, they are allowing over 3 hours for a team squad.
But society has changed as well over the years. 40 years ago houses around here had 6:00 leagues followed by a second shift at 8:30. Few 5 person teams at that time took more than the 2:30 to bowl and not very many strikes were being thrown then. Now in most of the leagues I bowl in 5 person teams can't get done in 2:45 and take up to 3 hours on house shots.
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I also wonder since no one can practice ahead of time on "the pattern" if that is causing some of the delays. When bowlers spend more time grinding and questioning things can get bogged down. I'm still looking forward to bowling and struggling with the condition (as most of us will do).
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I'm in the same boat. If I shoot something in the 600 range, it will be a good set. But regardless of my score, I can do it with one lane courtesy, and our teams will certainly spend time discussing the pattern and our ball reactions while waiting for our turn. We did get put on the clock, either last year or 2 years ago, and it made me nuts.
We like to compete. We work at it. In years past we have invested considerable time and resources to bowl on patterns similar to the open patterns. I bowl league with 1 lane courtesy. Also just got done with a scratch tournament that made no announcement about it, so courtesy was a jumbled up mess of mostly 2 lane courtesy, with some 1 lane mixed in. In the past, 1 have also bowled PBA regionals and a couple USBC Masters with the "PBA pairs", and I liked it. I prefer it. But I totally get it that I don't get to have that option. To keep myself in check, I sometimes go down to practice on weekends when there are lots of kids b-day parties, and I practice next to one of them. Intentionally. I have learned to not get distracted or upset by lane play courtesy any more. But slow play....... AAARGGGHHHH!
I realize there are more factors to it than what I am crabbing about, and some of it is legit. But we all benefit by doing what we can to keep the pace of play moving. I struggle enough with the 5 man pace as it is.
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Pinbuster's got it. Watch a league. Bowler 1 bowls. Walks back to table on the concourse. Bowler 2 gets up to go bowl. Walks back to table. Bowler 3 gets up and so on. Nobody ever greets the bowler ahead of them as they are coming off the approach anymore. When you had to keep score everyone hung in the bowlers area. Now they arrive 4 hours early for league to get a table. This pace has just carried over to nationals.
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Pinbuster's got it. Watch a league. Bowler 1 bowls. Walks back to table on the concourse. Bowler 2 gets up to go bowl. Walks back to table. Bowler 3 gets up and so on. Nobody ever greets the bowler ahead of them as they are coming off the approach anymore. When you had to keep score everyone hung in the bowlers area. Now they arrive 4 hours early for league to get a table. This pace has just carried over to nationals.
This is exactly what I'm seeing as well. I didn't bowl when manual scoring was required, but I do notice that most bowlers don't even start to head to the ball return until the previous bowler has left the approach entirely.
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Pinbuster's got it. Watch a league. Bowler 1 bowls. Walks back to table on the concourse. Bowler 2 gets up to go bowl. Walks back to table. Bowler 3 gets up and so on. Nobody ever greets the bowler ahead of them as they are coming off the approach anymore. When you had to keep score everyone hung in the bowlers area. Now they arrive 4 hours early for league to get a table. This pace has just carried over to nationals.
Agreed. I find it quite an annoying trend...
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It would be interesting to see what the pace of play is per game in each event. Meaning, as the night wears on does the pace get slower, faster or about the same. I feel like it gets faster (nerves settling down, better scoring, less guessing, just wanting to get the heck out and be done with the train wreck). That said, if someone is rolling it really well and has a chance to put up a score we typically go with the pace of that individual to keep them in rhythm and forget about being warned for slow play. I think lane monitors do a pretty good job of not trying to speed you up when they see someone doing really well.
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Congratulations on being part of the problem and trying to justify it.
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+1 Luke
My friends followed a squad with a PBA member, who will remain nameless for this discussion. He wanted not 1, not 2, but 3 lanes! This meant his whole team wanted 3 lanes, and the squad took forever.
I'm sorry. When they announce time after time that 1 lane courtesy is what is expected, and that's not acceptable to you, then don't bowl the tournament.
I know that sometimes 2 lane courtesy can move quite fast, except when no one is used to doing it then everyone stands around, ball in hand, looking left and right waiting for everyone to acknowledge, etc.
P.S. That certain pro bowler shot about 580, which is not to knock him (he has more talent in his off hand than I do with my right), but probably a testament to the difficulty of the condition. I struggle every year because I seem to love leaving splits, but I'm not worried about it. I can plan my next shot, good or bad, while on the bench, so when it's my turn I'm ready to bowl. I also don't have "PBA expectations". I don't throw the ball perfectly on house shots...
pete weber?
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Pinbuster's got it. Watch a league. Bowler 1 bowls. Walks back to table on the concourse. Bowler 2 gets up to go bowl. Walks back to table. Bowler 3 gets up and so on. Nobody ever greets the bowler ahead of them as they are coming off the approach anymore. When you had to keep score everyone hung in the bowlers area. Now they arrive 4 hours early for league to get a table. This pace has just carried over to nationals.
Agreed. I find it quite an annoying trend...
Ugh.. very annoying indeed.
This is exactly what I'm seeing as well. I didn't bowl when manual scoring was required, but I do notice that most bowlers don't even start to head to the ball return until the previous bowler has left the approach entirely.
again, ugh.. Regardless of environment (read: league, tournament, Nats, etc.), for the most when I'm bowling, I'm standing. Doesn't matter if I'm in the settee area, back on the concourse, or otherwise, I'm always standing and ready for my turn; not because I want to keep the scoring pace up, but just that sitting throws me off my normal routine over the course of the night. If I'm having a really off night, I may sit and think about what I'm struggling with (going back to internal head games/overanalyzing everything), but other than that, I'm standing because I don't want to get stiff. My muscles are already loose, and sitting may cause me to cramp..
anyway, back on point.
I'm in the same boat. If I shoot something in the 600 range, it will be a good set. But regardless of my score, I can do it with one lane courtesy, and our teams will certainly spend time discussing the pattern and our ball reactions while waiting for our turn. We did get put on the clock, either last year or 2 years ago, and it made me nuts.
Understandable, on both sides.
We like to compete. We work at it. In years past we have invested considerable time and resources to bowl on patterns similar to the open patterns. I bowl league with 1 lane courtesy. Also just got done with a scratch tournament that made no announcement about it, so courtesy was a jumbled up mess of mostly 2 lane courtesy, with some 1 lane mixed in. In the past, 1 have also bowled PBA regionals and a couple USBC Masters with the "PBA pairs", and I liked it. I prefer it. But I totally get it that I don't get to have that option. To keep myself in check, I sometimes go down to practice on weekends when there are lots of kids b-day parties, and I practice next to one of them. Intentionally. I have learned to not get distracted or upset by lane play courtesy any more. But slow play....... AAARGGGHHHH!
This may do all of us a world of good, because (and I'll throw my hand up here as well), we may have become too complacent in our ways in league and carrying that over into tournaments. I know for sure that after coming out of collegiates so many years ago and going into adult leagues, courtesy went from 1 lane to 2 lane. So as I adjusted, I got into the habit of not being able to adjust back to one lane courtesy, and end up seeing someone 2 lanes over with peripheral vision, and throwing me off (albeit slightly).
I'll preface that by defining "2-lane courtesy" as being on the approach and lining up while someone else is on the approach 2 lanes over (left or right). I'm not defining 2-lane courtesy as waiting off the approach until someone has started ball delivery. That would be unacceptable.
Regardless, I need to get back into the hang of 1-lane courtesy and tune out that peripheral vision, and doing what you're doing may be the key, if not for all of us.
pete weber?
That popped into my head as well..
BL.
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It isn't that hard. Pay a little attention to your surroundings and time it so you aren't walking at the same time as somebody 2 lanes over. Like 1 1/2 lane courtesy that doesn't slow the pace.
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It isn't that hard. Pay a little attention to your surroundings and time it so you aren't walking at the same time as somebody 2 lanes over. Like 1 1/2 lane courtesy that doesn't slow the pace.
that is kinda what I'm doing, though I'm waiting for the person 2 lanes over to start before I take my first step. But I need to do more to tune the 2 laners out, as I'll already have the 1-laners taken care of by nature of just being on the approach.
BL.
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Lemme first start out by saying that I bowled the "8:30 pm shifts" on 3/22 and 3/23, and it was frustrating...especially on the singles/doubles shift that didn't start til 10pm.
I'll be the first to admit, that my group is far from pros. With that said though, I'm not sure what all attributed to the horrendous wait times. I know day 1, 8 of the screens to the right of us literally did the Windows Blue Screen of Death (which by the way, was hilarious since I wasn't bowling on those lanes). Other than that, my pair had 1 OOR and that was all that I noticed for delays. I can say that on day 2 the squad before us had like 26 teams all from the same place, so maybe they were kinda waiting on each other maybe? All I know, is that sitting in the weigh-in room for what seemed like an eternity sucked.
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We bowl team at 5pm Friday 3/31 and sing/dbls at 9am Saturday 4/01. I will keep track of our start and finish time compared to the rest on the squad out of curiosity.
I like two lanes courtesy to my right, and one lane to my left. I only look right not to start at the same time as that bowler. Do it during league and tournaments. Usually means waiting an extra second to step on the approach, or getting up there and going before them. I don't expect it, or say anything of it. I just watch for that window and go.
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+1 Luke
My friends followed a squad with a PBA member, who will remain nameless for this discussion. He wanted not 1, not 2, but 3 lanes! This meant his whole team wanted 3 lanes, and the squad took forever.
I'm sorry. When they announce time after time that 1 lane courtesy is what is expected, and that's not acceptable to you, then don't bowl the tournament.
I know that sometimes 2 lane courtesy can move quite fast, except when no one is used to doing it then everyone stands around, ball in hand, looking left and right waiting for everyone to acknowledge, etc.
P.S. That certain pro bowler shot about 580, which is not to knock him (he has more talent in his off hand than I do with my right), but probably a testament to the difficulty of the condition. I struggle every year because I seem to love leaving splits, but I'm not worried about it. I can plan my next shot, good or bad, while on the bench, so when it's my turn I'm ready to bowl. I also don't have "PBA expectations". I don't throw the ball perfectly on house shots...
pete weber?
I can't say for sure who he's talking about, but you're correct either way. My team event followed his D/S shift. We were told to be in the squad room at 4:30 to prep for our shift at 5. At that point, Pete was just about to start singles.
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Congratulations on being part of the problem and trying to justify it.
You can call it justification if you want to. I like to think of it as respect for a fellow competitor.
Two years ago I was on the squad after the regular team eagle winner. We started pretty late and really didn't have a problem with it since we got to watch history. Imagine the scene if someone walks up to Rob Gotchall in the 10th when he has to double to take the lead and say "hey pal, your squad is behind. Hurry up and bowl".
I've also been on the same squad as a regular singles eagle winner and on the same pair as someone that shot 800. If you have any respect for those accomplishments at all you would understand how much of a once in a lifetime achievement they are. If a guy needs a little bit of time when he has the front 10 I'm going to give it to him.
If that makes me part of the problem so be it. I can appreciate how hard it is on a stage like that to put up a decent score. If someone on my pair or a surrounding pair has that opportunity I'm not going to get in the way of that. You can disagree all day long but I will guarantee you that our group isn't part of the problem on any squad we have bowled on. We finish pretty close to on time. Yes, we get the dreaded message on the score monitor to pick it up from time to time but we are NEVER the last group out of the door.
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Just got back from Nationals. There were very few breakdowns that caused big delays that I saw. Mostly, egos caused the delays.
We saw Pete Weber bowl the last game and a half of singles. When we arrived, they were the only ones bowling but there was a crowd behind the pair so we were curious. Obviously, Pete will draw attention. Even with no one else bowling, they were still slow. Mostly 1 person up at a time and the next person waited until the bowler in front was well off the approach. I got bored even though there was some really good bowlers in the group. This group got singled out by me as they were so far behind the rest of the squad and that everyone knows the PDW brand. I don't remember even seeing any other bowlers putting stuff away when they still had game and a half to go.
I didn't see the incident, but got an earful from some stranger that did. Apparently Pete didn't want to walk out with the common folks and flipped off the worker that was trying to get things moving. This stranger that gave my wife an earful sounded like she totally regretted seeing one of her heroes. May have totally been taken out of context, but it sure made an impact....in a bad way on this stranger. Again, this was stranger telling story, so can't verify accuracy. Only heartache in stranger.
I'm not the quickest person as I had a few too many times where I had to back off the approach as inner demons caused doubt as to what I was doing. I make up for those shots by greeting the bowler in front of me at the back of the approach.
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I had another bowler tell me today he thought some of the slow down maybe because of the use of switch grips.
Instead of just being able to grab a spare ball, you have to wait for your strike ball to return so you can switch the thumb grip out to the spare ball.
I'm not sure how much this is a problem but it could add a little to the slow down.
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Maybe I was just lucky. I bowled last week, and both my squads were almost on time. There were about 15 minute delays for both, but nothing unusual. I've experienced far worse delays in past Nationals.
I believe whatever time delays that occurred are mostly due to the tougher conditions. There are lots of individual scores in the 300-450 range for three game totals. It's brutal to watch, brutal to experience, and it chews up time. I saw no evidence of slowness due to switch grip transfers, bowlers not getting up to the line in a timely fashion, or any of the other reasons speculated in this thread. I was only there for my sliver of time, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
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I have been going out for 3 years. We watch a lot of people bowl, and every year the upper level teams are the last ones bowling on the squad, running 10-20 minutes or more behind. If you ever watched the live streams in years past they were always the only pair left going around the camera. I think most of it has to do with people wanting 2 lane courtesy. Until everyone's regular leagues/tournaments start using 1 lane courtesy it will remain an issue.
In regards to Pete Weber: I bowled on a squad with Pete Weber last year, he sat in the squad room like everyone else, and came out with everyone else. I wasn't there this year, but the stories someone was speculating on seem a little odd, lots of people don't like him and they will blow anything up. All I can say is he bowled last year like a normal bowler and even signed some autographs etc.
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4/31 on the 5pm squad for team we walked out onto the lanes at 5:48pm. We were one of the last teams done at around 8:50pm. One of our lanes broke down for 10mins during game two putting us behind.