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Author Topic: some final thoughts on Vegas  (Read 8059 times)

avabob

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some final thoughts on Vegas
« on: July 04, 2017, 05:26:25 PM »
I went to my 28th national tourney last week.  I watched posts on these boards and listened to horror stories for 3 months prior to bowling. 

On the pattern.  While I think it was ridiculous not to release the patterns, and told officials as much, I think we will find they were not much different in length than prior years.  Team was not near as short as people said.  I would guess about 38 feet.  D&S was about 42 feet.   I made the mistake of believing team I could play outside 5  and stayed their too long as it teased me.  D&S was one of the nicest patterns I have seen. 

I talked to a couple of other top players and they agreed that the pattern was not much different than many prior years.  Why the big secrecy puzzles me.  For those who like golf comparisons, it was like not telling the players how long the par 3s are so as not to give anyone an "unfair advantage"
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 05:53:51 PM by avabob »

 

ignitebowling

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2017, 04:53:41 PM »
If pba players are among the many shooting sub 500 scores I think saying something is needing to be adjusted to help "house hacks" is a very limited view.

Very few bowlers stand a chance for many reasons including needing a team of bowlers working together to make it work or two teams for that matter. One bowler alone trying to get the most for themselves isn't going to fair well in most cases.

If 800 to 830 leads an event with many of the mortals shooting 550 or less what does softening the condition hurt?  The mortals shoot 650 to 700 and 850 wins it. You actually bridge the gap without trying to embarrass people.
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avabob

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2017, 06:24:30 PM »
I didn't see any need to work together particularly.  The only thing we didn't want was some guy on the pair trying to go from 4th to the gutter.  The need for it effectiveness of trying to burn some swing are is over rated.  I read the lanes based on ball reaction in practice, and take what the pattern gives me.  Its going to open up.  The fact that high rev guys are going to blow a hole in the pattern quicker is why the power game is an advantage in the modern world over any longer format.  In shorter formats us strokers can find what we need as the shot transitions naturally

ignitebowling

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2017, 06:42:29 PM »
I didn't see any need to work together particularly.  The only thing we didn't want was some guy on the pair trying to go from 4th to the gutter.  The need for it effectiveness of trying to burn some swing are is over rated.  I read the lanes based on ball reaction in practice, and take what the pattern gives me.  Its going to open up.  The fact that high rev guys are going to blow a hole in the pattern quicker is why the power game is an advantage in the modern world over any longer format.  In shorter formats us strokers can find what we need as the shot transitions naturally

What we saw at the end of March differs from what you saw. Team was very payable but easily destroyed by varying styles playing different lines. Not with friction but by moving oil around to take away friction.

S/D was the opposite. High volumes with very little friction. Inside of 2nd arrow to 6th arrow in the last few feet was friction but very very high volumes up front and outside of second arrow.  Surface did not matter for the amount of oil we faced. The shot had minimal changes after 6 games. Only the small amount of friction down lane getting smaller.

Later is likely more beneficial considering the amount of wear added to the lanes along with the pins getting worn as well. Not to mention temps outside being 75 vs 110. All can be contributing factors to opening up scoring
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avabob

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2017, 08:12:14 PM »
Team was slicker and longer than I expected. D&S was long which is the easiest flat pattern to play because it puts most styles except the pure stand left guys in the same area to start.  By the way, the other that was really different was carry.  We left almost no corners and none if us are high rev guys. 

LeftyGomez

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2017, 07:10:00 AM »
Your golf comparison is apples to oranges. They quit posting patterns because it gave groups that have access to a lane machine an unfair advantage. It's definitely not fair if you have 10 guys practicing on a condition for 2 months before bowling vs a team that is bowling on a pattern for the 1st time.

northface28

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2017, 07:12:34 AM »
Your golf comparison is apples to oranges. They quit posting patterns because it gave groups that have access to a lane machine an unfair advantage. It's definitely not fair if you have 10 guys practicing on a condition for 2 months before bowling vs a team that is bowling on a pattern for the 1st time.


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Luke Rosdahl

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2017, 08:12:30 AM »
I knew I'd been avoiding this thread for a reason. 

Your golf comparison is apples to oranges. They quit posting patterns because it gave groups that have access to a lane machine an unfair advantage. It's definitely not fair if you have 10 guys practicing on a condition for 2 months before bowling vs a team that is bowling on a pattern for the 1st time.


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Good Times Good Times

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2017, 08:44:38 AM »
It's all good, we all knew this was coming.  Now, I will predict the the inevitable double-down.  Wait for it......   ;)   ;D

I knew I'd been avoiding this thread for a reason. 

Your golf comparison is apples to oranges. They quit posting patterns because it gave groups that have access to a lane machine an unfair advantage. It's definitely not fair if you have 10 guys practicing on a condition for 2 months before bowling vs a team that is bowling on a pattern for the 1st time.


Here they come.......
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JustRico

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2017, 09:02:11 AM »
No one ever blames getting beat cause they really aren't/weren't that good but excuses are easier than solutions
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SMACdi

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2017, 09:06:18 AM »
It would seem that a simpler solution would be to use your Open average to place you in a division.  My guess is that 95% in the regular division had to use an over inflated league average dating back 3 years.  The comparison between Open average, sport adjusted average and league average is crazy. 
Use the Open average as your benchmark.  Keep the divisions the same, classified, standard and regular.  First time competitors are lumped in the Regular division to establish their average.  Yes, it may be a throw away year for a lot of people but at least they have that knowledge going in and will be properly rated the next year they compete. 
Once the tournament is over take the top X% in Classified/Standard and move them up accordingly.  Then take the bottom X% in the Regular/Standard division and move them down accordingly.  Meaning, if you compete in Regular next year and finish in the bottom X% you compete in a lower division the next time you go.  If in that year you finish in the top X% you go back up to the Regular division.  It's a simple relegation system that works in other sports to compete against similar skill levels. 
I think most would agree that league averages have little to do with judging skill level but that is what we face.  You have to scratch your head a little when the best players in the world compete in the same division as the THB with an over inflated average.  There are probably a thousand holes in my theory that can be debated.  All I would like to see is USBC do something to truly balance the competitive landscape.  The changes instituted this year widened the gap IMO. 

HankScorpio

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2017, 09:19:36 AM »
It would seem that a simpler solution would be to use your Open average to place you in a division.  My guess is that 95% in the regular division had to use an over inflated league average dating back 3 years.  The comparison between Open average, sport adjusted average and league average is crazy. 
Use the Open average as your benchmark.  Keep the divisions the same, classified, standard and regular.  First time competitors are lumped in the Regular division to establish their average.  Yes, it may be a throw away year for a lot of people but at least they have that knowledge going in and will be properly rated the next year they compete. 
Once the tournament is over take the top X% in Classified/Standard and move them up accordingly.  Then take the bottom X% in the Regular/Standard division and move them down accordingly.  Meaning, if you compete in Regular next year and finish in the bottom X% you compete in a lower division the next time you go.  If in that year you finish in the top X% you go back up to the Regular division.  It's a simple relegation system that works in other sports to compete against similar skill levels. 
I think most would agree that league averages have little to do with judging skill level but that is what we face.  You have to scratch your head a little when the best players in the world compete in the same division as the THB with an over inflated average.  There are probably a thousand holes in my theory that can be debated.  All I would like to see is USBC do something to truly balance the competitive landscape.  The changes instituted this year widened the gap IMO. 

Few are going to be happy with their first year being a throw away. Maybe some locals, but you're not getting anyone that has to get on a plane to do it for nothing.

The only people that are okay with a whole year being a throw away are the people that would sandbag the crap out of the system you're suggesting.

JustRico

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2017, 09:30:15 AM »
They can rerate you after 21 games of tournament competition...they're already doing it
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fredmassie

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2017, 09:36:40 AM »
if you are unhappy as the system dictates . don't bowl in it. just my two cents worth.

LeftyGomez

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2017, 11:35:29 AM »
You white knights are hilarious ... why do teams pay hundreds of dollars to practice on the tourney shot before bowling?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 11:40:30 AM by LeftyGomez »

ksucat

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Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2017, 11:41:34 AM »
For those of us who didn't bowl as well as we would have liked, we simply weren't good enough on that day.  I bowled in March and still kick myself for not trying something different because I thought I was close.  In minors, I stayed too far right until game 5 and then just couldn't get enough pins in 2 games to make up for the rest.  In team, I just didn't see what I needed to do.  9 games somehow go by really fast.  For many of us, we don't understand ball motion well enough.  We don't execute well enough.   

I'd really like to join my kids league that bowls on different patterns.  The pattern is same for 2 weeks so you have a week to reflect on what happened, then try something different next week.  There's also an excellent coach on hand that provides paper of how pattern will "likely" play.  He's also available to ask question during league.

Amazing how different lanes look when there's oil on the outside boards.  Instead of knowing I can throw it right and find friction, you have to look for friction downlane.  Still learning to reading front-to-back instead of left-to-right.