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General Category => USBC Tournament => Topic started by: avabob on July 04, 2017, 05:26:25 PM

Title: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: avabob on July 04, 2017, 05:26:25 PM
I went to my 28th national tourney last week.  I watched posts on these boards and listened to horror stories for 3 months prior to bowling. 

On the pattern.  While I think it was ridiculous not to release the patterns, and told officials as much, I think we will find they were not much different in length than prior years.  Team was not near as short as people said.  I would guess about 38 feet.  D&S was about 42 feet.   I made the mistake of believing team I could play outside 5  and stayed their too long as it teased me.  D&S was one of the nicest patterns I have seen. 

I talked to a couple of other top players and they agreed that the pattern was not much different than many prior years.  Why the big secrecy puzzles me.  For those who like golf comparisons, it was like not telling the players how long the par 3s are so as not to give anyone an "unfair advantage"
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: northface28 on July 04, 2017, 05:40:44 PM
It gives people a false sense of security that the "good bowlers" don't know the pattern. Guess what? The leaderboard still looks the same!!! The usual suspects at the top.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: Impending Doom on July 04, 2017, 05:45:58 PM
Good bowlers throw a ball and can read reaction. Regardless of length, ratio, etc. I don't know what the surface is in Vegas, but It has to be brand new,  and that might have tricked people into thinking that they're tighter when the surface is just more pristine than they're used to.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: avabob on July 04, 2017, 06:09:54 PM
Here is the thing.  I don't mean to sound boastful, but his is a fact.  A house shooter with little or no experience on flatter patterns is going to have no chance against me whether either or both of us knows the pattern or not. 

Here is what I would do too help slow down this sinking ship.  I would put out a house shot for the classified division.  A forty foot pattern with some ob for the general division , and a challenging, but not US Open, pattern for the regular division.  In the regular division I would put it a shorter team pattern in the 37 foot range and in D&S, something in the 45 foot range.  I would publish these patterns ahead.

 House shooters wouldnt travel 2000 miles to get totally embarrassed.  Tournament level regular division bowlers would be challenged to handle different lengths, but nothing they haven't seen before
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: SVstar34 on July 04, 2017, 06:31:12 PM
Here is the thing.  I don't mean to sound boastful, but his is a fact.  A house shooter with little or no experience on flatter patterns is going to have no chance against me whether either or both of us knows the pattern or not. 

Here is what I would do too help slow down this sinking ship.  I would put out a house shot for the classified division.  A forty foot pattern with some ob for the general division , and a challenging, but not US Open, pattern for the regular division.  In the regular division I would put it a shorter team pattern in the 37 foot range and in D&S, something in the 45 foot range.  I would publish these patterns ahead.

 House shooters wouldnt travel 2000 miles to get totally embarrassed.  Tournament level regular division bowlers would be challenged to handle different lengths, but nothing they haven't seen before

I agree and I think your suggestion is something that could work
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: avabob on July 05, 2017, 12:03:47 AM
In fairnes . I saw elements of mybidea proposed in the latest BJ
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: Rightycomplex on July 05, 2017, 08:00:40 AM
Here is the thing.  I don't mean to sound boastful, but his is a fact.  A house shooter with little or no experience on flatter patterns is going to have no chance against me whether either or both of us knows the pattern or not. 

Here is what I would do too help slow down this sinking ship.  I would put out a house shot for the classified division.  A forty foot pattern with some ob for the general division , and a challenging, but not US Open, pattern for the regular division.  In the regular division I would put it a shorter team pattern in the 37 foot range and in D&S, something in the 45 foot range.  I would publish these patterns ahead.

 House shooters wouldnt travel 2000 miles to get totally embarrassed.  Tournament level regular division bowlers would be challenged to handle different lengths, but nothing they haven't seen before

I agree and I think your suggestion is something that could work

I agree with this as well. Im pretty sure someone is going to mention how to we regulate the sandbaggers but if you are gambling then youre putting your money up knowing the risks involved.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: spmcgivern on July 05, 2017, 09:22:06 AM
Downside to having different patterns for each division is you would lose the ability for teams to stay together for D&S.  You might even have to have different times for different members.

But in theory, I like the idea.  Just not sure how viable it is.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: avabob on July 05, 2017, 09:48:02 AM
Certainly dome logistical problems, and in all honesty I doubt my idea would have much of a positive impact on the decline in tournament participation. 
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: rdw on July 05, 2017, 11:47:48 AM
Speaking for the house hacks out there, I've bowled over 10 open tournaments.  For the most part, the pattern(s) look pretty similar year to year.

But this year, I found the doubles and singles shot to be not only different, but also the toughest I've ever seen.

Part of that I'm sure is our skill level.  On a house shot, we can bowl 3 games a week, chuck it in the dry, average 200 plus with an honor score every now and then.

But on a flatter pattern, the way we throw the ball, either the high revs who spray or the low revs who can't stay behind the ball, the open patterns play incredibly tough.

I used to think I was pretty accurate, but the reality is, in a single game I can hit a 7 board area.  Obviously I don't get that type of miss area on a flatter shot.  Most of my group echo the same sentiment.  Of course scoring is relative.  We will finish where we normally do, but this year thanks to the new division, we get money back.

Wasn't this the point of the new division? To entice the donators to keep bowling?

On the other hand, you guys are correct, a lot more fun to shoot 230 on house than to shoot 170 on flat.  An idea was brought up, maybe use the bowlers journal, since it's already there, have the three divisions there with the appropriate patterns.  Who bowls the bowlers journal anyway?  It's on the d/s pattern and is it scratch?  Then I'm assuming only the elite bowlers bowl it.

But with the different divisions and patterns, gives the house hacks a reason to bowl more and have some fun on a more forgiving pattern.  Instead, people are tired of traveling to the same venues year after year and bowl 9 games of 180 or less.

Just our thoughts.

Thanks
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: avabob on July 05, 2017, 01:06:16 PM
That is odd, because I found D&S to be as nice as I have seen them for several years.  We started just outside of 10 and migrated inside 15 over 6 games.  Shot a little 600 in doubles and 693 in singles.  4 of our guys were over 670 in singles.  This compared to a miserable 514 in team where I stayed out around 5 doard too long
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: Pinbuster on July 05, 2017, 01:10:06 PM
I think 3 divisions is too many. The regular division is now smaller than the standard.

I'm not sure how the prize money will play out but I think a lot of regular division guys will be disappointed at the payout and how high some of the low to cash scores are.

I would suggest raising the classified to say 190 and just have the two divisions.

I'm not sure different lane conditions would really work as some classified guys might be on a regular team, standard doubles and classified singles. Their all events scores would be a mess compared to someone bowling on only a house shot.

I think they need to give a little more crown to pattern, not a house shot, and so what when the best teams shoot 3700.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: rdw on July 05, 2017, 01:50:51 PM
Avabob,

I think several times you have mentioned that long sports are very easy to score if managed correctly .  But with six people who aren't accurate playing multiple lines, it became a nightmare.

Again another reason the house hacks have no chance against the elite bowlers and now have their own division.  Just assuming you give me fair handicap, we should be competitive on a house shot.  But as you said , on a flat pattern, you would clean my clock.  I don't need that year after year.

I agree the classified should be adjusted to 190, mostly with all the usbc average adjustments, a lot of the classified got bumped to standard and I think it would help bring classified teams to the original 20  percent projection.  You could move standard to say 191 to 215 or whatever the number needs to be to get to 20, 40 , 40.  I know the regular bowlers complaining about a smaller prize fund and the loss of easy money.  But that's reality.

Anyone have any feedback on how the new division impacted the brackets for the elite bowlers?  I heard reports of some squads having no regular brackets cause of low turnout.  In our squads we had decent regular brackets a small amount of standard and almost no classified brackets. 

I wonder how much overall bracket participation decreased?  I'm sure a concern since it is a nice revenue stream for the usbc.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: Luke Morningwood on July 05, 2017, 03:25:08 PM
Downside to having different patterns for each division is you would lose the ability for teams to stay together for D&S.  You might even have to have different times for different members.

But in theory, I like the idea.  Just not sure how viable it is.

As far as I am concerned, this is a non-starter. 3 different patterns in the same machines at USBC Open for 3 different classifications? The conspiracy theorists would go bonkers. And they would be wrong, but it was bad enough this year that Murphy had to post on facebook that the machines are locked with only the 2 patterns.
Besides, the human element would mean that it would be POSSIBLE for a mistake to happen.
Get rid of the "Eagle for each division" fiasco, that's all I want.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: avabob on July 05, 2017, 04:07:50 PM
Like I said, I don't think different patterns would probably make much difference. The pool of partipants comes from USBC membership which as shrunk drastically over the years
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: ignitebowling on July 05, 2017, 04:53:41 PM
If pba players are among the many shooting sub 500 scores I think saying something is needing to be adjusted to help "house hacks" is a very limited view.

Very few bowlers stand a chance for many reasons including needing a team of bowlers working together to make it work or two teams for that matter. One bowler alone trying to get the most for themselves isn't going to fair well in most cases.

If 800 to 830 leads an event with many of the mortals shooting 550 or less what does softening the condition hurt?  The mortals shoot 650 to 700 and 850 wins it. You actually bridge the gap without trying to embarrass people.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: avabob on July 05, 2017, 06:24:30 PM
I didn't see any need to work together particularly.  The only thing we didn't want was some guy on the pair trying to go from 4th to the gutter.  The need for it effectiveness of trying to burn some swing are is over rated.  I read the lanes based on ball reaction in practice, and take what the pattern gives me.  Its going to open up.  The fact that high rev guys are going to blow a hole in the pattern quicker is why the power game is an advantage in the modern world over any longer format.  In shorter formats us strokers can find what we need as the shot transitions naturally
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: ignitebowling on July 05, 2017, 06:42:29 PM
I didn't see any need to work together particularly.  The only thing we didn't want was some guy on the pair trying to go from 4th to the gutter.  The need for it effectiveness of trying to burn some swing are is over rated.  I read the lanes based on ball reaction in practice, and take what the pattern gives me.  Its going to open up.  The fact that high rev guys are going to blow a hole in the pattern quicker is why the power game is an advantage in the modern world over any longer format.  In shorter formats us strokers can find what we need as the shot transitions naturally

What we saw at the end of March differs from what you saw. Team was very payable but easily destroyed by varying styles playing different lines. Not with friction but by moving oil around to take away friction.

S/D was the opposite. High volumes with very little friction. Inside of 2nd arrow to 6th arrow in the last few feet was friction but very very high volumes up front and outside of second arrow.  Surface did not matter for the amount of oil we faced. The shot had minimal changes after 6 games. Only the small amount of friction down lane getting smaller.

Later is likely more beneficial considering the amount of wear added to the lanes along with the pins getting worn as well. Not to mention temps outside being 75 vs 110. All can be contributing factors to opening up scoring
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: avabob on July 05, 2017, 08:12:14 PM
Team was slicker and longer than I expected. D&S was long which is the easiest flat pattern to play because it puts most styles except the pure stand left guys in the same area to start.  By the way, the other that was really different was carry.  We left almost no corners and none if us are high rev guys. 
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: LeftyGomez on July 06, 2017, 07:10:00 AM
Your golf comparison is apples to oranges. They quit posting patterns because it gave groups that have access to a lane machine an unfair advantage. It's definitely not fair if you have 10 guys practicing on a condition for 2 months before bowling vs a team that is bowling on a pattern for the 1st time.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: northface28 on July 06, 2017, 07:12:34 AM
Your golf comparison is apples to oranges. They quit posting patterns because it gave groups that have access to a lane machine an unfair advantage. It's definitely not fair if you have 10 guys practicing on a condition for 2 months before bowling vs a team that is bowling on a pattern for the 1st time.


Here they come.......
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: Luke Rosdahl on July 06, 2017, 08:12:30 AM
I knew I'd been avoiding this thread for a reason. 

Your golf comparison is apples to oranges. They quit posting patterns because it gave groups that have access to a lane machine an unfair advantage. It's definitely not fair if you have 10 guys practicing on a condition for 2 months before bowling vs a team that is bowling on a pattern for the 1st time.


Here they come.......
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: Good Times Good Times on July 06, 2017, 08:44:38 AM
It's all good, we all knew this was coming.  Now, I will predict the the inevitable double-down.  Wait for it......   ;)   ;D

I knew I'd been avoiding this thread for a reason. 

Your golf comparison is apples to oranges. They quit posting patterns because it gave groups that have access to a lane machine an unfair advantage. It's definitely not fair if you have 10 guys practicing on a condition for 2 months before bowling vs a team that is bowling on a pattern for the 1st time.


Here they come.......
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: JustRico on July 06, 2017, 09:02:11 AM
No one ever blames getting beat cause they really aren't/weren't that good but excuses are easier than solutions
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: SMACdi on July 06, 2017, 09:06:18 AM
It would seem that a simpler solution would be to use your Open average to place you in a division.  My guess is that 95% in the regular division had to use an over inflated league average dating back 3 years.  The comparison between Open average, sport adjusted average and league average is crazy. 
Use the Open average as your benchmark.  Keep the divisions the same, classified, standard and regular.  First time competitors are lumped in the Regular division to establish their average.  Yes, it may be a throw away year for a lot of people but at least they have that knowledge going in and will be properly rated the next year they compete. 
Once the tournament is over take the top X% in Classified/Standard and move them up accordingly.  Then take the bottom X% in the Regular/Standard division and move them down accordingly.  Meaning, if you compete in Regular next year and finish in the bottom X% you compete in a lower division the next time you go.  If in that year you finish in the top X% you go back up to the Regular division.  It's a simple relegation system that works in other sports to compete against similar skill levels. 
I think most would agree that league averages have little to do with judging skill level but that is what we face.  You have to scratch your head a little when the best players in the world compete in the same division as the THB with an over inflated average.  There are probably a thousand holes in my theory that can be debated.  All I would like to see is USBC do something to truly balance the competitive landscape.  The changes instituted this year widened the gap IMO. 
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: HankScorpio on July 06, 2017, 09:19:36 AM
It would seem that a simpler solution would be to use your Open average to place you in a division.  My guess is that 95% in the regular division had to use an over inflated league average dating back 3 years.  The comparison between Open average, sport adjusted average and league average is crazy. 
Use the Open average as your benchmark.  Keep the divisions the same, classified, standard and regular.  First time competitors are lumped in the Regular division to establish their average.  Yes, it may be a throw away year for a lot of people but at least they have that knowledge going in and will be properly rated the next year they compete. 
Once the tournament is over take the top X% in Classified/Standard and move them up accordingly.  Then take the bottom X% in the Regular/Standard division and move them down accordingly.  Meaning, if you compete in Regular next year and finish in the bottom X% you compete in a lower division the next time you go.  If in that year you finish in the top X% you go back up to the Regular division.  It's a simple relegation system that works in other sports to compete against similar skill levels. 
I think most would agree that league averages have little to do with judging skill level but that is what we face.  You have to scratch your head a little when the best players in the world compete in the same division as the THB with an over inflated average.  There are probably a thousand holes in my theory that can be debated.  All I would like to see is USBC do something to truly balance the competitive landscape.  The changes instituted this year widened the gap IMO. 

Few are going to be happy with their first year being a throw away. Maybe some locals, but you're not getting anyone that has to get on a plane to do it for nothing.

The only people that are okay with a whole year being a throw away are the people that would sandbag the crap out of the system you're suggesting.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: JustRico on July 06, 2017, 09:30:15 AM
They can rerate you after 21 games of tournament competition...they're already doing it
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: fredmassie on July 06, 2017, 09:36:40 AM
if you are unhappy as the system dictates . don't bowl in it. just my two cents worth.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: LeftyGomez on July 06, 2017, 11:35:29 AM
You white knights are hilarious ... why do teams pay hundreds of dollars to practice on the tourney shot before bowling?
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: ksucat on July 06, 2017, 11:41:34 AM
For those of us who didn't bowl as well as we would have liked, we simply weren't good enough on that day.  I bowled in March and still kick myself for not trying something different because I thought I was close.  In minors, I stayed too far right until game 5 and then just couldn't get enough pins in 2 games to make up for the rest.  In team, I just didn't see what I needed to do.  9 games somehow go by really fast.  For many of us, we don't understand ball motion well enough.  We don't execute well enough.   

I'd really like to join my kids league that bowls on different patterns.  The pattern is same for 2 weeks so you have a week to reflect on what happened, then try something different next week.  There's also an excellent coach on hand that provides paper of how pattern will "likely" play.  He's also available to ask question during league.

Amazing how different lanes look when there's oil on the outside boards.  Instead of knowing I can throw it right and find friction, you have to look for friction downlane.  Still learning to reading front-to-back instead of left-to-right.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: JustRico on July 06, 2017, 11:44:40 AM
They're not practicing on the tournament shot
They are practicing on a variation of it in the bowling center...different surface and different amount of reaction
It's really not comparable 
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: LeftyGomez on July 06, 2017, 12:43:17 PM
They're not practicing on the tournament shot
They are practicing on a variation of it in the bowling center...different surface and different amount of reaction
It's really not comparable 
If it's not comparable then why are they making reservations to pay $100 for some practice?? Maybe they just like lighting money on fire ... or maybe it helps them to perform better in the tournament. Almost like it's advantageous.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: DP3 on July 06, 2017, 12:56:45 PM
There's no "unfair advantage" with guys having access to the shot to practice in their home center with completely different topography than where the USBC tournament is going to be held.

The Adam Barta, Matt McNeil, and Brandon Novak's of the world are going to steamroll everyone no matter what they bowl on.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: JustRico on July 06, 2017, 12:57:04 PM
Hmmm different surface different lane machines different oiling times and different wear factors...what could possibly be different
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: Luke Morningwood on July 06, 2017, 01:07:37 PM
They're not practicing on the tournament shot
They are practicing on a variation of it in the bowling center...different surface and different amount of reaction
It's really not comparable 
If it's not comparable then why are they making reservations to pay $100 for some practice?? Maybe they just like lighting money on fire ... or maybe it helps them to perform better in the tournament. Almost like it's advantageous.

You know what their advantage is? Hard work. Work ethic. Desire. Intelligence. Teamwork. Sacrifice. Talent.
What advantage would you claim for yourself?
You expect that if you show up with your team and get paired with Adam Barta's team that you are on equal footing if he didn't get to practice on a sport pattern?
Unless you are PBA Tour tier talented and need that info to carve out the last 5 sticks to beat them, you are dreaming that you are even in the same league.

Be honest, have you ever shown up at the ABC/USBC Open in the last 10 years with serious expectations of claiming an Eagle? Because we do. And to date, our best finish is a top 20 team 2 years ago, and let me tell you, the guys that are top 5 are a whole 'nother level of bowlers. You got nothing, and you don't want to admit it.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: Luke Rosdahl on July 06, 2017, 01:35:53 PM
Practice at home and at the tournament site are two different things, but ask ANYONE who has done that and/or have bowled the Bowler's Journal tournament and they'll all tell you the tournament lanes played different, and this is with the same oil, same machines, same location, and same lanes.  The BJ is supposed to be the D/S shot every year, but every single year it always plays wetter for me than the tournament lanes, and if I base my strategy for the tournament on the BJ, I screw myself every time.  Perceived value and actual value are two different things.  People have been told there's value in it, so they believe it rather than actually judging that for themselves. 

They're not practicing on the tournament shot
They are practicing on a variation of it in the bowling center...different surface and different amount of reaction
It's really not comparable 
If it's not comparable then why are they making reservations to pay $100 for some practice?? Maybe they just like lighting money on fire ... or maybe it helps them to perform better in the tournament. Almost like it's advantageous.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: WOWZERS on July 06, 2017, 01:58:31 PM
I bowl in the same league as Barta on Thursday nights during Fall/Winter leagues.

As someone above said, he is going to steamroll you if he played on the pattern or not prior to getting to Vegas or wherever the Championships are held that year.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: Good Times Good Times on July 06, 2017, 02:02:56 PM
It's all good, we all knew this was coming.  Now, I will predict the the inevitable double-down.  Wait for it......   ;)   ;D

 ;D
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: Luke Rosdahl on July 06, 2017, 02:04:06 PM
Yeah dammit.  I tried to resist and got sucked in.  Knew it . .

It's all good, we all knew this was coming.  Now, I will predict the the inevitable double-down.  Wait for it......   ;)   ;D

 ;D
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: DP3 on July 06, 2017, 03:54:03 PM
The South Point bowling center house shot is one of the highest scoring houses in Vegas with the most friction outside. Makes sense why urethane was playable out for some guys. That built in burn isn't there in the arena. Guys trying to do the same in both centers got a rough lesson in topography.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: JustRico on July 06, 2017, 04:11:33 PM
I don't think logic is appropriate on this site
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: northface28 on July 06, 2017, 06:24:20 PM
The South Point bowling center house shot is one of the highest scoring houses in Vegas with the most friction outside. Makes sense why urethane was playable out for some guys. That built in burn isn't there in the arena. Guys trying to do the same in both centers got a rough lesson in topography.

Ask Brad Miller and Mike Remakulas. They both destroyed South Point BJ with urethane outside 5. In the arena? No sir.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: SVstar34 on July 06, 2017, 06:54:31 PM
The South Point bowling center house shot is one of the highest scoring houses in Vegas with the most friction outside. Makes sense why urethane was playable out for some guys. That built in burn isn't there in the arena. Guys trying to do the same in both centers got a rough lesson in topography.

Ask Brad Miller and Mike Remakulas. They both destroyed South Point BJ with urethane outside 5. In the arena? No sir.

There was plenty of hook on a 48' pattern at South Point, there's a lot of friction
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: tburky on July 06, 2017, 07:55:15 PM
Many bowlers that have bowled on house shots all of their life will never compete against the teams that have bowled on everything. As for the people paying the money to bowl on something that resembles the national patterns...forget it. Spend the money at your house practicing on sport patterns provided they have the ability to do that jmho.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: ignitebowling on July 06, 2017, 09:32:32 PM
For me the practice condition at South point was fairly close to the team condition I bowled on an hour later. A little more friction then in the arena but good practice.

The bji was also very playable for me, but still tough till the last game when I found a ball and line that was comfortable for me……….. Fast-forward to the arena and singles/doubles and it wasn't remotely close. It felt as though they dumped a bucket of oil every where and friction was a small illusion off in the distance.

We bowled the end if March and we were the 5pm squad for team and the early squad for s/d.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: ozsweet on July 08, 2017, 02:59:37 PM
I just got back from my 21st tourney and while i did not bowl well, found that D/S was playable from the inside but didn't get there in time. We had 0 friction/recovery near 10 and outside, unless you had a really soft hand. My best game was 210 in singles playing 20 to 15 with a little lost and staying behind the shot (not my typical game as i am a lower tracker that is speed dominant). By end of Game 2 of singles I was 25 out to about 15 with a little wrinkle. Anyone outside in singles whether straight up or swing was dead (we bowled on 43-44). My doubles team bowled with 2 classified bowlers throwing straight down the middle of the lane and 2 others angling it from 10 to the pocket. i saw a few good scores in doubles on our squad (a couple by other guys on our team).

Team had a lot of friction on the backend that was tamed down by middle of game 2 but i did not see the conditions being similar to Practice Lanes at the league center as the practice lanes had no carry down effect and the tourney center did. We bowled on 3 -4 in Team.

Chris Barnes bowled the day before us and shot 607-647-591 (1845) and Jason Belmonte bowled on our team squad (different D/S squad) and shot 652-716-705 (2073). I mention this because it just shows you that the hot bowler who matches ball to pattern and repeats shots always will do best - 153rd place in Singles for the best player in the world tells you that.

Anyway, I was rated in Standard as i havent bowled league in several years any my USBS tourney average when uprated was under 210. I think that division actually helps maintain interest for some (I always competed Regular regardless of whether i was bowling or not) and it also hurts the guy who is over 210 in league but now must bowl better to case since the low-to-cash is now higher in Regular. While the prize pool may be less in Regular and no doubt that is a detriment to the better player, the best players remain at the top of the division.

I did not find that the lane topography maps were any indication of "hang area" in the tourney, but i am not as precise as i once was so perhaps others saw it differently.

In summary, i thought the lanes were playable for those with very controlled games but otherwise were pretty touchy for the average player. Don't like the lack of water coolers in the South Point stadium but otherwise, other than the long haul to get in from the casino entrance, was a decent place to bowl.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: leftybowler70 on July 08, 2017, 03:13:25 PM
Thanks for sharing!!!
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: Jesse James on July 08, 2017, 06:53:20 PM
You had very good observations Ozsweet! I did similarly to you in s/d. I started with a 212 game and just got worse from there, since I did not migrate far enough left to start playing the lanes inside.

Because of my experience during the Teams event, I was reluctant to make normal moves on the lanes, for S/D. During Teams, I actually migrated right during my last game.

The carry down was a serious barrier since the pieces I had were not big backenders. I finally moved in, maybe the 9th and 10th frames and realized, that by adding hand and playing deeper you could carry the world!! SIGH!

it was truly a learning experience! As for water.....the machine was absolutely empty before we even finished the first set, and the hydrants were so far away, you feared leaving your lanes because you would slow up the tempo for everyone else on the pair.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: avabob on July 10, 2017, 11:17:06 PM
I think one thing nobody touches on is the transitions.  I very seldom find a pattern that I can't line in.  The problem is the transitions.  Carrydiwn is the toughest on shorter to medium patterns because it happens in strips when guys are playing multiple angles and sooner or later you do get a track.  On the other hand longer patterns are easier because the long buff pretty much negates carry down and only gives the breakdown/open up transition to deal with.  This explains why D&S transitioned so much nicer than team.  Team wasn't as shirt as I have expected, but it still transitioned tougher with Carry down
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: Mr Hurt24 on July 11, 2017, 09:03:12 AM
It's been a little over a month since I went to my 1st Nationals event. The Southpoint Hotel as a whole was great but the walking not so much. The room, restaurants, bars, movie theater were all fantastic, the gambling not so much even though i broke even on a penny slot machine. So the bowling was up and down for the most part. I didn't do so well in the Bowler's Journal as I should have practice on the VIP lanes first and it eventually became an expensive practice session. I bowled with Dino Castillo and Sean Lavery-Sphar on the squad and they somewhat struggled to shoot decent scores but they did better than me.

Team Event
Team event played short to me and my teammates unfortunately did their on thing. The backends were flying and as someone who is not good on short patterns, the only ball I could throw was my Black Hammer. I shot 188, 181, 181, 550. My team was all over the place and I think some got fooled by watching footage on Facebook on where to play which was a bad idea and I was the only one that played outside of 10(7,8). I pretty much played up the lane and adjusted from their. My team as a whole pretty much played their favorite line they ususally played and it was a diaster for most part.

S & D
Singles and doubles were interesting to say atleast. I didn't have a great look in doubles and my partner was even worse because he didn't undertsand the concept of playing straigther at the beginning and then letting the shot open up. For me the pattern was longer but didn't play tight at all unlike the other 3 bowlers on my pair.  I tried my Hyper Cell & Impulse Solid(hooked way to much) and my polished Legion was blah. Doubles: 161, 167, 164, 492.. I had way too many opens(9) and my look wasn't great at all and my teammate shot 414 as he tried to make his favorite shot work again..
Now Singles, I decided to throw my Black Hammer again as I switch to it the last few frames of the last game of doubles. It was best decision I've made in a long time. Singles: 206, 225, 214, 645.. I made a move in and played 15 to 10 made neccessary adjustments and just tried to stay up the back of the ball and kept my ball speed up a little bit. I only had 2 opens that set and really could had shot higher than that but after a bad doubles no complains from me. So that score will cash and I made a some decent bracket money back as I put most of it in Singles. Heck, I managed to beat Josh Blanchard in a few brackets so that was pretty cool. All-events was a 1687 so not too bad at all. But overall, I had a blast and looking forward to my second Nationals event in Syracuse..

Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: avabob on August 07, 2017, 12:33:09 PM
Surprised there have been no posts on prize fund which is now posted.  I was actually pleasantly surprised.  Much smaller regular division and relatively high low cash projections didn't look good.
Title: Re: some final thoughts on Vegas
Post by: HackJandy on August 07, 2017, 06:56:10 PM
It's been a little over a month since I went to my 1st Nationals event. The Southpoint Hotel as a whole was great but the walking not so much. The room, restaurants, bars, movie theater were all fantastic, the gambling not so much even though i broke even on a penny slot machine. So the bowling was up and down for the most part. I didn't do so well in the Bowler's Journal as I should have practice on the VIP lanes first and it eventually became an expensive practice session. I bowled with Dino Castillo and Sean Lavery-Sphar on the squad and they somewhat struggled to shoot decent scores but they did better than me.

Team Event
Team event played short to me and my teammates unfortunately did their on thing. The backends were flying and as someone who is not good on short patterns, the only ball I could throw was my Black Hammer. I shot 188, 181, 181, 550. My team was all over the place and I think some got fooled by watching footage on Facebook on where to play which was a bad idea and I was the only one that played outside of 10(7,8). I pretty much played up the lane and adjusted from their. My team as a whole pretty much played their favorite line they ususally played and it was a diaster for most part.

S & D
Singles and doubles were interesting to say atleast. I didn't have a great look in doubles and my partner was even worse because he didn't undertsand the concept of playing straigther at the beginning and then letting the shot open up. For me the pattern was longer but didn't play tight at all unlike the other 3 bowlers on my pair.  I tried my Hyper Cell & Impulse Solid(hooked way to much) and my polished Legion was blah. Doubles: 161, 167, 164, 492.. I had way too many opens(9) and my look wasn't great at all and my teammate shot 414 as he tried to make his favorite shot work again..
Now Singles, I decided to throw my Black Hammer again as I switch to it the last few frames of the last game of doubles. It was best decision I've made in a long time. Singles: 206, 225, 214, 645.. I made a move in and played 15 to 10 made neccessary adjustments and just tried to stay up the back of the ball and kept my ball speed up a little bit. I only had 2 opens that set and really could had shot higher than that but after a bad doubles no complains from me. So that score will cash and I made a some decent bracket money back as I put most of it in Singles. Heck, I managed to beat Josh Blanchard in a few brackets so that was pretty cool. All-events was a 1687 so not too bad at all. But overall, I had a blast and looking forward to my second Nationals event in Syracuse..

Blah blah blah urethane doesn't carry.  Blah blah blah reason reactives displaced urethane overnight (no offense to guy who said it who actually knows his stuff and just doesn't like how hard surface maintenance is with urethane or looks it give his style).  Maybe true slightly on house shot (not really especially if you understand how to play up the boards and aren't scared of the dry to the outside) but when you can't afford to guess at what the ball will do urethane is often the go to.  Funny how quickly my arsenal is filling with urethane and pseudo urethane.