Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 08, 2010, 02:59:48 AM
So the rules guy at USBC tells me, "You are not sure what is going to happen in the scale room. You may or may not be asked to prove the thumb hole drilled is useful." SO....he is a rules person who cant tell me what the rules are in regards to proper drillings for two handers. He did ask, "Can you cover the thumb hole with your thumb or palm of your hand?" I said yes. He then stated, "You should not have anything to worry about. But why dont you drill your thumb holes to normal size?" I told him that there were no rules regarding hole size if you dont use a thumb and since my track clips the hole, that the smaller the hole, the less time my track will hit that hole and that I had to have a hole there for static weight requirements. His next course of action was to transfer me to someone else and that he could not tell me what to expect once I get to Reno.
Nothing in the rulebook states anything about covering the hole with your palm in regards to USBC. For the record, I did go to the pro shop and drilled my virtual thumb holes a little bigger. I am so glad that they can clarify rules regarding bowlers who throw the ball in a manner that I do.
My question is: why have rules for two handers in the rule book if you are not sure how those rules apply at your own tournament (USBC Tournament)?
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: Russell on February 08, 2010, 11:04:14 AM
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Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: BrunsMike on February 08, 2010, 11:17:20 AM
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Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886
Post by: J_w73 on February 08, 2010, 01:12:23 PM
that being said.. I looked at the rule book and it does say this about two handed or thumbless APPROACH. I think this would be the rule you would be looking for.
Holes:
The limitations governing the drilling of holes in the ball
can be found on page I-3.
Note that for two-handed techniques, the holes or indentations
for gripping purposes must be used and be
capable of being used by the same hand.
The way I see it is if you have a thumbhole then you have to be capable of putting your thumb in it.
So if the hole is too big to be a weight hole then you better be able to put your thumb into it. If it is within the weight hole size/rule limits then it is considered a "weight hole" and you can place it anywhere on the ball as long as the ball is within weight limits. You shouldn''t have to be able to use it because it is a "weight hole" not a thumbhole..
anyone see it any different.
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18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience
Edited on 2/8/2010 2:13 PM
Post by: completebowler on February 08, 2010, 01:57:00 PM
I remember seeing something in the rules a few years back about "gripping holes" that led me to this thought. Statics are based off g.c. and if you only grip the ball with fingers (and only put those holes in) then your g.c. becomes directly between the fingers.
Someone correct me if they have a different interpretation or if this language has changed.
To the op...it is only IF you put a thumbhole in the ball that your thumb has to fit. Know what I mean?
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Post by: J_w73 on February 08, 2010, 02:19:04 PM
quote:
I''''m pretty sure you don''''t have to put a thumb hole in the ball. This would then create a grip center that is the bridge between the fingers and allow much different layouts due to statics.
I remember seeing something in the rules a few years back about "gripping holes" that led me to this thought. Statics are based off g.c. and if you only grip the ball with fingers (and only put those holes in) then your g.c. becomes directly between the fingers.
Someone correct me if they have a different interpretation or if this language has changed.
To the op...it is only IF you put a thumbhole in the ball that your thumb has to fit. Know what I mean?
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The proper way to determine center of grip on different grip configurations is defined in the rulebook.
You are correct, you don''''t have to have a thumbhole drilled in the ball. If you do, like the original poster does, All gripping holes drilled must be ABLE to be used for gripping.. So if you drill a thumbhole you don''''t have to use it but you have to BE ABLE to to use it.. this stops someone from putting the cg and a huge hole off to the right side and saying, "it is my thumb hole."
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18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
Edited on 2/8/2010 3:25 PM
Edited on 2/8/2010 3:25 PM
Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 09, 2010, 07:29:58 PM
quote:
2 handed bowling is still a new style for most of us including the USBC. Instead of complaining about it, why not try to offer some help to the USBC with 2 handed rule's and clarification? Obviously you're used to this and have a much better understanding what should be in the rule's and how it should be in the book's. Just my thought's.
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Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886
You know, Mike. I just may do that. I know a old friend (Mitch Mitchell) that has been on USBC staff for a long time that hopefully will be in Reno for the Opening Ceremonies. If I see him, I will have a talk with him and see if we can have a more in depth talk about the future of us two handers and if there is going to be rules concerning us, what those rules will be/might be.
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: DanH78 on February 09, 2010, 08:04:42 PM
quote:
The USBC is like this on most of their rules.. They make rules that really mean nothing and it is really rare for them to give you a definite ,"this is how it is" answer. I wish they had atleast one person there that knew the rules and how to interpret them...
The US Government can't even come to an agreement on how to interpret their rules and laws, why should the USBC be any different? Perhaps it's happened in the past, but I can't remember a time that the Supreme Court returned a unanimous ruling. And they are supposed to be some of the greatest legal minds in the country.
In the grand scheme of things, most rules are open to interpretation. Like Brunsmike said, you can complain and see nothing get done, or you can do something to try to help make things better.
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It IS next year!
Post by: mumzie on February 09, 2010, 11:49:06 PM
I dug one out that was 2 years old, and I was told they Wouldn't use it - but THEY COULDN'T FIND A CURRENT ONE!!!!!
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www.Shirts4Bowling.com
We Know What Bowlers Want
Home of the HAMBONE shirt!
Post by: Jorge300 on February 11, 2010, 07:58:56 AM
At that time the rules stated that you could only have one hole in the ball that wasn't used for gripping purposes. So he had a ball and wanted a weight hole it in, so he had ir drlled with fingerholes, the weight hole and no thumbhole, since he wouldn't be using it. This ball passed all checks that I know of. I would assume this would pertain to the two-handed bowlers as well. If you have a "thumbhole" in the ball, it has to be useable or else it would fail this rule. If it isn't in a position on the ball, and of a size that would fit your thumb of your dominant hand, then it has to be a weight hole. No issues if you don't have any other weight holes in the ball, but if you do, then it might be deemed illegal.
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Jorge300
Post by: Balldoctor on February 12, 2010, 04:22:24 PM
you have to be able use or cover the thumb hole.
Three gripping hole allow you the USBC tolerances.
If you use two gripping holes those tolerances are cut in half.
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Ambassador Of Bowling
Post by: Gazoo on February 12, 2010, 06:25:02 PM
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"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"
Post by: J_w73 on February 12, 2010, 08:07:35 PM
quote:
J_w73 is correct.
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"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"
wow.. I think that is like the 3rd time someone has actually agreed with me on this board..HAHAHA
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18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
Post by: BBU on February 12, 2010, 08:13:11 PM
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Its Hammer Time!!
HammerHead 4 Life
Post by: BrunsMike on February 12, 2010, 08:35:24 PM
quote:quote:
2 handed bowling is still a new style for most of us including the USBC. Instead of complaining about it, why not try to offer some help to the USBC with 2 handed rule's and clarification? Obviously you're used to this and have a much better understanding what should be in the rule's and how it should be in the book's. Just my thought's.
--------------------
Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886
You know, Mike. I just may do that. I know a old friend (Mitch Mitchell) that has been on USBC staff for a long time that hopefully will be in Reno for the Opening Ceremonies. If I see him, I will have a talk with him and see if we can have a more in depth talk about the future of us two handers and if there is going to be rules concerning us, what those rules will be/might be.
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Good luck with that and hope something can get acheived. I myself is not a 2-Handed bowler, just a normal conventional 1 hander. lol I'm just now starting to come into my own this way I couldn't imagine how long it would take me to learn the 2 handed style. Provided I could even do it. I've tried in the past but little success mainly because of no ball speed.
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Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886
Post by: JessN16 on February 12, 2010, 10:07:49 PM
Lots of One-Bullet Barneys in charge of this sport.
Jess
Post by: J_w73 on February 12, 2010, 10:16:18 PM
quote:
pssshhh...this is nothing. We just had the two-handed, thumbless junior bowler son of one of my leaguemates get banned from a tournament last week because the tournament director asserted "two-handed bowling is illegal." Also subsequently refused to even open a rule book. "I know I'm right" was his response to my friend's objections.
Lots of One-Bullet Barneys in charge of this sport.
Jess
That's crazy. I don't know why people make that big of a stink about it.. its just a glorified no thumb release...
but to say it is illegal just to say it is and not let someone into a tournament.. that is dumb..
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18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
Post by: DanH78 on February 12, 2010, 11:17:26 PM
quote:
Lets be honest. Most of the people at the local level, who are USBC officials or in office are clue less about the rules, and the sport in general.
This is the 1st problem with the sport. The people who puff out their chest, because they are in charge, do not know any of the rules at all.
Then the USBC rules department, do not even know their own rules.
Good news is they fired about 30 people from the USBC HQ and will be even more clueless about the sport!
Yea Bowling!
Edited on 2/12/2010 11:28 PM
So are you a local Director? Or do you just like to bash those that are trying to help?
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It IS next year!
Post by: JessN16 on February 13, 2010, 12:28:27 AM
quote:
So are you a local Director? Or do you just like to bash those that are trying to help?
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It IS next year!
I don't know if he is, but I used to be. Here's what I learned during two years as an association president:
1) There are always 2-3 guys who will always be there for you whenever the association needs something...
2) ...but that's all, and...
3) ...some of the worst rule violators/a-holes/good-for-nothings come from the group that get themselves into positions of authority.
I got disillusioned with things pretty quickly. Found out lots of people like to talk but when it comes to helping you with something (especially crawling around under a pinsetter in the heat of the summer to do annual lane inspections), talk is all they like to do. But they love bossing other bowlers around, that's for sure -- even while they are caking a pancake's worth of E-Z-Slide on the bottom of their shoes.
Jess
Post by: DanH78 on February 13, 2010, 11:12:09 PM
quote:
Get real buddy and get out of your house and take a good look at the joke that the USBC is. Just because your local association might be shinny happy people holding hands, doesnt mean the USBC local association program is working.
A) Learn the quote function. Not that hard
B) Answer the question posed
If you think the USBC (Local, State or National level) is a joke, what are YOU doing about it? Other than going on an anonymous BB and complaining that is.
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It IS next year!
Post by: Atochabsh on February 15, 2010, 12:09:32 AM
Post by: Bill Thomas on February 15, 2010, 04:58:00 AM
Edited on 2/15/2010 5:58 AM
Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 15, 2010, 06:14:42 AM
quote:
USBC has said that a two-handed bowler only really uses one hand. Seems counter intuitive to me. But who are we to challenge the USBC?
Edited on 2/15/2010 5:58 AM
Which is exactly why there are any rules pertaining to thumb holes.
EX: What advantage does having a thumb hole and not using it give over a cranker who uses a thumb hole full time? Revolutions are revolutions and thumb holes are thumb holes. Does the bowler with a 21 drill bit for a thumb have an advantage over the guy who has a 29 drill bit? I personally dont think so.
But, as I stated before in this thread, if I see people this weekend in Reno that are on staff with USBC, I may start a conversation about "special rules" concerning two handers and see where it goes. If I am able to get that far, I will post on here next week what I find out.
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!