Post by: A_P_K on August 06, 2003, 11:23:22 PM
One post caught my eye where the Charcoal was mentioned as a control ball. If this COULD seem to be the case, what are the major differences between these two balls other than the particles in the Purple Ice? I'm pretty sure both balls are 600 wet sand grit though.
Jeffrevs.....this came from part of your control ball post.......I'd figure I'd ask to get a few drilling options for the Char Ex......since it has such a heavy midlane like the Crimson.
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Pin_Krusher, formerly Divine Dragon.....a.k.a...The Littleboy with a neutron bomb
Drastically inflicting pin punishing destruction, and doing it with...................well a Drastic!!
Post by: livespive on August 07, 2003, 03:04:17 PM
I have talked to several people and they are telling me to use multiple
charcols drilled and pollished different ways to get the job done.
With both balls being 600, I am guess that the addition of the particles give a little more midlane than the charcol. I myself am looking at making a arsenal out of visionary equipment, using excecutioners for tournaments.
There is a user here called "The Dude" He is a prostaff member of visionary, and has proved very useful in the question that I have asked him.
Right now I have a charcol drilled label leverage. I am looking at another charcol, then maybe a crimson.
From what I have gotton off of this site and other reading, label drillings are best. Below are a couple of links from older post that I was involved in:
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=28239&ForumID=15&CategoryID=2
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=17542&ForumID=15&CategoryID=2
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Edited on 8/7/2003 3:31 PM
Post by: Jeffrevs on August 07, 2003, 03:28:03 PM
the Ex core is the same...the charcoal is a solid, the Purple is a particle pearl but 600 wet sand....how can the Purple be a control ball. I would have to guess that the cover is totally unique from the Crimson and Charcoal thus giving it a "urethane on steroids" roll.......
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
Post by: A_P_K on August 07, 2003, 03:34:41 PM
I saw it and just couldn't resist. I too would like to go with Visionary completely. The Crimson is just an amazing ball that I can use on any shot without major problems. Thanks Livespive, your threads shown me what I wanted to see. The more sense it makes, the Executioner's appear to be a "control" line up. I was trying to put together a small tournament arsenal as well, but I do want to try the Char Ex in leagues. Although, I don't think there will be enough oil for that ball, I don't want to drill it weak either. There's always my Crimson
for the house shot! .....And I feel I'll be going with a label variation on the Charcoal anyway.If you get the Crimson, I'd believe you'll like it. Mines's drilled 5x4 with the MB strong and it gets down the lane super smooth, but has just the perfect arching motion to kill the rack. It's not too strong, but it's definitely not a weak backend by any means either.
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Pin_Krusher, formerly Divine Dragon.....a.k.a...The Littleboy with a neutron bomb
Drastically inflicting pin punishing destruction, and doing it with...................well a Drastic!!
Post by: A_P_K on August 07, 2003, 03:37:44 PM
Maybe they're using a different type of particle that grabs sooner.....beats me I've never seen a Purple before.............even the particles in the Granite cause the ball to roll early....I feel like I can shave my face with that ball out of the box.....
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Pin_Krusher, formerly Divine Dragon.....a.k.a...The Littleboy with a neutron bomb
Drastically inflicting pin punishing destruction, and doing it with...................well a Drastic!!
Post by: livespive on August 07, 2003, 03:38:01 PM
To kill the length, and overunder on a pearl you sand it. But you still cant get as much out of it as a solid. That is where I think they added the particles to increase the grab on the lane.
This is just my guess though.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: livespive on August 07, 2003, 03:59:51 PM
I am planning on getting a crimson, and getting it drilled just like my old
Rhino Pro X (Stacked leverage). I'll have to see where I am going to place the MB
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: Jeffrevs on August 08, 2003, 06:44:21 AM
quote:
I'll have to see where I am going to place the MB
Eric, stacked leverage would mean strong, so you'd want the mb to the right of your thumb (righty)
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 07:30:42 AM
Visionary states that it is a minor MB,.....so would it have a great affect on the Executioners, or is this something for the "keen at eye" pro type to notice?
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In the old days people used to cut wood with an axe.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: Jeffrevs on August 08, 2003, 07:32:58 AM
Supposedly, the stronger the MB the easier it is to see its emphasis on the balls reaction.....so it the X MB isn't that strong, then no, not really will see it that much......
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 08:21:39 AM
quote:quote:
I'll have to see where I am going to place the MB
Eric, stacked leverage would mean strong, so you'd want the mb to the right of your thumb (righty)
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
Yes it does, I wasn't thinking when I typed that. What I was really saying
was if I was going to go stacked, or more of a 10:30 leverage drill.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 08:26:11 AM
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In the old days people used to cut wood with an axe.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: Jeffrevs on August 08, 2003, 08:29:26 AM
quote:
If I drilled any Executioner 1:30 label, wouldn't that put the MB on the left side of my thumb?......Or could it be possible to get it in the strong position?
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In the old days people used to cut wood with an axe.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
PK, I doubt that, but I'm not 100% sure
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 08:34:20 AM
I see it making sense on paper, but that's just paper........and then again the MB can be completely ignored if I choose too do so.
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In the old days people used to cut wood with an axe.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: Jeffrevs on August 08, 2003, 08:37:20 AM
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 08:47:17 AM
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In the old days people used to cut wood with an axe.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: Jeffrevs on August 08, 2003, 08:59:18 AM
quote:
What will the MB in the track react like? I'm assuming it would tame down the backend some????
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In the old days people used to cut wood with an axe.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Well Eric sent me a great piece of "Ballstuff" via email called Marios Secrets.....this is a pretty good description...
left of thumb : small arc
right of thumb: flip or hard arc
further right: a little less of a hard arc
out at the val: continuous large arc
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
Post by: Pye on August 08, 2003, 09:07:06 AM
Mass Bias Location/Use
The inner portion of the core has a second nub located at a 30 degree offset from the bottom of the core. This does create a mild mass bias that is located 11 1/4" from the pin in a direct line through the CG. Like with the Gargoyle line, we have not marked this spot because it is a minor mass bias that mainly is used to help achieve better pin-out locations. Also, by placing the nub towards the bottom instead of on the side, the core maintains a medium differential while the RG was lowered. It can be drilled with great success by completely ignoring this spot. If fine tuning is desired then this spot can be treated like any other mass bias location (even though it's further away than normal MB locations) by keeping the same general directions as stronger or mellower layouts **see the DC line drillings for Visionary MB suggestions**. Again, this will make minor adjustments which may not even be detectable by some people.
With that said, the only way I can see to get the mass bias in the "strong" position is to drill the ball either stacked leverage or even more extreme, axis leverage.
If you have a lot of hand I wouldn't recommend either of these drills. If your rev challenged they are a good option depending on the conditions your looking to use them on.
Let me see if I can get the picture of the mass bias layout to post...
Edited on 8/8/2003 9:21 AM
Post by: Pye on August 08, 2003, 09:08:18 AM
Crimson Executioner Drillings
Don't think that worked!
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 09:12:53 AM
The MB of my Crimson is inbetween the VAL and thumb hole. It gets real good length because of the pearl cover but has a pretty strong backend reaction. I honestly think it is stronger than what people give it credit for.
That will narrow it down to putting the MB on the VAL or just to the right of the thumb.....but I'm leaning towards the latter idea.
Then maybe I can put the MB on the VAL when I get the Purple Ice for a hard roll.....hmmmm sounds like a strategy......let me see what the driller will say.
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In the old days people used to cut wood with an axe.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 10:17:39 AM
THe MB on the ex is :
The angled neck is located on a line from the Pin through the CG at a distance 11-1/4" from the pin past the CG.
If you move the cg you are going to move the MB
From what I have heard the covers on the ice and charcol are strong enough so that label drillings work best. especially if you have hand.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Edited on 8/8/2003 10:29 AM
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 10:23:29 AM
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In the old days people used to cut wood with axes.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 10:42:07 AM
put a good polish on it (I think 1000) I might just get bold and try it for leagues.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 10:44:22 AM
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In the old days people used to cut wood with axes.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 10:53:24 AM
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 10:58:51 AM
I was thinking about using it only for tournies but I love Visionary so much now I may just sell the SC.
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In the old days people used to cut wood with axes.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 01:03:12 PM
Unless you put polish on the charcol it will be to strong for a house shot.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 01:28:24 PM
It's a little boggling looking at the core picture on Visionary's web site? This should end my learning lesson for the day.............
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In the old days people used to cut wood with axes.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: Jeffrevs on August 08, 2003, 01:30:19 PM
quote:
IT has alot of midlane to it is the big thing. I can't compare it myself to the supercarbide, as I have not seen one (SC) thrown. Looking at the little diagram that they show on the web, I would say the travel path is about the same. That is about the path that my ball takes.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Eric, you mean on Lane1's site?
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 01:32:29 PM
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: TheDude on August 08, 2003, 01:33:29 PM
For the Charcoal Exe, it can be polished but it will need a label drilling or something that isn't drilled for early roll. an early roll layout and polish makes the ball sometimes a little bit unpredictable.
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Visionary bowler, I see the future!
Tim Thompson, Visionary Bowling Products Proshop staff For Canada.
Post by: TheDude on August 08, 2003, 01:36:04 PM
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Visionary bowler, I see the future!
Tim Thompson, Visionary Bowling Products Proshop staff For Canada.
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 01:57:21 PM
When I did polish the Super Carbide it was a bit more usable on house type shots too, but it had more of a ridiculous backend for a heavy load particle.
I don't think I'd polish the Charcoal though, the Executioner's wouldn't be so without the heavier midlane roll. For the house shot, I have the Crimson, and even the Blue Gryphon when I get it.
.......But.....the thing I love the most is that all this ball is......RESIN....yay for resin!!!!!!!
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In the old days people used to cut wood with axes.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 02:05:47 PM
quote:quote:
IT has alot of midlane to it is the big thing. I can't compare it myself to the supercarbide, as I have not seen one (SC) thrown. Looking at the little diagram that they show on the web, I would say the travel path is about the same. That is about the path that my ball takes.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Eric, you mean on Lane1's site?
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
Yeah, on Lane 1's site.
PK
This is from the visionary site:
The angled neck is located on a line from the Pin through the CG at a distance 11-1/4" from the pin past the CG.
That is where the MB will be located on the excecutioners.
As far as the lane one site, I was speaking mainly about the shape, and not the number of boards.
Hey Dude I was waiting for you to show up
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 02:13:49 PM
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In the old days people used to cut wood with axes.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 02:16:54 PM
quote:
Ok i went back and saw and didn't realize i hadn't even answered the original question. Ok, the Charcoal, is a heavy oil ball, i would compare it to a Vortex 2 original. the purple ice has the same core, and similar rolling characteristics. but the special cover is unique in that it wants to roll sooner, and more evenly. when saying control your not saying lack of hook, just lack of jumpiness.
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Visionary bowler, I see the future!
Tim Thompson, Visionary Bowling Products Proshop staff For Canada.
Lack of jumpiness would be it.
I polised mine because I didn't want it rolling as early as it was. I have not seen any jumping on the backend as of yet. I still have to try it on the house shot though.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Edited on 8/8/2003 2:30 PM
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 02:44:01 PM
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=19454&ForumID=15&CategoryID=2
Intresting
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: Jeffrevs on August 08, 2003, 02:45:05 PM
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 02:51:44 PM
quote:
Guys,....what IS the house shot Visionary ??
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
I am talking about the easy shot that gets put out by league, unless you are lucky enough to get a sports shot.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 02:53:56 PM
If the oil is too heavy or there's any carrydown, I move to the right and shoot straight up the 10 board. Usually outside the oil line the ball will cut through the carrydown no matter what. I am currently averaging 225 on a pattern that has a longer medium oil with slimy backends that get slimier over time. This average though is only based on the Crimson which I've thrown 12 games so far. (I didn't have it before)
If the lanes are breaking down then I move left and keep going until I can't go any further. Even on the driest shot I've ever seen in open bowling, I can still ROLL the ball over the center arrow and it will flare to the pocket. Playing this deep does not effect the carry or hitting power what so ever.
I can also turn it up when it's dry and swing the hell out of the Crimson. The widest I've ever played with it was lining left foot 0n 35 throwing out to 15 rolling out to 5 and it has the guts to get in the pocket.
So.....whoever out there that had this piece and couldn't really get it to turn didnt' have it drilled right.
So, I'd say that is your house type Ex.
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In the old days people used to cut wood with axes.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: Jeffrevs on August 08, 2003, 02:56:27 PM
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 03:06:01 PM
quote:
What I'm saying is......what is a good league condition VBP ball?
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JEFF
Just chimin' in !
oops, must be friday
I use the DC Tour Drilled stacked Pin about 4" out above and right of the ring finger. I pull it out second, and third game. I have liked the DC core to bad they are getting rid of them. I would probably say crimson ex the gryphon is pretty good from what I hear.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 03:09:47 PM
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In the old days people used to cut wood with axes.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 03:20:16 PM
quote:
Hey........you wouldn't classify the Crimson as a good leauge ball!!??....
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In the old days people used to cut wood with axes.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
I thought I did. It's friday though, I might have left it off
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: A_P_K on August 08, 2003, 03:22:37 PM
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In the old days people used to cut wood with axes.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: livespive on August 08, 2003, 03:23:44 PM
quote:
I was a little slow in my post when I responded to Jeff. I saw you mention yours, and yes it is Friday and I'm suffering from the same stuff you guys are...........but my day is over in 20 minutes.
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In the old days people used to cut wood with axes.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Yeah mine too, unless I decide to make it 20 seconds
Later
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: A_P_K on August 10, 2003, 08:52:13 PM
My assumption if I understood what I read in all these posts is no it doesn't determine the MB, but I would like a definite YES or NO, and that'll be it for me.
Thanks fellas
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In the old days people used to cut wood with axes.....................now and days...............they just have Exectuioners do it for them!
Post by: livespive on August 15, 2003, 06:01:29 PM
This is from the visionary site:
The angled neck is located on a line from the Pin through the CG at a distance 11-1/4" from the pin past the CG.
That is where the MB will be located on the excecutioners.
This is where you find the MB on the excecutioner.
Eric
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member