Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on November 30, 2008, 02:08:02 PM
Its very confusing on why it does that....
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
"
Post by: J_w73 on November 30, 2008, 10:42:23 PM
I think I talked to you a while back about it since you are visionary guy.
I tried every cover / polish combo and it didn't work.. thought is was burning up.. or thought it was me..
Finally gave up on it and had my driller throw it. He has alot of hand and he couldn't get the ball to move either... this was on wood though.. so I don't know what the deal is..
The ball worked great piping it straight down 10 ..
when every I tried other lines I could only swing the ball maybe 3 boards or it wouldn't recover..
what is your layout.. mine is 5 inch pin to pap with a 70 deg mb.. I'm thinking the mb angle is too much..but I don't know.
Post by: MI 2 AZ on November 30, 2008, 11:13:23 PM
The first one is drilled Rico and has a very even arcing movement although it is not covering a lot of boards. It does carry very well for me, so it is one of the balls I usually end up using. Surface is at 800 scotchbrite.
The second one I bought used and just had the thumb slugged and redrilled with my pitches. I have not used it as much as my Rico version, but it does have more length and more backend than the Rico.
--------------------
I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
_________________________________________
New to BR? - Please check this: BR FAQ (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: J_w73 on November 30, 2008, 11:19:02 PM
I agree that the ball's carry is amazing.
Post by: bltbyj on November 30, 2008, 11:28:23 PM
go straight as an arrow. Here is a shot of it on wood lanes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mReoyWRu3c
Here is the layout.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3jUHRGfVvQ&feature=related
Looks nothing like this on synthetics.
Edited on 12/1/2008 1:02 AM
Post by: J_w73 on November 30, 2008, 11:48:51 PM
what is your layout..
so what do you think it is.. too much traction on synthetics and burning up or not enough and just no grab to hook??
Post by: J_w73 on December 01, 2008, 12:04:35 AM
hard to make out on the video..
Post by: bltbyj on December 01, 2008, 12:04:37 AM
want to hook up. I had it at white,grey,green and maroon pad
with and without polish.
Post by: J_w73 on December 01, 2008, 12:07:32 AM
quote:
On wood mine was outstanding but on synthetics the ball would just
go straight as an arrow. Here is a shot of it on wood lanes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mReoyWRu3c
Here is the layout.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3jUHRGfVvQ&feature=related
Looks nothing like this on synthetics.
Edited on 12/1/2008 1:02 AM
what does it do on synthetics.. hook 5 boards regardless of where you throw it..
that is what mine does.. max recovery .. 5 boards.
Post by: bltbyj on December 01, 2008, 12:13:01 AM
I would be lucky if the ball moved 5 boards.
Post by: charlest on December 01, 2008, 05:31:46 AM
I know the core in this ball and the flare potential is just HUGE. Most people with average rev rate cannot drill it with less than 5" pin to PAP UNLESS they have a fairly high ball speed or very high tilt or 90 degrees of rotation. The rough stock surface (I realize you have tried many surfaces) plus the incredible flare rate means this ball starts flaring before it leaves you hand. 10" is not unusual!!!
PLUS it has a strong mass bias. You have to be VERY careful with the MB placement. Placing it too close to your axis will make the ball try to go into a roll even earlier!!! I hope you did follow the drillign instructions and didn't just place the CG where you normally put it on other balls.
This could have something to do with this problem.
Before dumping this ball, you might try redrilling it with a longer and high pin position.
To be honest, I bought the "plain" AMB Centaur and its core is milder than the Immortal's core, but it still flares 6-8".
Good luck.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: J_w73 on December 01, 2008, 09:03:11 AM
pin above ring finger with the mass bias right next to the thumb.. (70 degree drill angle)
I was thinking that mine is to much of an angle with the super strong mass bias..
I under stand the high diff and super flaring.. so if it was flaring too much and overflaring or rolling out the ball would be rolling end over end too early and have no hook left..
this isn't the case.. the ball still has the side rotation and lots of it.. it just never hooks up.
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on December 01, 2008, 10:40:46 AM
I have a couple of these drilled up....I'll take a look at your video when I get home tonight (youtube is blocked at work).
I've not had this problem with either, here are the specs:
Imm Solid #1 - 5 1/8 Pin to PAP, da = 25, vala = 45
2000 with Storm #2 Polish
I use this on 40+ patterns which has allowed me to swing the gutter a little and bring it back when most people can't.
Imm Solid #2 - 5 Pin to PAP, da = 65, vala = 40
1000 Abralon with light Ebonite Factory Polish
I haven't used this yet, but the longer angle allows me to get a little deeper on oilier conditions where I can play left of bowlers who are forced to play the track or right, allowing me to not have to move and free up hook to the right that they burn up by playing the track.
Once I see your vids, I'm pretty sure I can give you some suggestions, at least that is the plan.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 01, 2008, 07:49:18 PM
quote:
Greetings,
I have a couple of these drilled up....I'll take a look at your video when I get home tonight (youtube is blocked at work).
I've not had this problem with either, here are the specs:
Imm Solid #1 - 5 1/8 Pin to PAP, da = 25, vala = 45
2000 with Storm #2 Polish
I use this on 40+ patterns which has allowed me to swing the gutter a little and bring it back when most people can't.
Imm Solid #2 - 5 Pin to PAP, da = 65, vala = 40
1000 Abralon with light Ebonite Factory Polish
I haven't used this yet, but the longer angle allows me to get a little deeper on oilier conditions where I can play left of bowlers who are forced to play the track or right, allowing me to not have to move and free up hook to the right that they burn up by playing the track.
Once I see your vids, I'm pretty sure I can give you some suggestions, at least that is the plan.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn- http://www.bowl4money.com/what.html - Visionary Arsenal
- http://www.bowl4money.com (Personal Site)
- http://www.sparesproshop.com (Staff)
- http://www.row-del.com (Staff)
Stephen,
Do you happen to have pics of the two immortals?? I'm going to try moving more inside with the ball and see how that works. Maybe its just burning out for me and I need to get more into the oil with it and thats what my problem is.
Thanks
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
"
Post by: J_w73 on December 01, 2008, 07:55:33 PM
quote:Quote
Do you happen to have pics of the two immortals?? I'm going to try moving more inside with the ball and see how that works. Maybe its just burning out for me and I need to get more into the oil with it and thats what my problem is.
Thanks
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
how is yours drilled Matt?
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 01, 2008, 08:14:48 PM
quote:quote:Quote
Do you happen to have pics of the two immortals?? I'm going to try moving more inside with the ball and see how that works. Maybe its just burning out for me and I need to get more into the oil with it and thats what my problem is.
Thanks
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
how is yours drilled Matt?
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 01, 2008, 08:32:49 PM
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi450.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq229%2FNorCalBowler%2FImmortalSolid.jpg&hash=00698e2237d085e192156e7dd680f37b7ff56a88)
I screwed up on the plug job on the fingers
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
"Edited on 12/1/2008 9:34 PM
Post by: J_w73 on December 01, 2008, 09:20:53 PM
quote:
Here is how mine is drilled...
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi450.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq229%2FNorCalBowler%2FImmortalSolid.jpg&hash=00698e2237d085e192156e7dd680f37b7ff56a88)
I screwed up on the plug job on the fingers
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
Edited on 12/1/2008 9:34 PM
present drill looks like a pretty strong layout..
what was up with the first drill.. did you throw that..
looks closer to my layout..except the pin is below the fingers as opposed to above..
Post by: rustylegacy on December 01, 2008, 09:22:49 PM
Post by: bltbyj on December 01, 2008, 09:34:29 PM
http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/BLTBYJ/?action=view¤t=DSC02409.jpg
Post by: J_w73 on December 01, 2008, 09:36:32 PM
quote:
I bet its rolling out, with the low pin, guessing a shorter distance, and the Mb way over. I didnt like the solid, but have found a great ball in the pearl @ 4000 abr. Like Charlest said these things flare HUGE. My pearl comes to the VAL.
I thought that too.. but that would mean the ball is rolling end over end right?? mine was still rotating sideways.. just never moved.
Post by: scotts33 on December 01, 2008, 09:57:30 PM
IMO....the IS is a condition specific ball as will be the New Breed Solid. Most of us just don't see that amount of oil. See Stephen's reviews on the NBS.
I just think that is why most of us will be using balls like the New Breed Pearl like many used the Immortal Pearl rather than the Solid.
For more info. see what I did last week in the Good Scores topic on this forum. I played a tight line with a weaker drilled IS and scored well.
--------------------
Scott
Post by: bltbyj on December 01, 2008, 10:08:20 PM
The house that I shot the Vid in is known to be on the dry side and the cover was at grey pad and no polish the house that I'm at now has more oil and I've tried different colored pads with polish and no polish and could not find a happy medium with the cover.
Post by: scotts33 on December 01, 2008, 10:32:10 PM
Like I said the IS is condition specific....I believe too many people are using the IS laid out wrong for the wrong condition but that's just me.
--------------------
Scott
Post by: bltbyj on December 01, 2008, 10:40:41 PM
What condition would you use it on? I'm a high rev player on wood this ball is money but on synthetics this ball is anything but money.
Post by: scotts33 on December 01, 2008, 10:44:27 PM
--------------------
Scott
Post by: bltbyj on December 01, 2008, 10:58:09 PM
I would say a THS but I can find out for sure on wednesday not sure what type or how old the synthetics are. I would stand with my left big toe on 26 looking 15 at the arrows to around 7 at the break point. I do pretty well with my Blue Nanodesu (I think its particle pearl) or my Pearl Blue Carbide Buzzsaw.
Post by: J_w73 on December 02, 2008, 12:06:16 AM
quote:
If I was too drill another IS for my stats. I'd drill it pin over ring about 4.75" pin to PAP and CG stacked straight down about a 90 deg. layout. For me it would get some decent length with enough recovery but no early roll or burn. Why I'd lay out this way would be for some strength left too long a pin to PAP would not give enough recovery for a tweener or fluffer. Pin down would read too early for most lane conditions and most players.
Like I said the IS is condition specific....I believe too many people are using the IS laid out wrong for the wrong condition but that's just me.
--------------------
Scott
that is almost how mine is.. still doesn't work.. 5 inch pin to pap.. pin over and to right of ring ringer about 1 inch.. mb.. directly underneath it to the right of the thumb at a 70 deg drill angle.
great down and in ball.. don't swing it or it won't come back.
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on December 02, 2008, 08:12:43 AM
http://www.bowl4money.com/images/balls/Immortal%20Solid.gif
PIN to PAP: 5"
Drill Angle: 65 degrees
VAL Angle: 40 degrees
Coverstock: 2000 Abralon w/light factory polish
--------------------
Stephen Hahn
Post by: scotts33 on December 02, 2008, 08:15:02 AM
quote:
My Immortal Solid:
http://www.bowl4money.com/images/balls/Immortal%20Solid.gif
PIN to PAP: 5"
Drill Angle: 65 degrees
VAL Angle: 40 degrees
Coverstock: 2000 Abralon w/light factory polish
That's how I'd drill one for my stats.
--------------------
Scott
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on December 02, 2008, 09:06:48 AM
Here is my $.02 on what I'm seeing with your layouts and with many other bowlers I've dealt with in the past with regards to this ball and other balls like it.
The Immortal Solid is a the stongest ball ever made in the bowling industry, PERIOD!
Sadly enough, people have mis-drilled this ball numerous times because they didn't understand just how strong it really was because nothing compared to it, hence the reason other manufacturers scrambled to make big hooking balls to compete with this juggernaut.
Now, with your situations, based on the pics, i agree with Scotts. The pins are low, 1 to 1.5 inches right of your ring (nearly leverage for most), this ball will begin to come off it's axis rotation as soon as it encounters enough friction to do so (at 1000, it doesn't take much).
There are 5 types of bowlers and these are the layouts I potentially layout for them on the Immortal Solid, adjust cover accordingly:
Speed Dominant - Leverage to 4 inches (drill angle 20-40, val angle 40-50)
Slightly Speed Dominant - 4 to 4.5 inches (drill angle 20-50, val angle (40-50)
Match - 4.5 to 5 inches (drill angle 40-70, val angle 50-70)
Slightly Rev Dominant - 5 to 5.5 inches (drill angle 60-80, val angle 50-70)
Rev Dominant - 5.5 to 6 inches (drill angle 80-105, val angle 60-80)
If you're able to measure your angles, it would be interesting to see where your style and those angles fall into the listing above. I tend to fall between match and slightly speed dominant so I use the angles to help me create the ball reaction I see myself needing on certain patterns.
More to come...let me know your thoughts....I hope you find some of this information useful. Scotts33, i agree with your analysis, hopefully this helps in isolating the issue from a technical view.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 02, 2008, 09:10:43 AM
Do you by chance have pics of the layouts of your whole visionary arsenal?
Thanks!
quote:
My Immortal Solid:
http://www.bowl4money.com/images/balls/Immortal%20Solid.gif
PIN to PAP: 5"
Drill Angle: 65 degrees
VAL Angle: 40 degrees
Coverstock: 2000 Abralon w/light factory polish
--------------------
Stephen Hahn- http://www.bowl4money.com/what.html - Visionary Arsenal
- http://www.bowl4money.com (Personal Site)
- http://www.sparesproshop.com (Staff)
- http://www.row-del.com (Staff)
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
"
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 02, 2008, 09:26:40 AM
Hmmm, I have to look into that. I would say that Im about speed dominant to slightly speed dominant. I may to plug and redrill this ball.
Thanks!
quote:
Nor Cal, bltbyj, J_w73,
Here is my $.02 on what I'm seeing with your layouts and with many other bowlers I've dealt with in the past with regards to this ball and other balls like it.
The Immortal Solid is a the stongest ball ever made in the bowling industry, PERIOD!
Sadly enough, people have mis-drilled this ball numerous times because they didn't understand just how strong it really was because nothing compared to it, hence the reason other manufacturers scrambled to make big hooking balls to compete with this juggernaut.
Now, with your situations, based on the pics, i agree with Scotts. The pins are low, 1 to 1.5 inches right of your ring (nearly leverage for most), this ball will begin to come off it's axis rotation as soon as it encounters enough friction to do so (at 1000, it doesn't take much).
There are 5 types of bowlers and these are the layouts I potentially layout for them on the Immortal Solid, adjust cover accordingly:
Speed Dominant - Leverage to 4 inches (drill angle 20-40, val angle 40-50)
Slightly Speed Dominant - 4 to 4.5 inches (drill angle 20-50, val angle (40-50)
Match - 4.5 to 5 inches (drill angle 40-70, val angle 50-70)
Slightly Rev Dominant - 5 to 5.5 inches (drill angle 60-80, val angle 50-70)
Rev Dominant - 5.5 to 6 inches (drill angle 80-105, val angle 60-80)
If you're able to measure your angles, it would be interesting to see where your style and those angles fall into the listing above. I tend to fall between match and slightly speed dominant so I use the angles to help me create the ball reaction I see myself needing on certain patterns.
More to come...let me know your thoughts....I hope you find some of this information useful. Scotts33, i agree with your analysis, hopefully this helps in isolating the issue from a technical view.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn- http://www.bowl4money.com/what.html - Visionary Arsenal
- http://www.bowl4money.com (Personal Site)
- http://www.sparesproshop.com (Staff)
- http://www.row-del.com (Staff)
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
"
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 02, 2008, 09:34:44 AM
quote:quote:
Here is how mine is drilled...
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi450.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq229%2FNorCalBowler%2FImmortalSolid.jpg&hash=00698e2237d085e192156e7dd680f37b7ff56a88)
I screwed up on the plug job on the fingers
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
Edited on 12/1/2008 9:34 PM
present drill looks like a pretty strong layout..
what was up with the first drill.. did you throw that..
looks closer to my layout..except the pin is below the fingers as opposed to above..
I got the ball used on here. What I mean about the plug job is I didnt get the bright yellow dark enough so the fingers look clear.
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
"
Post by: J_w73 on December 02, 2008, 09:51:14 AM
quote:
scotts33,
I would say a THS but I can find out for sure on wednesday not sure what type or how old the synthetics are. I would stand with my left big toe on 26 looking 15 at the arrows to around 7 at the break point. I do pretty well with my Blue Nanodesu (I think its particle pearl) or my Pearl Blue Carbide Buzzsaw.
what house are you talking about..? if it is a certain house in the area then it might not be the "synthetics"
Post by: J_w73 on December 02, 2008, 10:11:56 AM
quote:
Here is how mine is drilled...
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi450.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq229%2FNorCalBowler%2FImmortalSolid.jpg&hash=00698e2237d085e192156e7dd680f37b7ff56a88)
I screwed up on the plug job on the fingers
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
Edited on 12/1/2008 9:34 PM
where is the weight hole on that ball??
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 02, 2008, 11:10:37 AM
quote:quote:
Here is how mine is drilled...
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi450.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq229%2FNorCalBowler%2FImmortalSolid.jpg&hash=00698e2237d085e192156e7dd680f37b7ff56a88)
I screwed up on the plug job on the fingers
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
Edited on 12/1/2008 9:34 PM
where is the weight hole on that ball??
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Pro Shop Apprentice
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revalation
"Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket??
"
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on December 02, 2008, 11:25:22 AM
You should cut out some of the extra signature stuff in your quotes...making the reading screen very long.
Anyways, I've posted pics of the Imm Solid, New Breed Solid, New Breed Pearl on my What's In The Bag....
I'll have the rest in up there and I'll layout the ball with the dual angles mapped on the balls too.
J, I replied to your PM.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 02, 2008, 11:36:17 AM
quote:
Matt,
You should cut out some of the extra signature stuff in your quotes...making the reading screen very long.
Anyways, I've posted pics of the Imm Solid, New Breed Solid, New Breed Pearl on my What's In The Bag....
I'll have the rest in up there and I'll layout the ball with the dual angles mapped on the balls too.
J, I replied to your PM.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn- http://www.bowl4money.com/what.html - Visionary Arsenal
- http://www.bowl4money.com (Personal Site)
- http://www.sparesproshop.com (Staff)
- http://www.row-del.com (Staff)
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
Post by: bltbyj on December 02, 2008, 01:18:00 PM
Seeing the layout I have on my ball and the one vid shot. I don't think I've had this answered. Wouldn't the ball burn up on dry wood lanes? If you see the vid shot the house that I rolled it in is known to be on the dry side and the house I bowl in now has more oil and even when I move out the ball doesn't want to recover. I know this is a very strong ball thats why I got it. I just don't know why it works better with little oil as to a medium amount of oil.
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on December 02, 2008, 02:21:34 PM
Hence,
On axis to long, need more surface (ie. 500 grit abralon and then work your way back up).
Off axis too quickly, needs less surface (ie. 2000 or 4000 abralon and/or plus polish).
Good Luck, let me know what you find out based on the tape test.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn
Post by: J_w73 on December 02, 2008, 02:30:30 PM
quote:
On axis to long, need more surface (ie. 500 grit abralon and then work your way back up).
Off axis too quickly, needs less surface (ie. 2000 or 4000 abralon and/or plus polish).
[/size=2][/font=Verdana]
you are saying the tape will stay on the PAP if there is oil and no friction??...
ball will not flare??
what does off axis too quickly look like.. ??
Post by: scotts33 on December 02, 2008, 03:25:28 PM
--------------------
Scott
Post by: bltbyj on December 02, 2008, 05:57:43 PM
I'll do one better I'm going to shoot video tonight of mine and Matt's and then I'll post it here.
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 03, 2008, 07:24:58 AM
We bowled right after league on a pair we are going to bowl on this coming weekend in a tournament (which should be very similar if they dont oil our pair for the last 3 games of the 6 gamer).
Anyways, I threw my solid and same thing, the thing slid. We didnt get it on video, but if I took a good 4mph off the ball, it read and struck.
Jay's ball worked great which is why he says the ball works good for him on dry rather then a wet condition.
I noticed throwing both immortals is I know Im a low tracker but the balls had a really weird track on the ball with the combo I think of the flair and my track. I have to see if I can get pics to show it or not. I may have to use a grease pencil to highlight it...
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
Post by: scotts33 on December 03, 2008, 07:44:27 AM
This is what I'd do mentioned by Stephen earlier in this thread.
Place a piece of tape on your axis, and see when the ball flares, and if it stops flaring. If it is flaring out prior to reaching your breakpoint, than you will have a better idea as to how to proceed.
For me with these type of balls that have a lot of flare potential which also would include balls like the Cell and some MoRich equipment that are also asymmetrical....to get the full potential out of the ball I need to make sure I stay under the ball and get more forward roll.....the more side roll and off the side to soon these balls never seem to carry as well or stay on line as well. Just my perspective.
--------------------
Scott
Post by: bltbyj on December 03, 2008, 09:06:48 AM
We did put tape and like Matt said his would slide down the lane as for mine it got threw the heads and it had plenty left at the pins. I'll also try to get some video of it at are home house.
Post by: J_w73 on December 03, 2008, 09:22:39 AM
quote:
Well last night Jay and I threw our Immortal solids and I also threw my Immortal Pearl.
We bowled right after league on a pair we are going to bowl on this coming weekend in a tournament (which should be very similar if they dont oil our pair for the last 3 games of the 6 gamer).
Anyways, I threw my solid and same thing, the thing slid. We didnt get it on video, but if I took a good 4mph off the ball, it read and struck.
Jay's ball worked great which is why he says the ball works good for him on dry rather then a wet condition.
I noticed throwing both immortals is I know Im a low tracker but the balls had a really weird track on the ball with the combo I think of the flair and my track. I have to see if I can get pics to show it or not. I may have to use a grease pencil to highlight it...
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
so you threw his and it worked better. Is this on wood or synthetics.
did you ever throw your immortal with the other drill on it before plugging..? looks like that would have been a similar pin placement with a larger deg for the MB..
that is what is weird is that your ball should read faster and transition quicker based on the MB..
what degree of axis rotation were you throwing??
Maybe there is a happy medium for the mb on those balls that works.. mine is pin up 70 deg.. yours is pin down probably 45.. maybe smaller.. maybe something in the middle is the key
Edited on 12/3/2008 10:39 AM
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 03, 2008, 09:35:49 AM
quote:quote:
Well last night Jay and I threw our Immortal solids and I also threw my Immortal Pearl.
We bowled right after league on a pair we are going to bowl on this coming weekend in a tournament (which should be very similar if they dont oil our pair for the last 3 games of the 6 gamer).
Anyways, I threw my solid and same thing, the thing slid. We didnt get it on video, but if I took a good 4mph off the ball, it read and struck.
Jay's ball worked great which is why he says the ball works good for him on dry rather then a wet condition.
I noticed throwing both immortals is I know Im a low tracker but the balls had a really weird track on the ball with the combo I think of the flair and my track. I have to see if I can get pics to show it or not. I may have to use a grease pencil to highlight it...
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
did you ever throw your immortal with the other drill on it before plugging..? looks like that would have been a similar pin placement with a larger deg for the MB..
No I never threw it cause it didnt fit.
But both ball's flare rings are which is kinda hard to describe but like its on the bottom third of the ball
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on December 03, 2008, 01:56:29 PM
quote:
Anyways, I threw my solid and same thing, the thing slid. We didnt get it on video, but if I took a good 4mph off the ball, it read and struck.
Seeing what you wrote above, gives me cause for concern that you might be a speed dominant and the ball layout is not conducive to your game.
The reason being, is that if you slowed the ball down and got a decent reaction then that tells me the ball is not coming off it's axis fast enough.
It would be interesting to hear what the tape on your PAP does.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn
Post by: J_w73 on December 03, 2008, 02:08:52 PM
quote:quote:quote:
Well last night Jay and I threw our Immortal solids and I also threw my Immortal Pearl.
We bowled right after league on a pair we are going to bowl on this coming weekend in a tournament (which should be very similar if they dont oil our pair for the last 3 games of the 6 gamer).
Anyways, I threw my solid and same thing, the thing slid. We didnt get it on video, but if I took a good 4mph off the ball, it read and struck.
Jay's ball worked great which is why he says the ball works good for him on dry rather then a wet condition.
I noticed throwing both immortals is I know Im a low tracker but the balls had a really weird track on the ball with the combo I think of the flair and my track. I have to see if I can get pics to show it or not. I may have to use a grease pencil to highlight it...
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
did you ever throw your immortal with the other drill on it before plugging..? looks like that would have been a similar pin placement with a larger deg for the MB..
No I never threw it cause it didnt fit.
But both ball's flare rings are which is kinda hard to describe but like its on the bottom third of the ball
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
I had an AMB particle drilled leverage.. the flare rings where like 1.5 inches or more apart and flared all the way around the ball.. looking at the last flare ring the finger holes would be on the side of the ball as it entered the pocket.. the ball didn't work well for me.. not rolling out.. just wobbled down the lane and never did anything..
I changed it to 6 inches.. I threw it last night and the flare rings were more like a normal ball.. and it worked much much better..
I imagine your pins are at leverage with your drill or close to it..
I think that is just too much for these .075 balls or what ever they are..
I'm thinking max flare isn't always good.. maybe it is the style or rotation.. not sure ..
how far are the flare rings apart on yours and Jays ball.
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 03, 2008, 02:17:19 PM
quote:quote:
Anyways, I threw my solid and same thing, the thing slid. We didnt get it on video, but if I took a good 4mph off the ball, it read and struck.
Seeing what you wrote above, gives me cause for concern that you might be a speed dominant and the ball layout is not conducive to your game.
The reason being, is that if you slowed the ball down and got a decent reaction then that tells me the ball is not coming off it's axis fast enough.
It would be interesting to hear what the tape on your PAP does.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn- http://www.bowl4money.com/what.html - Visionary Arsenal
- http://www.bowl4money.com (Personal Site)
- http://www.sparesproshop.com (Staff)
- http://www.row-del.com (Staff)
Yes i am speed dominant...
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 03, 2008, 02:31:45 PM
quote:quote:
Anyways, I threw my solid and same thing, the thing slid. We didnt get it on video, but if I took a good 4mph off the ball, it read and struck.
Seeing what you wrote above, gives me cause for concern that you might be a speed dominant and the ball layout is not conducive to your game.
The reason being, is that if you slowed the ball down and got a decent reaction then that tells me the ball is not coming off it's axis fast enough.
It would be interesting to hear what the tape on your PAP does.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn- http://www.bowl4money.com/what.html - Visionary Arsenal
- http://www.bowl4money.com (Personal Site)
- http://www.sparesproshop.com (Staff)
- http://www.row-del.com (Staff)
Stephen or Scott,
Would the same apply to the IP then as the IS layout wise to get it to wanna match up better. cause both have the track going down the same area on both balls.
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on December 03, 2008, 06:50:03 PM
Let's get this post in order.
1) You're a speed dominant bowler, what is your PAP?
2) What is the layout on your Imm. Solid (pin to pap, drill angle, val angle, ball surface)?
3) What is the layout on your Imm. Pearl (pin to pap, drill angle, val angle, ball surface)?
Nor Cal...I just looked at your profile and notice the OGRE line you have in your bag. The leverage drillings make sense to me being that you're speed dominant, however, the drill angle and the val angle on those would be interesting to know.
Edited on 12/3/2008 7:52 PM
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on December 03, 2008, 06:54:50 PM
PAP TESTING:
- Place a 1x1 inch piece of white tape on your PAP
- When the ball leaves your hand and lands on the lane, the tape should remain stable, almost motionless on the ball.
- If the tape is not stable, then chances are your PAP is not marked properly and you should go through the steps necessary to retrace your PAP location.
BALL REACTION/MOTION TESTING:
- There are 3 phases of ball motion...SKID, HOOK, ROLL
- SKID PHASE - this is the first phase of ball motion and the one that works together with your PAP marking. When the ball is in the skid phase, it is rotating on your PAP and the tape is almost motionless on the ball. As it encounters friction, the tape becomes unstable and begins to move around the ball, entering the HOOK Phase.
- HOOK PHASE - this is the phase of ball motion where the ball begins flaring and core and cover begin working together to produce the balls reaction on the lane. During this phase, the new ball surface is coming in contact with the lane as it moves down the lane. Once the ball surface has stopped flaring, the ball enters the ROLL Phase.
- ROLL PHASE - this is the final phase of ball motion where the ball is basically slowing down the most and no longer creating new surface to lane contact. This is an important part of ball motion because entering this phase too soon can adversely affect carry potential of your bowling balls.
These are the things I think about when I'm ever having issues with ball reaction. Hope this helps you out.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn
Post by: bltbyj on December 04, 2008, 12:09:53 AM
Here is a shot of the Immortal Solid from last night 12-2-08. Let me know what you think.
http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/BLTBYJ/?action=view¤t=Immortalsolid.flv
Post by: J_w73 on December 04, 2008, 01:27:05 AM
quote:
Stephen,
Here is a shot of the Immortal Solid from last night 12-2-08. Let me know what you think.
http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/BLTBYJ/?action=view¤t=Immortalsolid.flv
is that yours or Matt's
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on December 04, 2008, 04:42:15 AM
What is the layout on that ball?
What is the cover at on that ball?
--------------------
Stephen Hahn
Post by: Atochabsh on December 04, 2008, 06:15:23 AM
Post by: bltbyj on December 04, 2008, 09:09:09 AM
Here is the lay out of the ball and the cover is Grey pad no polish and the front part of the lane is synthetic and the rest wood.
http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/BLTBYJ/?action=view¤t=DSC02409.jpg
And J_w73,
That is my ball.
Edited on 12/4/2008 10:11 AM
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 04, 2008, 09:17:36 AM
quote:
Stephen,
Here is the lay out of the ball and the cover is Grey pad no polish and the front part of the lane is synthetic and the rest wood.
http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/BLTBYJ/?action=view¤t=DSC02409.jpg
And J_w73,
That is my ball.
Edited on 12/4/2008 10:11 AM
Ah and memories of the ranchero
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on December 04, 2008, 09:35:26 AM
Watching the video, the ball has basically flared over most of the ball surface by the time it gets to the breakpoint. That being the case, the ball only has a ring or two of flare left to even hook on.
I had a bowler with this same problem who is speed dominant and his MoRich LevRG was drilled at leverage. He would throw it and the ball would burn up instantly and go straight.
He was able to fit into my equipment so I let him try a Frankie May that was had the pin under the middle finger and the cg just right of the center of grip (it was a short pin->cg probably 1 1/2 inches, but the pin->pap for me was 5 3/4 inches). He threw that and the ball and because of the layout it didn't start to flare until 5-10feet later than his MoRich.
On Edit: basically that means the ball stayed on his PAP longer thus allowing the ball to delay its flare until further down the lane which allowed for the ball to recover more because it could use the flare to keep fresh surface in contact with the lane. In turn, helping the ball to slow down and read the condition much better. Does that make sense?
It is the only ball he throws now and he's able to play sometimes as deep as 15 with it where as his MoRich ball he had to throw straight up 5.
Redrill option -> If you're able to put that pin 5 inches away from your PAP near the middle finger or bridge and get the CG toward the palm or slightly right of the center of grip, surface should be started at 1000, I feel pretty confident the reaction you get would be totally different.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn
Edited on 12/4/2008 10:45 AM
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 04, 2008, 09:50:47 AM
Are you talking about crestview or fireside??
I saw the ball on the rack at your shop. Is that the price of the ball or is that the price drilled?
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
Post by: J_w73 on December 04, 2008, 09:57:05 AM
quote:
bltbyj,
Watching the video, the ball has basically flared over most of the ball surface by the time it gets to the breakpoint. That being the case, the ball only has a ring or two of flare left to even hook on.
I had a bowler with this same problem who is speed dominant and his MoRich LevRG was drilled at leverage. He would throw it and the ball would burn up instantly and go straight.
He was able to fit into my equipment so I let him try a Frankie May that was had the pin under the middle finger and the cg just right of the center of grip (it was a short pin->cg probably 1 1/2 inches, but the pin->pap for me was 5 3/4 inches). He threw that and the ball and because of the layout it didn't start to flare until 5-10feet later than his MoRich.
On Edit: basically that means the ball stayed on his PAP longer thus allowing the ball to delay its flare until further down the lane which allowed for the ball to recover more because it could use the flare to keep fresh surface in contact with the lane. In turn, helping the ball to slow down and read the condition much better. Does that make sense?
It is the only ball he throws now and he's able to play sometimes as deep as 15 with it where as his MoRich ball he had to throw straight up 5.
Redrill option -> If you're able to put that pin 5 inches away from your PAP near the middle finger or bridge and get the CG toward the palm or slightly right of the center of grip, surface should be started at 1000, I feel pretty confident the reaction you get would be totally different.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn- http://www.bowl4money.com/what.html - Visionary Arsenal
- http://www.bowl4money.com (Personal Site)
- http://www.sparesproshop.com (Staff)
- http://www.row-del.com (Staff)
Edited on 12/4/2008 10:45 AM
so you are pretty much saying the ball is flaring to early and doesn't have any more flare by the time it gets to the break (dry)?
so isn't that a factor of ball surface?? just asking it might be a no
or is it .. that at leverage the ball just flares even with zero friction.
I think i am probably seeing the same thing with my ball.. there is 0 skid.. just flaring right away..
Will a ball flare with absolutely no friction and just from gravity or the forces of the spinning ball ?? Isn't this what the determinator does
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on December 04, 2008, 10:17:55 AM
What i see is the ball flaring off the bowlers PAP and immediately trying to get to it's Preferred Spin Axis (PSA). By the time it does that, the ball has no surface left to use to get it to hook.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 04, 2008, 11:22:13 AM
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
Post by: J_w73 on December 04, 2008, 11:24:57 AM
quote:
Changing the balls surface can only go so far. In this case the ball is unable to slow itself down enough for it to read the condition.
What i see is the ball flaring off the bowlers PAP and immediately trying to get to it's Preferred Spin Axis (PSA). By the time it does that, the ball has no surface left to use to get it to hook.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn- http://www.bowl4money.com/what.html - Visionary Arsenal
- http://www.bowl4money.com (Personal Site)
- http://www.sparesproshop.com (Staff)
- http://www.row-del.com (Staff)
I am pretty sure that is exactly what my AMB particle and my Immortal was doing .. flaring instantly... so there isn't enough head oil then.. ?
Or will a ball with this layout, high of differential and strong mass bias flare no matter what condition..
I think that is what I was seeing with my AMB particle..bowled with it on 50 ft US open flood pattern and I'm pretty sure the ball was still flaring right away.. maybe the volume was still too low... not sure..
didn't realize how important the skid portion of the ball path was..
I just thought the ball was high flaring and you wanted it to be flaring and that meant more hook..
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 04, 2008, 11:49:21 AM
Basically you are saying is that if the lanes were 20 feet longer then the balls would react better? How they are presently drilled are they over powering or underpowering? My guess is over...
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
Post by: dpetty on December 04, 2008, 12:20:30 PM
This verbiage from Mo Pinel may also help:
"The flare potential of an undrilled ball is dominated by the total differential of the designed ball. If the core is so dominant, does the coverstock have any impact on the flare potential? Well yes, but only a small effect and it's based upon the friction it encounters as it travels down the lane. Oil and lane types do play a part in how much friction can be encountered. So beware that one drilling may match well to one house/center and not well in another! This latter is especially important if you're drilling a ball for another facility. Hence, the pin to PAP distance is used to control the amount of flare of the drilled ball and determines what percentage of the ball's flare potential the drilled ball will have."
--------------------
Derek Petty
Ebonite Staffer
http://www.bowl4money.com/what.html (Ebonite Arsenal)
http://www.sparesproshop.com (Staff)
Edited on 12/4/2008 1:22 PM
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on December 04, 2008, 12:35:32 PM
What I'm trying to say, is based on the video, the ball is spent before it even gets to the actual breakpoint. Because the bowler has a high rev rate and a high ball speed, two things happen:
1) The bowler's high rev rate is causing the ball surface and core to immediately start working, therefore, the entire ball's energy is being spent the first 30 ft.
2) The bowler's high ball speed is causing the ball to have little time to use what energy, if any is left, to react at the breakpoint.
My honest opinion is that the ball dynamics do not match up well with your style. The only way I see this ball potentially working is something with a long pin->cg (4-5 inches) or a short pin->cg (0-1 inches), pin->pap 5 1/2 - 6 inches. My first suggestion is the longer pin->cg drill.
My rev rate and ball speed are not that high but I've seen my Imm Solid, even with the long drill pattern do the same thing if the conditions are not right (on the drier side of medium). Even if I take it to 4000 and shine it up, it takes at least 42+ oil patterns for my ball to work well.
The reason it's not moving on 50 foot patterns is because of ball speed.
Best of luck gang. I'm not sure there's much more I can offer, but I hope that this information will be taken into consideration and feel free to get in touch with me or Jason anytime your in question about the equipment.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn
Post by: J_w73 on December 04, 2008, 01:03:41 PM
I would like to see Nor-Cal's ball since that is the one that doesn't work..
Edited on 12/4/2008 2:06 PM
Post by: J_w73 on December 04, 2008, 01:13:05 PM
quote:
Steve has hit the nail on the head with this one. By increasing your PIN to PAP distance it will decrease the axis rotation (how fast or slow the ball reaches it's Preferred Spin Axis - PSA), one of a few elements of ball reaction, thus helping it transition slower or later, at a place on the lane where the ball can/will encounter friction. Make Sense?
Edited on 12/4/2008 1:22 PM
so what you are saying is that at 3 3/8 leverage the ball will try to seek its PSA the fastest ?? or will seek it's PSA the fastest when it begins to flare?
Not sure if these are the same thing
Post by: dpetty on December 04, 2008, 02:13:43 PM
Closely read this excerpt from Mo Pinel and I think you will answer your own question:
""The flare potential of an undrilled ball is dominated by the total differential of the designed ball. If the core is so dominant, does the coverstock have any impact on the flare potential? Well yes, but only a small effect and it's based upon the friction it encounters as it travels down the lane. Hence, the pin to PAP distance is used to control the amount of flare of the drilled ball and determines what percentage of the ball's flare potential the drilled ball will have."
--------------------
Derek Petty
Ebonite Staffer
http://www.bowl4money.com/what.html (Ebonite Arsenal)
http://www.sparesproshop.com (Staff)
Post by: bltbyj on December 04, 2008, 02:15:21 PM
Thanks for all your help but I just guessed on the PAP I think
it's close and I also want to know if you see the same thing when
I shoot some video at my home house I'll also get the PAP in the right place.
I knew the house I shot the video was on the dry side.
Post by: J_w73 on December 04, 2008, 02:36:07 PM
quote:
J_W73, Every ball (when thrown) is trying to reach it's Preferred Spin Axis, and the stronger a pin placement is, the more it enhances how fast the ball can reach that PSA.
Closely read this excerpt from Mo Pinel and I think you will answer your own question:
""The flare potential of an undrilled ball is dominated by the total differential of the designed ball. If the core is so dominant, does the coverstock have any impact on the flare potential? Well yes, but only a small effect and it's based upon the friction it encounters as it travels down the lane. Hence, the pin to PAP distance is used to control the amount of flare of the drilled ball and determines what percentage of the ball's flare potential the drilled ball will have."
--------------------
Derek Petty
Ebonite Staffer
http://www.bowl4money.com/what.html (Ebonite Arsenal)
http://www.sparesproshop.com (Staff)
I don't quite understand all of it..
I think it is saying that a ball has a diff that causes a max flare.. different pin positions determine how much of the flare potential is used.
does a ball flare in the absense of friction?
Also, When the ball is at leverage it is farther away from the perferred axis... so wouldn't it take longer to get there..?
Will a ball with the pin on the axis still migrate to the MB or PSA... or a different spot.
Edited on 12/4/2008 3:55 PM
Post by: J_w73 on December 04, 2008, 02:46:22 PM
quote:
Stephen,
Thanks for all your help but I just guessed on the PAP I think
it's close and I also want to know if you see the same thing when
I shoot some video at my home house I'll also get the PAP in the right place.
I knew the house I shot the video was on the dry side.
was that on synthetics or wood ??
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 04, 2008, 03:12:44 PM
quote:
Stephen,
Thanks for all your help but I just guessed on the PAP I think
it's close and I also want to know if you see the same thing when
I shoot some video at my home house I'll also get the PAP in the right place.
I knew the house I shot the video was on the dry side.
Yeah, I need to borrow the armadillo to get the correct pap for both our Immortals...
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 04, 2008, 03:17:24 PM
quote:quote:
Stephen,
Thanks for all your help but I just guessed on the PAP I think
it's close and I also want to know if you see the same thing when
I shoot some video at my home house I'll also get the PAP in the right place.
I knew the house I shot the video was on the dry side.
was that on synthetics or wood ??
First 15-20 feet are synthetics, the rest is wood. so both
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
Post by: J_w73 on December 04, 2008, 03:59:37 PM
quote:quote:quote:
Stephen,
Thanks for all your help but I just guessed on the PAP I think
it's close and I also want to know if you see the same thing when
I shoot some video at my home house I'll also get the PAP in the right place.
I knew the house I shot the video was on the dry side.
was that on synthetics or wood ??
First 15-20 feet are synthetics, the rest is wood. so both
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
so did your Immortal perform the same as Jay's or worse.
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on December 04, 2008, 04:21:11 PM
quote:quote:quote:quote:
Stephen,
Thanks for all your help but I just guessed on the PAP I think
it's close and I also want to know if you see the same thing when
I shoot some video at my home house I'll also get the PAP in the right place.
I knew the house I shot the video was on the dry side.
was that on synthetics or wood ??
First 15-20 feet are synthetics, the rest is wood. so both
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation
so did your Immortal perform the same as Jay's or worse.
Worse. We messed up on the tape for my ball so there is no video.
I had to slow up my speed for it to do anything.
--------------------
Visionary Test Staffer 08/09
www.visionarybowling.com
Looking for the following...
16# Visionary Frankie May Gryphon
16# Banger Hole Finder Pearl
16# InSite Revelation