Post by: charlest on October 10, 2007, 02:02:44 PM
Late last spring I kind of became ... disenchanted with my solid. The 600 grit cover was too strong for what I face and right away I tried 2000 grit. Can't remember but I didn't like it the one time I threw it. So I went to old reliable: 1000 grit sanded, then apply Track's Clean and Sheen which removes 400-800 grit sanding lines and puts a light shine (often called a compound polish) on the ball.
I started with this and was surprised at the relatively mild and controlled backend. It hit fine, normal Visionary: better than average, no problem, but recovery was smaller than I expected. Since the drill was a strong one for me, 4 x 3.5 (pin next to ring finger), I expected more overall hook and backend. OK, it worked well when I could use. Mostly medium oil, but nothing too long. This also surprised (and slightly annoyed) me.
I don't mind small backend balls; I like a sense control, but this was small even by my standards.
I kind of stopped using it.
Last week I ran a little experiment, sanding a different control ball to 4000 grit and using Track's Delayed Reaction (length adder, backend reducer). Iliked the reaction on that ball; so I figured I try it on another control balls: the Ogre pumpkin. So, while sanding it, I thought: the Ogre's backend is already small enough; let's leave out the Delayed Reaction. So I had a 4000 grit Ogre.
Lanes: Brunswick AnvilLanes
Oil: medium, with extra oil at and inside 9/10, house blend from 8 out to the gutter.
The Ogre nows has a BACKEND. I like it; however, it is NOT what I expected with a 4000 grit finish. I don't know what I expected. It is now less of a control ball, but still very controllable.
Even when you think you know, are familair with certain concepts, they remain "concepts" until you put them into practice.
Think I'll try a Rico drilling next; last time I tried it was in 1998 or 9 and it wasn't called a "Rico" then. I like some surprises.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: mrbowlingnut on October 10, 2007, 11:10:38 PM
It out hooked a gamebreaker and a rival they were a good 5-6 boards less ball. I tried 2k before it was pretty good on a top hat but on a blended pattern it never picked up the midlane fast enough.
600 oob it was doa on medium patterns box should be 1k in the first place.
Post by: scotts33 on October 11, 2007, 06:23:30 AM
Because of the lower differential built into the ball and say you are not playing straight up...you could develop some hang if the outsides aren't relatively dry plus in a lower grit you don't have that oomph drive of the Solid Eradicator cover kick in. In a higher grit like 4000 abralon you'd get more backend. Of course, taking into account your technique and ball layout.
On a house that has drier to the outside the Solid at a lower grit tames that over/under and flying backend. On a more blended condition with some hang to the outside I'd probably opt for what charlest has done with his Solid 4000 abralon to get more drive off the backend or a different ball maybe an IS or FMG. Of course YMMV.
Interesting observation Jeff.
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Scott
Post by: charlest on October 11, 2007, 12:54:17 PM
Interesting? I'm fascinated and still at a loss to explain it. Normally, that "compound polish" gives me an earlier and more even reaction than a 4000 grit matte finish. I used the ball basically on the same condition in the same house, 4 - 5 months later. I'm mystified with what happened but satisfied that it happened. I intend to try it in the same league tonight, for at least one game. If I'm not too upset at the results, I'll post them late tonight, dependign on how late it gets to be.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: charlest on October 11, 2007, 10:50:21 PM
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: scotts33 on October 12, 2007, 06:12:03 AM
Here's what I see with the Solid O. It's low differential is not going to allow you to swing it to a blended condition very well. It's iffy at best for me and I think our stats. are pretty close. Those with high rev rates probably wouldn't have as much of a problem. Or those with lower rev rates playing straighter up wouldn't as much of a problem. Tweener neverland is what we see.
BUT, it's also what is good on the right condition with any of the Ogres because they don't have that over reaction you see with so many balls out there.
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Scott
Post by: A_P_K on October 12, 2007, 09:41:30 AM
I'd be tempted to say bring the Ogre again and hopefully the approaches won't be covered in gunk. Even Jeff is considering polishing his Ogre so it doesn't read so early since his Gryphon was flying off the backends.
I think you might have different results next week.
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With every action, there comes consequence
Used to be known as Pin_Krusher or Divine_Dragon
Edited on 10/12/2007 9:44 AM
Post by: charlest on October 12, 2007, 01:10:35 PM
I guarantee next week I'll different results one way or the other. It was hard remembering exactly what the situation was with the Ogre. I basically couldn't bowl until the 3rd game with all the approach stickiness.
I didn't feel I could throw it to the 5 board, and have it return safely and properly, but then, as you saw, my brain was slightly distracted. Maybe I'll try it one more time. But the Legends particle balls allow me to stay in that carrydown area without being affect too much by it (NS & BK).
Tell Jeff, I think his, like my Ogre reacts better with fine sanding, than with polish. If he can wait, tell him to bring it next week and I'll sand it to 2000 grit or 4000 grit.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: Androooo on October 12, 2007, 04:56:55 PM
I use it more when I need a ball to roll from outside angles. It has more recovery than a particle, but that is the type of reaction I get.
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Andrew Phillips
The Tenpin Bowling Discount Store - Moonah Bowl
Team Bowling Balls Australia - Visionary Staff
Post by: charlest on October 12, 2007, 05:22:53 PM
quote:
Even with my hand, I can't cross the lane with the Solid. Even with a high polish, and dry backends, it will not jump left.
...
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Andrew Phillips
See above. I had much better reaction with 4000 grit matte finish than with a light or compound polish. I am still not sure why. WIth the compound polish I got a VERY controlled reaction; with 4000 grit I got a controllable reaction but much more backend, same length. YMMV
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
So I tried the 4000 grit Pgre solid on a more normal house shot. Except for one washout, one split, a 2/4/5 and a 2/8, 4 balls out of 30, the rest could have and might have struck. Every other leave was either a 4 pin, 7 pin or 10 pin (Lots of 10 pins, most of the "ringing" type, some were weak.). Missed the 1st 10 pin, the washout and the split. 3 opens and shot 601. I would say, because I saw and felt I was making good shots with good releases, that the the Ogre is not the right ball for my release, on this oil pattern, on this lane surface. Yes, for most shots, I hit the 5-7 board area at breakpoint with good speed, good revs and decent finish.
With a different ball and a smidgen more luck I could have shot 750. (should have made that first 10 pin; made all others.)
So, with that said, I will not be using the Ogre solid at 4000 grit in this league any more. I might try 2000 grit, but not until I try other alternative balls.
And so it goes ...
Edited on 10/20/2007 5:11 PM
Post by: scotts33 on October 16, 2007, 06:17:51 AM
quote:
The thing is I try to cover more medium oil conditions in leagues with solid reactive coverstocks. This is probably coming to an end because of my Ogre Pearl. The only ball I have pulled out the last 2 weeks. 674, 643, 671, 731. Not overly impressive, but I can handle that average. My timing is finally coming around from taking most of the summer off.
What this will allow me to do is concentrate more on tournament conditions with my solid coverstocks where I see more volumes of oil, specially in the heads.
I remember reading what Jason said once, he couldn't understand why people would polish a heavy oilier ball. Hmmm.... was he hinting something to us.
Wayne,
I'd basically agree the big BUT is that Visionary at this time nor are many other manufacturers making some middle of the road balls. Ogre's are kind of middle but with low differential make them kind of iffy in some regards on blended conditions that aren't house walls. Other than the Ogre's Visionary doesn't have any middle of the road equipment...mostly all for heavy medium to heavy. Yes, you can drill the guts out of this equipment but what's the point?
Jason's point is well made but there is a hole in their line-up as well as most manufacturers. Not many are making a middle of the road solid reactive in the .040-.045 range. They are either .30 and lower or .50 and up. I think, they are missing the boat but that's just me. Where are the Char. Ex's .045 of the world today?
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Scott
Post by: charlest on October 16, 2007, 05:25:00 PM
Talking balls, not Visionary now -
Your points are extremely well made. Being both a Visionary and a Lanemasters person (and for a long time, Columbia), I have had some special balls put away that sort of meet your specs for a good medium lane ball:
- Brunswick Bruiser
- Track Mojo (light load particlesin a weak-ish resin base)
Both are medium polished, medium-ish RG, with medium Differentials, perfect, in my mind for that vast middle ground of medium oil patterns.
FYI I am hoping that Lanemasters new ball, the XS Power, a solid rective, RG of about 2.52 and differential of around .050 (put the pin around 4" - 4.5" and you have a differential of .040!), add a bit of polish(stock is 800 grit matte - too strong!) and Voila! Medium oil ball!!!!
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: mab on October 18, 2007, 04:48:18 AM
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"Aye Thar Be Monsters Out There"
Ogres,Gryphons,Gargoyles,Centaurs
Post by: charlest on October 18, 2007, 06:22:16 AM
quote:
I'm seeing the same tweener hell 600/compound to early for the house I'm palying at,1000 ab to strong in the midlane,2000 ab/light compound front and mids great but it jumps off the break extermrly hard no give at all. It seems the finer I go the more I get. I think I'll take it back to 1000 and and use it for the heavier/med patterns when I see them. It's such a nice rolling ball I just want to use it more then I should be. It is fustrating.
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"Aye Thar Be Monsters Out There"
Ogres,Gryphons,Gargoyles,Centaurs
Try a middle ground: 1500 grit. (Using Track's Clean and SMooth or plain 1500 grit sandpaper). Also try a slightly weaker or earlier drill or a slightly lower pin position, with that 2000 grit finish.
If you can get this ball to work well, it may be another gem in the making. I think it could be worth the effort. That is why I'm continuing to work at it, but I need to be sure it will work on more than one condition before I'll be satisfied.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: scotts33 on October 18, 2007, 06:27:27 AM
Do you have a Pearl Ogre? That's what I use after the Solid is too much on heavy medium or heavy. Same type of ball motion.
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Scott
Post by: mab on October 18, 2007, 08:59:22 AM
charlest: I will indeed endeavor to persevere with the O.S. till I get it just right
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"Aye Thar Be Monsters Out There"
Ogres,Gryphons,Gargoyles,Centaurs
Edited on 10/18/2007 9:26 AM
Post by: scotts33 on October 22, 2007, 09:25:36 AM
I'll use the Solid at 2000 abralon very well on this condition otherwise it stays in the bag or at home.
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Scott
Post by: Badger856 on October 22, 2007, 01:07:34 PM
Post by: MC on October 22, 2007, 02:46:39 PM
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"Don't Give Up... Don't Ever Give Up."
-Jim Valvano
"Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
-Vince Lombardi
VISIONARY TEST STAFF 07/08
Tag Team Coaching success story 
Post by: scotts33 on October 22, 2007, 03:45:06 PM
I do agree with Darin's statement about ball speed/playing straighter.
Androo stated earlier in this thread about not being able to bring it back and he's high rev and high speed.
For Jeff and me it's kind of tweener hell....so YMMV on the OS.
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Scott
Post by: charlest on October 22, 2007, 06:31:53 PM
quote:
... Androo stated earlier in this thread about not being able to bring it back and he's high rev and high speed.
For Jeff and me it's kind of tweener hell....so YMMV on the OS.
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Scott
I posted what happened to me last Thursday, 10/18, when I tried the OS at 4000 grit, but it is not here; so I either dreamt posting or I hit "close window" before I hit "post reply". Here's a synopsis:
The house shot, a wet/dry with breakpoint closer to 5/6 board than to the usual 7/8 board, required everyone to get the ball out to 5 board ALL THE TIME in order to carry. I missed the pocket about 4 times (2/8, 2/4/5, washout and split) in 30 frames, missed one 10 pins, left a ton of 10 pins, 4 pins and 7 pins. Carry was not good. I even had some flush pocket hits that even I would have sworn on a stack of bibles would have carried. I know when I'm going to leave a weak or even a ringing 10 pin; I can almost always see it.
FYI I didn't pull very many inside my target; a few, yes. Mostly I hit 5 or 6 board at breakpoint (standing around 25) with my normal release.
Shot 601 with 3 open frames, which means a LOT of non-doubles or non-triples. While I suspect, that a 2000 grit finish may give me what I need on this pattern, I will be trying other balls, with more flare on this pattern. I've lost 3 weeks so far; not willing to sacrifice any more, at this point in time.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: scotts33 on October 22, 2007, 11:15:25 PM
It still comes down to low differential low flare just like BTM said in their reviews.
Wet/dry medium heavy this ball rules...otherwise you are using it as it was not designed. JMO....other balls out there that will do just as well if not better.
My example would be for posts that I see from time to time.........my Granite Gargoyle hooks to much it's rough and I can't get it to the 1-3...........sheesh it's not designed for that kind of lane condition.....get a Violet or some other shiny cover..why ruin a heavy particle by polishing it? One ball users maybe but what's the point?
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Scott
Post by: scotts33 on October 23, 2007, 05:01:39 AM
Either way the OS is a great ball.
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Scott
Post by: AdrianS on October 23, 2007, 07:16:46 AM
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Time for some REAL bowling!!!
Post by: charlest on October 23, 2007, 07:42:47 PM
I understand that a rough sanding (400 or 600 grit) plus a non-abrasive polish is the only type of finish I haven't yet tried. I suspect that such a finish needs your (Tonx) type of revs and ball speed. I believe Scott is right that different surfaces are th ekey for using the OS successfully and it is mean tto control wet/drys.
On my pattern, that finish (dull + non-abrasive polish) might still be too flippy for my lower ball speed to control on our oil pattern. That plus the fact that I don't want to waste team points experimenting (I don't get the look we see in league during practice sessions). Our 2 other main team members are also having some problems carrying, with different balls.
We get an odd combination of carrydown range/area and fairly dry outsides (outside of 5 board) that make a target area hard to find. I have some ideas, but right now, I'm not going to experiment with the OS anymore at this point in time.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"