BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Visionary => Topic started by: surface_solutions on October 07, 2012, 08:51:51 PM
-
Last week I threw my first set with VBP. I was looking for something in 14# to trade since I wasnt buying new...Ended up with a single drill Immortal Solid. It was in great shape. 682 with it. I had it too shinny to start but liked it, liked it so much I have decided to make a company change. For the last couple years I have been with AMF...well I now have my Immortal Sld and added a New Breed Particle/Pearl, Gladiator Pearl and Ogre SS. Pins are all up so Im still looking for a strong solid with pin down but wouldnt mind some help making a choice on that. I look forward to talking with Jason @ VBP about the idea of a staff position. If anyone has time, tell me about your experience with Visionary.
From what I have seen so far it looks like the beginning of a bright future.
-
I always wanted to do the test staff thing with them...everyone who throws them that i know...A. Loves the quality and B. Speaks very highly of jason wonders..
good luck with the new stuff
-
i was thinking of trying that test staff thing also
-
I have met Jason several times and he is a top notch guy all the way around. He is always willing to help and do whatever he can to help out the bowling community.
-
Visionary has a very good quality control program. If you ever run across any of their blems, you will probably wonder why it is labeled a blem.
Jason is always willing to answer any questions and Betsy is always helpful by email or phone and the rest of the staff is great too.
If you pick up a Mixed Breed, just be aware that it is a Z-spin cored ball so research the layout before drilling. There were a couple of topics in the Visionary forum here about that.
Don't overlook any of the older Visionary lines. Some of my favorites are there.
-
From my perspective VBP has lagged behind with the z-spinner issue and non-ability to bring to market good house pattern balls. I like their concept but not the way they market it. I am one who has used more VBP equipment over the years than anyone on this forum. I have had every release since start up via NIB or used and rolled more honor scores with their stuff than any. I can not say I am impressed or see where they are going. I have better luck the past 2 years with other manufacturers. Good luck to all with VBP they will always be close to my heart.
I believe it's more scale of expansion and the economy than anything.
If, I am a house bowler Average Joe I would be looking at manufacturers that bring more THS balls to market than anything else. VBP is not the company for that IMO. Ogre line has existed for years and years as well as the Blue/Green Centaur that is not even produced anymore. House balls is what a manufacturer exists on. Heavy hookers are not what a house bowler needs with 15 mph at the backend with average revs. Manufacturers don't even understand that Average Joe needs on a wet/dry THS. :)
This opinion for one that knows what has come and gone.
-
Wow, that's pretty brutal stuff. I really like the approach that they have taken. I respect the fact that they haven't saturated the market with ball after ball of the same thing.
As an Average Joe Bowler, I have found their stuff to mach up VERY well on a wide range of THS. I personally have had real good luck with an Immortal Solid, New Breed Particle/Pearl, and Ogre SS. I'm not the biggest fan of the ball reaction from the New Breed P/P, I guess I just expected more but I will make some cover changes and see what happens. Even with the slight dissapointment in ball reaction it still helped me save face just last Monday. I tried starting out with my kinda new Gladiator Pearl and that ball just hooked off the map. I couldn't control the backend if my life depended on it. After 5 splits in 9 frames I decided to put it away and went to the New Breed P/P...oh, 139 game one, and all by myself. Anyway got out the New Breed and was in line for 250+ but stone nine put me at 237. Game 3 was even better on my way to 270ish but settle for 259.
Point being, the New Breed Particle Pearl is a fantastic ball for THS. A good friend of mine has used an Ogre Solid for about 6 years now. I know he doesn't do ANYTHING for ball care and it still works as good as it did when he got it.
I'm still looking forward to getting in with VBP. Jason (Wonders) has been out sick since last week or earlier. I talked with Betsy a bit and she forwarded some info to him and I look forward to hearing from them when Jason gets back to better health.
For a company as a whole, they seem great. So far good products and good service...Sounds like a winning combo to me. All bowlers can take advantage of what they have to offer. Right down to average Joe bowler.
-
I wanted to post an update. Week two was a little scarry at first...started out trying to control the uncontrolable Gladiator Pearl and got a stellar 139 for my my efforts.
Games 2-3 turned out to be much more like I had expected. I got lined up with a New Breed Particle Pearl. Got a chance to control the mids and especially the backends and made a good run at it.
Finished 635 for the night. Not saying much for a series but considering 139 out of the gate.
139, 237, 259
-
It was another one of those nights...Out of the gates with 180. Throwing the ball well but fighting reaction. After last weeks issue not seeing the backend that I expected out of the New Breed Part/Prl I took the surface up quite a bit to eliminate burn up.
Mission accomplished...but the ball was way too strong for our THS. It's 35' buffed to 37'. Yeah, short is right. Anthing below 17 mph off the hand and you better plan on moving left. Needless to say the New Breed was way too much.
I went down to the only other ball that I had, Orge SS. I did have the cover sanded. Actually I finished it with the T pad from 900 Global. Amazing finish for that ball. Considering the backend where really clean the semi polished surface glided through the heads and read the backend well. Not a S/S as advertised but a real good alternative to short and dry.
Anyway, as I was too dumb to keep moving left game one I ended with 180. Splittng in the 10th didn't help. Even if I went sheet from the 8th I would hve ended 04. I made the ball change and a friend said quit fighting it and get in there. Not believing that the Orge SS had the abilitly I was reluctant the first three frames and paid for it. Designer spares from what was some real nasty nosey shots. I subdued to the pressure and moved in. It was there after all. If not for a couple real horrible shots...(not trusting the ball) It had the making of 240ish. Instead it ended up 214. Another open in the 10th. Game 3 was much of the same looking for some carry and it was close. Had a chance for 259 to finish the night but let my head get in the way a couple of times ended with 212.
It has been a great experience so far with Visionary Bowling Products. I look forward to rounding out my arsenal. I guess I'm looking for that all purpose ball or bench mark ball. I'm leaning toward a semi sanded pearl like a G-3 or a FM Gryphon sanded to 4000...Please if anybody reads this and has some insight I'm listening.
Recap for tonight:
180, 212, 214=606
Besides fighting the shot and getting in my own way, these new pieces have given me way more than enough chance to put some big numbers. Here's to a great future!
-
Visionary Bench Mark - I haven't really played around with all the new releases as much, but I always thought that in their older equipment, the Blue Warlock and Blue Sparkle Gryphons were good bench mark balls.
-
I just purchased an Ogre Urethane from a guy in Wisconsin and he has a few more pieces he is willing to part with. I already have an Ogre SS so I don't think I will be getting that from him, but he does have pin down Orange Warlock and pin down Scorcher NPT. The G-3 Gryphon that he has is pin up but I love the core numbers, I have good luck with higher RG med hi diff balls and I think if I do like 2000 Abralon I can get it to read the mids good and still have enough pop on the back end.
I really like the looks of that Scorcher too. I have commited to buying the G-3, now it's just a matter of which ball is going to give me the best overall playability? Scorcher or Warlock. Maybe I should just buy them all!
-
I have both the Orange Warlock and Scorcher NPT. I have not used the OW much as I just got it recently, but I think it has more length and backend than the NPT. The NPT reminds me of a urethane ball. It will hook early and gradually down the lane. It was a good ball for me on some sport shots. Others have compared the NPT to a Blue Hammer if that helps.
-
Yeah, it helps. I have been using an AMF Hype Urethane. The core isn't as strong as the NPT but if that is any judge of how it would work, it might fit the bill.
At the same time I have always seemed to have great luck giving pearl balls a light matte finish. I track really high and roll the ball more than spin it so the pearl helps me get the push I need. I think the Orange Warlock sanded and the G-3 at like 4000 Abralon or a 900 Global T pad should be a good 1-2.
That leaves me needing a solid, solid. One that I can count on no matter what the situation. Betsy at VPB sent me a discount list and I wondered about the Orange/Black Orgre. Drilled med strong, what is the word on that. It has a lower Diff than I like, (being a roller) but it seems like there is plenty of backend in this VPB equipment despite the stated core dynamics...
-
My go to solid ball is the Blue Warlock but lately I have been using the Blue Sparkle Gryphon. I spin the ball more than roll it. Have not used my solid Ogre much at all and not at all lately so I can't help with that.
-
OK here's what I think though I have moved on from VBP I probably know more about their equipment than anyone on here cuz I have just about had very ball except the newer z-spinners.
First of all not everyone is going to see a benchmark ball the same but I see it as a middle of the road in strength solid symmetrical with 2.53 to 2.57 .040 to .045. Enough strength but not uber strong. For a drilling angle, I have always liked PAP to pin to PSA of 60* which would mean you'd need an x hole on the gradient line for most bowlers. Of course this factors in bowlers stats, etc. For me these layouts tend to be rolly and arc not flippy for the most part.
Here's the catch other than the Blue Warlock, Blue Sparkle Gryphon and depending on cover change the Ogre Pearl....VBP does not have a good solid benchmark ball. All 3 I mention prior are rolly arcing balls. The Ogre Solid "pumpkin" could be with cover change but still specs are lower in total diff. IMO. It is marketed as a oil ball with it's matte cover. So, for me I would say a Versa-Max with correct layout and balls like a Motiv QZ Backdraft. My best all-time benchmark was a DT Solid Black Vendetta.
On the others the Orange Warlock is the length cousin of the Blue Warlock. Still doesn't get flippy. Guys with hand can hit this ball and not get over reaction. The SS Ogre I don't care who says it's a skid snap ball is NOT a skid snap ball for most.....it is NOT a Greenie. Maybe TwoHands834 can get a SS Ogre to flip but for most it's a control length and slight flip ball.
The NPT Scorcher is a non-reactive cover. Cover mirrors the old Blue Hammer and is very hard to change just like the BH. The NPT that I have, I have had a 300 with and can be used on a heavier volume wet/dry of some length and play a line to get it to roll off the wet/dry oil line. Not a ball the way mine is drilled for very short wet/dry.
The G-3 is a good ball and is very much like the Classic same type of cover and The Classic is a small inter. diff. y-spinner so it can be classified as a symmetrical. I'd say the ball motion is much the same as a Classic from talking to Matt C. It's again not a flippy ball for most length and arc. VBP makes a lot of length/arc balls.
Some how I don't know how you can't get the Gladiator Pearl to work on a house condition. To me it would be the closest to a benchmark with a slight cover change. You may have to move in but it will show you what's out there and carry well for most.
Another factor you have to watch on all these older balls is that they are weaker covers compared to what other manufacturers are putting out now. Some of them Orange Warlock, SS Ogre, NPT I can hit harder than some of the newer other manufacturers balls and for the heavy handed this appeals to them. I've stopped grabbing the ball at the bottom to get a better read.
That's my opinion.
-
You know Scott, we've chatted over the many years I've thrown Visionary and what you have below struck me as odd.
First....
If, I am a house bowler Average Joe I would be looking at manufacturers that bring more THS balls to market than anything else. VBP is not the company for that IMO. Ogre line has existed for years and years as well as the Blue/Green Centaur that is not even produced anymore. House balls is what a manufacturer exists on. Heavy hookers are not what a house bowler needs with 15 mph at the backend with average revs. Manufacturers don't even understand that Average Joe needs on a wet/dry THS.
Hmmmmm....last I checked it was Joe Average House Bowler who was so misguided into thinking that (s)he needed hook in a box. When I was bowling a lot I would hear people talk about new balls....and they'd come out of the pro shops with the latest and greatest in terms of hook. So it's not what Joe Average wants....as (s)he doesn't know what's best. That the pro shops job and pro shops fault for what they push. And it's what they push that dictates what people are going to make.
Second....you are not Joe Average House Bowler. Joe Average Bowler doesn't go talking about lane conditions and drilling and cores and surface of bowling balls like you do. You are in that 10-15% echelon of bowlers that understands more than Joe Average House Bowler.....but still somewhat less than what a true pro might know. Ball companies don't make bowling balls for you. After all, you are only 10-15% of the market share.
And finally.....
I have just about had very ball
Then why talk trash in the way are?? Yes, it's your opinion....but your opinion is so up and down....up and down....up and down. Read your posts.....if I go back the last 2-3 years, you've had nothing but praise for Visionary and what they've done. Based on your comments here, though you did say a few decent things, you basically dropped your drawers and crapped on them.....and yet I could easily go and find plenty of talk of "300 series this...700+ series that...balls are great this...balls are great that" over time from you.
You have to remember....people aren't you....plain and simple. I am not your level of knowing about bowling and the integral parts of it.....but I will say that Visionary definitely put my bowling in a totally different zone than anything else I threw. And I went through many older Faballs balls and Ebonite Hammer balls. Never said boo about them but those that know me personally know what I think about new Hammer stuff.......I just don't voice it often at all.
But I will say that though above Joe Average House Bowler.....Visionary definitely sits there as a viable option for a ball. I am not your style of bowler. I probably throw more like Joe Average House bowler because I prefer a down and in shot....and to say that Visionary doesn't have anything that fits that style of bowling is, seriously, talking out of your backside. Very disappointing to say the least.
If you are going to give a view, fine.....but speak both sides of that view. Yes, you do throw a couple balls out there, saving them from the proverbial bus you threw everything else under, but truthfully, VBP is no different in the sense that some balls work for some.....and some don't. That's true for every ball maker.
-
Last week I threw my first set with VBP. I was looking for something in 14# to trade since I wasnt buying new...Ended up with a single drill Immortal Solid. It was in great shape. 682 with it. I had it too shinny to start but liked it, liked it so much I have decided to make a company change. For the last couple years I have been with AMF...well I now have my Immortal Sld and added a New Breed Particle/Pearl, Gladiator Pearl and Ogre SS. Pins are all up so Im still looking for a strong solid with pin down but wouldnt mind some help making a choice on that. I look forward to talking with Jason @ VBP about the idea of a staff position. If anyone has time, tell me about your experience with Visionary.
From what I have seen so far it looks like the beginning of a bright future.
You will find many offerings under VBPs lineup, without a doubt. I haven't gotten anything new as I've dropped from throwing a lot to not really wanting to bowl more than once a month...or less. So I don't know the current lineup like I used to know it. There are some balls that you aren't going to match up with depending on your style.
What I have found over the 6 years of throwing VBP is that for my style on most house shots....I've fared 10x better with the pearls than solids. The solids have always fared well in oil and as they break down. But I've lost my fair share of 300 games with over reaction than anything else with the solids.
Pearls on the other hand....a favorite of mine to say the least. And the particle pearl gets thrown into this category as well. In my opinion....and again....can't say anything about current line....Ogre Pearl and Gladiator Pearl are the 2 best balls to carry in the bag for house shots today!!
But yes....I think you will see a good future with VBP!!
-
gsback,
I will reply with this thought about my opinion of what VBP was and it has become. At one time I was very enamored with VBP. But, as time has gone by with the amount of stinkers that they have put out starting with the Immortals, New Breeds, then the Spartan, then the Mixed Breeds. All of these had there issues with layout and bowler match up.
Add the z-spinner issue.
If you read thru my posts you will see very few glowing reports from any of these lines. All my glowing reports were from their older stuff Scorcher, Warlock, Executioner, Gryphon and Ogre lines and my all time favorite the B/G Centaur. See the issue gsback?
Add to this VBP's inability to bring anything to market in the past few years (other than some z-spinner Mixed Breeds) hence test staff members that did pay their annual $50 got very little for it. As prices went up I can get the same pricing thru my pro shop and give him the business and let him bring equipment in. So, there is no advantage for being a test staff member for myself.
I truly hope VBP continues to exist and that Jason gets healthy again so he can put more into the equipment line. I've enjoyed working with them and wish them the best in the years to come.
-
I would like to chime in and say that my experience with Visionary has been nothing but positive. First, as a company, they have been THE best bowling related company I've ever dealt with. And I have dealt with just about every single one. Mostly I deal with Jason and Betsy, but I've also spoken with John on occasion (usually when Betsy's at lunch). Everyone has been extremely friendly, helpful and knowledgeable. The very first time I called to ask about their equipment, Jason spent a lot of time with me to understand my game in order to make suggestions about balls and drilling. He didn't just tell me that I needed their newest, most expensive "miracle" ball. He took the time and went the extra mile to make sure that I would be as satisfied as I could be. In my opinion, Visionary is the definition of what customer service should be.
As far as their equipment goes, I would respectfully disagree with scotts33. In my opinion, Visionary makes the best equipment available, bar none. First and foremost, their coverstocks last forever. This is important to me, as I don't like to buy new balls every other month (translation: I'm cheap). I've got Visionary equipment that I've had for going on five years, have several hundreds of games on them, and they still react the same as when they were drilled. And my coverstock maintenance has been minimal, to say the least. I've never had to "de-oil" one. In my opinion, Visionary equipment will do what everyone else's equipment will do out of the box, but Visionary's will still be doing it long after everyone else's ball is a distant memory.
Their quality control is by far the best I've ever experienced. I personally have never had one of their balls, including blems, where the CG was off by more than 1/8" (and to be honest that was probably my weighing error more than their manufacturing). I've had more than one blem where I had to scratch my head and try to figure out what made it a blem. I've told Jason on more than one occasion that I would rather have one of his blems than anyone else's firsts.
Their imagination when it comes to core design and even coverstock material is outstanding. Use of non-symmetrical wraps to manipulate RG and differential was, I think, brilliant. The use of the same basic core in the Blue/Green Centaur, Centaur solid and pearl, Immortals and Ogres, then simply manipulating the density and placement of the caps to create the various differentials was inspired. The use of porous particles in order to allow coverstock changes without losing the particle's effect was genius. And to put a particle coverstock on a medium RG, medium differential ball to blend a wet/dry condition provided an option and reaction that no other company could match (it was a dark, dark day when the Ogre Particle was discontinued).
To refer to their latest balls as "stinkers" and allude to "issues with layout and bowler match up" is worlds away from my experience. Personally, I have certainly had no issue matching up to Visionary's equipment. I use several of the balls scotts33 lists, and have had more than my fair share of success. I'm 53 years old, have two very bad knees, only bowl once a week, and am currently averaging 236. I carry the high average in my league, have carried the high average for my age bracket in my city (a major metropolitan area), and am the defending Senior Masters champion. All while using Visionary equipment exclusively. Am I under contract with Visionary? No. Could I use anyone's equipment? Yes. But to be honest I see absolutely no reason or advantage to looking anywhere else. I believe it would only be a step down.
In summary, my experience with Visionary has been better than I had any right to expect. From every aspect, it has been simply the best.
-
I've used VBP off n on for a lot of years! I've had the Blue & Orange Warlock, Midnight, Executioners, Gladiators, New Breeds, Ogre's, several DC Tours, Gargoyles, etc... I wasn't real fond of the New Breed line and it could have been layout choice on my part! I love all of the Ogres and Gladiators. I haven't used the new Mixed Breed and can't comment on it, but have seen several people in the Arkansas tournament/Memphis area that rolled that ball really great! The Centaur line was really good and I'm a big fan. I didn't have an Immortal, but I haven't seen anybody not like that ball or have I not liked the really I saw! VBP makes some great bowling balls and I getting ready to add a few to my arsenal, now that I'm not on Brunswick's staff! Everybody matches up different with the ball companies and for the most part, I think must Joe Bowlers/THB can benefit from VBP!!! I know a couple of their actual staff members, not test staffers and they wouldn't use anything else!! Look down the list of honor scores and see how long most have been using VBP!! I've talked several times to Jason and even spend about an hour talking to John about 8 years ago about their products!! I love what they have done and they haven't flooded the market with the same ball renamed a million times!!! Just my $.02, Bruce
P.S. I've been in the bowling business a long time and been drilling since early 80's and they make the best products I've seen with thick coverstocks that don't die!!!!
-
A side note: I have drilled a nib Immortal solid and find the reaction to be a strong controllable arc with very good carry!! I drilled it pin below the bridge with the mb about 3" right of my thumb with a P3 weight hole!! Just my $.02, Bruce
-
gsback,
I will reply with this thought about my opinion of what VBP was and it has become. At one time I was very enamored with VBP. But, as time has gone by with the amount of stinkers that they have put out starting with the Immortals, New Breeds, then the Spartan, then the Mixed Breeds. All of these had there issues with layout and bowler match up.
Add the z-spinner issue.
If you read thru my posts you will see very few glowing reports from any of these lines. All my glowing reports were from their older stuff Scorcher, Warlock, Executioner, Gryphon and Ogre lines and my all time favorite the B/G Centaur. See the issue gsback?
Add to this VBP's inability to bring anything to market in the past few years (other than some z-spinner Mixed Breeds) hence test staff members that did pay their annual $50 got very little for it. As prices went up I can get the same pricing thru my pro shop and give him the business and let him bring equipment in. So, there is no advantage for being a test staff member for myself.
I truly hope VBP continues to exist and that Jason gets healthy again so he can put more into the equipment line. I've enjoyed working with them and wish them the best in the years to come.
Sorry Scott, stepped away for a little. I really don't come out there that often...so I forgot to reply.
I know you were enamored with VBP…..believe me I do. You don’t go through and spend money on equipment a company produced just to try just about everything the company makes. I know that. But I also know that you can be a little outspoken.
My point is that you are not average Joe bowler….you are well above average Joe and you know that. Average Joe doesn’t talk the way you do about bowling, lane transitions, drilling, angle, quadrants, etc. You and I both know that if anything, way back when….in the days of true Faball….there was a time when Fab was behind the 8 ball and then probably rushed a ball or two out to the market because they were way behind……I think it was probably the reactive Hammer balls that came out. Those I believe you can call stinkers and I don’t think you’d get much argument there.
The stuff coming out now is different, that’s all. I know nothing about the Z-spinners. I do know about match up issues though and I have found that especially on the newer balls, I don’t do bad with the solids, but they are too strong at times and I find I have issues with the ball burning up too early or just not reacting well in carry down. BUT…..I don’t expect one ball to handle oil, then handle carry down….and still maintain the energy to get through it all and still have hitting power all the time! Sorry…..not one ball that has one drill….no. That’s why we have other balls.
I was like you with Fab and then Ebonite’s Hammer…..as I had many, many balls they carried. I do not like the new Hammer stuff but I leave it that. I had issues with cracks on many balls, but I don’t go into topics and tell people their stuff sucks and that it cracks. I don’t like the fact that they come up with a ball a month for release, or worse. But I understand why they, like many of the others, do that. It doesn’t hurt me…..I just can’t see the need for me to go out and buy a new ball every month. But….I see why they do it because there’s a market out there for it.
I don’t care what anyone says about ball longevity…..it’s there…..it was a fact (not sure about nowadays), but balls soaking up the oil needed to have the oil extracted. Never saw that with a Visionary ball. I did with others….plenty of times. And I heard from plenty of people that the ball lost something. But I don’t go into topics telling everyone about this either. And I’ve talked at length with Jason about this, personally and over the phone. Oh the things that could be said!!
My point in the end is that if you want to help…..answer the question with what you know…and I know you have a ton of knowledge in your head. But help….don’t hurt. Your opinion is that…and it’s based on you. I will try a ball because I want to see how it reacts and will then pass judgment….and I would even try the so called ‘stinkers’ because I know they would still work for me…..because I have found very little in the Visionary line-up that hasn’t matched up with my games. Again….I will have to put a ball away over the course of 3 games…..but that’s to be expected!!
Hope you have a great Christmas and New Years Scott!! Always enjoy ‘hammering’ it out with ya!! ;)