Post by: TWOHAND834 on April 28, 2010, 06:34:19 AM
--------------------
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: lenstanles703 on April 28, 2010, 02:37:44 PM
--------------------
Len
Post by: scotts33 on April 29, 2010, 09:40:08 AM
quote:
Last thing I heard was Jason was thinking about working on a top of the line big hook ball.
Correct working on a more oil absorbing hooking cover. It goes slow Jason has said.
Only ball that for me fits under the Ogre line is a Blue/Green Centaur which is a proven winner. If, I had to have ONLY one ball on a league house condition it would be a Blue/Green Centaur.
--------------------
Scott
Post by: MC on April 29, 2010, 01:09:05 PM
I think you mean they are working on a cover to compete against the "soaker" coverstocks without absorbing the oil.
--------------------
"Don't Give Up... Don't Ever Give Up." -Jim Valvano
"Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence." -Vince Lombardi
www.visionarybowling.com
www.solid9proshop.com
Post by: gsback on April 30, 2010, 05:04:39 AM
Visionary made the React-A-Tack coverstock and if I remember correctly, the cover is still used today, maybe with a little modification. But the point is, if they make a ball that can create as much friction as a ball soaking up oil.....and get close to the same hook rating, does it serve any benefit to make the soaker cover other than to say they have it??
Look at the Centaur Particle....same premise!! Was it a huge seller??
The entry level will be interesting. I remember some of the costs for what some of the pro shops in the area pay for that type of a ball.....but that's cheap. And to make a large amount of them, which I believe you'd truly have to do, requires some machinery. However.....the benefit is that perhaps more people would have a Visionary ball in their hands!!
Based on my past dealings with TCBA members.....sadly....people don't know a good thing when they see it.
--------------------
BR.com.....going down the toilet one nugget at a time!!
g thing is back....with a vengeance!!
www.visionarybowling.com - Accept no substitute for the very best there is!!
Post by: TWOHAND834 on April 30, 2010, 07:18:23 AM
quote:
I know Jason posed that question on Facebook. But here's the dilemma as I see it.
Visionary made the React-A-Tack coverstock and if I remember correctly, the cover is still used today, maybe with a little modification. But the point is, if they make a ball that can create as much friction as a ball soaking up oil.....and get close to the same hook rating, does it serve any benefit to make the soaker cover other than to say they have it??
Look at the Centaur Particle....same premise!! Was it a huge seller??
The entry level will be interesting. I remember some of the costs for what some of the pro shops in the area pay for that type of a ball.....but that's cheap. And to make a large amount of them, which I believe you'd truly have to do, requires some machinery. However.....the benefit is that perhaps more people would have a Visionary ball in their hands!!
Based on my past dealings with TCBA members.....sadly....people don't know a good thing when they see it.
--------------------
BR.com.....going down the toilet one nugget at a time!!
g thing is back....with a vengeance!!
www.visionarybowling.com - Accept no substitute for the very best there is!!
I agree 100%. I know they have the B/G Centaur. BUT....that said, it is a $190.00 dry lane ball. We know it is a good ball. But the general public wont spend $200 for dry lanes. All I am saying is that it would be cool to see VBP compete with the likes of Storm and Ebonite and Brunswick with something entry level. ALOT of pro shops tend to sell more entry level stuff than higher end stuff, especially with the ball/bag/shoe packages they have. It would just be cool to see them come out with something entry level in 2-3 different colors like the Tornados, Slingshots, Tropical Storms.
--------------------
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: scotts33 on April 30, 2010, 10:01:14 AM
BTW....I wonder if that's obtainable? I had two Motiv balls the first ones out SX-1 and TX-1 both with oil repelling covers they stunk on carry down. Motiv shelved the idea of using the cover anymore and have gone to more soaking covers.Low end entry levels balls like Gary said....you'd need to move a lot to make them pay. Since, Visionary is a minor brand and not known as well and aren't set up for huge amounts of equipment produced I some how doubt they will bring out a low end seller. I could be wrong but look at the companies who have brought out low end.
Ogre line for me is low enough hook now that I have gotten my dang ball speed up.
--------------------
Scott
Post by: A_P_K on May 02, 2010, 09:41:49 PM
Even at 4000ab the BGC was a medium to light oil ball at best even the Glad LE is too strong for "dry".
Personally I''d like to see something like the Violet Gargoyle again but that''s just me...a nice mild solid resin very adjustable to be very versatile.
--------------------
The original Pin Krusher
Edited on 5/2/2010 9:42 PM
Post by: dizzyfugu on May 03, 2010, 04:01:22 AM
Anyway, an entry level piece could make sense - but for big sales it better look good, or be offered in various color combinations. Most entry level pieces are IMHO bought though visual appeal. I'd see a market gap for a high RG/higher differential piece (like the discontinued Power Groove), which offers beyond beginner utility also options for more advanced bowlers? But fitting such a thing under the Ogres would also be tough, I think...
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: gsback on May 03, 2010, 04:46:22 AM
quote:
But fitting such a thing under the Ogres would also be tough, I think...
That's the biggest thing I see right there. I believe the Ogre line would be around a $150 ball for the public....and at that price, that's unreal for the strength of the ball and what you can do with it. Creating a ball that fits under it might just be something that doesn't make the company look good.
Possibly......
--------------------
BR.com.....going down the toilet one nugget at a time!!
g thing is back....with a vengeance!!
www.visionarybowling.com - Accept no substitute for the very best there is!!
Post by: anorexicwonder on May 03, 2010, 05:39:57 AM
Priced about $15 less than the Urethane Ogre, I'd buy 2 or 3.
Post by: piquabowling on May 04, 2010, 10:56:12 AM
Post by: dizzyfugu on May 07, 2010, 08:19:06 AM
I think this would make a very versatile control piece, something like the PK18-based Warp Zone a couple of years ago. Open surface, and you have a good oiler, and polished a control ball on carrydown and wet/dry conditions, and it is a good choice for speed-dominant players who needt that extra traction.
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: bowlingaddiction on May 19, 2010, 03:27:48 PM
--------------------
Austin Burris
Post by: larry mc on May 19, 2010, 03:37:13 PM
Post by: dizzyfugu on May 21, 2010, 12:59:04 AM
quote:
i would like to see a new line instead of coming with another new breed or ogre or what not. I would like to be a solid and a pearl of the new line whatever it may be. not sure what i would like to hear it called. maybe a kintaur, a dragon, pegasus, or phoenix etc. as long as it isnt gay like a unicorn, sea monster, or somethin
--------------------
Austin Burris
What would you want the ball to be different from the rest? The only "space" for an additional ball line would IMHO be a line with stronger MB cores - the rest from pretty weak to strong pieces is covered well.
How about the "Manticore"? "Kraken" is cool, too... Imagine a light green/dark green/petrol blue solid with white engravings, including an octopus' eye as logo...
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: gsback on May 21, 2010, 06:23:37 AM
Visionary definitely makes some unique stuff. I honestly do feel that they make the best ball out there as well.....products that last....without all the work needed to keep the soakers rolling the same they did when you first bought them.
Fact is.....people want hook. When I say people.....I mean the 60-70% that don't understand a bowling ball, don't understand how to read the lanes, and really don't want to (or will.....as they evolve into a bowler).
The above market is what Jason needs to cater to.....the market where people are purchasing the soakers.....only don't make it a soaker because that doesn't go along with the Visionary principles!!
In the end, anything he does has to have marketing to make it successful!! Why???? Anyone remember the Blue Centaur Particle?? I don't believe it was that huge of a seller......but it'll handle any volume of oil out there!! Problem I see with it is that particle balls, IMO, don't have the same look a reactive does when it hooks...you know....those 20 boards in the last moment. But....that 60-70% club doesn't understand that!! I know....I was one of them!!
--------------------
BR.com.....going down the toilet one nugget at a time!!
g thing is back....with a vengeance!!
www.visionarybowling.com - Accept no substitute for the very best there is!!
Post by: dizzyfugu on May 21, 2010, 06:36:55 AM
Being "another" of them, probably with a rather poor standing in the consumers impression, is IMHO not a good business idea. Risky, in many ways. I'd rather see an opportunity with more specialized utilities - and among them one piece could be the big hook ball, AMB Centaur Particle revisited. But the piece alone does IMO not match up well with what VBP stands for - again, market research would make sense.
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: TWOHAND834 on May 21, 2010, 07:12:15 AM
Thanks for all the responses. As usual on the VBP forums, awesome to see and know that we can have intelligent discussions with the derogatory comments. Another reason I love coming on here. Thanks again everyone.
--------------------
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: dizzyfugu on May 21, 2010, 08:32:43 AM
OOB it was a special purpose piece - something VBP stands IMHO for, so it was "plausible". It was also never amrketed as a big hooker, just a ball for deadly soup... Much unlike the Swamp Monster, which I remember was a favorite around here because of its low price tag and the "150 out of 150" hook potential. It just needs some intelligence to chose a proper ball - and I am totally with you that only a minority of bowlers actually has a clue what a ball does on the lane, and how the many factors play together.
But that's the "target group" VBP products rather tend to, I think it is the asset that set the brand a bit apart from other manufacturers: having a sound basic arsenal, plus some unique thing like the AMB centaur, the B/G Centaur, the Immortals or the SBG at its time.
Tricky thing, marketing in sucha tough environment is not easy if you do not pump out balls that are supposed to render the former generation obsolete because the new ball "hooks more". Sad that so many people fall for this dumbness...
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: gsback on May 21, 2010, 08:33:36 AM
quote:
would it make sense for a brand/company like VBP to try to compete with the "big hooka boyz"?
That's the million dollar question!!
I do feel that with Jason's talents, he's more than capable of coming up with something that can more than meet the competition head to head.....it's going to come down to marketing!!
--------------------
BR.com.....going down the toilet one nugget at a time!!
g thing is back....with a vengeance!!
www.visionarybowling.com - Accept no substitute for the very best there is!!
Post by: dizzyfugu on May 21, 2010, 08:56:53 AM
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: gsback on May 21, 2010, 02:57:54 PM
This could be a very interesting fall coming up for VBP…..especially if the ball (a) hooks with the big boys and (b) last longer than the current batch of soaker balls!!
Thoughts?
--------------------
BR.com.....going down the toilet one nugget at a time!!
g thing is back....with a vengeance!!
www.visionarybowling.com - Accept no substitute for the very best there is!!
Post by: TWOHAND834 on May 21, 2010, 03:18:54 PM
quote:
Funny thing…..I just happen to talk to Jason this morning on the way to work and we were discussing this very topic. For the lack of a better word, as he didn’t give me much in terms of details, looks like whatever he was working in is very close to becoming the ‘real’ thing…..and will definitely make a change to the fall lineup coming up!! Again…..not much in specifics other than the fact that he has been working on a cover with as much hook potential as the "hook in the box" (oil absorbing) balls out there without using particles or using a cover that soaks up the oil.
This could be a very interesting fall coming up for VBP…..especially if the ball (a) hooks with the big boys and (b) last longer than the current batch of soaker balls!!
Thoughts?
--------------------
BR.com.....going down the toilet one nugget at a time!!
g thing is back....with a vengeance!!
www.visionarybowling.com - Accept no substitute for the very best there is!!
LOVING IT!!!! Cant wait to see what the next stuff will be.
--------------------
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: rustylegacy on May 21, 2010, 04:23:14 PM
Post by: Midnighter on May 23, 2010, 09:10:37 AM
My last statement is key to all of balls in this category. If the house never puts out a shot for it poor results will follow. Since I rode the bench for the second half I was able to observe a lot more. Too many bowlers do not recognize when the ball is burning up. Therefore, conclude the BIG BALL is a dud.
--------------------
Midnighter (BKY)
http://http://http://http://http://Visionary Bowling (http://"http://visionarybowling.com")
In the bag:
New Breed Solid
New Breed Particle Pearl
New Breed Pearl
Ogre SS
Neptune
Red Death
Post by: scotts33 on May 23, 2010, 12:10:19 PM
quote:Therein, lies the rub. You got it Midnighter!
Now if I can only find a house with enough oil to use it effectively.
Hook monsters with soaker type covers are seldom used except for players with high ball speed or of lil hand or very deep blowing up patterns on house walls.
I don't doubt the need for such a ball to keep the business growing.
House wall balls that fill the bill for me.
Pumpkin Ogre
Gladiator Solid
Ogre Pearl
SS Ogre
B/G Centaur
I'd like to see another solid ball in the .045 to .055 diff range much like the Nomad Solid. JMO.
--------------------
Scott
Post by: getuaload on May 24, 2010, 04:05:54 PM
quote:
I'd like to see another solid ball in the .045 to .055 diff range much like the Nomad Solid. JMO.
wouldnt that be the New Breed Solid ?
--------------------
TO BE THE MAN, YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE MAN
Post by: A_P_K on May 24, 2010, 04:23:55 PM
But I do know a whole lot of bowlers who would be in the market for something like this.
My New Breed has a meager five games on it and that's all I think it will ever see. Oil is sparce around these parts.
--------------------
The original Pin Krusher
Post by: scotts33 on May 24, 2010, 06:03:22 PM
quote:
quote: I'd like to see another solid ball in the .045 to .055 diff range much like the Nomad Solid. JMO.
wouldnt that be the New Breed Solid ?
Let me put this delicately I dislike the Serpentine core. Not for me. The Nomad core is a winner was used in the Silver Streaks. Three highest series in 09-10 (780, 798 and 800) were all shot with the Nomad Solid. Prefer to use a Visionary ball but if it works it works.
I do like the Ogre Solid for that space and I'll be using that more in 2010-11. I just got the new one end of bowling season.
--------------------
Scott