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Author Topic: Track Flare on Asymmetrics  (Read 4124 times)

Jay

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Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« on: August 09, 2009, 04:29:22 PM »
I emailed this to Eric Thomas:

"Do you guys at 900 Global believe that balls with asymmetric cores flare differently than those with symmetric cores?  What I'm referring to is what Morich/Mo Pinel believes, the flare potential gets lower as the pin gets closer to the PAP from 2 3/4", but from 3" all the way to 6" the flare potential is 'large'.  I'm just wondering where you guys stand on this."

Unfortunately, he wasn't able to give me a direct answer.  So I'd like to turn to you guys in hopes of coming to a conclusion.  What do you guys think?

I assume people are still drilling their asymmetrics with 4" pins and up as if it was a symmetric, but I'd be interested in actual experiences.  For example, does your [insert assymetric ball here] drilled with a 5" pin flare more than your [insert symmetric ball with similar diff here] driller 4"?

Really, anything like that which could be remotely useful, please share.  Any information may help.
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Justin
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JessN16

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Re: Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2009, 12:37:14 AM »
In my experience, pins 5 inches and beyond on asymmetrical stuff don't flare much unless you have mega-hand.

Jess
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Jay

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Re: Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2009, 12:51:18 AM »
No problem 4pin, there's always things to learn in this sport.

Jess, the same applies to symmetrics from what I read as well.  I know you have an Nkyption Code, Break S-75, and Attitude Shift  Do you have any symmetric stuff with similar differentials to compare the flare to?
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Justin
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VIXIV

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Re: Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2009, 01:17:44 AM »
This video is what I immediately thought of.

Cell Seminar Pt. 3
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Jay

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Re: Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2009, 02:53:57 AM »
I don't completely understand the relevance of that video but it did remind me of something.  Track Flare starts with axis migration.  So if someone knows exactly how the axis tries to stabilize and can explain it that should help.  I can't imagine an asymmetric doing something different than a symmetric  in that sense so maybe they aren't any different when it comes to pin position.
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Justin
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makpa

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Re: Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 07:09:25 AM »
I just drilled a new LevRG on the same day i drilled a new maxxxzone. levrg is drilled 20x6½x45 and MZ is drilled 20x5x45 on my MZ i have about 1/4 flare separation and a pretty tight flare. but still flares 4-5 inches. on the other hand the levrg in more like ½" seperation, and flares the entire ball. it is polished with rough buff and have the most amazing backend i have ever had in my hand
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charlest

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Re: Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2009, 07:45:41 AM »
quote:
"Do you guys at 900 Global believe that balls with asymmetric cores flare differently than those with symmetric cores?  What I'm referring to is what Morich/Mo Pinel believes, the flare potential gets lower as the pin gets closer to the PAP from 2 3/4", but from 3" all the way to 6" the flare potential is 'large'.  I'm just wondering where you guys stand on this."


I wonder why you said, "Mo believes"? Mo does not seem to do much based on belief, but on facts.  

quote:

Unfortunately, he wasn't able to give me a direct answer.


You did not say what your question was.
Maybe you didn't understand the answer? (no sarcasm intended)
The answer could involve some complicated physics.

If you could tell us what you asked and how he replied maybe we coudl better understand.
 
quote:

  I assume people are still drilling their asymmetrics with 4" pins and up as if it was a symmetric, but I'd be interested in actual experiences.  For example, does your [insert assymetric ball here] drilled with a 5" pin flare more than your [insert symmetric ball with similar diff here] driller 4"?
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Justin


I have a Solid LevRG (not the original) drilled with about 6" pin to PAP (pin is over the middle finger, my axis is 5" over) and the MB in the thumb hole. This ball flares in the 5"+ range, exactly as Mo says it will. If this were a symmetric cored ball, it would flare around 2". It has a rather large backend on medium oil pattern, and my rev rate is in the 250-300 rpm range, in general, average at best.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Edited on 8/10/2009 8:02 AM
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

LaneHammer20

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Re: Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2009, 07:48:19 AM »
I know what you are talking about. I take a asymmetric ball and drill it 5-5 1/2 and it still flares a ton. Take a symmetric ball and drill it 5 1/2 from PAP and my flare is normally significantly lower.
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What is sandbagging???

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J_w73

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Re: Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2009, 09:14:11 AM »
3 3/8 leverage will still flare the most but with the high differential we are seeing in balls these days a ball drilled at 5 or 5.5 pin to pap still flares plenty... I don't know if this has anything to do if the ball is asymmetrical or not...

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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
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375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

JustRico

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Re: Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2009, 09:29:11 AM »
You are talking about 2 different animals.
A symmetrical core ball has 1 determining factor in creating or effecting flare, the primary pin and the strength of the core.
In asymmetrical core balls you have 2 determining factors, the primary pin and the PSA or mass bias strength. The strength of PSA, in comparison to the primary pin, can dictate a lot, similar in using a weight hole in a symmetrical core ball.
Another factor is how strong the PSA is. If you take a core that has a lower PSA strength, less than .010, the primary pin is still going to dictate the amount of flare, similar to a symmetrical core ball and have less effect on the overall shape.
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Nickonaut

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Re: Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2009, 01:11:34 PM »
This should help....

http://www.bowlingdigital.com/bowl/node/2836


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Nick Siefers
900 Global
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Nicks@900global.com
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Nick Siefers
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Jay

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Re: Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2009, 12:54:07 AM »
I was positive that that all things being equal except the asymmetrical having a MB, the asymmetrical ball will flare more.  That's why my example included a a stronger pin placement on the symmetrical ball.  I just can't figure out if 6" drillings on an asymmetric would be flare more than 3.5" on a symmetric even if the asymmetric's MB strength is 0.005, all else the same.  Mo seems to imply that would be the case.

To me, it just seems like people disregard Mo's findings on this, so I question it.  When people are wondering what drilling to put on a VG for a higher rev player, somtimes it's suggested that they go with a 5.5" or more pin position as if that's going to help control the strength.
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Justin
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JessN16

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Re: Track Flare on Asymmetrics
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2009, 01:15:18 AM »
I went back and cataloged a few of the asymmetricals I have with long pin-to-PAPs. I noticed the couple that I had with long pins and low flare numbers had the MB positioned either directly in the thumb or in the immediate vicinity. That would put the MB around 4-5 inches from my PAP.

I've got a Track Strike Machine (overseas Power Machine, basically) that has a 5-by pin but the MB is about 3 inches from the PAP and is beyond the VAL. That ball flares more than the other two.

The interesting thing is that I have a couple of balls with the MB in the track. They flare more than the ball with the MB in the thumb even though the MB-to-PAP distance is greater. It seems like there's a "dead zone" right around the thumbhole for me regarding the MB marker.

Jess
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