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Author Topic: Color vs. CG  (Read 8310 times)

Strider

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Color vs. CG
« on: July 19, 2007, 03:53:10 AM »
I guess it's my time for a topic many will hate.

Brunswick claims that ball color has an effect on reaction, since they claim a Strike Zone and a Red Zone with the same cover prep will behave differently.  I'm not trying to argue that one way or the other.  In the days of plastic, different White Dots did behave differently.  I wouldn't doubt color still has some impact, but my guess is that it would be very minor.

My question (more to the Brunswick reps) is:  Does color have a bigger impact than CG placement on a symmetric ball?

I think Brunswick puts the CG's value at 4-5% of ball reaction (or was that the weight hole with the CG's value being less?).  If you had to put a number on it, how important is color?  Other than plastic and some entry level resins (Power Grooves and Tropical Storms for example), you usually don't get the option of different colors of the same ball.  Occasionally, something like the Red/Strike Zone or Wizard/Nemesis comes up.  If two of the "same" ball were available at the same time, would you be more inclined to pick a color for a certain reaction, or more worry about the CG placement of the ball you drilled?

I really don't want 100 guesses from the uninformed.  Please only reply if you have some knowledge of the subject.
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triggerman

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Re: Color vs. CG
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2007, 03:20:29 PM »
me thinks nick is being silly
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Jesse James

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Re: Color vs. CG
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2007, 03:41:42 PM »
Wow, guys!! Way to dig up an old, old topic!

I believe we had a long dissertation/thread on this topic in 2003.....and by majority....all agreed that color most definitely plays a role in a ball's overall reaction.

Back then, some of the balls being mentioned for comparison were Lane#1 bullet,
Battlezone Bullet, various Messengers, Pirahnas, Orange Warlocks and the like.

Yeah....this is a valid question.....with a proven answer.
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BrunsNick

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Re: Color vs. CG
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2007, 03:49:20 PM »
quote:
me thinks nick is being silly
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triggerman

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Re: Color vs. CG
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2007, 03:55:03 PM »
didnt they release the xs in black too Nick?
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BrunsNick

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Re: Color vs. CG
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2007, 04:06:43 PM »
Yep, just shortly after the White XS release. That ball flopped as well.

Just think if the original Inferno was a turd, would anyone buy another Inferno release!?
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DP3

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Re: Color vs. CG
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2007, 05:12:47 PM »
quote:
For what it's worth, lighter dyes in color pours have been known for years to respond a little faster to friction. I'm no chemist or physicist, but I'd assume some sort of molecular bond that lighter colors combined with resin cure in a different way.

Remember the Pearl Ti-Messengers? There was an original Black/Gold one and about 2 years later they released "The Same ball" in a light blue/silver/purple pearl combo. The B/S/P was noticably more angular and seemed a bit sharper than the Black/Gold even though they were the same cover/core combo. Columbia had to even adjust the length/hook ratings on them while they were in production to reflect the difference because they did not see them being so noticably different until they were already out on the market.

My guess is the same occurance in the Red Zones, combined with the Red Zones being poured in a new casting machine which makes for a more aggressive version of a Strike Zone at different finishes. The Strike Zone polished is alot smoother and rollier than a polished Red Zone(you can really notice the difference with a high pin placement, Red Zone jerks off the spot ALOT harder). And sanded at the same finish the Red Zone is noticably more aggressive in it's move.

I think it'd take a chemist to give us the exact explaination why this happens in colors, but that's also notable that when you see most oilers they are darker in color and most true skid-flip balls are brighter/lighter in color. The companies already know this.


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Edited on 7/19/2007 10:07 AM

Edited on 7/19/2007 10:08 AM



-from the b. stard child thread that lead to this.


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Edited on 7/20/2007 5:13 PM

Strider

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Re: Color vs. CG
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2007, 08:17:32 AM »
DP3,

Is that your information, or did that come from Brunswick or some other source?

I know color can influence the reaction to some extent; I just want to know how much of a difference it could be.

I still want to see someone from Brunswick provide some input.  I've seen Ric Hamlin post a few times since this started, but maybe he hasn't seen it.  I find it interesting that they will contribute reaction differences to color, but see little if any when moving the CG around (without needing a weight hole).  Again, I'm not trying to rehash the CG debate, I just wanted to know if they thought that color made a bigger difference than CG location on a symmetric ball.  I'm not planning on debating any answer I get, I'm just curious to see what is said.
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DP3

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Re: Color vs. CG
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2007, 10:22:04 AM »
That's my information first hand.  I don't think a percentage can be placed on a variable like this because coverstock  has so many different properties to it like hardness, base resin, percentage of resin/pearl/particle additives, not to mention surfaces.

It is too often we as a community find out about something then automatically try to assess a percentage of influence on the matter instead of just throwing the ball and reading it's reaction.  It's not that big of a deal.  The game is very simple and 99% of the time we are all guilty of overcomplicating the smallest things.
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Strider

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Re: Color vs. CG
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2007, 12:07:39 PM »
Thanks so much for the informative post Ric.

Actually, there are a few instances where color could be a choice to go along with drilling options or expected reactions.  There have been several recent Brunswick balls that have been re-released with different colors.  The original Inferno/PBA Inferno, Wizard/Nemesis, Red Zone/Strike Zone, and maybe a few others.

I guess what I was curious about is whether you would choose a color that might give you a more angular reaction (for example) before you chose a drilling?  From your example, it looks like a Strike Zone with a more flippy drilling might be the same as a Red Zone with more arcy drilling, assuming same cover prep?  From your description, if you want a little more flip and recovery, a Red Zone with just about any normal drilling might be a little better choice than a Strike Zone with a flippy drilling?

Like you said, there aren't many cases where it's even an issue and like DP3 said there are tons of more important variables, but it's just something I thought was interesting.
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crankncrash

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Re: Color vs. CG
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2007, 10:44:25 PM »
Well, from what I have been told by reps, the Fury was released in dark colors because it would look like it hooked more.  Supposedly with all things equal the Black Widow and the Radical Inferno had nearly exact same ball paths, BUT the Widow appeared to hook more.  Hence, in Brunswick's thinking, the next ball needed dark colors to make it LOOK like it was hooking more.  

So my educated guess here is that color doesn't "Really" afect the bal reaction, but its pereceived reaction.

JBracer2

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Re: Color vs. CG
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2007, 11:11:31 PM »
Dont you guys remember how bad the gold angle used to look. Maybe thats one reason why they make the hooking balls darker.
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Edited on 7/22/2007 11:34 AM

kmanestor22

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Re: Color vs. CG
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2007, 04:00:09 PM »
quote:
Since I have been requested or 'called' out, for a better way of putting it, on this subject or topic, I will give my professional opinion. I say opinion because much of what we believe, is perceived and will more than likely be scrutinized. There is no data or test results. Merely a few years worth of trial and error.

If you go back as far as polyester, color did make a different in perceived reaction characteristics. Also there was less variables in the buildup of the coverstocks. I also say perceived, because much of what we thought or saw, was visual. Early urethanes lended the same thought process.

My mindset on this subject is simple. When you start with certain base variables in the make-up of the coverstock, the color is one to go along with many other materials, such as the polymers and additives. If you change one, it generally, in a physical sense, has to change the final product or result.We see this in test samples to production releases. Most, if not all test balls, have no color.

Another variable is perceived reaction or motion. You can have 2 bowling balls that are exactly the same, except for color and if one is darker, it will give the perception of being more angular.

Comparing the Strike and Red Zone, the production surfaces are different, obviously. I have done one test, when the Red Zone first came out, with one of our amateur staffers, rev rate 350-375, speed 15-16 MPH and rotation of approx 45 degrees. We had both with the same layout. We took the Red Zone and placed it on a Haus resurfacer and knocked all of the polish off using a burgundy Scotch pad. The Strike Zone was then placed on the Haus using a new piece of burgundy Scotch pad as well, so both surfaces were comparable. On the lanes the reaction was noticeably different. The Red Zone still had more recovery where the Strike Zone was smoother.
Then the surfaces were smoothed up and as they got higher (1000-2000-4000), the Red Zone became slightly more angular. It was approx 2-3 boards stronger, mostly in the late midlane to back part of the lane. We used a fresh pair and a pair that had been bowled on or broken down.

How much does it truly affect and enhance ball reaction? Unless you take 2 bowling balls that are exactly the same in composition, except for color, you really will not know. The issue or problem with that, there are very few choices to test.

Also in comparing color to CG's or static weights, in percentage, you really can't. It's not like layout choices or options. You have a ball, that is a certain color and that is it. You can't go get another Total Inferno or Fury, in another color, because you have better luck with a solid blue or yellow and black swirled cover. You can use a layout or static weight combination in any type of bowling ball, as well as altering with surface and weight holes. You can't change the color. So I do not think it can be considered a perceived percentage.

It goes back to my contention, in regards to CG placement or static weights...if you feel you have success with certain variables, whether perceived or otherwise, then stick with it or continue to use it. I do not argue that it is wrong or should not be done. I have given certain beliefs, that I know to work and I use these when making a decision.
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Edited on 7/21/2007 11:44 AM


Your logic in proving pigment makes a difference in the same logic most use when stating cg placement makes a difference  Welcome to the world of logic!
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