Author Topic: Ball Flaring Backwards???? (Read 11438 times)

Kgoff · « **on:** February 09, 2009, 04:32:37 AM »

Drilled up a Max Zone yesterday and the ball is flaring backwards. Initial track position looks like any other ball I throw. Can't figure out why.
Ball is drilled 5.5 inches pin under with a hole in the thumb quadrant center of grip through cg at 6 inches. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

Kgoff · « **Reply #31 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:25:59 AM »

Rico

I was actually thinking since the ball flared backwards less after the flare increasing hole was added it did increase flare. If you look at it like math. you have a negative number and add a positive you get a smaller negative. Made sense to me anyway. I understand flare and ball dynamics, this one just had me puzzled.

los2003 · « **Reply #32 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:32:32 AM »

even if a core is upside down the ball shouldn't flare backwards though... that would be the same as inverting the pin.. now if the pin was mismarked that a whole nother issue.. if the mass bias was correctly marked inverting a core should not be a huge deal.

quote:
JustRico -- How can the pin be mismarked? As I understand the pin is located where the pin in the ball mold holds the core in place. Then the hole that is left in the ball is filled, leaving the dot on the ball that we call the pin. Could the core have been installed upside down? -- JohnP

Edited on 2/12/2009 9:35 AM

Edited on 2/12/2009 9:42 AM

JohnP · « **Reply #33 on:** February 12, 2009, 09:42:51 AM »

quote:
The reason for flare is the core is in a state of instability or imbalance. What is happening is the pin or core is trying to stabilize itself or find its preferred spin axis, thus creating flare.

This part I understand

quote:
The pin is chasing the PAP in a sense. The track is migrating towards the PAP, the pin is creating this. It sounds as if you are thinking if the pin is 5" from the PAP, the ball should flare 5" to find it's PSA but that's not correct.

Here's where I have trouble visualizing what's happening. As the track flares, the PAP also moves. It makes sense that the most stable location for the pin would be on the PAP, but for most "standard" layouts with the bowtie below the pin the flare moves the pin toward the track, which would seem to be away from the PAP instead of toward it. For example, say the layout is 4" pin to PAP. When the track flares (at least theoretically) to the pin, the pin to PAP would be 6 3/4", right? So the pin has moved away from the PAP? When the pin reaches the track it is an a fairly stable position, though not as stable as when the pin is on the PAP. Do you know of any website that has drawings of how this all happens? Maybe then it would make sense to me.

quote:
Part of what creates the flare is dependant on the core strength or RG diff and the strength of the release.

Yes, plus the pin to PAP distance of the layout. Again, thanks for yout patience and help. -- JohnP

batbowler · « **Reply #34 on:** February 12, 2009, 09:58:26 AM »

Justrico,
Let's see if I can explain my question clearly! The distance around the ball is 131/2", so if you place the pin to pap over 63/4" it can flare backwards, cause the closer distance to pap is around the backside of the ball is that correct thinking? So, if the pin was mismarked and he thought that it was a 53/4" pin to pap and was actually close to maybe 7" the distance from actual pin to pap would be 61/2" around the opposite side of the ball compared to the 7". Maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way, but it's just my thinking! Thanks, Bruce
--------------------
"Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will "BOWL UP A STORM AND BE KING OF THEM ALL" and not turn from it."
Roto Grip - Storm : What else do you need?
Bruce Campbell
www.rotogrip.com
www.rotogear.com

JustRico · « **Reply #35 on:** February 12, 2009, 03:22:47 PM »

quote:
Rico is the man! Honestly every "Dumb" Question I have asked him, he just answers it in a serious manner. Sure he may be laughing his butt off at some of our questions, but at least he answers them. Most people bash someone on a dumb question. Thanks Rico!

We all have/had to learn somewhere and somehow.

Glad you got something from it.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

JustRico · « **Reply #36 on:** February 12, 2009, 03:22:48 PM »

quote:
Rico is the man! Honestly every "Dumb" Question I have asked him, he just answers it in a serious manner. Sure he may be laughing his butt off at some of our questions, but at least he answers them. Most people bash someone on a dumb question. Thanks Rico!

We all have/had to learn somewhere and somehow.

Glad you got something from it.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

JustRico · « **Reply #37 on:** February 12, 2009, 03:23:15 PM »

quote:
Rico

I was actually thinking since the ball flared backwards less after the flare increasing hole was added it did increase flare. If you look at it like math. you have a negative number and add a positive you get a smaller negative. Made sense to me anyway. I understand flare and ball dynamics, this one just had me puzzled.

My response was not to you it was to JohnP.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

JustRico · « **Reply #38 on:** February 12, 2009, 03:31:06 PM »

quote:
Justrico,
Let's see if I can explain my question clearly! The distance around the ball is 131/2", so if you place the pin to pap over 63/4" it can flare backwards, cause the closer distance to pap is around the backside of the ball is that correct thinking? So, if the pin was mismarked and he thought that it was a 53/4" pin to pap and was actually close to maybe 7" the distance from actual pin to pap would be 61/2" around the opposite side of the ball compared to the 7". Maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way, but it's just my thinking! Thanks, Bruce
--------------------
"Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will "BOWL UP A STORM AND BE KING OF THEM ALL" and not turn from it."
Roto Grip - Storm : What else do you need?
Bruce Campbell
www.rotogrip.com
www.rotogear.com

Simply put...yes.

But if your track circumference is not 13 1/2", then your 0 number or 6 3/4" from the PAP would not be 6 3/4", it may be 6". It will vary for every bowler. When I lay out a ball and I do not either know the bowler or just to be safe, I never put a pin farther than 5 3/4-6" from PAP. It is better to be safe than sorry.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

JustRico · « **Reply #39 on:** February 12, 2009, 03:42:02 PM »

John

The pin is migrating towards a stable position. At some point it will reach if it is allowed to, depending on speed and rev rate. The distance between the pin and the PAP narrows as it travels down the lane.

If you notice when you place weight holes down the VAL, that eventually that hole becomes the PAP as it is traveling down the lane, usually around the midlane. This allows the ball to respond to the midlanes better.

Generally the path the axis follows, depending on pin height is going to be towards the gripping holes. If the pin is down, the path migrates towards the thumb. If the pin is up, it generally migrates towards the center of the holes or the ring finger.

Hopefully this is making sense...
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

JohnP · « **Reply #40 on:** February 12, 2009, 07:40:43 PM »

I'm sure it's making sense, but this may have to be something I just don't completely understand. I really don't think that hurts me as a driller, but I just hate it when I can't grasp something like this. -- JohnP

JustRico · « **Reply #41 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:19:16 PM »

I agree. I understand it mostly because I have used in a practical sense.
I just got off a plane flight, in which almost the entire flight I was trying to think of better ways to describe this, because honestly without diagrams it is hard to grasp.

PM me with your location and maybe I can work something out...
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

BrunsNick · « **Reply #42 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:37:57 PM »

here is my location

www.brunsnick.com/loc.jpg

kthxbye
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!

batbowler · « **Reply #43 on:** February 12, 2009, 10:39:04 PM »

Justrico,
Thanks for the reply and that was my thinking and I hope a lot of people will pay attention to this post when they think they want a longer pin to pap! I appreciate your input on these topics and your knowledge is invaluable to us pro shop guys who want to learn all we can! Thanks, Bruce
--------------------
"Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will "BOWL UP A STORM AND BE KING OF THEM ALL" and not turn from it."
Roto Grip - Storm : What else do you need?
Bruce Campbell
www.rotogrip.com
www.rotogear.com

JustRico · « **Reply #44 on:** February 12, 2009, 10:42:12 PM »

Bruce
Glad I could help.

BNick
Can you be a little more specific...
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

BrunsNick · « **Reply #45 on:** February 13, 2009, 01:55:53 AM »

I'm pointing right at it, Stu!!

Talk to you soon Mr. Pidasso.
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!

Author Topic: Ball Flaring Backwards???? (Read 11438 times)

Kgoff

Ball Flaring Backwards????

Kgoff

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los2003

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JohnP

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batbowler

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JustRico

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JustRico

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JustRico

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JustRico

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JustRico

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JohnP

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JustRico

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BrunsNick

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batbowler

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JustRico

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BrunsNick

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