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Author Topic: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system  (Read 49476 times)

J_w73

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Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« on: February 21, 2013, 11:43:09 AM »
Anybody know anything about this fitting technique. Looks like it is just an offset thumb. (And I know, by definition of how to measure a grip layout, an offset thumb doesn't technically exist.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX6-k7XC97s

http://billhallbowling.com/index.php?id_product=1&controller=product
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Gizmo823

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2013, 08:14:35 AM »
We have a quote from The Dark Knight that we use fairly frequently among ourselves, "If you're good at something, never do it for free."  The dual angle is a great technique, but is it wild and revolutionary?  Not really, just a lot more accurate.  I haven't seen what's up with the tri-grip yet, but I'll bet it's really great.  How much greater than other top of the line fitting techniques?  Not sure.  If it's a more standardized way to better fit people, great, there's shops out there that completely butcher fit and need to be taught correctly.  Sometimes though, I think concept and principles trump technique, or are at the very least equal.  Like listening to someone playing music, sometimes the perfectly timed music off the sheet doesn't quite get it done.  Fitting to me is a pretty personal thing, everyone's hand is different, so if you aren't sensitive to every little thing about someone's hand, it's not going to be right.  Can someone be fit well without the tri grip?  Sure.  Can they be fit better with it?  Don't know, but I would like to think Bill isn't charging 200 bucks a pop for something that's basically a different angle on something a lot of us already do.  Sometimes a technique is simply a different method of doing the exact same thing.  My grandpa "invented" the Glade plug-ins, or at least grasped the concept of placing a pack of something scented on the dash of his car when it was hot outside.  Somebody came along and adjusted and marketed the idea, and they're a genius.  Not sure whether this is the same deal or not, but we're confident enough in our fitting that we aren't going to drop the 200 bucks just to find out it's basically the same thing we're already doing.  I'd consider myself a fitting expert too, I've put a lot of time and effort into research about the human hand too, but nobody's going to pay me 200 bucks because my name isn't Bill Hall. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Impending Doom

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2013, 09:20:33 AM »
All you folks got to remember that people like Bill Hall and Mo need to come up with some kind of "new" BS every once in a while to keep their "guru" status.

Moral of the story is, if you have a comfortable grip, stay with it.  If you have an uncomfortable grip, find another ball driller.

There is no "magic" grip

Bullred, I have to disagree. People don't know what is comfortable and what isn't comfortable sometimes. As a former pro shop operator, I saw plenty of people that walked in with a "grip that fit", and I would look at it in horror, and want to give them a hug for having to suffer thru it. I would then suggest I refit them, and then when I did, they couldn't comfortably throw the old equipment. There are plenty of people out there that HACK their way thru the pro shop industry, and when I used to see their work, I would work to correct it.

Now, not saying that Bill Hall's method is groundbreaking or not. But to say "If you have a comfortable grip, stay with it" is a uninformed statement.

Stan

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2013, 06:15:33 PM »
I just purchased the system and it is not just another off set thumb.  The weight of the ball is taken off the index finger and placed in the center of your hand, making the ball "feel" a bit lighter.  I am a lower track player and this grip raised my track by over 1 inch.  There are other benefits that I found but kind of hard to explain to folks that have not tried it.

Results will vary from bowler to bowler, but if you are having problems with a inconsistent release, this may help.

Again, you will have to try it and form you own opinion.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 08:43:41 AM by Stan »

bullred

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2013, 09:42:15 PM »
Doom, because you seem to be a nice guy, and I have aged a bit since the early days of this forum, I'm going to let an argument slide.  But can you explain to your bowlers how to "set the thumb" and then "fish hook the fingers".  These two exercises are a part of ball fitting.

Getting back to Bill Hall and Mo.  Their new "discoveries" were being practiced back in the early 60"s.  We just did it with a tape and "rolling" the ball in the cradle.  They just re-invent something now and then.

Gizmo823

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2013, 07:30:00 AM »
Yeah, we already do that . . no offense.  If it helps out, awesome, that's the point of anything like this.  Again, I think it's another way, or just a standard or technique of doing the same thing. 

I just purchased the system and it is not just another off set thumb.  The weight of the ball is taken off the index finger and placed in the center of your hand, making the ball "feel" a bit lighter.  I am a lower track player and this grip raised my track by over 1 inch.  There are other benefits that I found but kind of hard to explain to folks that have not tried it.

Results will vary from bowler to bowler, but if you are having problems with a inconsistent release, this may help.

Again, you will have to try it and form you own opinion.
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Dogtown

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2013, 10:37:25 AM »
How about posting some pics of balls drilled with this technique so we can all see what it looks like.

Gizmo823

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2013, 10:56:34 AM »
Because it's not going to look any different.  It's not some different, crazy way to drill a ball.  It's just some adjusting and balancing that I doubt you'd be able to really see just by looking at it. 

How about posting some pics of balls drilled with this technique so we can all see what it looks like.
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Impending Doom

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2013, 11:55:11 AM »
Bullred, you're entitled to your opinion. We can start an argument thread later. :)

My question is how it changes your pitches. I've been using a CLT for the last 7 years, and no matter what people try telling me "I can match that with a standard T grip! It's just readjusting the pitches!", I feel it's not true. If your CLT angle is, let's say, 10 degrees, the f/r and l/r pitches are going to be aligned differently than just trying to slap the pitches that you see with a gauge onto a t grip. The hand is not that simple.

Gizmo823

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2013, 01:29:37 PM »
A quote from one of my earlier posts in the thread regarding this:

1/2 left for a standard drill, or measuring from an unmoved centerline will be different than 1/2 left on a CLT, BUT, it can still be measured based on a standard drill and adjusted for.  1/2 left in the middle finger for a righty using the CLT technique when measured from a standard drill standpoint won't read 1/2 left, it will read something in the neighborhood of 7/16 left and 1/16 forward on a pitch gauge, but given the angle and a little math, you could calculate it out.  Meaning that if the CLT for the middle finger was say 10 degrees left of a standard static centerline, 1/2 calculates to a decimal number of .500, which is a required calculation for entry into the digital pitch readout on a mill in the first place.  If rotated 90 degrees to the left, 1/2 left becomes 1/2 forward, so you have a basis for mathematical calculation.  10 degrees out of 90 equals a percentage of .111 repeating, equaling a rounded percentage of 11.1.  If the 1/2 left is then rotated 11.1% left, your resulting numbers are a mildly rounded .045 change per 10 degrees, making 1/2 or .500 left in a 10 degree CLT a converted .455 left, and .045 forward for a standard static centerline drill.  Now, .500 left of a 10 degree CLT deviation from standard static centerline isn't going to be exactly .455 left and .045 forward due to rounding, but the difference is in the thousandths, and given that it's hard for people to tell a difference of an entire 1/16 in pitches (.063), there's no way possible to feel the difference. 

So given just the drill sheet, it would be impossible to copy.  Given the ball and some tools, however, it would be a different story. 

Bullred, you're entitled to your opinion. We can start an argument thread later. :)

My question is how it changes your pitches. I've been using a CLT for the last 7 years, and no matter what people try telling me "I can match that with a standard T grip! It's just readjusting the pitches!", I feel it's not true. If your CLT angle is, let's say, 10 degrees, the f/r and l/r pitches are going to be aligned differently than just trying to slap the pitches that you see with a gauge onto a t grip. The hand is not that simple.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 01:31:45 PM by Gizmo823 »
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

bullred

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2013, 01:46:20 PM »
Doom,   way back maybe as early as early 60's,
 with the advent of the fingertip grip becoming popular it became a matter of "comfort" with the fingers hurting on the sides to find some kind of pitches to relieve this pain.   One of the ways we used was to insert the thumb, lay the hand flat on the ball and draw a line down through the length of the fingers.   This we used as a "centerline" for drilling the fingers.   Bob Strickland almost used this system to drill his  Strickland Offset grip.   This was  essientually  just a dual centerline.  Ie,  the CLT.

Brunswick patented a grip call the Brunswick Offset which was just moving the thumbhole left or right of the normal center line.

Through the years I have drilled and used everything you can imagine.  All of the so called "NEW" discoveries today are just resurrections of old ideas we tried many years ago.    After you have bowled 40-50 years you will realize that Comfort is the driving force behind most drill patterns.

Impending Doom

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2013, 01:49:27 PM »
Gizmo, this is a conversation I've had countless times with bowlers, pro shop owners, etc. It's the same with keyboards.

Look at a regular computer keyboard.

Now look at one of the old ergonomic keyboards.

The older ergo keyboards had a VERY pronounced mound in the middle to keep your hands from drifting.
Now, if you look at a newer ergonomic keyboard

That mound in the middle isn't as pronounced, but it is there.

Now, you might not be able to feel it as much in a bowling ball as you can on a keyboard, but you can feel it. I've tried to copy it in a standard t grip, and although the numbers come out the same, the feel isn't the same. Trust me, if I thought I could get away with copying what the pitch gauges say, and applying it to a t grip when I drill my stuff, I would. But it doesn't feel the same.

It's not about numbers, it's about the ergonomics of the hand. Period.

Gizmo823

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2013, 03:33:50 PM »
I'd have to do some experimentation.  It's not beyond reason for that to be true, not quite the same as the keyboard analogy you're working here, but I understand where you're coming from.  I don't necessarily debate that it can't be completely copied, but I still hold that a good fit can be originated from any and all techniques.  Given that pitch gauges only measure in sixteenths, I'd believe it could be fairly inaccurate trying to copy it, but knowing both procedures and establishing a mathematical conversion *should* feel the same.  Or in other words, just using pitch gauges and a ruler, I wouldn't be super confident in nailing a CLT drill using the static centerline method.  I would however be extremely confident in nailing it with the mathematical conversion. 

This is also why I maintain that a good fit is a good fit, regardless of the numbers or technique, so I completely agree with you about ergonomics of the hand.  That's what we base our fittings on, not angles or guidelines of a certain fitting method.  We fit your hand, take those measurements, and find exceptional success just using a static centerline. 

Gizmo, this is a conversation I've had countless times with bowlers, pro shop owners, etc. It's the same with keyboards.

Look at a regular computer keyboard.

Now look at one of the old ergonomic keyboards.

The older ergo keyboards had a VERY pronounced mound in the middle to keep your hands from drifting.
Now, if you look at a newer ergonomic keyboard

That mound in the middle isn't as pronounced, but it is there.

Now, you might not be able to feel it as much in a bowling ball as you can on a keyboard, but you can feel it. I've tried to copy it in a standard t grip, and although the numbers come out the same, the feel isn't the same. Trust me, if I thought I could get away with copying what the pitch gauges say, and applying it to a t grip when I drill my stuff, I would. But it doesn't feel the same.

It's not about numbers, it's about the ergonomics of the hand. Period.
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Impending Doom

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2013, 04:53:03 PM »
Oh, I have no doubt the math is correct. I can see that one hundred percent. However, same numbers doesn't always mean same fit.

Dogtown

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2013, 11:52:13 AM »
I would still like to see a picture of a ball drilled using this system.

pin-chaser

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Re: Bill Hall Tri-Grip fitting system
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2013, 11:42:45 PM »
As an individual I have purchased the video. I have been bowling competitively for over 35 years. I owned and operated a proshop for a decade in the past and I have a proshop in my garage where I drill for several including myself.
I drilled a ball a few days ago in my garage and have bowled with it several times. While I will not disclose the method I will offer the following
Like others have said:
1. The ball does indeed feel more comfortable in my hand
2. The ball does seem to come off my hand easier and more consistently albeit differently.
3. The balls weight is more in the center of my hand which might be why the balls feels lighter.
4. I can still "get on it" or "off it" at will.

As well, Today I have duplicated the resulting grip from the TriGrip method using a TGrip method to drill. With that said the TriGrip method of grip measuring is vastly different than TGrip and I could not get to the TriGrip sepecifications when starting from a TGrip. The TriGrip method is unique and offers a vastly different (easier) approach to determine a grip. Albeit just as different to drill.
I like it so far and I am glad to learn another method. And I am glad I spent the 200. I predict it will provide a solution for many willing to try it. And I consider it marks a significant improvement since Bill Taylors method was introduced.
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