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Author Topic: Dual Angles, whats working for you?  (Read 19391 times)

agroves

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Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« on: June 20, 2010, 07:51:12 PM »
So, I've been using the dual angle technique on my equipment as well as high average bowlers to help dial in specific reactions.  I'm learning as I go what works and what does not for different styles.

For me(med revs, faster speed, low axis rotation, moderate tilt), the sum of the angles needs to be around 100.  My favorites are my Momentum Swing, 70 x 4.75 x 30, and my Rampage, 70 x 5.5 x 30.  These two seem to give the best mix of midlane read with backend pop.  

What I'm learning is that a 30* Val angles works well for me.  My total bedlam is 35 x 4.25 x 35(too much too early) and my NSane Levrg is 50 x 4 x 40*(should have gone longer with the drilling angle b/c of the strong core).  Both of those balls are very hit and miss for me.  Both seem to be too early for the dry or too late for the oil.  However, I get the same overall hook with NSane and Rampage.  This gives me a nice combo if I need just alittle different motion to carry the corner.  

For those with slower ball speeds, I've found that 30* val angles are too quick off the friction and severely lack the continuation needed to produce good carry/blend the wet/dry(house conditions).  I've noticed that something closer to 50 to 70* Val angles give those with slower speeds a bigger window to carry consistently.  That said, the shorter VAL angles do work well, IF, and only if, those with slower speeds play the straight up the puddle.  Once they try the out and back, it expends all the energy at the friction.

For the up the back end over enders, I've found that 25-30* VAL angles with LONG drilling angles(65-80) give them the best blend of length and pop on the backend.  This somewhat applies to me, but I've drilled more than a couple for some very low axis rotation individuals.  Most of them, I've given something like 70 x 3 1/2(to 4) x 25/30*.  This helps get the ball up the lane but respond quickly to help them carry better.

I haven't had much experience with heavy handed guys yet.  I have one guy that I work with who is looking for something new.  I would think something with a short VAL, like 20*, would work well b/c it would give him a flip and stop.  I've drilled him some longer VAL stuff and he hooks it off the planet...lol I tried a VG with a 20* VAL and hated it.

I will say that my observations are made on a med to heavy oil, 40 foot THS(kinda close to Middle Road IMO) with a soft taper(not real wet/dry when they are fresh).

I'd be interested to hear from others their recommendations and experience with different styles as it pertains to dual angle layouts.  I'll post this same topic at bowlingchat as well.

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cheech

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2010, 06:57:40 PM »
quote:
will the dual angle technigue work on a ball that the cg is out of line?


for an asymmetric with the CG out of line im pretty sure you just draw a line from the pin through the mass bias.


my favorite dual angles are 55x5x40 and 65x6x40
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pin-smasher

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2010, 06:59:41 PM »
i have a ebonite magic,im looking for a layout the will give good length with a nice pop on the backend...any suggestions

A_P_K

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2010, 07:02:24 PM »
Generally my favorite DA layouts are around 40-50 degrees for either angle with usually a 4.5 to 5 inch pin.

I like to stay between 90 and 100 with the angle sums due to being speed dominant.
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mainzer

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2010, 11:28:37 PM »
For oilers I have been using 70x4x40 or 60x4x40 and keep the ball dull, the drill angle is enough to get it down lane and the VAL Angle keeps it smooth and easy to control if the backend is a little wild.

the Other one that I really enjoy is 35x4 1/2x35 for strong pearls my ball speed gets it down lane ball makes a pretty strong move off the spot but is yet easy to control, I prefer this layout over having the pin under the ring finger, with this pattern the pin is over the ring finger, I know that might be hard to beleive.
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themagician

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2010, 11:56:35 PM »
55x4x40 has been a really nice standard layout for me, adjust slightly for more or less backend, but on a ball that I just am looking for consistency out of thats what I go for.


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JohnP

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2010, 11:14:45 AM »
Keep in mind that the beauty of the dual angle technique is that it matches the layout to the bowler's characteristics better than the other methods.  So what works for me probably won't work as well for you and vice versa.  That's why I seldom reply to this type of question.  --  JohnP

agroves

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2010, 08:22:50 PM »
quote:
Keep in mind that the beauty of the dual angle technique is that it matches the layout to the bowler's characteristics better than the other methods.  So what works for me probably won't work as well for you and vice versa.  That's why I seldom reply to this type of question.  --  JohnP


It is called, "whats working for YOU".....reply away.
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pin-smasher

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2010, 10:07:53 PM »
was just asking...i have a brand new magic but the cg is a little out of line and was curious if it would drill out ok with the dual angle layout..

Doug Sterner

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2010, 10:51:25 PM »
pin-smasher....the cg being out of line will only alter the location and size of the balance hole. The rest of the dual angle layout technique will work just fine.
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pin-smasher

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2010, 10:56:15 PM »
cool,thanks

BeansProShop

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2010, 12:24:10 AM »
quote:
quote:
So, I've been using the dual angle technique on my equipment as well as high average bowlers to help dial in specific reactions.  I'm learning as I go what works and what does not for different styles.

For me(med revs, faster speed, low axis rotation, moderate tilt), the sum of the angles needs to be around 100.  My favorites are my Momentum Swing, 70 x 4.75 x 30, and my Rampage, 70 x 5.5 x 30.  These two seem to give the best mix of midlane read with backend pop.  

What I'm learning is that a 30* Val angles works well for me.  My total bedlam is 35 x 4.25 x 35(too much too early) and my NSane Levrg is 50 x 4 x 40*(should have gone longer with the drilling angle b/c of the strong core).  Both of those balls are very hit and miss for me.  Both seem to be too early for the dry or too late for the oil.  However, I get the same overall hook with NSane and Rampage.  This gives me a nice combo if I need just alittle different motion to carry the corner.  

For those with slower ball speeds, I've found that 30* val angles are too quick off the friction and severely lack the continuation needed to produce good carry/blend the wet/dry(house conditions).  I've noticed that something closer to 50 to 70* Val angles give those with slower speeds a bigger window to carry consistently.  That said, the shorter VAL angles do work well, IF, and only if, those with slower speeds play the straight up the puddle.  Once they try the out and back, it expends all the energy at the friction.

For the up the back end over enders, I've found that 25-30* VAL angles with LONG drilling angles(65-80) give them the best blend of length and pop on the backend.  This somewhat applies to me, but I've drilled more than a couple for some very low axis rotation individuals.  Most of them, I've given something like 70 x 3 1/2(to 4) x 25/30*.  This helps get the ball up the lane but respond quickly to help them carry better.

I haven't had much experience with heavy handed guys yet.  I have one guy that I work with who is looking for something new.  I would think something with a short VAL, like 20*, would work well b/c it would give him a flip and stop.  I've drilled him some longer VAL stuff and he hooks it off the planet...lol I tried a VG with a 20* VAL and hated it.



Wow, I am very impressed with how quickly you've learned what works and doesn't work for your style, which just so happens to be EXACTLY what MO explained would work and wouldn't work for your type of style when he originally came up with Dual Angles.  Congrats...
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Thought Lou Marquez came up with the dual angle technique. I may be wrong.
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Yanker

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2010, 08:23:25 AM »
There are some people who like to over-complicate things every few years and call old tech by some new marketing name to get attention. Much of the "new" technology has been around for years. Sometimes it's good to explain things in different ways so everyone can eventually understand it. I think bowlers tend to make things much harder than they need to be. In my experience, it becomes very difficult to let go of the ball when you have too much going on between the ears.

JustRico

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2010, 08:49:38 AM »
Who was it that said...the toughest course to play, is the 6 inches beteen his ears....
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scotts33

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2010, 09:01:12 AM »
quote:
Who was it that said...the toughest course to play, is the 6 inches beteen his ears....


The great South African golfer Bobby Locke

(4 time winner of the British Open) said:“The toughest six inches in golf is the six inches between your ears.”
 
Arthur D’Arcy “Bobby” Locke (born 20th November 1917, died 1987) was the first great South African golfer, and one of the greatest – and most unusual – putter the game has seen.


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dizzyfugu

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Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2010, 09:03:07 AM »
I find it so funny that a lot of people seem to be so fond of the DA "layout". It is nothing new, it is not a layout, just a different (and more precise) notation for drilling coordinates on a ball? I am astonished how perception changes things... And, yes, it sounds more "professional"
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