Author Topic: Dual Angles, whats working for you? (Read 19390 times)

agroves · « **on:** June 20, 2010, 07:51:12 PM »

So, I've been using the dual angle technique on my equipment as well as high average bowlers to help dial in specific reactions. I'm learning as I go what works and what does not for different styles.

For me(med revs, faster speed, low axis rotation, moderate tilt), the sum of the angles needs to be around 100. My favorites are my Momentum Swing, 70 x 4.75 x 30, and my Rampage, 70 x 5.5 x 30. These two seem to give the best mix of midlane read with backend pop.

What I'm learning is that a 30* Val angles works well for me. My total bedlam is 35 x 4.25 x 35(too much too early) and my NSane Levrg is 50 x 4 x 40*(should have gone longer with the drilling angle b/c of the strong core). Both of those balls are very hit and miss for me. Both seem to be too early for the dry or too late for the oil. However, I get the same overall hook with NSane and Rampage. This gives me a nice combo if I need just alittle different motion to carry the corner.

For those with slower ball speeds, I've found that 30* val angles are too quick off the friction and severely lack the continuation needed to produce good carry/blend the wet/dry(house conditions). I've noticed that something closer to 50 to 70* Val angles give those with slower speeds a bigger window to carry consistently. That said, the shorter VAL angles do work well, IF, and only if, those with slower speeds play the straight up the puddle. Once they try the out and back, it expends all the energy at the friction.

For the up the back end over enders, I've found that 25-30* VAL angles with LONG drilling angles(65-80) give them the best blend of length and pop on the backend. This somewhat applies to me, but I've drilled more than a couple for some very low axis rotation individuals. Most of them, I've given something like 70 x 3 1/2(to 4) x 25/30*. This helps get the ball up the lane but respond quickly to help them carry better.

I haven't had much experience with heavy handed guys yet. I have one guy that I work with who is looking for something new. I would think something with a short VAL, like 20*, would work well b/c it would give him a flip and stop. I've drilled him some longer VAL stuff and he hooks it off the planet...lol I tried a VG with a 20* VAL and hated it.

I will say that my observations are made on a med to heavy oil, 40 foot THS(kinda close to Middle Road IMO) with a soft taper(not real wet/dry when they are fresh).

I'd be interested to hear from others their recommendations and experience with different styles as it pertains to dual angle layouts. I'll post this same topic at bowlingchat as well.

--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com

No Revs00300 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 21, 2010, 04:11:09 AM »

For myself I like longer pin's. For whatever reason I carry the best with them. My rev rate is pretty high so I have to be careful with strong cores, as they can loose energy fast and hit weak. For Stronger core/covers I use 55 to 70 drill angles and 55 to 70 val angles along with 5 to 6 in. pin's. For most medium's I use 30 to 50 drill angles and 40 to 60 val angles with pins at 5 in. For shorter lighter patterns I use almost exclusively 70x5.5x55 with higher r.g. low diff. balls. I don't drill to much for other people, mostly myself and family.

Pat Patterson · « **Reply #2 on:** June 21, 2010, 06:15:09 AM »

I've had pretty good success with all the dual angle layouts with one exception, the one's I tried with lower degree Drill Angles. Tried on several Lane Masters balls and didn't have very good succcess with them. But, it could be different variables(too many to list). Currently my favorites on the patterns I encounter are 60x3 or 4x65 which places the pin below the ring finger.
--------------------
Pat Patterson

elgavachon · « **Reply #3 on:** June 21, 2010, 08:58:55 AM »

quote:
So, I've been using the dual angle technique on my equipment as well as high average bowlers to help dial in specific reactions. I'm learning as I go what works and what does not for different styles.

For me(med revs, faster speed, low axis rotation, moderate tilt), the sum of the angles needs to be around 100. My favorites are my Momentum Swing, 70 x 4.75 x 30, and my Rampage, 70 x 5.5 x 30. These two seem to give the best mix of midlane read with backend pop.

What I'm learning is that a 30* Val angles works well for me. My total bedlam is 35 x 4.25 x 35(too much too early) and my NSane Levrg is 50 x 4 x 40*(should have gone longer with the drilling angle b/c of the strong core). Both of those balls are very hit and miss for me. Both seem to be too early for the dry or too late for the oil. However, I get the same overall hook with NSane and Rampage. This gives me a nice combo if I need just alittle different motion to carry the corner.

For those with slower ball speeds, I've found that 30* val angles are too quick off the friction and severely lack the continuation needed to produce good carry/blend the wet/dry(house conditions). I've noticed that something closer to 50 to 70* Val angles give those with slower speeds a bigger window to carry consistently. That said, the shorter VAL angles do work well, IF, and only if, those with slower speeds play the straight up the puddle. Once they try the out and back, it expends all the energy at the friction.

For the up the back end over enders, I've found that 25-30* VAL angles with LONG drilling angles(65-80) give them the best blend of length and pop on the backend. This somewhat applies to me, but I've drilled more than a couple for some very low axis rotation individuals. Most of them, I've given something like 70 x 3 1/2(to 4) x 25/30*. This helps get the ball up the lane but respond quickly to help them carry better.

I haven't had much experience with heavy handed guys yet. I have one guy that I work with who is looking for something new. I would think something with a short VAL, like 20*, would work well b/c it would give him a flip and stop. I've drilled him some longer VAL stuff and he hooks it off the planet...lol I tried a VG with a 20* VAL and hated it.

I will say that my observations are made on a med to heavy oil, 40 foot THS(kinda close to Middle Road IMO) with a soft taper(not real wet/dry when they are fresh).

I'd be interested to hear from others their recommendations and experience with different styles as it pertains to dual angle layouts. I'll post this same topic at bowlingchat as well.

--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com

batbowler · « **Reply #4 on:** June 25, 2010, 10:35:53 AM »

Higher axis rotation need a stronger layout to get the ball into a roll on longer and slicker patterns. The high axis rotation gets down the lane easy, but it will have trouble facing up if the drill angle is to high. If you have a higher drill angle you have to have some dry board for the higher axis rotation. I can use a higher total sum angle like a 45deg drill angle x 3-1/2" x 75, which places the pin below and right of ring finger for a earlier more even break point. I also use a 45deg x 3-1/2" x 30deg, which places the pin a little above and right of ring finger for a stronger downlane reaction.
--------------------
"Train a child up in the way they should go and when they are old they will "Get MOTIVated, and not turn from it and become a bowling VISIONARY who sees a striking future.
Bruce Campbell
USBC Bronze Certified Coach
IBPSIA Certified Technician
Originator of the -35deg x 25 leverage drilling!
http://www.motivbowling.com/products/2/
http://visionarybowling.com/?cat=4

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 25, 2010, 10:48:42 AM »

I have 3 balls with dual angle drillings. Two with 45* x 4" x 50* (a Pearl and a Solid) and one with 45* x 3 1/2" x 50* (a Solid). The 45* x 4" x 50* on the Pearl works really-really great. However, although not to bad, the drillings I have on the 2 solids are not all that great and I would definitely try something different next time.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

ToiletLogCore · « **Reply #6 on:** June 25, 2010, 11:30:46 AM »

quote:
So, I've been using the dual angle technique on my equipment as well as high average bowlers to help dial in specific reactions. I'm learning as I go what works and what does not for different styles.

For me(med revs, faster speed, low axis rotation, moderate tilt), the sum of the angles needs to be around 100. My favorites are my Momentum Swing, 70 x 4.75 x 30, and my Rampage, 70 x 5.5 x 30. These two seem to give the best mix of midlane read with backend pop.

What I'm learning is that a 30* Val angles works well for me. My total bedlam is 35 x 4.25 x 35(too much too early) and my NSane Levrg is 50 x 4 x 40*(should have gone longer with the drilling angle b/c of the strong core). Both of those balls are very hit and miss for me. Both seem to be too early for the dry or too late for the oil. However, I get the same overall hook with NSane and Rampage. This gives me a nice combo if I need just alittle different motion to carry the corner.

For those with slower ball speeds, I've found that 30* val angles are too quick off the friction and severely lack the continuation needed to produce good carry/blend the wet/dry(house conditions). I've noticed that something closer to 50 to 70* Val angles give those with slower speeds a bigger window to carry consistently. That said, the shorter VAL angles do work well, IF, and only if, those with slower speeds play the straight up the puddle. Once they try the out and back, it expends all the energy at the friction.

For the up the back end over enders, I've found that 25-30* VAL angles with LONG drilling angles(65-80) give them the best blend of length and pop on the backend. This somewhat applies to me, but I've drilled more than a couple for some very low axis rotation individuals. Most of them, I've given something like 70 x 3 1/2(to 4) x 25/30*. This helps get the ball up the lane but respond quickly to help them carry better.

I haven't had much experience with heavy handed guys yet. I have one guy that I work with who is looking for something new. I would think something with a short VAL, like 20*, would work well b/c it would give him a flip and stop. I've drilled him some longer VAL stuff and he hooks it off the planet...lol I tried a VG with a 20* VAL and hated it.

Wow, I am very impressed with how quickly you've learned what works and doesn't work for your style, which just so happens to be EXACTLY what MO explained would work and wouldn't work for your type of style when he originally came up with Dual Angles. Congrats...
--------------------
You've just been handed a little TLC

J_Mac · « **Reply #7 on:** June 25, 2010, 11:55:04 AM »

quote:
I have 3 balls with dual angle drillings. Two with 45* x 4" x 50* (a Pearl and a Solid) and one with 45* x 3 1/2" x 50* (a Solid). The 45* x 4" x 50* on the Pearl works really-really great. However, although not to bad, the drillings I have on the 2 solids are not all that great and I would definitely try something different next time.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Every ball you have has a dual angle layout on it. These layouts can be reverse engineered just like any other layout...

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 25, 2010, 10:58:26 PM »

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have 3 balls with dual angle drillings. Two with 45* x 4" x 50* (a Pearl and a Solid) and one with 45* x 3 1/2" x 50* (a Solid). The 45* x 4" x 50* on the Pearl works really-really great. However, although not to bad, the drillings I have on the 2 solids are not all that great and I would definitely try something different next time.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every ball you have has a dual angle layout on it. These layouts can be reverse engineered just like any other layout...

That is true. I didn''t indicate every ball I have is or is not a dual angle layout. The topic was.... "Dual Angles, what works for you".....I named off 3 specific balls, what the drillings were and their results, so what''s your point?
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Edited on 6/25/2010 11:01 PM

agroves · « **Reply #9 on:** June 25, 2010, 11:22:07 PM »

quote:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have 3 balls with dual angle drillings. Two with 45* x 4" x 50* (a Pearl and a Solid) and one with 45* x 3 1/2" x 50* (a Solid). The 45* x 4" x 50* on the Pearl works really-really great. However, although not to bad, the drillings I have on the 2 solids are not all that great and I would definitely try something different next time.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every ball you have has a dual angle layout on it. These layouts can be reverse engineered just like any other layout...

That is true. I didn''t indicate every ball I have is or is not a dual angle layout. The topic was.... "Dual Angles, what works for you".....I named off 3 specific balls, what the drillings were and their results, so what''s your point?
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Edited on 6/25/2010 11:01 PM

Brick was is your specs? Ball speed, rev rate, tilt, axis rotation?
--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com

J_w73 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 25, 2010, 11:47:45 PM »

I like 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 pin to pap..
60 deg MB / 30 degree VAL.

Pretty much get a long pin (4 1/2 to 5 1/2 " ) on every ball so I can set it up like a double thumb drilling.. most of the time I haven't needed the hole but I have the option If I want to tweak the reaction..
--------------------
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 5, High Series 808
Book Average 220,PBA Xperience 185

Raven829 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2010, 12:13:20 AM »

I also much prefer angle sums at 100. Most of my stuff has pins around 5" and angle sums at 100. My favorite layout is probably on my VE which is 60 x 5 x 40. My favorite "strong" layout is 40 x 4 x 60 with a low hole.

Don
--------------------
"You cannot change the stripes of a leopard."
~Emmitt Smith

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #12 on:** June 26, 2010, 12:31:42 AM »

I have been using 60* drill angle and a 60* VAL angle quite successfully.

I drilled a blue/silver Backlash with 60x4x60 and a Mission with the same layout. I like both balls A LOT on our house shot on wood lanes. My Big Curve is drilled 60x5x60 and is perhaps one of the most versatile balls I have ever used.

I have a Dynamo X-2 at 60x5x40 that is very good as well although it does read the friction a little too strong for most patterns...DUH!! I think that's what Mo said a smaller VAL angle would do...right??? DUH !!

On synthetics I like my Blue Death at 35x5-1/4x75 and my Curve at 25x5-1/5x45.

--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

Xcessive_Evil · « **Reply #13 on:** June 26, 2010, 05:05:49 PM »

I honestly don't have a favorite DA layout as I bowl on multiple patterns.

However, on a ths, I never take anything stronger than 65* 5 1/4" 65*.
--------------------
www.youtube.com/c6evolution2008

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/

pin-smasher · « **Reply #14 on:** June 27, 2010, 06:03:57 PM »

will the dual angle technigue work on a ball that the cg is out of line?

Author Topic: Dual Angles, whats working for you? (Read 19390 times)

agroves

Dual Angles, whats working for you?

No Revs00300

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

Pat Patterson

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

elgavachon

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

batbowler

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

Brickguy221

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

ToiletLogCore

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

J_Mac

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

Brickguy221

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

agroves

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

J_w73

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

Raven829

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

Doug Sterner

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

Xcessive_Evil

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?

pin-smasher

Re: Dual Angles, whats working for you?