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Author Topic: Found my favorite layout! Now for a benchmark...  (Read 7248 times)

bradl

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Found my favorite layout! Now for a benchmark...
« on: April 24, 2021, 01:45:24 AM »
Alrighty! Finally figured out the layouts of all of my gear while sitting on the COVID sidelines! Now for opinions on a benchmark layout to get a read of the lanes and set me up for the layouts I like to use. And if you say that you need more info, no problem, I'll get it. If you tell me you'd like a video of my game, I'll provide it. If you tell me "screw you, I'm hungry, I'm off to the buffet!", just do me a favor and save me a seat!

First about me:

Rev rate: 420-425
Speed: ~17mph
Axis Rotation: 70 degrees
Axis Tilt: 30 degrees
PAP: 5.25 over, 1.25 up

Last 4 balls I had punched up:
Scandal Solid: 75 x 4 7/8 x 40
Scandal Pearl: 70 x 5 x 20
BW Pink: 70  x 5 x 20
Mission Unknown: 70 x 4.5 x 30

All of these are pin up. My favorite layout (if not already obvious): 70 x 5 x 20.

I'm thinking of something that won't get into as late of a roll than those above, but still have continuation, as roughly everything above will go long and snap. That's why I'm thinking of something around: 60 x 4.5 x 35 or 60 x 4.5 x 40. I'm wondering if the first angle should be lower than 70 so it gets into an earlier roll, while having the second angle be more continuous and arcing versus being at 20 and snapping.

I have an old Mission Domination/250K that was 60 x 4 7/8 x 35, which was really clean through the fronts and continuous, but I can't remember if that clean roll was due to the layout or the core/cover combo that was on that ball.

So would anyone have any insights into if these layouts would be a good idea for a benchmark, or is more info needed? Is 35 or 40 not enough for being continuous? Would 60 still be considered too long? If you need more, I can definitely provide it; I already know one of the questions is if this will be for a benchmark ball..

It is. I'm looking at either the GB4 or an Obsession Tour (if I have to; I'm trying to stay away from it to prevent overlap with a BW 2.0). Any/all insights welcome!

BL.

 

jimjames

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Re: Found my favorite layout! Now for a benchmark...
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2021, 11:20:31 AM »
Thanks for this post. In a way, it answered some of the questions I have been wondering about with layouts. I'm sure that wasn't your intended point, so hoping your questions are answered in full by all members in the know here @ our forum. So glad you posted your informative and interesting questions today. Will follow this post to see the answers forthcoming from members here that are quite knowledgeable in bowling ball layouts and what effect they have on making the ball work as intended with said drills. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 11:22:41 AM by jimjames »

Dakota1

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Re: Found my favorite layout! Now for a benchmark...
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2021, 01:06:57 PM »
Hi JimJames - Your search is very important.  All bowlers need to discover the Bench Mark Ball  and Layout.  But we need more information.  What do you average?  How many leagues do you bowl in?  Do you bowl on wood, synthetic, or Guardian lane surfaces.  Do you bowl on a fresh or used oil pattern? Each of these answers can change the ball layout and ball as your Bench Mark Ball and Layout.  Best of luck and thank you for the question.  Super Silver Coach Denny, almost Gold Level.

bradl

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Re: Found my favorite layout! Now for a benchmark...
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2021, 04:13:42 PM »
Thanks for this post. In a way, it answered some of the questions I have been wondering about with layouts. I'm sure that wasn't your intended point, so hoping your questions are answered in full by all members in the know here @ our forum. So glad you posted your informative and interesting questions today. Will follow this post to see the answers forthcoming from members here that are quite knowledgeable in bowling ball layouts and what effect they have on making the ball work as intended with said drills.

No problem at all! In fact, I'm still also trying to figure this out myself, as I'm now getting into the numbers game with layouts and how they should work.

I'm thinking of flipping things around, as what I have sitting NIB right now is:

Black Widow 2.0
Web Tour Hybrid Edition
Black Widow Platinum Silver (pearl)

I'm thinking about making the Web Tour Hybrid the benchmark piece as it could give a good read of the lanes, and then could keep that same benchmark layout on a GB4 (with it being a solid) and off to the races I go. I could keep the pearls at the same 70 x 5 x 20 layout because I'd use those to go long when I'm on the burn, as anything more solid would check early then roll out.

That leaves me with what to do with the BW 2.0. In talking to a friend of mine who is on staff with DV8, he's noticing I don't have anything that is rolling and continuous (which brought me to this thread anyway), and suggested that I do something pin down with the BW 2.0. That would mean kicking both angles out high, with something like a 60 x 4.5 x 70 layout.. Last time I did that was with a First Blood, which caused me to only use that ball going straight up the boards/down and in.. and the funny thing is that when I laid out the ball with that (markings only), it still left me pin up, so I'll have to see the pro shop about that.

What will probably end up happening is that the benchmark layout will become the favorite layout, then branch off to pin up and pin down.. which was what I was hoping to get away from, by trying to standardize on a single layout (or no more than two), then just go with surface adjustments from there.

Either way, I'm still wondering if the 60 x 4.5 x 35 will be a good layout to try, and if so, on the Web Tour Hybrid Edition versus a GB4...

BL.

ignitebowling

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Re: Found my favorite layout! Now for a benchmark...
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2021, 05:56:08 PM »
Pin up or down will not matter.  Pin to pap is the bigger factor in the reaction you are going to see.  Kicking the mb out towards your val by going with a 40 or 45 drill angle will help get the ball to rev up sooner.  Mo talks about this with his "spin to win line" in some of his videos. Going with a pin to pap closer to 4" will get the ball to slow down sooner and depending on the surface smooth out it's response to friction vs a 5" pin.

In the video below at the 2:54 mark you see pin up vs down for a 4.5" pin to pap ball for a 425 rev rate bowler.

Ignite your game, and set the lanes on fire. www.facebook.com/ignitebowling  or @ignite_bowling

TWOHAND834

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Re: Found my favorite layout! Now for a benchmark...
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2021, 08:29:05 AM »
Thanks for this post. In a way, it answered some of the questions I have been wondering about with layouts. I'm sure that wasn't your intended point, so hoping your questions are answered in full by all members in the know here @ our forum. So glad you posted your informative and interesting questions today. Will follow this post to see the answers forthcoming from members here that are quite knowledgeable in bowling ball layouts and what effect they have on making the ball work as intended with said drills.

No problem at all! In fact, I'm still also trying to figure this out myself, as I'm now getting into the numbers game with layouts and how they should work.

I'm thinking of flipping things around, as what I have sitting NIB right now is:

Black Widow 2.0
Web Tour Hybrid Edition
Black Widow Platinum Silver (pearl)

I'm thinking about making the Web Tour Hybrid the benchmark piece as it could give a good read of the lanes, and then could keep that same benchmark layout on a GB4 (with it being a solid) and off to the races I go. I could keep the pearls at the same 70 x 5 x 20 layout because I'd use those to go long when I'm on the burn, as anything more solid would check early then roll out.

That leaves me with what to do with the BW 2.0. In talking to a friend of mine who is on staff with DV8, he's noticing I don't have anything that is rolling and continuous (which brought me to this thread anyway), and suggested that I do something pin down with the BW 2.0. That would mean kicking both angles out high, with something like a 60 x 4.5 x 70 layout.. Last time I did that was with a First Blood, which caused me to only use that ball going straight up the boards/down and in.. and the funny thing is that when I laid out the ball with that (markings only), it still left me pin up, so I'll have to see the pro shop about that.

What will probably end up happening is that the benchmark layout will become the favorite layout, then branch off to pin up and pin down.. which was what I was hoping to get away from, by trying to standardize on a single layout (or no more than two), then just go with surface adjustments from there.

Either way, I'm still wondering if the 60 x 4.5 x 35 will be a good layout to try, and if so, on the Web Tour Hybrid Edition versus a GB4...

BL.


Watching a lot of JR Raymond's videos, his has his benchmark layout as 45 x 4.5 x 45.  Ronald Hickland lists ball reactions on symmetrcals as listed below:

Angular - 45 x 5 x 30
Continuous - 45 x 4 x 30
Traction - 45 x 3 3/8 x 30
Straight - 90 x 1/2 x 60

Based on that information, I would go with either the 45 x 4.5 x 45 or the happy medium between the angular and continuous layouts from Ronald and go 45 x 4.5 x 30.  If it were me and you want to get away from the flippy side and want to create some separation, I would go with the 45 x 4.5 x 45 and then adjust the cover as needed.
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

bradl

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Re: Found my favorite layout! Now for a benchmark...
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2021, 05:16:56 PM »
Hi JimJames - Your search is very important.  All bowlers need to discover the Bench Mark Ball  and Layout.  But we need more information.  What do you average?  How many leagues do you bowl in?  Do you bowl on wood, synthetic, or Guardian lane surfaces.  Do you bowl on a fresh or used oil pattern? Each of these answers can change the ball layout and ball as your Bench Mark Ball and Layout.  Best of luck and thank you for the question.  Super Silver Coach Denny, almost Gold Level.

I know you're probably asking this of me as well, and I should have mentioned that as well.

I'm a 210-215 average bowler, mainly on synthetic lanes. However, both alleys I bowl at just did a rip and replace of every lane they have. One alley went from Guardian to Pro-Anvil, while the other went from Guardian to HPL. Last time I bowled on wood would have been about 25 years ago.

The house with HPL is a Bowlero, which still aren't open (only the independents are open here), so for the time being I'm at the house that has Pro-Anvil.


Watching a lot of JR Raymond's videos, his has his benchmark layout as 45 x 4.5 x 45.  Ronald Hickland lists ball reactions on symmetrcals as listed below:

Angular - 45 x 5 x 30
Continuous - 45 x 4 x 30
Traction - 45 x 3 3/8 x 30
Straight - 90 x 1/2 x 60

Based on that information, I would go with either the 45 x 4.5 x 45 or the happy medium between the angular and continuous layouts from Ronald and go 45 x 4.5 x 30.  If it were me and you want to get away from the flippy side and want to create some separation, I would go with the 45 x 4.5 x 45 and then adjust the cover as needed.

I've been watching a lot of JR's videos, and roughly everything from CTD over the past 5 months. That's how I've been learning the numbers when it comes to layouts and what those numbers mean, as well as why pin length from Center of Gravity no longer matters. Where it's getting me is how I'm trying so hard to just standardize on a single layout and letting surface adjustments handle everything else, but I think I may rethink that altogether, which I'm completely open to doing.

Instead I can have that benchmark layout, get the read of the lane, then go up from there to that 70 x 5 x 20 or similar with the pearls to get down the lane (should the lanes call for it), or something more rolling to get through the soup (again, should the lanes call for it).

Confusing me even more, JR just posted a video of him throwing the GB4 and comparing it against the Honey Badger Intensity, with both at 45 x 5 x 75. I was expecting a midlane read, and smoother yet angular off the spot, but not like that... Wow..


BL.

bradl

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Re: Found my favorite layout! Now for a benchmark...
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2021, 06:31:59 PM »
I believe I have it figured out. And as usual, I was kinda overthinking it but not really overthinking it.

I had the right idea of trying to standardize my layouts to a single layout and use surface adjustments as needed. What was getting me was that I was simply trying to standardize on a single layout altogether, which was my favorite layout, and build up form that. Normally, that isn't a bad thing. What was bad about it, though, was that that single layout would give me the same shape for whatever ball I had, which is not a good thing when facing any sport or difficult shot.

So after talking to a PSO about this, what I am doing is:
  • having a benchmark layout to get a read of the lanes (again, a good thing),
  • having a favorite pin down/continuous layout, and
  • having a favorite pin up/angular (read: skid/flip) layout for wheeling it.

The other thing that was confusing me was how to fit in something that may give me overlap, since I would have two balls that could serve as that benchmark piece. Splitting the layouts out to 3 helps with that. With that...

  • First ball out is going to be the benchmark ball, which will be the Web Tour Hybrid, at 60 x 4.5 x 35. Earlier read, with the traction. That sets me up for getting a good gauge of the lanes. If the back ends can't be controlled,
  • Second ball will be the GB4, at 60 x 4.5 x 75. That puts me pin down, good length, but with continuation. The cover of this ball will help with that, as long as I keep it up and get the lane shine off the ball if I need. If the lanes open up or back ends are flying,
  • Third ball will be the BW 2.0, at 70 x 4.5 x 30. Widow shape. That is all. Now, with this being the solid, this would also mean that I'd have to get through the puddle in the heads for that to work. But it's a Widow so that's easy. If the heads are gone,
  • Last ball will be a BW Platinum Silver/BW Pink, also at 70 x 4.5 x 30. The BW Pink I was saving for my daughter as she wants that ball, and the Platinum Silver is a stronger BW Pink, so I can use that to get down the lane and be angular at the backend.

So that gets me my benchmark layout, pin up layout, and pin down layout. After that, I'm surface adjustments, ball maintenance, and possibly pitch from here on out.

Thanks for the help on this, everyone!

BL.

TWOHAND834

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Re: Found my favorite layout! Now for a benchmark...
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2021, 07:20:06 AM »
When JR was doing his video, the ball was definitely better when he was going straighter through the front part of the lane.  As he started to belly the ball, even though the ball would hit flush you could definitely tell where the ball started to labor. 

The Intensity comes OOB at 4000 whereas the GB4 comes in at 1500.  So obviously the Intensity looked better from deeper angles.  But I bet if you took the GB4 to 4000 and did a direct comparison, you would notice the balls much closer in reaction and continuation from those deeper angles.  Plus, the Intensity has a higher RG by a significant margin so another reason you see better response down lane from deeper angle. 
Steven Vance
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Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

SVstar34

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Re: Found my favorite layout! Now for a benchmark...
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2021, 01:40:45 PM »
Normally, that isn't a bad thing. What was bad about it, though, was that that single layout would give me the same shape for whatever ball I had, which is not a good thing when facing any sport or difficult shot.

I'll actually disagree with this comment. If you're using similar strength balls then yes that can be possible. I'm a believer in core shape dictates motion and then cover/surface prep dictate where the motion occurs.

Right now I have 4 balls with the same layout and they all have different shapes/motion

All drilled 4x4x2 which is approximately 45 x 4 x 30 for me
Hammer Obsession (strong defined category or 1 ball depending on who's system you use)
Ebonite GB4 (2 ball, strong benchmark, weaker and smoother than the Obsession)
900G Money Badger (lots of length, not a big change of direction)
Motiv Tag Cannon (quicker transition than the Money Badger)

The GB4 and Obsession alone can generally cover the first 4-6 games for me unless it's a lower volume pattern.

I've got an Obsession Tour that I'll drill this week with a short pin layout to be a "urethane-like" reaction and I'll probably add something like a Proof Hybrid eventually off closeout with a pin down layout. I bowl sport league and at least 1 tournament a month here in So Cal and I feel like I'll have 6 that will cover pretty much anything I run into. There's some centers with higher friction surfaces but they usually go with higher volume patterns to offset the friction.

bradl

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Re: Found my favorite layout! Now for a benchmark...
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2021, 05:24:41 PM »
When JR was doing his video, the ball was definitely better when he was going straighter through the front part of the lane.  As he started to belly the ball, even though the ball would hit flush you could definitely tell where the ball started to labor. 

I agree. When he started to get deflection off the 5 pin you could see where he was running into trouble. But I was just more surprised with the continuation it had with having such a high VAL angle. I would have expected that from a 20 to 40 degree VAL angle, but not from 75. That's what got me.

Quote

The Intensity comes OOB at 4000 whereas the GB4 comes in at 1500.  So obviously the Intensity looked better from deeper angles.  But I bet if you took the GB4 to 4000 and did a direct comparison, you would notice the balls much closer in reaction and continuation from those deeper angles.  Plus, the Intensity has a higher RG by a significant margin so another reason you see better response down lane from deeper angle.

That makes sense now given that info, along with the fact that there are different cores as well as the Intensity being an asym ball. But for that type of continuation out of a symmetrical piece tells me how well the GB4 is.. Not that it has to do it with steep/sharp angles, but the fact that that continuation was still there the farther JR moved left until he saw that deflection. I mean, that messenger 10 carried, but wasn't a good reaction at the pins despite that he threw it good. Because he has that VAL angle that high, the ball will have its limits; however, I could see getting another one with a stronger/angular layout and get a different reaction from it outright.


I'll actually disagree with this comment. If you're using similar strength balls then yes that can be possible. I'm a believer in core shape dictates motion and then cover/surface prep dictate where the motion occurs.

I agree with that. However, you kinda proved where I'm at right now, because the balls I have to go off of have the same core, with only the covers being different. So I'm getting the same shape.

Quote
Right now I have 4 balls with the same layout and they all have different shapes/motion

All drilled 4x4x2 which is approximately 45 x 4 x 30 for me
Hammer Obsession (strong defined category or 1 ball depending on who's system you use)
Ebonite GB4 (2 ball, strong benchmark, weaker and smoother than the Obsession)
900G Money Badger (lots of length, not a big change of direction)
Motiv Tag Cannon (quicker transition than the Money Badger)

The GB4 and Obsession alone can generally cover the first 4-6 games for me unless it's a lower volume pattern.

I've got an Obsession Tour that I'll drill this week with a short pin layout to be a "urethane-like" reaction and I'll probably add something like a Proof Hybrid eventually off closeout with a pin down layout. I bowl sport league and at least 1 tournament a month here in So Cal and I feel like I'll have 6 that will cover pretty much anything I run into. There's some centers with higher friction surfaces but they usually go with higher volume patterns to offset the friction.

I'd be interested to see how that Obsession Tour works out for you as well as that GB4,  especially on those higher friction lanes. I'm wondering if those are HPL lanes. If so, you've given me something to test out as soon as Bowlero opens up again.

BL.