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Author Topic: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?  (Read 28698 times)

mumzie

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Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« on: December 21, 2003, 05:39:48 AM »
I get soooo confused - pin in or out cg in, or kicked. PAP, 4x8, etc.

Is there one place to go that would have all the info?

Pin in means blah. Causes the ball to do this...
Pin out means blah blah. Causes the ball to do that.
CG in means...
CG out means...
How to measure PAP?
Where to put a weight hole for different effects

And so on.
I can figure out that one layout does something different than another (duh), but when someone asks me how I want a ball laid out, I don't have a clue where to start.
When would I ask for a pin in ball? pin out? more top weight? less?

You get the idea.
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TheBowlingKid25

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #91 on: July 20, 2004, 04:52:28 PM »
I have to say this is one of the longest running posts I've ever seen on here.
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16 years and still going strong! 16 years old that is! The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior Princess
And why would I "saw" pins in half, THATS A WASTE OF PINS!

mrspare

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #92 on: July 21, 2004, 09:33:08 AM »
Never seen a post like this in anywhere in the web . Luckylefty, you're really the great .
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MrSpare
MrSpare

Borincano

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #93 on: August 04, 2004, 01:36:02 PM »
See if this helps

Just recently finished driving 3000 miles,
to beautiful upstate NY and back.
I told my girlfriend I wanted to go with her!
Yeah, Sort of! But also it was a trek, to find ball drillers who did Center Line transfer. (I've got my priorities straight! right?).
In search of Brian Omara who drills for the Dick Ritger schools in Ithaca NY but I just had such a booked schedule that even though he made time for me I had to fit in a 6:00 am meeting with a guy named Joe Moore at AMF Williamsburg bowl. (Nice guy, obviously very hard working, and his shop name is Bowling Techniques).
Joe, I'd heard was also an expert in CLT. He said I had a hand that was very appropriate for it. (Over 5 degrees of twist off the center line).
I am 15 degrees.
Here's why if you haven't heard it. A couple years ago I was doing pretty good in my first year of bowling. I was using a very stretched spans. Since then I went to a more normal span for my hand! Since then here's what my ball sounds like on the lane, bump, bump! Not good!
The pitches I used to use on the stretched span no longer look right.
0 forward and back for some reason makes me look all krinkled up in the
fingers. Reverse pitch seems to end up with me losing the ball too quick and losing one of the strengths of my bowling, the ball staying what looks like and feels like forever on my fingers. Giving me lots of last second control of the ball. (A PBA friend of mine calls it my Earl Anthony release, very flattering).
Joe took a lot of time analyzing my hand and explaining his whole method.
Very impressive and a very impressive shop!
To make this long story end. The effect of turning the ball and drilling the spans in the direction that your fingers pull is very interesting.
I now seem to be able to hold on to the ball like I did when I had a very long span. I'm using 0 forward reverse again but my fingers no longer look krinkled all up like they had with the traditional drilling method and 0 reverse.
T GOD (who I respect) and Brian Omara have gotten in to quite a debate over whehter the CLT is really just another set of pitches. Here is my observation.
The pitches if measured in relation to the traditional method of pointing straight back to your thumb are different. For example(remember on lefty),
Joe had me listed for my middle finger as 5/8 right and 0 forward/reverse.
This drilled along with the ball turned 15 degrees. IF measured in relation to the traditional method back to the thumb the pitches on the middle finger are more like 1/2 and 3/16 forward. The middle finger drilled at 1/4 left and 0 forward/reverse ends up if measured back to the thumb at 5/16 left and 1/16 reverse.
Note if measure along a 15 degree line tilted to the right the pitches are as drilled. If measured back to the thumb along the traditional center line they are different.
My conclusion. They really are a different set of pitches! However to calculate them would be doable but difficult and actually can be done more easily by just by spinning the table or ball the 15 degrees necessary for me.
Final, First impression is it works! My PBA buddy said as soon as he saw me.
Great! You've got your Earl Anthony(obviously an exageration) release back! The balls over the foul line,, the sound of the ball is no longer bump bump but shhhhhhh!
If you are having problems like I described try CLT!
REgards,
Luckylefty
To contact Brian Omara, message on this forum, to contact Joe Moore at bowling techniques call 757 564-9240
PS I tried this on a Voodoo when I got home see my review!

Edited on 8/12/2002 8:20 AM





its when you turn your finger holes so your thumb and finger holes arent lined up..... it makes more sense if you put your thumb in the ball and lay your fingers over your finger holes.... you will notice that your fingers lay across the holes at an angle..... you turn your finger holes to match your fingers when u lay em across the ball........
the point of it is to put the ball in the palm of your hand which inturn will help you turn the ball more effortlessly.....

hope this helps,
brian


It is short for "center line transfer" and it is drilling the fingers along a different center line than the thumb. It is not however done so you can lay your palm on the ball. This may be a benefit(if you see it that way), but the reason you really should use a CLT is because flat out...it's more comfortable to put your hand in a ball drilled this way than the standard "T" grip.
With a "T" grip the fingers point right at the thumb. We all know that your thumb is not in line with your fingers....so this makes no sense. By drilling the fingers along a different center line...one that points away from your thumb...you allow the fingers to go in the ball and have the thumb just drop into the thumb hole. Just as the bone structure of your hand is designed.
Keep in mind. This is NOT an offset thumb hole!!! Some people may refer to it as one. But it is not. An offset would require the thumb to move and then the spans would change. With a CLT, the spans remain the same and it's the center lines that the pitches are drilled off of that change.
Confusing...yes. But worth it when done properly.


Coach
If you lay your hand across the ball with the thumb in the thumb hole, your fingers will point in a direction away from your thumb. Trace a line inside of your fingers. Draw this line so that it extends down past the thumb hole. If you're right handed, this will be to the right of the thumb hole. This is the new center line for the fingers. You will drill the finger pitches along this new line.
With this method, you now have two different center lines. One for the thumb and one for the fingers.
I think I know the answer to this.
The first time you do it you drill the thumb first.
Then you lay hand on ball and draw the line between fingers that offset from the thumb. As Brian says to the left for lefties, to the right for righties.
One now measure span in typical t grip way. Next step now one orients the ball to the line you just drew. The CLT line now pitches are entered and the fingers are drilled. After you record in your records you can drill fingers first if you want.
I now find at this point that the thumb pitch oriented to the Tgrip line is fine.
However the pitches I've now put in the ball have a dramatically different feel than same pitches entered on the T grip line.
Because of my close to 20 degree CLT line offset my middle finger if drilled at a 0 degree forward/reverse pitch is now forward in relation to the old T grip measurements. My ring finger ends up if entered using the CLT line at 0 as slightly reverse when measured against the Tgrip standard.
I end up with a CLT grip tracking a little lower and with slightly heavier roll and fewer revs. I also end up tweaking pitches usually moving the middle finger slightly reverse and ring slightly forward. Then I end up with a similar feel as the Tgrip(as far as both fingers hitting fairly equally instead of the feeling that the CLT grip gives of middle finger hitting a lot harder).
But I gain the comfort of the CLT grip.(edited from T grip placed here accidently in original post).
MOst people think CLT is a lot of extra effort unless you have an offset of 15 degrees or more for the line between your fingers vs standard Tgrip line.
REgards,
Luckyleftyring
I wouldn't, but Brian Omara might.
What we are saying instead is that the CLT line give the ball driller a method to place the pitches in a line with the pull of the fingers. (Which for most people is to the side of the thumb along the center line transfer line CLT) not straight to the center of the thumb as in the standard Tgrip.
Spans are still drawn to the Tgrip. As is the Thumb pitch drilled in relation to the Tgrip.
REgards,
Luckylefty
 Angstfilled
             Posted: 1/31/2003 11:43 PM    
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Lucky--
Where did you get that book, and are there any pics online that might be able to illistrate it a little better? I tried it today on a house ball, and it felt ok, but the guy that got me kicked out of my pro shop job by buying the shop from the center bashed it, saying that I could have just taken my finger pitches based off the regular T grip, and applied them like that, as opposed to doing the CLT.
So is that confusing yet?

--------------------
Jer Migonis
Email: Angstfilled@angelfire.com
 LuckyLefty
             Posted: 2/1/2003 0:02 AM    
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What book. There is no book on CLT, just I read Brian Omara's posts.
On this site there has been a lot of disagreement regarding whether CLT is just a set of different pitches.
Between Brian and TGod????
Brian says no, Tgod says yes.
I say I don't know.
I am not a raving fan of CLT, but I will admit that I like the concept of having pitches drilled in relation to the pull of my fingers.
I believe that the Collier grip(thumb offset off of the Tgrip for lefties to the right for righties to the left) is a variation of this. In that when one does a Collier grip when one drills the thumb offset now the finger line points to the edge of the thumb hole or completely off of it. This now ends up with one drilling pitches around a Tgrip line which is now actually a CLT line as it points off of the thumb. Now ones pitches are oriented to a line offset from the thumb.
However, now one must now drill the thumb pitches slightly different to get the same feel as the standard T grip thumb now. This is because line now points up towards the middle finger and pitches will be oriented to that instead of center of two fingers.

REgards,
Luckylefty
 Amigo2
             Posted: 2/1/2003 3:27 AM    
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I have all of my equipment drilled by the CLT method except for one ball I purchased in Billings last year. I asked Storm's driller what he thought of CLT. He seemed to know what he was talking about and said that he could do the same thing by changing pitches. I had him drill one for me and he did a good job. But,,,,, It is not the same!
By changeing pitches only it's definitley a different feel. The CLT seems to fit my hand so much better, the ball just lays in my hand. By changing pitches only, I feel the fingers with more lateral left and it feels unatural. I have followed both sides of the argument and listened to opinions of different pro shop operators. My experience in the last 12 months has been that I have had better results with CLT. I do not argue with those that believe there is nothing to CLT, I just continue using what works for me!
Amigo
After drilling a CLT grip, measure the finger pitches using the centerline you drilled your thumb on, instead of the centerline used to drill the fingers. Now you can use the new finger pitches to drill your next ball using the normal T-grip. =:^D  LuckyLefty
             Posted: 2/2/2003 6:02 AM    
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TGod I agree in a way.
Trigonometry tells us that in the CLT we will have slightly less lateral than the Tgip version in both fingers. Also that we will end up with forward on the middle finger and slight reverse on the ring.
This will assume that we enter in a balanced lateral spread of fingers.
Something like 3/8 left and 3/8 right. Also it assumes one enters 0 for forward reverse pitch on the fingers.
However I don't know what it is but it DOES feel different when entered in along the CLT line. Something about orienting pitches along the line of pull of the fingers.
Now, it is interesting I just went to a Mo Pinel Del Warren seminar.
Mo entered my pitches in forward 1/2 on my middle finger and 1/4 on my ring.
I asked him if this was CLT, he said no but this is what I now do.
Implying that his type of pitch change mimicked clt.
Note one will always end up with more forward in the middle finger than the ring if one does CLT as long as the lateral of the middle finger is greater than 0.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS This extra forward of the middle always leads to more tilt and turn for the bowler. A slightly lower track. Again I seem to lose a rev with CLT and become slightly a lower track player. I had some big series with it. Yet I'm now drilling Tgrip. If I want to replicate CLT I enter more forward in to the middle finger and a little less forward in my ring. I also place my oval finger inserts facing down my CLT line. It does not feel quite as good as CLT, but I have a slight bit of extra revs.
 Angstfilled
             Posted: 2/2/2003 12:00 PM    
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Yeah, when I drilled it, I usually have 1/4 reverse on my fingers, but with the CLT, it went 1/8 3/8. I wonder what would happen if I pulled the ring finger back to 1/4, and just did it t grip style.
--------------------
Jer Migonis
Email: Angstfilled@angelfire.com
 Brian Omara
             Posted: 2/2/2003 10:07 PM    
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Well, I waited a while because I didn't want this to turn ugly like in the past. Some of you know what I'm talking about. It doesn't look like it will, so here goes.
I still believe that a CLT in NOT just a pitch change. I have done much experimenting with my stuff as well as others and have found that the CLT grip sits in the hand much more comfortably that a "T" grip with different pitches. You can remeasure the pitches after using a CLT and drill those pitches on a standard "T" grip and the two balls will not feel the same in your hand. If anyone finds this to be untrue and you can drill a "T" grip with CLT pitches then I say "go for it".
But then again, why not just use the CLT in the first place?
If your ball driller can measure you for a CLT, have it come out good so it's very comfortable in your hand, and then take the time to remeasure pitches....then why not just have them drill the CLT every time? Seems to me this would only make sense. And save some time.
--------------------

"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
 pchee2
             Posted: 2/2/2003 11:18 PM    
________________________________________
Myself, I prefer to have my fingers pitched into a BLT.

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pchee2<~~~strokin the ball with cranker revs and spraying the lanes for an average of a buck 62. This guy is full of STUFF!
 LuckyLefty
             Posted: 2/3/2003 5:46 AM    
________________________________________
Hey,
Brian,
I agree with you. The CLT feels different than entering the pitches measured in relation to the Tgrip.
The only reason I don't use the CLT is that I seen to have lost a rev and I don't want to lose any of my 14 to 15.
When I go to the Tgrip I seem to pick that rev back up.
The feel of the CLT is real good and my hand looks good on the ball.
But I seem to be able to get a little more watusi on the ball standard.
Anyone else ever mention this.
REgards,
Luckylefty PS I also have become very aware of pointing my oval finger inserts down my CLT even when I drill the T grip. This has helped with the comfort of my grip quite a bit and eliminated a lot of the torqued look at the end of my fingers with the standard Tgrip and my ovals pointed to the thumb.
 Brian Omara
             Posted: 2/3/2003 7:40 AM    
________________________________________
Lucky,
I haven't really found a decrease in revs by using a CLT. If anyhting, you should be able to create more side roll with it. Which in turn will store more energy and then more backend...with less effort. But, to each his own. If you or anyone else is having success with what you do...then I say "do it".
Pchee...maybe if you take your fingers out of that BLT, you might get your average up to 165.
--------------------

"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
 livespive
             Posted: 2/3/2003 8:15 AM    
________________________________________
Just as I have done with Lucky's advice I will have to get a ball punched out to try it. I had all of my balls Done with my new span calculated via bill taylor method and they feel good. The side rool that Brian mentioned intrest me so I will have to give CLT a shot.
Right now I need to go finish my BLT, all of pchee2's talk has made me hungry  
 LuckyLefty
             Posted: 2/3/2003 10:57 AM    
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Of course I have not had CLT drilled by Brian Omara!
Last year we almost connected and this year maybe we will.
REgards,
Luckylefty
 livespive
             Posted: 2/3/2003 11:19 AM    
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Yeah I got to talking with Brian myself one about where he was located. I might have to make my way over there to him for a weekend, and see what we can do.  quagmire
             Posted: 2/6/2003 12:29 PM    
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To back up what Brian originally said CLT's allow most people a more comfortable grip which should allow the player to not squeeze as much and therefore reproduce shots better.It also helps with swelling because there is not as much strain on your hand.
Remember everyones hands are different as far as flexibility and bone structure. An easy way to figure out what might be best for you is : take one of your own balls put your thumb in only, lay your outstretched hand on the ball and see if your fingers lay close to the holes that already exist. Most of you will find for right handers that your hand feels alot better with your fingers about 1/2" to 1" to the right of your existing finger holes. If you also notice that when you move your fingers to the right your elbow and forearm start to come closer to your body. (remember this doesnt work for everyone). Remeber that naturally your thumb is not positioned directly under your fingers and when you have a tgrip you are forcing your thumb to be under your fingers, the more you move your thumb under your fingers the more the rest of your arm is affected (relax your hand palm up and touch your thumb to your pinky(dont bring your pinky to your thumb try to bring thumb over to pinky), if you have alot of flexibility it will be easier if you dont you will notice your wrist and forearm will rotate to try and accomplish this task) those with plenty of flexibility can get away with with most types of drills, those without should really try a CLT or offset thumb.  Buba
             Posted: 2/6/2003 9:36 PM    
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I have some questions"
1. My thumb lacks about 1 inch of being able to touch my pinkie and it hurts right up thru the top of my thumb when I try to touch my pinkie. So are you saying that the CLT is (will work) for me? And about how much right of the finger holes should my fingers go when trying to locate for new holes? And does the span now change as well as finger pitches? I am really interested in this as I have a lot of problem keeping my elbow in. Didn't used to have this much problem, but now that I've gotten older and stiffer, I do.
2. What exactly is an off-set thumb?
 Buba
             Posted: 2/6/2003 10:24 PM    
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Another question on the CLT grip. LuckyLefty, you mentioned the Collier grip. I know what the Collier grip is although I'm not quote sure how far left to move the thumb for a right hander. (please don't tell me to see my pro shop operator as he is new to ball drilling and I am lucky if he even gets the ball laid out right) Are you saying that the Collier grip is the same or almost the same as the CLT grip?  LuckyLefty
             Posted: 2/7/2003 5:22 AM    
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Brick,
Some interesting questions.
Offset grip, collier grip are the same thing in my mind.
The thumb is offset at least in the collier grip under the ring finger.
How much I don't know?
Bill Taylor says this grip doesn't exist, you are just reorienting a triangle.
I sort of disagree, if one orients the finger pitches to the side of the center of the thumb or down the line which one used to offset the thumb, instead of the traditional T grip line,(to the center of the thumb).
This offsetting of these finger pitches to a line offset from the thumb makes this grip similar to the CLT grip which offset pitches off the thumb(how much, how much do your fingers offset from your thumb). Draw a line between them when in ball and you will see.
The difference and I've drilled both between the CLT and the Collier is that both orient the finger pitches off the center of the thumbhole. The CLT then orients the Thumb pitches to the standard Tgrip line. I oriented the thumb pitches for the Collier offset to the line to the ring finger.
Ps The collier(or offset under ring finger) felt pretty good to me but with this setup I felt I needed to adjust my thumb pitches a little from my standard.
Now regarding your question on elbow position during the swing. I am not sure that problem relates to offset thumb etc.
Lately and in my own case besides getting the ball too far away from your slide leg, I believe a possible cause of this problem is too little lateral pitch under palm for your thumb.
In golf we have a saying "staying under". In golf one of the number one causes of not being able to stay under is too weak of a left hand grip. This causes the golfer to have the right elbow fly over the line to try to square up the club.
So it is in bowling. Too little lateral thumb under palm pitch(right for a righty, left for a lefty)to start rotating the elbow well before release to apply the necessary turn to the ball enough to return it to the pocket. The right amount of lateral pitch for your body and anatomy makes it much easier to keep the elbow behind or even inside the ball.
I've detailed before how to find these pitches somewhere in this forum but a quick refresh.
Grab a cylinder, coke bottle whatever, naturally.
Where does your thumb point?
To your indes finger = 1/8 left lateral pitch for a righty.
Between index and middle = 0 pitch
Middle finger = 1/8 right lateral pitch
between middle and ring 1/4 right lateral pitch
ring finger 3/8 right lateral pitch.
For years I have been using 1/16 left lateral(I'm lefty) and 1/8 lateral.
After doing this test I believe that I should be using 1/4 to 3/8 lateral.
I've just started trying it. At first I was spinning and topping.
Probably because I was used to getting my elbow out a little.
As I get more used to it I'm finding my elbow is getting tighter and tighter.
I have a friend that tests very similarly to me in the coke test above.
We almost point to our ring finger.
He has been trying 3/8" under palm lateral.
At first he struggled. Last week 767! During this set I had noticed how tight his elbow had looked. Note he has been using 1/8 lateral out!!!!!
This is the state of drilling today. Let's try what this guy over there is using even if it doesn't fit your hand! It's the latest trend!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS the trend for bowlers right now is to follow some of the pros who are going to near 0 lateral pitch. This reminds me of the trend in golf when left hand grips weakened for the pros and all the amateurs tried it. Of course the amateurs were already slicing it and it just made their slicing worse! So it is in bowling, if one blindly follows a trend because it's popular and their anatomy doesn't match up. Bad results will follow.
PPS I have a pro friend who recently went from 1/8 under to 1/8 lateral out.
He said see one can use anything! However in contrast to me he tests out at 0 with the coke bottle test above. Naturally a range of acceptable positions can work for him around 0. I on the other hand test out to about 5/16 lateral under palm. My variations are around that center point. Probaly 3/8 lateral under has the same feel and affect on my elbow as does 1/16 under for him!
Edited on 2/7/2003 5:50 AM
Edited on 2/7/2003 5:54 AM
 OmegaBowler
             Posted: 2/10/2003 4:02 PM    
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I have just drilled up a new ball with a CLT and Converted a another.
A few things I have noticed.
The drilling seams to make a bigger impact without the inserts. 1 with, 1 without. That could be just me.
The ball rests more in the palm of the hand. By my informal tests: I set my hand in the ball ( RH) then take my left index finger and slide it between my palm and ball as far as I can without disrupting my fit. I mark my palm and then try the new fit. The CLT lets 1 inch more of the ball set on my hand. for me that meant that about 25% percent of my hand touched the ball. now with the CLT almost 50% of my hand touched the ball.
I'm not sure of all my pitches yet and will have to iron them out over time. I like my old fit just fine and have bowled well with it. It took serval drillings to get it right. The CLT is now my drilling of choice. Only time will tell if there are any long term strains or such.
I have said before that a 15/16# ball on the end of your fingers is not natural. I just try and make it as comfortable as possible and The CLT Is number 1 in making that happen
Number 2 is Magic Carpet Tape.
My game has settled down and my avg is a steady at 190. I will report back if these new changes add or subtract to my game in a big manner. Right now my cross lane spares are killing me. 10 pins are about 90%, 7 pin side about 40%. right there is my 200 avg. But that is a completely different problem.
Sorry for the long rambling.
 capa
             Posted: 2/11/2003 10:13 AM    
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Hmmm, that sounds like a very interesting technique - and maybe a solution for my grip problems  
But for someone who isn't that knowledgeable when it comes to drill patterns this sounds very difficult...
My ball driller has no experience with CLT so I'll have to learn it here and tell him what to do  
I have one photo of one of my balls after it was drilled here.
(By the way: How can we include images directly in the post like in other forums?)
So this is the conventional T-grip, right?
In this case it has zero pitch in both fingerholes.
Will the fingerholes be at the same places when you use CLT or do the shift left or right?
quote:
________________________________________
If you lay your hand across the ball with the thumb in the thumb hole...
________________________________________
^^^ Brian Omara ^^^
Where exactly do you place the fingers? Directly over their holes?
 LuckyLefty
             Posted: 2/11/2003 2:34 PM    
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Capa,
From your previous posts I really think the lateral thumb pitch under palm may
be a big part of your solution.
This is a interesting technique and can be a great help to many people. But However, your thumb problem sounds serious.
One places fingers over where the finger holes will be drilled in the current T grip.
One draws a line down the center of middle and ring finger.
The ball is reoriented to this line in the jig and then the standard finger pitches are drilled whatever they are. The same lateral and same forward reverse are used at least at first.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS IF it is me I try one change at a time. First thumb pitch, then one should try CLT. Or just CLT and if this not the solution(I don't think it is) then thumb pitch.

T
 livespive
             Posted: 2/11/2003 4:42 PM    
________________________________________
quote:
________________________________________
One places fingers over where the finger holes will be drilled in the current T grip.
One draws a line down the center of middle and ring finger.
The ball is reoriented to this line in the jig and then the standard finger pitches are drilled whatever they are. The same lateral and same forward reverse are used at least at first.
________________________________________
Now,
Are you saying that the line that has just been drawn is the line where you would place your thumbhole? Then put your thumb in the ball and allow the fingers to relax and draw another line and then lay out the finger holes on the new line?
Also If we use a combination and use everything that Bill Taylor say to establis the thumb location and pitch, is it possible to then lay the thumb in and layout a cly from the Taylor thumb position.
It might sound like I am rambling, but I am going to the proshop tomorrow to give this a whirl, so I am just clearing a few things up.
T[/quote]
 Brian Omara
             Posted: 2/11/2003 9:00 PM    
________________________________________
Capa...just as Lucky has said. After placing your thumb in the thumb hole. Lay your fingers across the ball...in the case of a ball that's already got holes...over the existing holes. You'll notice the fingers do not point straight down towards the thumb. The line that is formed, which should point to the right of the thumb(being right handed) is the new center line that you would drill the finger pitches off of. The pitches you would use would be whatever you normally would. There's no need to make any adustments on fingers pitches when using a CLT. Unless you come up with something that feels better.
The biggest change that I've noticed when using a CLT is in the oval angle of the thumb. If drilling a round thumb hole, no change needed. When drilling an oval thumb hole, the angle is different than with the "T" grip. Just one more thing to confuse and think about.
--------------------

"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
 capa
             Posted: 2/12/2003 9:44 AM    
________________________________________
Thanks for all your helpful answers  
This is a real great place here.
LuckyLefty: But how much side pitch should I try? 1/8?
At this time all my balls have zero pitch in the finger holes and if I change
them this might solve another miscomfort that I have: When I grip the bowling
ball my fingernails get squeezed against the rubber of the finger inserts. That
does not feel so comfortable. If I got the terms right I would need reverse
pitch in the fingerholes, right?
How much pitch once again is trial and error?
If you change fingerpitches do you have to adjust the span as well?
I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times before but since this board is
lacking a search function (or at least I haven't found it yet) I'll ask it again:
How do you find out the correct span size?
I must add that I have a so called double-jointed or flexible thumb - absolutely
novelty for my ball driller and I have a callous at the base of my thumb caused
by the edge of the thumbhole (which is already bevelled but to no avail).
Or is this too far off-topic and I'd better spawn a new thread for that question?
 LuckyLefty
             Posted: 2/12/2003 11:21 AM    
________________________________________
Coke bottle test which I've described earlier in this post and how to interpret the results determines lateral pitch.
1/8 out if thumb points at index finger
0 if pointing between index and middle
1/8 lateral under(right for righties) if at middle finger
1/4 between middle and ring
3/8 if thumb points at ring finger (3/8 right for righties)
Span should already be dialed in with your driller.
How I find span is about 5/16 short of last joint for both fingers when fingers stretched quite a bit.
Callus at top base of thumb is always bad. Indicates too long a span or inadequate front bevel in thumb.
Go to drilling forum here on this site all these areas have been covered recently(on the first page).
Lateral thumb pitch, span, and bevel.
REgards,
Luckylefty
I
 Billson
             Posted: 2/16/2003 6:34 AM    
________________________________________
Brian O,
quote:
________________________________________
I still believe that a CLT in NOT just a pitch change. I have done much experimenting with my stuff as well as others and have found that the CLT grip sits in the hand much more comfortably that a "T" grip with different pitches. You can remeasure the pitches after using a CLT and drill those pitches on a standard "T" grip and the two balls will not feel the same in your hand.
________________________________________
Can you elaborate more on your statement above because I can't quite imagine it. Do you mean to tell us that for every new ball you want to have drilled using CLT, you have to take new measurements every time because if you compare both drillings afterwards by using the standard "T" grip method, the measurements will be different?
On the other hand, if you remeasure the pitches after using a CLT and drill those pitches on a standard "T" grip, since both balls have exactly identical measurements, how can the two balls not feel the same in your hand? I can't see where the difference your talking about lies? What am I missing here?
I'm no ball driller but your statement doesn't seem to make sense to me.
Regards,
Billson
 Brian Omara
             Posted: 2/17/2003 5:21 PM    
________________________________________
Billson
This has been covered many times before.
First...you don't have to take new measurements with each new ball. As long as you know what your CLT is, your ball driller should be able to duplicate it with every ball. The spans, pitches and hole sizes are all the same as with a "T" grip. The only difference would be the line the finger pitches are drilled off of and the angle of the oval in the thumb...if one is used.
The reason the CLT and the "T" do not feel the same by remeasuring the pitches from a CLT onto the "T" is because the pitches are drilled off of two different lines. When the thumb is drilled off center line "A" (we'll say), you draw a new center line("B"), which if right handed, is to the right of the first(thumb) center line and extending up. If you were to lay your hand across the ball with your thumb in the thumb hole, your fingers would follow this line("B") and it would point up your arm....not at the thumb like in a "T" grip. Because of these two different center lines, the ball sits in your hand differently and you get a different feel than you would with these same pitches in a "T" grip.
You can ask anyone who's tried this. They will tell you that the CLT sits in the hand and feels different than the "T" grip. No matter what pitches you use.
Hope this makes a little more sense now.
--------------------

"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
 Billson
             Posted: 2/17/2003 6:55 PM    
________________________________________
Brian O,
I think you missed my point. I understand how a CLT is measured and drilled. It's your statement "you can remeasure the pitches after using a CLT and drill those pitches on a standard "T" grip and the two balls will not feel the same in your hand" that confuses me. Since both balls have exactly identical measurements, how can the two balls not feel the same in your hand?
I'm not trying to start an arguement here. It's just that I'm planning to give CLT a try but I don't know how to go about it. After I have determined the center line B and have pitched the holes based on this, how do I make a record of a layout with two centerlines if I can't just remeasure the pitches to drill on a new ball? I'm not too sure how to get my point through so please bear with me if you still can't understand what I'm trying to say.
Regards,
Billson
 LuckyLefty
             Posted: 2/17/2003 9:32 PM    
________________________________________
Billson,
You have just figured out how to do CLT the same everytime.
One draws there CLT between the middle and ring finger.
One measures the amount of offset from thumb in inches or degrees.
It doesn't matter which. One knows what pitch one just entered in to ball.
To drill a new ball
Drill thumb.
Draw line on determined CLT line(inches or angle)
Reorrient ball to that line.
Enter T grip pitches or previous CLT pithces.
Easy.
Now it sounds like you want to make it hard on yourself and enter CLT pithces once and then measure them in Relation to Tgrip line and enter them always using Tgrip. You can do that but why make it difficult?
REgards,
Luckylefty
I know I haven't answered your question on why Tgrip entry of measured CLT pithces pitches doesn't feel the same. I haven't tested and don't know the answer.
 Brian Omara
             Posted: 2/18/2003 4:50 PM    
________________________________________
Billson,
Lucky pretty much said it all. I do understand what you are trying to say and I think maybe you are making it a bit more difficult than it is. Once you have your CLT measurements, just use these everytime you drill a new ball. You never need to use a "T" grip again. You can use your "T" grip pitches, they'll just be drilled off the new center line.
Again, as far as the feel goes, refer to my statement about how the ball sits in your hand. Because the pitches are drilled off a different center line, the ball sits in your hand differently and gives a different feel than the same pitches drilled pointing to your thumb like in a "T" grip. With the CLT, there's no twisting of the hand to get the thumb to fall into the thumb hole.
I hope this helps and I realize you're not trying to start an argument like some people on these boards.
--------------------

"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
 WAYouthBowler
             Posted: 2/18/2003 5:20 PM    
________________________________________
Well I printed out these pages a few days ago and brought them to my driller. I explained to him what exactly goes on in drilling up a CLT ball, and we tried it out.
The ball felt great when it sat on my hand, my driller held it in his own just to see what it was like and stated that it felt "really good".
Anyways, took the ball down and starting throwing it, and proceeded to constantly lose the ball too early at release and had no consistency with my rotation.
So I've come to the conclusion that clt would work if I refined my thumb pitches and span, but I think I'll stay with what I got for the time being.
Thanks for all the interesting info guys, very cool stuff.
 Billson
             Posted: 2/20/2003 2:57 AM    
________________________________________
Thanks for the replies guys but I think only Luckylefty understood what I was trying to say.
Lucky,
Your last statement is the question I've been asking about all along but after all the replies, I still don't have the answer. Never mind coz we've now ended up going around in circles.
quote:
________________________________________
Now it sounds like you want to make it hard on yourself and enter CLT pitches once and then measure them in Relation to Tgrip line and enter them always using Tgrip. You can do that but why make it difficult?
________________________________________
I'm thinking doing it this way will make it easier for the pro shop to understand what I want him to do since it is what he is used to doing.
Brian,
This is your statement that I wanted you to clarify but it seems we keep getting off track.
quote:
________________________________________
You can remeasure the pitches after using a CLT and drill those pitches on a standard "T" grip and the two balls will not feel the same in your hand.
________________________________________
I just wanted you to clarify why they don't feel the same since technically they have identical measurements or did you just misstate what you were trying to say?
Regards,
Billson
 OLI
             Posted: 2/20/2003 5:07 AM    
________________________________________
Your centerline is different with a CLT tranfer. Yes, the pitches would it will not feel the same to your hand.  BT
             Posted: 2/20/2003 7:29 AM    
________________________________________
Phew! You guys are making me dizzy! Although I eat up all of this technical info it seems that there are a lot of variables involved depending on ones anatomy. Since i am what I consider somewhat of a "freak of nature" this CLT drilling might just be the hot ticket for me. When I grab a coke can my thumb points to the INDEX finger! It's VERY difficult to point thumb to pinky. Anyway, I need to absorb all of this for awhile.. In the mean time I will try to test Capa's question regarding entering images into the reply directly. I have been wanting to try this anyway so here goes!
<pre id=code><font face=courier size=2 id=code><img src="http://www.cre8ive.de/other/t-grip.jpg"> [/code]

IF this works there should be Capa's ball picture above...
 
<img src="http://www.cre8ive.de/other/t-grip.jpg">
Sorry for all the experimenting. This obviously isnt allowed. I viewed the HTML and the < and > are removed. The above line is changed to :
"<img src="http://www.cre8ive.de/other/t-grip.jpg">"
Edited on 2/20/2003 7:54 AM
Edited on 2/20/2003 8:03 AM
 BT
             Posted: 2/20/2003 8:34 AM    
________________________________________
ok, after searching the net for clt I discovered there isnt much there. Did however find another term I didnt understand as quoted below from a website who sells drilling machines.
"Grips: Because of the versatility of the ovalmatic machine you can drill almost any grip you want without taking the ball out, weather it's an offset grip, thumb inline, CLT (centerline transposition), or even the new max-y grip"
What is a "max-y grip"?
(from http://www.precisionbowlingproducts.com/faq.html)
 PolishHammer
             Posted: 2/20/2003 2:17 PM    
________________________________________
quote:
________________________________________
ok, after searching the net for clt I discovered there isnt much there. Did however find another term I didnt understand as quoted below from a website who sells drilling machines.
"Grips: Because of the versatility of the ovalmatic machine you can drill almost any grip you want without taking the ball out, weather it's an offset grip, thumb inline, CLT (centerline transposition), or even the new max-y grip"
What is a "max-y grip"?
(from http://www.precisionbowlingproducts.com/faq.html)
________________________________________
I got a ball drilled with the "max y grip" and then had my pro shop operator try to copy it. They asked for weird measurements of the width of my fingers. The only thing that looked different from my original grip was that the finger insert were rotated counter clockwise about 30 degrees. My pro shop operator copied the pitches and the gave me an offset thumb and it feels comfortable and allows more of my palm to contact the ball, but I'm not sure if its all that revolutionary. I would love to know more about it as well.
 Brian Omara
             Posted: 2/20/2003 2:23 PM    
________________________________________
Billson...I don't know how many ways to say it or how many times. This is the quote I wrote that answers your question as to why the "T" grip and the CLT do not feel the same even though you use the same pitches.
quote:
________________________________________
The reason the CLT and the "T" do not feel the same by remeasuring the pitches from a CLT onto the "T" is because the pitches are drilled off of two different lines. When the thumb is drilled off center line "A" (we'll say), you draw a new center line("B"), which if right handed, is to the right of the first(thumb) center line and extending up. If you were to lay your hand across the ball with your thumb in the thumb hole, your fingers would follow this line("B") and it would point up your arm....not at the thumb like in a "T" grip. Because of these two different center lines, the ball sits in your hand differently and you get a different feel than you would with these same pitches in a "T" grip.
________________________________________

You are trying to look at it from a simple "numbers" game. And it's not.. It's a feel thing. If you look at the numbers and see that the pitches and span all measure the same...you think "well, they must feel the same." They don't. And the reason they don't is stated above. I guess you would have to try it to see what I mean.
As far as your statement that it would be easier for your ball driller. I don't think it would. If you get a CLT and know the angle or amount of shift it is, then that should be the way to drill balls in the future. Just like a standard "T" grip, the CLT becomes the "norm" when you drill a ball. And like I and Lucky said earlier, if your ball driller can do a CLT, then there's no need to copy pitches and try to duplicate it on a "T grip. It's a waste of time and energy.
Please tell me if this helps at all. If not, then someone is missing the "understanding" boat here. I think I have answered your question and explained it best I could. If I haven't, could someone...Lucky...please help.
--------------------

"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
 BT
             Posted: 2/22/2003 8:20 AM    
________________________________________
Ok guys lets keep this alive since I don't think this is completely resolved yet. I am going to research this subject more. i am going to work with my ball driller and, try to get a clearer picture of what ALL is involved since I have a gut feeling that there are more variables involved (maybe). One thing that i think is a big factor and, not brought up much so far IS: Round thumb hole OR oval. IF you have a round thumb hole and, you insert the thumb in one of your balls as suggested by several here ,, it is possible to rotate your hand and fingers to ANY one of of 360 degree locations. So, this seems useless in determining where the "fingers rest naturally"! An oval thumb hole is another story. Depending on the number of degrees this is with relation to the fingers IS what determines where your fingers feel the best. Not saying I disagree with all of you, just making an observation. I also am thinking of talking to an X PBA pro (PBA hall of famer) who lives here and, see what his thoughts are on this subject. One thing that bothers me is there is NO info on the internet (that I could find) about the CLT, Collier, or Max-Y grips. This alone says something... maybe that it's a farce? Anyone found any info on the internet regarding this? Please share the address if so!
To Be continued......
It IS very interesting to me!
I have just drilled my EQuipment CLt. I like the feel much better.
It's easy( If my proshops does it right.)
1.mark the grip centerline on the ball
2.Drill a hole for your thumb. with pitched to befit you natural thumb etc..
3. place your thumb in the hole like you normal would for a t-grip. now lay your palm on the ball and relax your hand.
4. draw line between your fingers.
5 you have now repositioned the grip centerline for your fingers. drill proper finger pitches.
actually for a right handed person the range of degrees should be between 90 ( t-grip and 180(max) more like 135 +/- 20.
so the grip centerline based on the thumb becomes the Y axis and fingers are angled to it.
a normal T-Grip is all along the y axis +/- 10 deg. If you take your ball now and place your fingers in the ball. now place your thumb in the ball in slow motion. now observe the twisting of the palm and thumb base to fit it in the hole.
With clt there is far less twisting and bending. it's just more natural.
lay your hand on the table palm up ,like you have a softball in your hand. now look at the pad of your thumb and the pad of your fingers as if they are flat. no way does a line connect them at 90 deg(T-Grip).

so the pitches in your thumb and the pitches in your fingers are on different reference lines.
Does that help? sound right Brian?
 BT
             Posted: 2/22/2003 10:07 AM    
________________________________________
Omega,
Now, THIS makes some sense! It is EXACTLY what I have been experimenting with this morning! Drilling the thumb WITH the desired lateral and for/reverse pitch AND oval angle of the thumbhole IF using an oval thumb hole. These are the only questionable numbers now to me.
More info found on PBA.COM forums:
Titled "Offset thumbhole"
--------------------------------

Hi all,
Just wondering if any of you use an off set thumb hole or if your ball is drilled straight back from the fingers.
I talked to a guy who showed me his equipement and his were off set. He looked at my hand and demonstrated how my thumb will not line up with my fingers going straight back to my elbow.
This seems to make alot of sence to me. I have been having hand pain from cranking my thumb in just to get it in the ball.
Will an off set thumb help me release the ball better?
What are the pros and cons of an off set thumb?
Any answers are greatly appreciated,
Charles
------------------------------------------------
A reply to this:
I thought this would provoke some 'discussion'.....
I have argued this with people for years. I have diagrammed why it makes a difference, a REAL difference-- but there are many who cannot, or WILL not, see. They believe that 'offset' is impossible without screwing up the spans. It does not screw up the spans. It simply aligns the thumb-hole PITCHES properly with the rest of your hand. The difference may only be 10 degrees-- but if you don't think that makes a difference, put an oval thumb insert in your ball at an angle that's 10 degrees off where it should be! Unless your opposable thumb functions differently from all the ones I've seen-- and MOST of the thumbs I've worked with seemd to belong to hominids of some sort, or at least higher primates-- that difference makes ALL the difference. It enables the use of less ridiculous amounts of reverse and lateral pitches to get a clean, consistent release, which in turn promotes a more relaxed grip, a freer armswing, and everything that goes along with that.....just as Mr. Taylor and IBPSIA advocate.
The term "offset" is probably misleading and imprecise, for describing what is actually being done. But the CONCEPT is very, very real and true. And the EFFECTS are UNDENIABLY REAL.
Your Honor, the Defense rests
 BT
             Posted: 2/22/2003 10:21 AM    
________________________________________
quote:
________________________________________
Is that short for "center line transfer" by any chance? I've heard the term before, but didn't know what it was.
________________________________________
According to Ebonite's Glossary of terms:
Center line transposition (CLT) – Lateral shift of the center line, after drilling thumb first.
 OmegaBowler
             Posted: 2/22/2003 10:32 AM    
________________________________________
I no ball driller. Thta's for sure.
from previous posts I thought and offset thumb was different that a CLT.
I'm under this impression. the standard t-grip is used but when you make the grip centerline you draw a parallel line to the grip center(now used for finger layout) offset some number like 3/8" left( for RH) and adjust the thumb pitches but leave the thumb alone.
If this is so, then there would be a difference in fit.
so for offset thumb, a finger pitch would be 3/8 left would still be 3/8 left in relation to the thumb. In a clt the finger pitch could still be 3/8 but not in relation to the thumb. it would be in relation to the hand at the base of the finger. the relation ship of the finger pitch to the thumb would be rotated x number of degrees. 3/8 left would become more like 1/4 under and 1/16" left as related to the thumb.
In a CLT you set your fingers at what appears a angle to the thumb because of the pitches. your finger is still going in at the angle for 3/8 left. not under at 1/4". it really is a big difference. your thumb kind of fall into the hole.

as a Personal observation as I move around from a stroker to cranker styles. the CLT really benefits a stoker/tweener. My normal release has little side roll. now I can get a lot more with out changing my axis tilt.
I would like to try a mix of Offset thumb and CLT. Get the CLT measurements then off set the thumb 1/4" or so from the first CLT centerline.

Edited on 2/22/2003 10:40 AM
 LuckyLefty
             Posted: 2/22/2003 12:32 PM    
________________________________________
Omega- you got it!
You have defined what happens when one uses the same pitches from the Tgrip to what now happens when you drill these same pitches into the ball with the ball oriented to the fingers line or CLT.
If a person(righty) is 3/8 left middle and 0 forward reverse middle in a T grip and then turns and enters those pitches in to a 1 inch off the center of grip finger line, or 20degree CLT, he is now like 5/16 left and 1/8 forward in the middle finger in relation to the Tgrip line.
If this same righty is 3/8 right ring and 0 forward reverse in a Tgrip and these pitches are then entered along the CLT line. These pitches will now read if measured in relation to the Tgrip about 5/16 right and 1/8 reverse.
What this does is tend to increase axis tilt and turn. When I do CLT I find my track lowers about an inch and that my PAP gets closer to my grip center.
Say I have a 5 1/4 inch pap with Tgrip. Then I will have like a 4 1/2 inch PAP everything the same with CLT.
Of course if I enter forward in my middle finger and reverse in my ring I will also experience the same effect. Of course I will not have my pithces oriented to the pull of my fingers and the comfort that CLT offers but I will have the same effect except for comfort level.
I find that in all reality the CLT is really a version of Thumb offset.
In other words the thumb really is offset under the middle finger in relation to the CLt line.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Lately guys know I'm drilling balls at the little proshop in the back at home.
Having a lot of fun with it.
Top bowlers are coming up all the time with thumb problems and saying you know I go here but I've got this etc.
The number one thing I'm seeing from top bowlers are bruises or callouses under the base of the thumb and pain in this area!
Dangerous!
It appears the trends are to use less and less reverse pitch in the thumb or even to go forward. All with no understanding of how these pitches are suppossed to have some relationship to span.
Many people just want 0 forward/reverse pitch or maybe forward when maybe that is appropriate for their hand or maybe it isn't.
To compound the problem many are now saying I don't like Bevel, Norm Duke doesn't use bevel.
One top bowler around here tried 0 forward reverse for his shorter span and loved it. He loved it so much that he then went to 1/4 inch forward using a custom thumb. He now has a big bruise under his thumb, slight nerve damage, wears a patch there and may have to take a couple of weeks off.
Here are the basic concepts.
Bill Taylor created the following table. It is a great starting point.
It is based on 63 degrees of angle between the top of finger holes to thumb line and the thumb hole forward reverse angle.
Each increase of 1/8 inch of span increases reverse pitch 1/16, and each decrease of 1/8 inch of span decreases reverse pitch 1/16 of an inch.
For reference the table starts at 4 1/4 = 0 forward reverse pitch.
4 inch span = 1/8 forward pitch
4 1/4 span = 0 pitch
4 3/8 = 1/16 reverse
4 1/2= 1/8 reverse
4 5/8 = 3/16 reverse
4 3/4 = 1/4 reverse
4 7/8 = 5/16 reverse
5 = 3/8 reverse
People with dry thumbs, short thumbs (shorter than 2 1/4), and dropping problems should probably go 1/8 forward from the tables.
People with wet thumbs, long thumbs (longer than 2 1/2), and hanging problems not caused by bevel usually should add 1/8 reverse to the tables.
For example I should use about 3/16 reverse at 4 11/16 but I tend to like 1/16 to 1/32 reverse only due to a shorter but very dry thumb that has no problem releasing fast!
Recently being aware of lots of thumb damage in my area I went to 0 with a custom thumb and did not increase the front thumb bevel. One game and already I started to develop a little ping under the thumb. Instantly I jumped on it and applied a light touch of extra front bevel to the front surface(ring finger test) and problem fixed.
One decreases Pitch every 16th of an inch while keeping the span the same it is like making the span 1/8 of an inch longer in feel. Your thumb has to stretch and make it around the lip of the thumb. THis point if left at the same sharpness as it was for a workable span pitch setup will be essentially pointier if left with the same bevel. Note you've decreased your thumb angle to less than 63degrees. Decrease reverse pitch, leave span the same = increase front bevel for safety.
Don't damage YOUR thumb, don't blindly go forward and damage those important nerves in the base of your thumb. Don't copy a PBA or local star they may have a much more relaxed span in relation to their hand than you do.
Pitch should not be viewed in a vacumm. It should be viewed in the context of your span, your tendancy with the ball, and bevel should not be copied either.
Your hand may have the need for lots of bevel or very little based on the amount of webbing you have between your index finger and thumb.
More web = exposed nerves = more bevel. Less web = nerves in hand not web area = less bevel.
Protect that gifted hand of yours.
Don't follow drilling trends blindly without knowing your hand and your proper span!
REgards,
Luckylefty
All assumptions given regarding these statements made earlier
use approx 0 forward reverse pitch on the finger(less than 1/4 variance either way).
I'm aware of this variant of extreme forwards coupled with forward pitch thumbs used sometimes on the tours.
Note that each 3/8 of finger reverse has the feel of shortening the span at least 1/16.
An inch is about the effect of shortening the span 3/16 of an inch at least.
least.
I've noted that by leaving my spans the same and going 1/4 inch forward I can recapture the feeling of a stretched span(which I like) without the wear and tear on my thumb.
Note not all people need bevel, I've pointed out in my post on this drilling section of the forum titled bevling tips from Mo Pinel, (last post out there by me) that some people actually have no web between their thumb and index finger and need virtually nothing. They are as rare as people with 20/5 vision in the general population.
Then there are people like me with web both on the thumb and also towards the index finger, I need bevel on the top of the thumb hole and in to the ball.
Please read that post if this topic interests you there may be some Ideas that may help interested bowlers apply something to their own unique hand.
Around here many of the bowlers looking at Norm Duke's ball on TV or just reading BTM are introducing ideas that can be dangerous. Then the ball driller let's them then say I don't want any bevel Joe 800anaire doesn't use any.
I'm not blaming the ball drillers, but they will not lose customers over this.
Why would you.
So all of a sudden I'm getting the poor the tired the injured thumbs.
All are instantly fixable and the ball is still hanging on their hands and then coming off like butter!
Adjustments of pitch more dramatic than 1/8 off of the tables should be carefully thought out and evaluated by the bowler. More Forward extra bevel often needed.
Less forward are you squeezing??? Or do you just have a real wet thumb?
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS Hope this prevents at least one bowler from getting seriously hurt!
PPS again all comments on span should again be considered never in a vacumm.
A 1/2 inch reverse is a proper amount of reverse for a long or wet thumb in a 5 inch span. In a 6 inch span it is too forward.
Ubrey,
I've just reviewed your post again a little more thoroughly.
I see that you use a 4 1/2 inch span. 1/4 forward and 3/4 to 1inch reverse.
Out of interest I would guess that your normal full fingertip span originally was near 4 3/4 when you used 0 reverse/forward in your fingers.
My guess is that most people of average finger length that we put there last joint about 5/16 of an inch over the lip of their finger holes to allow them to have 0 forward reverse pitch in the fingers. Each 3/8 of inch reverse in the fingers gives the feeling of shortening the span at least 1/16 of an inch per Bill Taylor as I stated above. I believe that you have an adjusted span that is more like 4 1/4(the feeling of 4 1/2 with reverse of near 1 inch being similar to the feeling of 4 1/4 to 4 1/8 with 0 forward reverse finger pitch).
I'm going to guess that your last joint is only over the lip of your finger holes by about 1/8 of an inch.

According to the tables the thumb forward reverse of 0 or maybe 1/16 for what I canll your synthetic span(what it would be if you used 0 finger forward reverse). Minus a factor of 1/8 if you had a fast thumb puts you right in your current territory of 1/4 forward.
Are my guesses correct.
What was your original span before you started going way forward. 4 3/4?
How far is your last joint over the lips of your fingerholes with the amount of reverse you know have?
Do you have much of a web between your thumb and index finger?
I'm interested in these please get back to us.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I'm have a ball at home I just use to try different drilling ideas.
Tonight or tomorrow I'm going to add a 3/8 forward hole for my thumb. I'm sure that this is going to shorten the length that my last joint will comfortably stretch to on the ball. I want to measure that amount and see if jibes with my above calculations. My guess is exactly 1/4 of an inch which could be accomodated mostly by the finger pitch adjustment you made.
I'll get back on my findings.
PPPS Ubrey what were you trying to accomplish with this different grip that the more conventional grip did not accomplish?
I did go and drill a ball with 3/8 forward and 3/8 reverse.
I noted that When I stretched my fingers in the 3/8 reverse version my span to my last joint was 5 1/4 and 5 1/4.
When I placed my thumb in the 3/8 forward version I found that my fingers only stretch to 5 inches.
Just about what I thought, about a 1/4 inch difference in span when the thumb pitch is reduced.
This makes many of my assumpitons above correct.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Thumb lateral pitches are determined by the coke bottle test which I have detailed in a post here called
Thumb lateral pithces(in drilling).
Finger lateral pitches no real formula.
However I have discovered some interesting relationships.
The more left I go with my thumb(under palm) the more my fingers want to be pitched right!
I look at my fingers and see if there is any twisting once in the ball.
Once you find this lateral pitch it never needs to be adjusted unless ones fingers change. Forward and reverse can be changed to effect ball roll however along with corresponding span changes to retain the same feel.
To adjust spans slightly 1/16 forward or reverse, I no longer redrill.
For example to go forward I bevel front and add a shim in back.
To go longer just the opposite. Saves a lot of time!
Can you go to Thumb under lateral post I have found it very valuable.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Ubrey1 was nice enough to message me with the following info that makes sense I think.
His real span is 4 7/8(near 0 finger forward/reverse finger pitch) vs his current 4 1/2.
This shortening was in line with my experiment above of where a dramatic forward pitch vs a strong reverse pitch would shorten the span at least 1/4 of an inch. In his case actually 3/8. The dramatic forward pitch does not allow the hand to stretch as far!
He has also lost flexibility over the years and is partly using reverse because of this problem. I say his real span(near 0 pitch is actually near 4 1/4 with this amount of forward pitch.
It all fits thanks Ubrey1 for your replies back to me.
Note I still believe one should not just go out and apply forward thumb pitch using the same current span that you have. Pitch is not applied in a vacumm.
The span and bowler's tendancy's must be known.
REgards,
Luckylefty

Can you rev-
If you point directly at your index finger when holding a coke bottle then your actual pitch is 1/8 away or left. In between index or middle is 0.
That small of a difference is not big. Most people should be moving around their center starting point for lateral pitch about an 1/8 of an inch either way! No more.
The Dude.
According to the Bill Taylor tables 4 3/4 is 1/4 reverse listed above.
Perfect! You now have the perfect fit according to the tables 63 degrees!
If you were still coming out quick it may be because you have a short or wet thumb and could easily go to 1/8 reverse and not be anything unusual.
What I'm seeing instead is guys using 1/4 forward on spans of 4 1/2.
This can be dangerous without additional bevel unless one makes a compenating dramatic move in reverse on the fingers(which has the effect of shortening the span really). Or increase bevel in the front lip. It does not reduce holding power at all!
Yes as bull stated you mentioned late

Borincano

  • Hero Member
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  • Posts: 1181
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #94 on: August 04, 2004, 01:39:40 PM »
Here is more;

buddy
             Posted: 4/21/2004 11:30 PM    
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CLT....(center line transfer) drilling... For me looks good on paper...that's about it...mainly works for guys with flexible or double jointed thumb.  Borincano
             Posted: 4/22/2004 0:34 AM            
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Go for it Greg and never go back.  Greg T
             Posted: 4/22/2004 0:37 AM    
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I just had the idea because it looks so much more comfortable because thats the natural lay of the hand. Has anyone tried it? Pros? Cons?  Borincano
             Posted: 4/22/2004 0:47 AM            
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I made the change to this type of layout and I finished my first year of league bowling with a 191 average up from a 159. It gives you a complete good feel of the ball in your hand and makes you handle the ball with confidence.  mrbowlingnut
             Posted: 4/22/2004 0:57 AM    
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I use a clt drill with a 1 1/4 offset just changed per instructions of Bill Hall who drilled on the PBA tour for years. It feels great makes you stay under/ below ball longer and comes clean off your thumb. Remember every hand is different and make sure you turn your grips if you use grips slightly sideways to match your offset. I had some grips still straight and after one game my fingers were killing me from pain of not turning them : )) Try one ball with about 1 - 1 1/4 offset off centerline and see how it feels, your driller only needs to plug fingers to make this shift if they know how to set this up properly. I believe pitches stay the same i could be wrong but spans do stay the same for sure. Good luck you will probably love this feel or just hate but i can tell you alot of PBA guys i was told by my driller use an offset drilling of some sort.  x3x0x0xGxAxMxEx
             Posted: 4/22/2004 4:55 AM    
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I am a PBA member and have used that kind of grip for years, and its easier on my hand.....just my thought.
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AWWWWRRRRIIIIIIGGGHHHHHTTTT!!!!!  Mr Buzzsaw UK
             Posted: 4/22/2004 6:36 AM    
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Greg,
Try this. I have been using it for a couple of years now and the feel is awesome.
Centreline Offset Parallel Pitches (CLOPP - my modified version of the CLT or CLO method)
My method of determining CLOPP is by inserting the thumb fully into the ball, then laying the palm of the hand as flat as possible across the top of the ball covering the original finger holes. With the grip centre line pointing away from you and your hand in this position, your fingers would normally be pointing somewhere between 10.30 and 11.30. This usually results in the same span for the middle finger and a slightly extended span on the ring finger. Then draw a line between the two fingers which gives the offset centre line. Original pitches would then be based upon this line. A parallel line is then drawn from the centre of the thumb hole to give the centre line from which thumb pitch is based. When the ball has been drilled, pitches should be measured based upon a standard centre line and entered on the drill chart for future reference.
However, if you hold your hand in position in front of you and duplicate the move of your hand from a standard grip position to laying your palm on the surface of the ball, you will notice that the thumb has a tendency to point further left (RH) and slightly back. Because of this, the pitches will probably need an additional slight adjustment, 3/16 left lateral (RH) is a good starting point.
The reason for my modification of the standard CLT layout is because when you orient the hand in a different direction, it alters not just the pitches on the fingers, but the pitch on the thumb as well and this is not catered for in the standard CLT.
To understand better, try this exercise. Sit in front of a desk or table and place your hand on it with your thumb resting against the edge and IN LINE with your fingers just like when you're holding the ball. The only parts of your hand touching the table should be the base of your thumb, your finger tips and the pad of your index finger. Now flatten your hand to the table and you will notice your thumb kicks to the left . This is the natural position for the thumb when your hand is fully in contact with the ball and is the reason for also adjusting the thumb pitches. Hope this helps you to understand the explanation.
John F
"Practice makes Lucky"
 Goof1073
             Posted: 4/22/2004 8:20 AM    
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I'm not sure if I would call what Greg originally asked about a CLT or not...to me his suggested drilling would be an offsett thumb. Ultimately a CLT is nothing more than a pitch adjustment as you CAN drill it the same way as a T-Grip once you know how the CLT alignment changes the pitches.  TECH SUPPORT
             Posted: 4/22/2004 9:31 AM    
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Mr buzz saw that is a CLT drilling if yo dont believe me I have detailed instuctions with pics to futher illistarte it. Why or how does every one confuse the clt drilling with offsetting thier thumb? A clt has nothing to do with offsetting your thumb it only adjusts your finger pitches to run in line with your arm. Yes the feel is good and less strain on your hand. The only bad thing I have noticed by using it is I increased my rev rate even more because my hand is even more relaxed.
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IN SEARCH OF THE PERFECT TWINS  TECH SUPPORT
             Posted: 4/22/2004 9:38 AM    
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I uploaded it so everyone could see first hand how it is done and maybe end the confusion. Thanks to chris duham for the illistrations.http://12.22.230.41/MicroTech/Hosted/Files-A/2_CLT_DRILLING_INSTRUCTIONS.pdf
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IN SEARCH OF THE PERFECT TWINS  Mr Buzzsaw UK
             Posted: 4/22/2004 9:55 AM    
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Tech Support,
If you read my post you would see that I said it is a modified version of the CLT. With CLT, thumb pitches are still based upon the grip centre line. This makes NO allowance for thumb pitch changes due to the different orientation of the hand.
The method I use aligns thumb pitches with the direction the hand rests on the ball, i.e. a line parallel to the centre line used for drilling the fingers.
Hope this clears up your confusion.
John F.
"Practice makes Lucky"
 LuckyLefty
             Posted: 4/22/2004 10:14 AM    
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I agree with Tech Support -
Two concepts have gotten mixed here.
The first question asked about offsetting thumb.
That is exactly that offsetting thumb!, thumb is moved (under the middle finger usually) and finger pitches are left exactly where they are and thumb pitches are drilled PARALLEL to the thumb to bridge line! (Thumb pitches oriented to the line from center of thumb parallel to the original thumb to bridge line and pointing approx to middle finger depending on amount of offset! This setup often leaves ring finger span now longer and middle finger shorter if done only by a thumb move!
CLT is different, fingers are oriented down the middle finger ring finger line and finger pitches are oriented to this line, the line of natural finger pull.
THE thumb is however pitched still oriented directly up the thumb center to bridge of fingers line. This means in CLT the only difference from out standard T grip setup is the orientation of the finger pitches.
Mr. Buzzsaw UK version is a CLT with adjusted thumb pitch.
A fourth and often practice by thumb offsetters(not clt, and not mr buzzsaw UK's method) is to adjust ring finger and middle finger spans by raising middle finger and shortening ring finger to maintain the original spans from the center of the thumb.
SO 4 distinct methods!
CLT
Offset thumb, no span or finger pitch adjustment
MR. Buzzsaw UK, CLT with thumb pitch adjustment
OFFset thumb with adjusted spans.
Probably as clear as mud!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS there are shared items that begin to happen with offset and clt however, both sets of finger pitches ARE oriented off the center of the thumb.
PPS, for a lot of people CLT is worthless unless finger line faces more than 10 or 15 degrees off the standard Tgrip center line.
PPPS Theory on offset thumb is who's thumb hangs directly under their grip center bridge line. Answer, clearly your local chicken or rooster! Most peoples thumbs hang off to the side of their middle finger when placed on a ball
in a gripping position.
PPPPS Mo Pinel who claims he invented CLT, (he very well might have! he IS an innovator.)
No longer uses pure CLT he just adjusts pitches and orients them to the grip center line! ie what I mean by this is typically if one is a 0 forward reverse finger pitch and you drill these pitches into a ball along the CLT line, one will end up with forward pitch on the middle finger and reverse pitch on the ring finger when measured in relation to the standard T grip line. Therefore Mo just dials in forward on the middle and a touch of reverse on the ring! Brian Omara don't beat me up on this, that's what he does now! This often has the effect of increasing axis tilt!
 TECH SUPPORT
             Posted: 4/22/2004 11:34 AM    
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No I hope it clears up every one elses confusion because i am not the one who was confused. I offer my insight when needed.
As lucky ducky stated, it is a concept of belief and modification that will work for some and not for all. I believe it is a great feeling when you do get the pitches going the right way.It is a big benefit to beable to drill your own stuff so you have time to find what feels good and works for you.
Mr buzzsaw i must have missed the modified part in your post I like to speed read over the bull crap and pick out the finer points so I must have skipped that part.
Tweak tweak and tweak some more untill it feels GOOD. Thats what I do.
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IN SEARCH OF THE PERFECT TWINS
Edited on 4/22/2004 11:26 AM
 Ragnar Floggurass
             Posted: 4/22/2004 12:07 PM    
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I may be thick, but isn't on effect of either a CLT or an offset that you've lengthened your span on one of the fingers? Certainly it is with an offset thumb, and it seems that it would be so with a CLT. Maybe I just need to be actually in the room when someone lays out a CLT to understand what's going on.
For years I used an offset thumb. I quit when my driller convinced me that it was lengthening the ring finger span too much.
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"Those are my principles-- and if you don't like them.... I have others."  Goof1073
             Posted: 4/22/2004 12:20 PM    
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When you use a CLT drilling the span doesn't change at all from the standard T-Grip...just the finger pitches.
If you simply move a thumb over / offset it without moving your fingers...then yes, it would change your span on your ring finger. However, when drilling one from scratch the spans should be drilled according to your T-Grip span. When this is done in most cases it will either make the two finger hole cuts line up or the ring finger will be look slightly dropped.
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-Chris : DJ's Pro Shop Auburn, MA
 TECH SUPPORT
             Posted: 4/22/2004 4:09 PM    
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When you off set your thumb you increase the span on the finger you are going away from. A clt you dont have to increase the span unless you feel more comfortable in it. I never adjusted my span for a clt just the pitches. Did you look @ the pdf I posted a link to. It is a good example of how to do it or what it is.
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IN SEARCH OF THE PERFECT TWINS  mrbowlingnut
             Posted: 4/22/2004 4:22 PM    
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After reviewing the great post by tech support i have a clt drilling with 1 1/4 shift from my original centerline. I am going back to Bill Hall this saturday to see if this is correct for me or if he wants me to just offset my thumb and drop my ring finger down using original spans. Anyway i can tell you a clt with the pitch change feels way better than not getting out of ball clean like the old way.I will repost on the subject if i was suppossed to go with a offset thumb and misunderstood what his instructions for my driller was  
Edited on 4/22/2004 4:15 PM
 LuckyLefty
             Posted: 4/22/2004 4:29 PM    
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Oh Tech Support I agree with you and did not think you were confused at all!
You know the difference between CLT and offset Thumb.
Rags Flogsomeone!
Yes as mentioned in my longwinded post.
A pure thumb offset with no adjustment of current finger position will result in a long ring and a shorter middle finger span.
Another method is to offset thumb first, and then raise middle finger and lower ring. Leaving spans back to the same original span but now the thumb is offset and oriented for pitch purposes more towards the middle finger instead of the bridge. This method is a pure thumb offset but with correctly adjusted spans.
A third method of doing an offset thumb if ball is already drilled is to twist ball so that thumb is now aligned under the middle finger, make sure the middle finger is up, double check spans, (depending on ring finger middle finger span differences spans still may or may not be right), half plug thumb and redrill pitch for thumb up the new thumb pitch line which is parallel to the original tgrip centerline. now half plug fingers and drill along what would be the original tgrip line. Voila offset thumb with no full plug!
REgards,
Luckylefty
 Greg T
             Posted: 4/22/2004 10:38 PM    
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WOW!! This was just an idea I had the other night and had no clue that evetyone is trying this. Everything you've said here is way over my head. I just had a simple idea of moving the thumb in line with my middle finger because if I form a "crablike" gesture with my hand on a table thats where the thumb goes naturally. Most of what you said here is way too exotic for me until I learn a bit about it. Lets start me slowly and say that I just want to align my thumb with my middle finger. I would assume that I would keep the same span on that finger and shorten the ring finger BACK to it's original span. Now, I'm currently using a thumb pitch of 1/8 reverse and 1/4 under palm. Would this stay the same?  Mr Buzzsaw UK
             Posted: 4/22/2004 10:40 PM    
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Hi Guys,
Lefty - Nice explanation identifying the different methods.
Tech - I totally agree with you about the great feeling and tweaking until it feels good for you.
Ragnar - The CLT does not alter spans but my CLOPP does. This is because more of the hand is in contact with the ball allowing better control of ball reaction on release.
Also note that these are purely methods of laying out a ball initially. Once finalised, measurements should be taken from the normal T-line to make future drillings simple. (Not all drillers are necessarily fully conversant with the various techniques, plus the bowler may not know exactly which method has been used.)
I find this subject interesting as there are so many views on it, but at the end of the day 'whatever works for you' is always the best option.
John F.
"Practice makes Lucky"
 Greg T
             Posted: 4/22/2004 11:36 PM    
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Are there any good sheets and documentations on these layouts? My driller doesnt have a clue. When I told him what I was thinking he said I was nuts. I need good pics and text as you would find in a drilling sheet.  Borincano
             Posted: 4/23/2004 11:05 AM            
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This explanation is from a driller named Jim not mine.
That is a very interesting question. Thanks for asking, and thanks for your confidence in my ability to provide an answer.
CLT stands for Center Line Transposition. The Center Line is a line drawn through the center of the thumb hole all the way through the center of the bridge between the finger holes. The line is drawn on the ball as a guide for the ball driller to know exactly where to put the gripping holes.
There are two ways to think about CLT, which is also sometimes called the Collier Grip and sometimes called Thumb Offset grip. Before I get into those two ways let me further define CLT and T-Line.
The term Thumb Offset gives a clue as to what CLT is all about. If you look at a ball that is drilled with CLT the thumb hole will be more under the middle finger hole than the ring finger hole.
The T-Line layout will place the thumb hole under and between the middle finger and ring ringer holes.
When a hand is measured the finger holes are placed at specific distances from the thumb hole. For the sake of the example lets say the middle finger is 4 inches from the thumb hole and the ring finger is 4 1/8 inches from the thumb hole.
One way of thinking of CLT is this. If the line is only there for the purpose of drilling the ball and the finger holes are going to be at these specific distances then the CLT is only an optical illusion. Try this yourself on a piece of paper. Draw a straight line, which is called the center line. At one end of the center line draw a circle for the thumb hole, 4 inches from the edge of that circle draw another circle slightly to the side of the line for the middle finger hole, now draw the final circle 4 1/8 inches from the edge of the thumb hole adjacent to the ring finger hole but on the other side of the line.
So CLT is only an optical illusion then?. Well maybe it is and maybe it is not. When you look at a ball you only see the surface of the ball. So on the surface CLT is an optical illusion. That must be the case because the lines are drawn on the surface of the ball and holes are viewed at the surface of the ball.
However inside the ball the holes are drilled at different angles. The secret of CLT is not what can be seen but what can not be seen. The angles (pitches) of the thumb hole and the finger holes are what make CLT what it is.
Your first question is how do you layout a ball for CLT. The answer is the same way you layout a T-Line fitting. The second question is what advantage does CLT have. Those who prefer CLT say that it makes the ball lay on the hand a little differently and the grip is more comfortable.
As far as I am concerned if my customer wants CLT for a more comfortable fit that is what is drilled.. If the customer wants T-Line for the same reason that is what is drilled. It makes no difference to me because I have to drill holes at angles anyway, it is only a question of which set of angles I use.
Edited on 4/23/2004 3:34 PM
 LuckyLefty
             Posted: 4/23/2004 11:24 AM    
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Again,
I have detailed the differences between.
1. CLT done in a Tgrip
2. Thumb offset, no adjustment of spans
3. Mr. Buzzsaw CLT with thumb pitch adjustment
4. Thumb offset with adjustment of spans.*****
No 4 is what the main questioner asked about.
Just moving thumb!!!
Yes Greg T. Just move thumb over under middle finger!
Yes Greg T, one should now shorten ring and lengthen middle to maintain original spans.
Yes GT thumb pitches are now aligned up a line parallel to original T grip line.
Yes, GT thumb pitches CAN be entered in along this line exactly as they were before.
Will, they be comfortable? No Greg, they probably will not be comfortable and you will very often in this process settle in on a new set of thumb pitches.
What they are I don't know.
I believe that is the answer to your Thumb offset question. Which I believe is variant #4 above.
REgards,
LUckylefty
PS have I mentioned this anywhere above? A CLT is NOT a THUMB offset!? A thumb offset is not a CLT!
 Mr Buzzsaw UK
             Posted: 4/23/2004 10:29 PM    
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LuckyLefty,
Did you try my layout? We haven't spoken for a while.
I will be over there for two PBA Senior stops in a couple of weeks. I fly into DC on the 7th and drive up to Sterling Heights for the Senior US Open then back down to Manassas. If you get the opportunity why not stop by and say Hi.
Hope you can make it.
John F.

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"Practice makes Lucky"
 Greg T
             Posted: 4/23/2004 11:37 PM    
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Yes, Lefty, that was the original question. Thanks very much to all for the input and all the info but somehow it did lose track of what I really wanted to do. I just want to try moving the thumb hole to align with my middle finger because it looks more natural.
Thank you very much, Lefty for a quick and concise digest of what I need. In your opinion of where to start, would I use less under palm pitch or more? I would think less because the angle of the thumb changes and straightnes out as you move it towards the middle finger.

bullred
             Posted: 4/24/2004 0:15 AM    
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The Bob Strickland Offset (which I think he patented) is using two centerlines.
CL #1 is drawn. The ball is rotated to a #2 CL drawn 1" to the side of CL #1 (LH or RH) Thumb is drilled 1/2" reverse and 1/2" right lateral for RH and 1/2" reverse and 1/2" left lateral for LH using CL #2 as center line. Rotate ball back to CL #1 to drill fingers with normal pitches or to feel. Span will need to be lengthened an 1/8" at least(to feel)
The Brunswick Offset was to draw CL, machine set to zero. Aliegn at thumbhole mark, crank machine over (don't rotate ball) 1/2" lateral (LH or RH). Drill thumb. Crank back to CL and drill fingers normal or to feel. This was using a lot with early conventional grips.
Two types of early conventional and semi layouts were:
Thumb 1/4" under Fingers 1/2" away.
Thumb 1/4" reverse Fingers 1/4" under
Lateral pitches to feel
For low flare balls I still drill balls for people who want different reactions from same ball with an old trick. Position CG at 3/4 oz. from mark on centerline. Drill same size holes for fingers at 0/0 on original mark. Using the centerline, layout two grips on each side of fingers. Drill one of the thumbholes shorter span, pitch thumb under some or zero for later release.
Drill second thumb wider span, some reverse for early release.
Just as a thought, nothing new out there, just stuff reinvented from the past.
 Mr Buzzsaw UK
             Posted: 4/24/2004 0:39 AM    
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Greg,
I would say yes, you would have less under palm. How much depends on the flexibility of your thumb. You really need your ball driller to check this out. Why not print out copies of my previous description, lefties post identifying the differences between the methods and download the CLT .pdf file from Tech Support's link and print that too. Show them all to your ball driller, he SHOULD understand what's going on and between you decide what is likely to be best for you.
Hope this helps.
John F.
"Practice makes Lucky"
 LuckyLefty
             Posted: 4/24/2004 0:58 AM    
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I agree with John, one will with a thumb offset probably end up settling on less lateral under palm and a touch more reverse than where they started from in a perfect T grip regular drilling.
REgards,
Luckylefty
 Greg T
             Posted: 4/24/2004 8:12 PM    
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Okay, I guess I'm kinda lost. Where do I find that tech support link?  TECH SUPPORT
             Posted: 4/24/2004 11:46 PM    
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http://12.22.230.41/MicroTech/Hosted/Files-A/2_CLT_DRILLING_INSTRUCTIONS.pdf
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IN SEARCH OF THE PERFECT TWINS  LuckyLefty
             Posted: 4/25/2004 0:04 AM    
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Again to keep all things in their proper place.
This diagram is great! It is of CLT not what you asked about but a great set of diagrams.What you asked about was simply thumb offset. Done simply by moving thumb under middle finger! Easy but different from link above.
REgards,
Luckylefty
 Greg T
             Posted: 4/25/2004 0:27 AM    
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Okay. Checked out the link and it looks pretty much like the CLT still uses the line between the fingers but chages the angle of the fingers. I think I would like to try the offset thumb first. Thanx a bunch for the input. When I do finally try this out I'll post a bit about it.

Borincano

  • Hero Member
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  • Posts: 1181
Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #95 on: August 04, 2004, 10:01:54 PM »
I think I have it now.

mumzie -- If there is one site that has all the info available, I'd like to know where it is too. Until then, the site below has a lot of info in the "Mario's Secrets" section. Good luck -- JohnP

http://www.rollrite.co.uk/index.php


this should make for some good reading.....
http://www.bowlingfans.com/jeff/ballreactionbasics.html


As many of you guys know that is JeffMop from this site!
I hope he doesn't mind me letting that out!
Geez and I thought that I was knowledgeable on this stuff!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS and remembering that using these ideas is not completely a science but also an art to some extent! I have had balls that have had approximately similar specs and drilled them both with a mass bias say towards the VAL. One would turn enough and hit and the other won't quite get there. That second one required a slightly more stacked drilling to get the same turn.
In general there is no doubt that most balls today can turn the corner when drilled label leverage or stacked with a 3 inch pin to PAP or 4 inch pin to pap.
It is all the other drillings that may or may not work on a particular condition.
And how does one blend control with power for all the other less basic drillings and still maintain hit! It is a delicate balancing act that truly is an art combined with the post referenced.
Other important features are core shapes, specs, and flip blocks and their densities!


What I didn't say well is that JeffMop from this site compiled the site above!

I have a lot more to offer on this topic and some of it may be overkill and some is probably boring but if others are REALLY interested I can give a lot of insight I've developed after drilling about 75 balls for myself in the last one year and a half AND sometimes trying multiple drills and weight holes on some.
I think there is a lot to core shape (which can be seen) and densities (which can't be seen) but which can be seen in ball roll that are very important.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS if people are really REALLY interested I could post some excess over the top experiments and observations I've made!
PPS I could probably do something over the Holidays.

OK, I'm going to sort of go a section at a time!
I think the first place to start is with weight blocks.
Note pictures don't tell the entire story but they can tell a lot.
The hidden factors can be the density statistics particularly of the flip blocks.
Anyway lets start with a few core blocks.
OH, my plan is to go in this order.
1.Core blocks, 2.drillings for a certain reaction, and 3.differences of right vs. left balls. 4. Weight holes what I've found that works for me!
A picture can tell a story!
Here's two weight blocks at the extremes of reaction.
http://www.columbia300.com/gear/balls.cfm?bid=84
Yep the Reaction Rip, a king of high rg, skid flip, long down the lane big backend reaction.
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ball.asp?ballid=293
Yep, the Storm Tour Power, the ultimate benchmark ball, very low rg, virtually no flip block (same density flip block), moderate differential. You can try to drill this ball to go long and flip and it ain't gonna happen. It can't go long and it can't flip!
The two balls above are polar opposites.
The Rip has a tall skinny weight block with sharp edges, dense flip blocks on the top and bottom. Conceptually I think of these balls as very tall book stands. Tall with books on the top shelf, these balls are very unstable and want to tip and tip hard toward the pocket. If you've seen this ball on the alleys that's how it acts. Not much early rev, very little midlane and then a sharp strong move to the hole.
The Tour Power on the other hand has rounded edges, a flip block that is no denser than center of the core and even when drilled stacked there is only one word to describe this weight block movement is smooth - not a jerk in sight and you can't make one. This ball can be drilled straight up, just decide how many boards you want to cover and it will arc on anything and will love oiled heads and strong running back ends. On carry down you’re going to probably be wishing that you could carry the corners. You can't!
Another even more extreme weight block is the weight block from the Columbia Scout Reactive.
http://www.columbia300.com/gear/balls.cfm?bid=97
This ball has an even higher rg than the RIP and gets another few feet down the lanes and then flips like a banshee if dry can be found! This ball to get to roll early FUGHET ABOUT it!
Another in the LOW RG area but with some POP is for instance the Vortex 2 Particle.
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ball.asp?ballid=1411
This ball has every facet in a bowling ball to make it strong in every phase of the lane, very low rg, dense flip blocks, some sharp edges, some good strong differential, and a lot of coverstock bite.
This ball has it in every phase of the lane, heads mids and backend is strong and powerful in every phase of the lane.
One last one is sort of a medium ball.
Or should I say medium Core.
http://www.ballreviews.com/Reviews/Reviews.asp?ManufacterID=2&BallID=252
This is the core for the Raging Red Fuze. This ball has almost all the same attributes of a strong core as the Vortex Particle above. The only difference is that this ball has a higher rg. It revs just a little less in the heads than the Vortex II. Note these fuze cores were very similar all thru the Fuze line - Fuze Detonator, Raging Red Fuze, Fuze Ignitor, Fuze Eliminator. The only differences between these cores were some density differences.
These cores are classic medium low rg cores, with strong midlanes, sharp edges on the weight block and strong backend.
Or as I call them, Churn em, burn em, turn em cores that will work on many of your wetter conditions particularly on synthetic lanes.
These are really the sets of cores to be familiar with.
OUR Extreme cores.
Super high RG:
--------------
1.Reaction Rip, high rg = little rev in heads, skinny body = very little
midlane, dense flip blocks = lots of flip to the hole.
2.Columbia Scout R, super rg = all skid in heads, no body = almost no midlane a straight line to the breakpoint really, and good diff and dense flip blocks = tons of flip. Your goal with this ball is to control break point, will it be soon enough to hit!
SUPER LOW RG:
-------------
3. Vortex Particle, super low rg = all rev in the heads, round body = tons of midlane, dense flip blocks and good differential = lots of strong angular movement at the back. This ball is strong in EVERY phase of ball movement.
4. Tour Power, super low rg = all rev in the heads, round body = tons of midlane, NO dense flip blocks and moderately low differential = only backend that the lane gives it. To sum this ball up, strong heads, strong midlane, SMMMMOOOOOOOOTHH backend. Try to find a way to drill to create anything else with this ball!
Medium RG:
ALL Fuze balls except the Purple.
These balls have medium low rg, medium high differential, and angular edges. These balls churn in the medium heavy oil heads, start to burn in to the lane in the midlane, and good turn. Not in the top of the scale in any of these categories but on the stronger side of medium in every area.
One more example and this in the latest weight block technology going.
http://www.ballreviews.com/Reviews/Reviews.asp?ManufacterID=11&BallID=394
Yep the X factor Deuce.
These balls have medium low rg, medium angularity in the core shape, and extremely high rg and medium mass bias due to the different density vertical pucks lying next to each other.
These balls have good rev on medium heavy oil, good strong midlanes and backends that are out of this world and can generate a tremendous move even on carrydown on synthetic lanes. In general drillings on this ball will be normal and then a solution will have to be come up with to balance the backend potential to the bowlers style and plan of attack!
That's all for now!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS take a look at the pictures and read the densities and look at the flip blocks and see if some of this makes sense to all.
PPS I note many of you will be right with me on this and maybe way ahead of me!

Edited on 12/26/2003 5:09 PM


Mumzie:
quote:

I get soooo confused - pin in or out cg in, or kicked. PAP, 4x8, etc. Is there one place to go that would have all the info?
Pin in means blah. Causes the ball to do this...
Pin out means blah blah. Causes the ball to do that.
CG in means...
CG out means...
How to measure PAP?
Where to put a weight hole for different effects

This may not be "all" the info, but there's a heck of a lot. Probably more than you need if you're not drilling your own stuff.
www.bowlingcoach.com
--------------------
Any resemblance to political correctness is purely coincidental, unintentional and probably a mistake on the part of the reader.
Admit nothing - deny everything - make counter accusations

Just took a quick cursory look at the information there and it looks voluminous!
I will get to it.
Anyway I've probably bored most to tears. Mine won't be that long, four or five total posts.
Oh, where did my information come from?
1. Revolutions 2
2. Mo Pinel See if, Feel it, Do It.
3. MoRich drill sheets.
4. Brunswick drilling sheets and Seven Popular drill layouts.
5. Gravity Balance system from Lane#1
6. Ebonite technical posts including weight hole item.
7. Core descriptions from www.bowlingballreviews.com
8. Denny Torgenson materials both purchased and read.
9. Mario of Rollrite UK, who uses a lot of Denny Torgenson concepts
10. Synthesis of all above by my pea brain.
11. Experiments on the lane and a very detailed sports eye.
Before I go any further I want to state I agree with much of what is in Revolutions 2 but I think that one must realize that at the time written Chip Zielke had primarily been with Brunswick and it is primarily an excellent compilation of Brunswick positions on drilling and theory.
What is below is my compilation of what I have found works and effects ball roll for me and from watching many other bowlers and their drillings.
Oh the question, why all of that core stuff above? Well I think it is important for a bowler to know if you have an extreme core, and if you do at one end of the spectrum are you? Or do you have a middle of the road type of core.
It is going to be important for one to understand that if they are at an extreme end of the spectrum. Which drillings and why are probably going to be good or bad for that ball.
For example The Vortex 2 particle above. This is an extreme ball.
Strongest coverstock, lowest rg, strong high differential with dense sharp edged flip blocks all leads to strength in all parts of the lane.
To place and early roll drilling and then add more flip with a weightblock may lead us to create a ball that can only be used once every two to three years!
The same with the opposite end of the spectrum Reaction Rip. To take this ball and drill it to go super long and flip might overemphasize the properties of this ball and get a skid flip reaction that always looks exciting but maybe might not match up very often to most lane conditions.
So onward to drilling configurations.
The most important spec in drilling is pin to pap distance!
The chart contained both in Revolutions 2 and in Mo Pinel's material is the following.
Pin to Pap distance.
0 no flare extremely early roll, lowest rg drilling
1 1/8 inch = 1/3 flare potential of the core early roll drilling
2 1/4 inch = 2/3 flare potential of the core EARLY roll drilling
3 3/8 inch = 100% of the core flare potentila, flare early mids and late.
4 1/2 inch = 2/3 flare potential of the core later on the lane than the 3 3/8.
5 5/8 inch = 1/3 flare potential of the core later on the lane than the 4 1/2.
6 3/4 inch = 0 flare potential but pin is in the initial track, this is the highest rg drilling.
To elaborate a little on the extremes above. Chip Zielke in Revolutions 2 gives a great example of a weight block being like a rolling pin.
a pin on pap drilling or a 0 pin to pap distance is much like taking your rolling pin(weight block) laying it completely on its side and rolling it accross the floor(or lane in this case). The ball rolls much easier as whatever the low rg of the ball is the statistic you are now using.
Your rolling pin looks like this.
xxxxxxxxxxx|---------------------------|
xxxxxxxxxxx|..................................|
xxxxxxx|.............................................|
xxxxxxxxxxx|..................................|
xxxxxxxxxxx|---------------------------|
Laying straight on its side. In the example of the Vortex 2 particle above if drilled like this the ball has an RG of 2.46 right now. It is using it's low RG or what is called it's X or horizontal coordinate. To measure the ability of the ball to roll. Also since the pin is completely stable there is no tendancy of the pin to migrate to a stable position therefore the flare is 0.
If we drill the Reaction Rip like this the ball will have an rg of 2.584.
Also with no flare potential.
Now lets say we stand both these cores, weight blocks, or rolling pins vertical balls up and place the pin 6 3/4 from the PAP. Now the weightblock is standing straight up. Vertical. The y coordinate or height now takes over. This ball will resist rolling compared to the other one with the rolling pin on its side.
After all the weight block is standing straight up.
The rolling pin looks like this.
....|
.|......|
.|......|
.|......|
.|......|
.|......|
.|......|
.|......|
.|......|
....|
In the examples given above The Vortex II particle is now rolling with an RG of
2.46 +.046 (differential,more on this later)= 2.506 rg. This is the highest rg drilling for this ball. Or the most resistant to rolling drilling for this ball.
For the reaction Rip this drilling will be 2.584. + .057 = 2.641.
This ball will resist rolling in comparison to it's low rg drilling of 2.584, it will also resist rolling quite a bit in relation to even the high rg drilling of the Vortex II particle.
As far as ability to roll the reaction rip when drilled staight up in the track, will have about the same rg as a scout reactive when drilled 0 pin to pap. In other words. A scout reactive when drilled 0 pin to pap will have an RG of 2.635 the Reaction Rip when drilled 6 3/4 will have an rg of 2.641.
One with the weightblock sideways, the other with the weightblock straight up!
Neither ball will flare! As there is no imbalance.
Now how do we create imbalance!
Well the easiest way is to create maximum imbalance!!! Let's put the pin about 1/2 of the way in between both stable positions.
3 3/8 from the PAP. This is 1/2 of the distance from stable on the PAP or 1/2 of the distance from stable in the track!
This ball when drilled like this is going to want to attempt to migrate towards stability!
(To be continued soon).
Lucky

Anyway
Edited on 12/27/2003 1:38 PM

So,
Now we've covered two aspects.
1.Cores, and what are the extremes of cores.
2. Weight blocks and possible pin positions. and two extreme pin positions both with no flare, pin on pap(earliest roll and lowest rg) and pin on track(latest roll and highest rg).
NOW common drilling techniques.
First move always is to select your pin position.
3 3/8 from the PAP is the strongest position for every ball and maximizes flare all the way down the lane. Because energy is being used in the early part of the lane this drilling may hook the most, but often doesn't appear it to the naked eye because the hook is ALL the way down the lane.
The MOST common pin position seen in most league conditions is either 4 or 4 1/2 inches from the PAP. This pin position works on most league conditons and is exciting to watch for most bowlers because it tends to give 2/3 of the flare potential of the ball but to preserve energy and flare to the later part of the lane!
So first I choose how many boards I want to cover. As a moderate handed person(about 15 revs and slower speed) it is rare that I use a 3 3/8 pin position.
It usually just covers too many boards and forces me to swing a lot of boards when often there is an easier way to play the lane, straighter up boards.
If I see most of the good players at a center only playing small swings at particular house I will usually go at least 3 3/4 or out to 4 1/2.
If I were a cranker I would use a different set of parameters say 4 1/4 out more to 5 3/4 for the typical house shot. If I were weaker handed these 3 3/8 drillings can work!
I'll come back to other pin positions in the next section but let's now talk about core orientation in relation to pin position.
Maximizing the weight block potential!
--------------------------------------
When a weightblock is straight up or stacked in relation to one's pap. This maximizes the movement potential of the core. In other words a 4 X 4 drilling for me, a 5 X 5 a 3 3/4 X 3 3/4 are going to give me all the motion a weightblock can give at the break point. A concept I use in my mind is that I have a bookcase. If the bookcase is straight up. And let's say it has a lot of differential or potential instability. Maybe I've made it tall with a very narrow base. Maybe I've added a loaded with books top shelf(flip block).
AN example above that fit's this description was the reaction rip weight block.
Tall, (high rg y axis(or height), small base(much lower low rg(or x axis), and a high differential(tall and thin base) with a loaded top shelf(dense flip block), what do I get just like a tall thin book case with books only in the top shelf I create a situation where the bookcase(weightblock) is very instable(wants to tip), and can fall a long way(tall and thin remember), and will(we've loaded only the top shelf. What one gets in this Reaction Rip, ball is a dramatic sharp and late movement at the breakpoint if we place the book shelf straight up! Take a moment and go look at the picture referenced above!
If on the other hand I take a lower and wider book case. Say the Tour Power from above and stack it. And let's say we load all the shelfs, this book case is much more balanced, much more stable and evenly loaded. This book shelf does not have a tendancy to tip, and when it does it is not as tall and will fall more gradually and not as dramatically. Even if we stack it, take advantage of all of it's potential it will only fall or turn very smoothly and evenly.
Therefore, weightblocks positioned in a 12 oclock orientation or as Denny Torgenson calls it 75 degrees(pap to pin and pin to cg(mass bias) angle.
These will give one the maximum reaction at the break point from any given weightblock. Other weightblocks to check out to see that will NOT give dramatic reactions at the breakpoint even when stacked are the Columbia Pulse's, note the thicker middle and lack of dense flip blocks.
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ballreview.asp?r=3934
Or the Dynothane Remedy(stronger than the pulse but more midlane than backend.
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ball.asp?ballid=39
Again see how weightblock shape determines shape on the lane.
Both of the above blocks are thick in the middle with not so prominent flip blocks. Both ball when drilled will have strongish midlanes and weaker backends, the Pulse even less than the Dynothane Remedy.
So anyway drilling a weightblock straight up give one all of the balls potential to what one would say come around the corner!!!! This means carry even from inside angles!
So a weightblock drilled straight up gives us all the ability of the ball to come around the corner or carry from inside!
WEightblock oriented like this.
12 Oclock
/ |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Now everything depends on the balls potential, in the examples given above it is easy to see how the Ability to come around the corner would be rated like this:
MOst to least:
Reaction Rip
Vortex II Particle
Dynothane Remedy (not a lot)
Tour Power(almost none)
Pulse(Virtually none except for the heaviest handed on flying backends).
None of this means a ball is BAD. It only means that one ball is a driver and another ball is a wedge. Each tool has it's place!
CORE POSITION # 2.
10:30.
10:30 12:00
a|a-a--a---a----a-----a------a----
This core position decreases the potential of the ball.
typical notation for this layout is something like 4 X 3, 4 X 2 1/2, 5 X 3 1/2.
First notation in a 4 X 3 say 4 is pin to pap distance, second say 3 is cg to PAP.

Having trouble illustrating 10:30 weightblock, to be continued!!!
Edited on 12/31/2003 7:39 AM

Interesting stuff.
Why, o why? do I feel so many tangential philosophical questions coming on? Tell me to take these to another thread if appropriate.
- Generally speaking, do you like the idea of drilling a ball at one of the extremes to fit its personality or to mellow it?
Example: letting the Rip be what it wants to be by stacking it over bridge vs. rounding off the breakpoint a little by putting the CG out?
Some things in the middle don't care. Example: you could do nearly anything to a Tour Power and have a playable ball. Other things in the middle seem to tell you exactly what they want. Examples: I always thought the original black Spirit would come alive in a 4 x 2. Right now, I think Hot Wire would be even better for me in 1:30.
My thinking on this is confused by all the examples and counterexamples I've seen. I guess I'd have to say "mellow it". I do a lot better with pearls when they are smoothed off a little. I think a Rip stacked would be awful to try to play. OTOH, I once tried to fight a ball's nature by drilling a RevMaster high RG, thought it had an awful reaction.
- On the general subject of matching up drillings to preferred line, I had heard the adage: label to play down and in, stacked to play the oil line, 10:30 to swing. I have examples and counterexamples. Any thoughts on this?

OK, Been crazy lately and have a little more time to put a little more here.
10:30 drilling For drawings coming later I designate this to be a CG towards PAP drilling.
Well don't seem to be able to easily dry a picture but this is a drilling where the cg is kicked out towards one's pap. In relation to the pin. Or a line from the bottom of the weightblock towards the pin points to 10:30 on a clock.
For the more elegant stylist amongst us(lefties) this drilling is called a 1:30.
The effect of all these drilling is to reduce potential! I like to think of it again with the bookcase example above as the bookcase is starting out already partially fallen. It it was a 6 shelf bookcase it now is only a 4shelf bookcase and cannot fall as far. In addition the weightblock instead of being straight up is laying on its side and is approaching being perpindicular to ones' track. NATURALLY this drilling will roll earlier than a stacked(even if pin position is the same pin to pap distance).
Therefore, two drillings with the same pin to pap say 4 1/4 and both on the same ball, the 10:30 drilling will rev sooner(weightblock is laying sideways), and move earlier and actually look like it rounds the corner earlier(it does), but then when it makes it final move it will just roll to the hole. The move is less angular to the hole than the stacked drilling. Called hook set!
This drilling is fantastic for lefties(heavier head oil with stronger backends often), fresh conditions(heavy head oil with strongish backends) and spinners and low trackers(to get the ball rolling earlier) not so skiddy which their action tends to cause. It is also good for bowlers with strong axis rotation if backends are strong enough. Another name for this drilling is hook set!
This type of drilling is usually garbage for up the back type players(rolls too early) and high trackers without a lot of axis rotation. Too much energy burn!
The problem with this drilling is carry or getting enough reaction.
Often one will be able to tell very quickly with this drilling whether it is going to carry or if it is going to leave weak corner pin leaves right away.
See that pin in the channel in front of your 10 pins righies? OR see the 4 pin in front of the 7 pin lefties. If you've got this ball, and you throw a couple of these in practice put this ball in the bag quick! You need a drilling that is going to get you higher on the head pin. You see the nature of the drilling because of the rolly backend or hook set action is to bring one in a little lighter on the headpin.
This is a drilling that has worked fantastic for me.
How to tell if it is going to win, er work!
--------------------------------------------
This ball setup I actually used in a great moment for me. Situation, big tournament, on the lanes with some of the biggest winners in our area. All with recent 800s and multitournament wins to boot. Condition wet heads and big fresh stripped backends.
All start hitting the pocket easy, I notice other bowlers getting either tremendous carry and then followed by a split, like a 4 9. Each has to move quickly even in practice and also throw hard to mute reaction at the back.
Grab this hook set ball and spend all day creaping up low on the head pin with tremendous mix. Light will carry all day when the backends are flying like this! Surrounding greats all bowl well but average about two splits a game using stacked and label drillings. Which are getting higher on the head pin.
SUMMARY on the 10:30 or 45 degree drilling.
-------------------------------------------
This drilling will go earlier and finish less than one's stacked drilling. It will finish lower on the head pin and the first sign of it taking out too much of the energy of your core is weak corner pin pinging. One can actually take and use this drilling all day and hit the pocket and never really carry and say, "What happened, I couldn't miss!".
VARIATIONS on a theme
---------------------
In general players with under 30 degrees axis rotation will not have much use for these drillings, they use up enough energy in the heads on their own and just usually can't carry with these drillings hardly at all!
The variation above called a 45degree driling. The more the cg out the less the degree. ie a cg out about 2 inches from stacked is called a 30 degree drilling then a 25 degree drilling then finally cg on the pin to pap drilling is called a 0 degeree drilling or axis leverage drilling. Each reduction in degree from stacked or what is called a 75 degree drilling is anincrease in the hook set effect. Making the ball roll and set earlier and finish with less less and less!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS more to come.

Edited on 1/13/2004 7:58 AM

--------------------

I just want 2C was'zzub.
____________________________________

I am the SGT Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing!"


MI 2 AZ

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #96 on: August 05, 2004, 02:44:23 AM »
Okay, here's a more complete version.  Sorry that this message system loses the spacing and that the original posters' names were not copied (I kept getting html script).  
__________________________________________

DRILLING INFO


I get soooo confused - Pin In or Out, CG In, or kicked. PAP, 4x8, etc.
Is there one place to go that would have all the info?
Pin in means blah. Causes the ball to do this...
Pin out means blah blah. Causes the ball to do that.
CG in means...
CG out means...
How to measure PAP?
Where to put a weight hole for different effects
And so on.
I can figure out that one layout does something different than another (duh), but when someone asks me how I want a ball laid out, I don't have a clue where to start.
When would I ask for a pin in ball? pin out? more top weight? less?
You get the idea.

mumzie -- If there is one site that has all the info available, I'd like to know where it is too. Until then, the site below has a lot of info in the "Mario's Secrets" section. Good luck -- JohnP

http://www.rollrite.co.uk/index.php


this should make for some good reading.....
http://www.bowlingfans.com/jeff/ballreactionbasics.html


As many of you guys know that is JeffMop from this site!
I hope he doesn't mind me letting that out!
Geez and I thought that I was knowledgeable on this stuff!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS and remembering that using these ideas is not completely a science but also an art to some extent!  I have had balls that have had approximately similar specs and drilled them both with a mass bias say towards the VAL.  One would turn enough and hit and the other won't quite get there. That second one required a slightly more stacked drilling to get the same turn.
In general there is no doubt that most balls today can turn the corner when drilled label leverage or stacked with a 3 inch pin to PAP or 4 inch pin to pap.
It is all the other drillings that may or may not work on a particular condition.
And how does one blend control with power for all the other less basic drillings and still maintain hit! It is a delicate balancing act that truly is an art combined with the post referenced.
Other important features are core shapes, specs, and flip blocks and their densities!


What I didn't say well is that JeffMop from this site compiled the site above!

I have a lot more to offer on this topic and some of it may be overkill and some is probably boring but if others are REALLY interested I can give a lot of insight I've developed after drilling about 75 balls for myself in the last one year and a half AND sometimes trying multiple drills and weight holes on some.
I think there is a lot to core shape (which can be seen) and densities (which can't be seen) but which can be seen in ball roll that are very important.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS if people are really REALLY interested I could post some excess over the top experiments and observations I've made!
PPS I could probably do something over the Holidays.

OK, I'm going to sort of go a section at a time!
I think the first place to start is with weight blocks.
Note pictures don't tell the entire story but they can tell a lot.
The hidden factors can be the density statistics particularly of the flip blocks.
Anyway lets start with a few core blocks.
OH, my plan is to go in this order.
1.Core blocks, 2.drillings for a certain reaction, and 3.differences of right vs. left balls. 4. Weight holes what I've found that works for me!
A picture can tell a story!
Here's two weight blocks at the extremes of reaction.
http://www.columbia300.com/gear/balls.cfm?bid=84
Yep the Reaction Rip, a king of high rg, skid flip, long down the lane big backend reaction.
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ball.asp?ballid=293
Yep, the Storm Tour Power, the ultimate benchmark ball, very low rg, virtually no flip block (same density flip block), moderate differential. You can try to drill this ball to go long and flip and it ain't gonna happen. It can't go long and it can't flip!
The two balls above are polar opposites.
The Rip has a tall skinny weight block with sharp edges, dense flip blocks on the top and bottom. Conceptually I think of these balls as very tall book stands. Tall with books on the top shelf, these balls are very unstable and want to tip and tip hard toward the pocket. If you've seen this ball on the alleys that's how it acts. Not much early rev, very little midlane and then a sharp strong move to the hole.
The Tour Power on the other hand has rounded edges, a flip block that is no denser than center of the core and even when drilled stacked there is only one word to describe this weight block movement is smooth - not a jerk in sight and you can't make one. This ball can be drilled straight up, just decide how many boards you want to cover and it will arc on anything and will love oiled heads and strong running back ends. On carry down you’re going to probably be wishing that you could carry the corners. You can't!
Another even more extreme weight block is the weight block from the Columbia Scout Reactive.
http://www.columbia300.com/gear/balls.cfm?bid=97
This ball has an even higher rg than the RIP and gets another few feet down the lanes and then flips like a banshee if dry can be found! This ball to get to roll early FUGHET ABOUT it!
Another in the LOW RG area but with some POP is for instance the Vortex 2 Particle.
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ball.asp?ballid=1411
This ball has every facet in a bowling ball to make it strong in every phase of the lane, very low rg, dense flip blocks, some sharp edges, some good strong differential, and a lot of coverstock bite.
This ball has it in every phase of the lane, heads mids and backend is strong and powerful in every phase of the lane.

One last one is sort of a medium ball.
Or should I say medium Core.
http://www.ballreviews.com/Reviews/Reviews.asp?ManufacterID=2&BallID=252
This is the core for the Raging Red Fuze. This ball has almost all the same attributes of a strong core as the Vortex Particle above. The only difference is that this ball has a higher rg. It revs just a little less in the heads than the Vortex II. Note these fuze cores were very similar all thru the Fuze line - Fuze Detonator, Raging Red Fuze, Fuze Ignitor, Fuze Eliminator. The only differences between these cores were some density differences.
These cores are classic medium low rg cores, with strong midlanes, sharp edges on the weight block and strong backend.
Or as I call them, Churn em, burn em, turn em cores that will work on many of your wetter conditions particularly on synthetic lanes.
These are really the sets of cores to be familiar with.
OUR Extreme cores.
Super high RG:
--------------
1.Reaction Rip, high rg = little rev in heads, skinny body = very little
midlane, dense flip blocks = lots of flip to the hole.
2.Columbia Scout R, super rg = all skid in heads, no body = almost no midlane a straight line to the breakpoint really, and good diff and dense flip blocks = tons of flip. Your goal with this ball is to control break point, will it be soon enough to hit!
SUPER LOW RG:
-------------
3. Vortex Particle, super low rg = all rev in the heads, round body = tons of midlane, dense flip blocks and good differential = lots of strong angular movement at the back. This ball is strong in EVERY phase of ball movement.
4. Tour Power, super low rg = all rev in the heads, round body = tons of midlane, NO dense flip blocks and moderately low differential = only backend that the lane gives it. To sum this ball up, strong heads, strong midlane, SMMMMOOOOOOOOTHH backend. Try to find a way to drill to create anything else with this ball!

Medium RG:
ALL Fuze balls except the Purple.
These balls have medium low rg, medium high differential, and angular edges. These balls churn in the medium heavy oil heads, start to burn in to the lane in the midlane, and good turn. Not in the top of the scale in any of these categories but on the stronger side of medium in every area.
One more example and this in the latest weight block technology going.
http://www.ballreviews.com/Reviews/Reviews.asp?ManufacterID=11&BallID=394
Yep the X factor Deuce.
These balls have medium low rg, medium angularity in the core shape, and extremely high rg and medium mass bias due to the different density vertical pucks lying next to each other.
These balls have good rev on medium heavy oil, good strong midlanes and backends that are out of this world and can generate a tremendous move even on carrydown on synthetic lanes. In general drillings on this ball will be normal and then a solution will have to be come up with to balance the backend potential to the bowlers style and plan of attack!
That's all for now!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS take a look at the pictures and read the densities and look at the flip blocks and see if some of this makes sense to all.
PPS I note many of you will be right with me on this and maybe way ahead of me!

Edited on 12/26/2003 5:09 PM


Mumzie:
quote:
 
I get soooo confused - pin in or out cg in, or kicked. PAP, 4x8, etc. Is there one place to go that would have all the info?
Pin in means blah. Causes the ball to do this...
Pin out means blah blah. Causes the ball to do that.
CG in means...
CG out means...
How to measure PAP?
Where to put a weight hole for different effects
 
This may not be "all" the info, but there's a heck of a lot. Probably more than you need if you're not drilling your own stuff.
www.bowlingcoach.com
--------------------
Any resemblance to political correctness is purely coincidental, unintentional and probably a mistake on the part of the reader.
Admit nothing - deny everything - make counter accusations

Just took a quick cursory look at the information there and it looks voluminous!
I will get to it.
Anyway I've probably bored most to tears. Mine won't be that long, four or five total posts.
Oh, where did my information come from?
1. Revolutions 2
2. Mo Pinel See if, Feel it, Do It.
3. MoRich drill sheets.
4. Brunswick drilling sheets and Seven Popular drill layouts.
5. Gravity Balance system from Lane#1
6. Ebonite technical posts including weight hole item.
7. Core descriptions from www.bowlingballreviews.com
8. Denny Torgenson materials both purchased and read.
9. Mario of Rollrite UK, who uses a lot of Denny Torgenson concepts
10. Synthesis of all above by my pea brain.
11. Experiments on the lane and a very detailed sports eye.
Before I go any further I want to state I agree with much of what is in Revolutions 2 but I think that one must realize that at the time written Chip Zielke had primarily been with Brunswick and it is primarily an excellent compilation of Brunswick positions on drilling and theory.
What is below is my compilation of what I have found works and effects ball roll for me and from watching many other bowlers and their drillings.
Oh the question, why all of that core stuff above?  Well I think it is important for a bowler to know if you have an extreme core, and if you do at one end of the spectrum are you? Or do you have a middle of the road type of core.
It is going to be important for one to understand that if they are at an extreme end of the spectrum. Which drillings and why are probably going to be good or bad for that ball.
For example The Vortex 2 particle above. This is an extreme ball.
Strongest coverstock, lowest rg, strong high differential with dense sharp edged flip blocks all leads to strength in all parts of the lane.
To place and early roll drilling and then add more flip with a weightblock may lead us to create a ball that can only be used once every two to three years!
The same with the opposite end of the spectrum Reaction Rip. To take this ball and drill it to go super long and flip might overemphasize the properties of this ball and get a skid flip reaction that always looks exciting but maybe might not match up very often to most lane conditions.
So onward to drilling configurations.
The most important spec in drilling is pin to pap distance!
The chart contained both in Revolutions 2 and in Mo Pinel's material is the following.
Pin to Pap distance.
0 no flare extremely early roll, lowest rg drilling
1 1/8 inch = 1/3 flare potential of the core early roll drilling
2 1/4 inch = 2/3 flare potential of the core EARLY roll drilling
3 3/8 inch = 100% of the core flare potentila, flare early mids and late.
4 1/2 inch = 2/3 flare potential of the core later on the lane than the 3 3/8.
5 5/8 inch = 1/3 flare potential of the core later on the lane than the 4 1/2.
6 3/4 inch = 0 flare potential but pin is in the initial track, this is the highest rg drilling.
To elaborate a little on the extremes above. Chip Zielke in Revolutions 2 gives a great example of a weight block being like a rolling pin.
a pin on pap drilling or a 0 pin to pap distance is much like taking your rolling pin(weight block) laying it completely on its side and rolling it accross the floor(or lane in this case). The ball rolls much easier as whatever the low rg of the ball is the statistic you are now using.
Your rolling pin looks like this.
xxxxxxxxxxx|---------------------------|
xxxxxxxxxxx|..................................|
xxxxxxx|.............................................|
xxxxxxxxxxx|..................................|
xxxxxxxxxxx|---------------------------|
Laying straight on its side. In the example of the Vortex 2 particle above if drilled like this the ball has an RG of 2.46 right now. It is using it's low RG or what is called it's X or horizontal coordinate. To measure the ability of the ball to roll. Also since the pin is completely stable there is no tendancy of the pin to migrate to a stable position therefore the flare is 0.
If we drill the Reaction Rip like this the ball will have an rg of 2.584.
Also with no flare potential.
Now lets say we stand both these cores, weight blocks, or rolling pins vertical balls up and place the pin 6 3/4 from the PAP. Now the weightblock is standing straight up. Vertical. The y coordinate or height now takes over. This ball will resist rolling compared to the other one with the rolling pin on its side.
After all the weight block is standing straight up.
The rolling pin looks like this.
....|
.|......|
.|......|
.|......|
.|......|
.|......|
.|......|
.|......|
.|......|
....|
In the examples given above The Vortex II particle is now rolling with an RG of
2.46 +.046 (differential,more on this later)= 2.506 rg. This is the highest rg drilling for this ball. Or the most resistant to rolling drilling for this ball.
For the reaction Rip this drilling will be 2.584. + .057 = 2.641.
This ball will resist rolling in comparison to it's low rg drilling of 2.584, it will also resist rolling quite a bit in relation to even the high rg drilling of the Vortex II particle.
As far as ability to roll the reaction rip when drilled staight up in the track, will have about the same rg as a scout reactive when drilled 0 pin to pap. In other words. A scout reactive when drilled 0 pin to pap will have an RG of 2.635 the Reaction Rip when drilled 6 3/4 will have an rg of 2.641.
One with the weightblock sideways, the other with the weightblock straight up!
Neither ball will flare! As there is no imbalance.
Now how do we create imbalance!
Well the easiest way is to create maximum imbalance!!! Let's put the pin about 1/2 of the way in between both stable positions.
3 3/8 from the PAP. This is 1/2 of the distance from stable on the PAP or 1/2 of the distance from stable in the track!
This ball when drilled like this is going to want to attempt to migrate towards stability!
(To be continued soon).
Lucky

Anyway
Edited on 12/27/2003 1:38 PM

So,
Now we've covered two aspects.
1.Cores, and what are the extremes of cores.
2. Weight blocks and possible pin positions. and two extreme pin positions both with no flare, pin on pap(earliest roll and lowest rg) and pin on track(latest roll and highest rg).
NOW common drilling techniques.
First move always is to select your pin position.
3 3/8 from the PAP is the strongest position for every ball and maximizes flare all the way down the lane. Because energy is being used in the early part of the lane this drilling may hook the most, but often doesn't appear it to the naked eye because the hook is ALL the way down the lane.
The MOST common pin position seen in most league conditions is either 4 or 4 1/2 inches from the PAP. This pin position works on most league conditons and is exciting to watch for most bowlers because it tends to give 2/3 of the flare potential of the ball but to preserve energy and flare to the later part of the lane!
So first I choose how many boards I want to cover. As a moderate handed person(about 15 revs and slower speed) it is rare that I use a 3 3/8 pin position.
It usually just covers too many boards and forces me to swing a lot of boards when often there is an easier way to play the lane, straighter up boards.
If I see most of the good players at a center only playing small swings at particular house I will usually go at least 3 3/4 or out to 4 1/2.
If I were a cranker I would use a different set of parameters say 4 1/4 out more to 5 3/4 for the typical house shot. If I were weaker handed these 3 3/8 drillings can work!
I'll come back to other pin positions in the next section but let's now talk about core orientation in relation to pin position.
Maximizing the weight block potential!
--------------------------------------
When a weightblock is straight up or stacked in relation to one's pap. This maximizes the movement potential of the core. In other words a 4 X 4 drilling for me, a 5 X 5 a 3 3/4 X 3 3/4 are going to give me all the motion a weightblock can give at the break point. A concept I use in my mind is that I have a bookcase. If the bookcase is straight up. And let's say it has a lot of differential or potential instability. Maybe I've made it tall with a very narrow base. Maybe I've added a loaded with books top shelf(flip block).
AN example above that fit's this description was the reaction rip weight block.
Tall, (high rg y axis(or height), small base(much lower low rg(or x axis), and a high differential(tall and thin base) with a loaded top shelf(dense flip block), what do I get just like a tall thin book case with books only in the top shelf I create a situation where the bookcase(weightblock) is very instable(wants to tip), and can fall a long way(tall and thin remember), and will(we've loaded only the top shelf. What one gets in this Reaction Rip, ball is a dramatic sharp and late movement at the breakpoint if we place the book shelf straight up! Take a moment and go look at the picture referenced above!
If on the other hand I take a lower and wider book case. Say the Tour Power from above and stack it. And let's say we load all the shelfs, this book case is much more balanced, much more stable and evenly loaded. This book shelf does not have a tendancy to tip, and when it does it is not as tall and will fall more gradually and not as dramatically. Even if we stack it, take advantage of all of it's potential it will only fall or turn very smoothly and evenly.
Therefore, weightblocks positioned in a 12 oclock orientation or as Denny Torgenson calls it 75 degrees(pap to pin and pin to cg(mass bias) angle.
These will give one the maximum reaction at the break point from any given weightblock. Other weightblocks to check out to see that will NOT give dramatic reactions at the breakpoint even when stacked are the Columbia Pulse's, note the thicker middle and lack of dense flip blocks.
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ballreview.asp?r=3934
Or the Dynothane Remedy(stronger than the pulse but more midlane than backend.
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ball.asp?ballid=39
Again see how weightblock shape determines shape on the lane.
Both of the above blocks are thick in the middle with not so prominent flip blocks. Both ball when drilled will have strongish midlanes and weaker backends, the Pulse even less than the Dynothane Remedy.
So anyway drilling a weightblock straight up give one all of the balls potential to what one would say come around the corner!!!! This means carry even from inside angles!
So a weightblock drilled straight up gives us all the ability of the ball to come around the corner or carry from inside!
WEightblock oriented like this.
12 Oclock
/ |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Now everything depends on the balls potential, in the examples given above it is easy to see how the Ability to come around the corner would be rated like this:
MOst to least:
Reaction Rip
Vortex II Particle
Dynothane Remedy (not a lot)
Tour Power(almost none)
Pulse(Virtually none except for the heaviest handed on flying backends).
None of this means a ball is BAD. It only means that one ball is a driver and another ball is a wedge. Each tool has it's place!
CORE POSITION # 2.
10:30.
10:30 12:00
a|a-a--a---a----a-----a------a----
This core position decreases the potential of the ball.
typical notation for this layout is something like 4 X 3, 4 X 2 1/2, 5 X 3 1/2.
First notation in a 4 X 3 say 4 is pin to pap distance, second say 3 is cg to PAP.

Having trouble illustrating 10:30 weightblock, to be continued!!!
Edited on 12/31/2003 7:39 AM

Interesting stuff.
Why, o why? do I feel so many tangential philosophical questions coming on? Tell me to take these to another thread if appropriate.
- Generally speaking, do you like the idea of drilling a ball at one of the extremes to fit its personality or to mellow it?
Example: letting the Rip be what it wants to be by stacking it over bridge vs. rounding off the breakpoint a little by putting the CG out?
Some things in the middle don't care. Example: you could do nearly anything to a Tour Power and have a playable ball. Other things in the middle seem to tell you exactly what they want. Examples: I always thought the original black Spirit would come alive in a 4 x 2. Right now, I think Hot Wire would be even better for me in 1:30.
My thinking on this is confused by all the examples and counterexamples I've seen. I guess I'd have to say "mellow it". I do a lot better with pearls when they are smoothed off a little. I think a Rip stacked would be awful to try to play. OTOH, I once tried to fight a ball's nature by drilling a RevMaster high RG, thought it had an awful reaction.
- On the general subject of matching up drillings to preferred line, I had heard the adage: label to play down and in, stacked to play the oil line, 10:30 to swing. I have examples and counterexamples. Any thoughts on this?

OK, Been crazy lately and have a little more time to put a little more here.
10:30 drilling For drawings coming later I designate this to be a CG towards PAP drilling.
Well don't seem to be able to easily dry a picture but this is a drilling where the cg is kicked out towards one's pap. In relation to the pin. Or a line from the bottom of the weightblock towards the pin points to 10:30 on a clock.
For the more elegant stylist amongst us(lefties) this drilling is called a 1:30.
The effect of all these drilling is to reduce potential! I like to think of it again with the bookcase example above as the bookcase is starting out already partially fallen. It it was a 6 shelf bookcase it now is only a 4shelf bookcase and cannot fall as far. In addition the weightblock instead of being straight up is laying on its side and is approaching being perpindicular to ones' track. NATURALLY this drilling will roll earlier than a stacked(even if pin position is the same pin to pap distance).
Therefore, two drillings with the same pin to pap say 4 1/4 and both on the same ball, the 10:30 drilling will rev sooner(weightblock is laying sideways), and move earlier and actually look like it rounds the corner earlier(it does), but then when it makes it final move it will just roll to the hole. The move is less angular to the hole than the stacked drilling. Called hook set!
This drilling is fantastic for lefties(heavier head oil with stronger backends often), fresh conditions(heavy head oil with strongish backends) and spinners and low trackers(to get the ball rolling earlier) not so skiddy which their action tends to cause. It is also good for bowlers with strong axis rotation if backends are strong enough. Another name for this drilling is hook set!
This type of drilling is usually garbage for up the back type players(rolls too early) and high trackers without a lot of axis rotation. Too much energy burn!
The problem with this drilling is carry or getting enough reaction.
Often one will be able to tell very quickly with this drilling whether it is going to carry or if it is going to leave weak corner pin leaves right away.
See that pin in the channel in front of your 10 pins righies? OR see the 4 pin in front of the 7 pin lefties. If you've got this ball, and you throw a couple of these in practice put this ball in the bag quick! You need a drilling that is going to get you higher on the head pin. You see the nature of the drilling because of the rolly backend or hook set action is to bring one in a little lighter on the headpin.
This is a drilling that has worked fantastic for me.
How to tell if it is going to win, er work!
--------------------------------------------
This ball setup I actually used in a great moment for me. Situation, big tournament, on the lanes with some of the biggest winners in our area. All with recent 800s and multitournament wins to boot. Condition wet heads and big fresh stripped backends.
All start hitting the pocket easy, I notice other bowlers getting either tremendous carry and then followed by a split, like a 4 9. Each has to move quickly even in practice and also throw hard to mute reaction at the back.
Grab this hook set ball and spend all day creaping up low on the head pin with tremendous mix. Light will carry all day when the backends are flying like this! Surrounding greats all bowl well but average about two splits a game using stacked and label drillings. Which are getting higher on the head pin.
SUMMARY on the 10:30 or 45 degree drilling.
-------------------------------------------
This drilling will go earlier and finish less than one's stacked drilling. It will finish lower on the head pin and the first sign of it taking out too much of the energy of your core is weak corner pin pinging. One can actually take and use this drilling all day and hit the pocket and never really carry and say, "What happened, I couldn't miss!".
VARIATIONS on a theme
---------------------
In general players with under 30 degrees axis rotation will not have much use for these drillings, they use up enough energy in the heads on their own and just usually can't carry with these drillings hardly at all!
The variation above called a 45degree driling. The more the cg out the less the degree. ie a cg out about 2 inches from stacked is called a 30 degree drilling then a 25 degree drilling then finally cg on the pin to pap drilling is called a 0 degeree drilling or axis leverage drilling. Each reduction in degree from stacked or what is called a 75 degree drilling is anincrease in the hook set effect. Making the ball roll and set earlier and finish with less less and less!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS more to come.

Edited on 1/13/2004 7:58 AM


OK last basic drilling.
THE 1:30. Another term for this is the 90 degree or 105 degree drilling.
Also the 3 3/8 X 5 or label leverage. The cg to pin line for a righty points towards 1:30!. For a lefty this drilling is called the 10:30. Another term I will use in drawings is cg towards grip! That is in relation to a stacked drilling.
This drillings no 1 property is that it goes long before it makes it move.
The weightblock after all is almost parallel to the track or the bottom of it in a 105 is just about touching the track. Angles are measured pap to pin and pin to cg. The angle in between these two lines.
Again like the 10:30 the bookcase(er weightblock) has already partially fallen.
Thus having less potential to generate flare and potential reaction at the breakpoint in relation to the stacked drilling! But not much less! Just more length.
This drilling can be used by those with axis rotations less than 40 degrees a lot! And they are. Up the backers I know end up almost always using these drillings on most of their stuff! Frankly in Brunswick Drill sheets most of their drillings recommend(7 common drillings) placing the cg so that after drilling the ball will have 3/4 side weight and set the pin where one wants it to control flare. Voila some sort of label drilling! Then brunswick says
add a weighthole if reaction is not perfect that either increases or decreases reaction(or track flare in their lingo). More on weightholes coming up!
So anyway if you follow brunswick drill sheets a lot of your stuff will end up 1:30 or 90 or 105 degree drillings! Great! If that look works for you!
Now Brunswick has done a test with their prostaff where the cg area was covered with ??? Something and balls were thrown with the same pin position and the cg was stacked, 1:30'd(kicked towards the grip) and 10:30'd (kicked toward the pap away from the grip). Suppossedly the staff could see no difference and could not pick up the different cg positions and say "Oh yeah that is the 10:30".
Great if you want to believe this fine, drill all your stuff with the cg kicked towards your grip and if you are an up the backer you may do just fine!
But if you don't believe it! You may be able to tell (I don't). And a lot of other companies don't either.
Here is what my eyes see.
Below let's say is a Fuze Detonator(medium low rg, and medium high diff core)
with a pin to pap of 3 3/8 and three different cg positions.

-----------------------/
-------------------/ CG towards grip, 1:30 drilling for righty
---------------/ 10:30 for lefty
------------/
----------/
--------/
-------/.........../ 12:00 drilling or stacked drilling for both sides
------|........../
------|......../
------|....../
------|..../
------|../
------|/
------|............./ CG towards pap, 10:30 drilling for right, 1:30 for lefty
------|........./
------|...../
------|.../
------|./
------|./
------|/
------|
------|
Note each of these reactions are drawn to show only the place on the lane where the ball makes it's move. Note 10:30 the earliest, then 12:00 then 1:30 the latest. Notice there is a lot of total hook with this 3 3/8 pin to pap position and this moderately strong cored ball! Depending on oil conditions It seems to me that these breakpoints can vary by close to 3 feet.
Now I can see this. Many of the other companies agree with the above chart also!
Now how about a 5 inch pin to pap drilling? What's it look like on this same ball.

----------------/ CG towards grip, 1:30 drilling for right, 10:30 for lefty
-------------/
-----------/
----------/
---------/...../ Stacked or 12:00 for both
--------|...../
--------|.../
--------|../
--------|../
--------|/
--------|....../ CG towards pap, or 10:30 for righty, 1:30 for lefty
--------|..../
--------|../
--------|./
--------|/

The above chart shows almost the same thing. The 10:30 moves first,the 12:00 next and then the 1:30 is last. But what is different here is the total boards covered in the back. With a flare potential 2/3 of what they weightblock can produce we see a reduction in total boards covered in the back. Also there would usually be later start of the flare(see table above on pin positions)of these 5 inch pin to pap balls than with a 3 3/8 positioned pin to pap.
Note the 10:30 drilling because it starts earlier in lane will almost always look more rounded in its movement because it started earlier in the midlane!
The 12:00 looks earlier than the 1:30 but later than the 10:30.
As a result the 1:30 drilling can look real angular depending on HOW far it gets down the lane!
Now who can use these different drillings.
1:30 Up the backers(less than 40 degee, Perfect semi roller40 to 60 degrees.
12:00 all groups.
10:30 Perfect Semi roller, and the strong axis rotation player, 60 degrees plus!
Just a quick note. Low axis rotation 30 degrees and less players tend to get the ball rolling real quick. The end over end roll generated, makes the ball grab earlier in the heads. These players often minimize ball reaction.
Therefore if one went to a ball reaction chart. Ebonite's ball selector is the best I think, one would see if one enters for little side roll, often the solutions on the Ebontite site would be for their highest differential balls.
These can safely be purchased by the "Up the backer" bowler and high reaction drillings that go late can easily be used. Stacked and label leverage or the 1:30 as we call it for the righty!
High Axis rotation players 60 degrees axis rotation and up, lots of side roll.
These players often have a sharp breakpoint and a lot of skid! (I'm one of them). These players especially if slow(they often are) are ball reaction maximizers. Players with these specs and go to some of the ball reaction sites.
Say Ebonite. If one puts in 90 degree side roll the solution will often be there lower differential balls. This can work or balls where the driller slightly mutes the reaction.
Perfect 45 degree rollers, these players can make just about anytype of ball work and just about every drilling works too! Within the medium range of course.

Edited on 1/10/2004 0:10 AM
Tobe continued
Edited on 1/10/2004 0:13 AM


OK,
A couple more basic concepts and then I'm going to sort of do a quick summary of where we are.
PIN IN. These balls with less than two inches of distance between the pin and the cg are just not very exciting! BORING! For whatever reason(in my mind I call the reason leverage) they just don't supply a lot of ooomph to the ball in the back! As a result they are more even in there moves and basically a little earlier in their move and shape than the same ball with a pin out of 3 inches or more!
Also they often don't supply the horsepower at the back on todays synthetic carrydown conditions to carry! Where they do Work great is often on fresher conditions where you want the ball to start up early and then hook SMOOTHLY on the back particularly where the backends are really fresh, dry and flying.
Many old time smart guys use these balls stacked instead of a 10:30 drilling to throw as what they call their benchmark ball on early leagues and other flying backend conditions.
PIN OUT
Now here's some excitement!. These balls with over 3 inches of pin to cg distance. When purchased in the same ball will often ratchet up the reaction at the back of the lane dramatically.
These balls are so exciting that they frequently can lead to bad scoring but very exciting looking reactions at the back.
Again the idea is just leverage! An example of this was a year or so ago!
A friend of mine purchased a Demolition Zone. Like me he is also a person that usually gets quite a bit of reaction out of bowling balls.
I told him that my Demolition Zone was a monster. His on the other hand for him was a complete dud he said. Just very even.
I looked and saw he had purchased one with a 1/2 inch pin out. Mine was a 3 inch pin out. Both drilled nearly the same except for this one factor.
Mine a monster his a Dud (for what he bought it for).
NOw truth be known under most circumstances I would never let someone sell me a 1/2 inch pin out ball but fact be known he didn't worry about stuff like this.
Pin in Pin out summary
Pin in balls of the same ball supply more control and less ability to turn the corner at the back. Pin out balls supply less control and more ability to turn the corner at the back!
NOW A QUICK SUMMARY to this point
Core shape Tall and Thin with dense flip blocks either at the bottom of core or both bottom and top supply built in instability, not much midlane and lots of sharp reaction at the breakpoint. Often these cores should be drilled to smooth reaction slightly. Example Reaction Rip.
Core shaper Thick and Round, these core shapes supply even heavy roll and smooth reaction all the way down the lane, to drill them to smooth reaction is a waste of time! They are already smooth. Examples are Tour Power and Columbia Pulse.
Core Shape Thick and Round but with very dense flip blocks on bottom or bottom and top! These balls start early, have lots of midlane but also lots of flip for a short barrel chested weightblock. Best example of this is the V2 Particle, sanded, and Pearl weight blocks. Others in this class are the Reaction Rev, and the Reaction Roll from Columbia. Lots of others in this class.
Drilling these weightblocks to start earlier, and to have lots of midlane is usually a waste of time, They already have it, and instead often makes these balls unusable on all but the most extreme oilly conditions. Often any drilling that emphasizes these properties is going to make a ball mostly unusable and often make these suckers just roll out somewhere between 30 to 45 feet unless you can find extreme oil in the heads and midlane. These conditions can be found and it's nice to know how to apply an extreme drilling on one of these extreme balls if you really need it! Needed about once every three years otherwise! A combo of extreme drilling and an extreme ball like this!
Flare control= pin to pap position
After one knows his weightblock and the surface the ball comes with ie, low hardness particle solid vs high hardness pearl reactive or plastic. Or somewhere in between.
One can decide what he is expecting from a ball! For example the Tour Power above. This ball is NOT going to flip. You can drill it for length and flip all day. As President Bush the 1st would so eloquently say, "NOT Gonna Do it".
It just "Ain't gonna Happen".
The only decision really to make is how many boards do you want it to cover and what surface do you want to give it.
You also might as well just go ahead and drill it stacked. (It's not going to flip!)
You will again use this guide.
Pin to PAP
0 = no flare early
1 1/8 = 1/3 flare early
2 1/4 = 2/3 flare early
3 3/8 = 100% of flare potential all the way down the lane
4 1/2 = 2/3 flare late
5 5/8 = 1/3 flare late
6 3/4 = 0 flare late!
In general just so you understand. A specialty ball like the tour power drilled stacked is going to act a lot like a more standard ball medium ball,
Oh say like a Red Fuze, of Fuze detonator, or a Messenger Ti drilled 10:30.
The lack of powerful flip blocks on the tour power supplies the smoothness no matter what. The 10:30 drilling on the more powerful balls supplies the smoothness.
Just determine how many boards you want to cover and where and pick your pin position from above.
The cranker is going to be in most cases in the 4 1/2 pin to pap and greater with a lot of his stuff drilled in the 5 inch pin to pap and greater.
His revs supply more flare than the medium rev and low rev player.
The medium rev player is most often going to be in the 3 inch pin to pap and greater pin to pap position, he is looking for the ball to supply hook power to him. Many of his pin positions are going to be coagulated around the 4 1/4 pin to pap position with extremes being 2 1/4 and 5 3/4.
The straighter player with low revs is going to have a lot of balls
all drilled right near the max 3 3/8 pin to pap. Looking to the ball to supply as much power to him as possible most of the time.

Drilling types basic
12:00
Straight up, or as some would call it 75 degrees(pap to pin, pin to cg angle).
This drilling maximizes the core potential of your core. The core is standing just like a bookcase as tall as it can and the base is as narrow as it gets.
You've maximized the core potential of this ball.
10:30
Weight block laid down. Core approaching perpendicular to your track. Also called 45 degrees by some. This weightblock position reminds me of those ads for senior citizen's in need of rescue. "Help me I've fallen and I can't get up". Instead in this case it is "Help me I've partially fallen, and I can't fall as far as I could when I stood straight up!"
You see the weight block is already partially down, and the base is now bigger meaning more stability, less jump at the back.
You've taken some of the potential out of the weightblock the manufacturer provided for you. This drilling is going to supply lots of midlane and less backend than using the weightblock straight up and all its built in potential.
Great! On some conditions. When you see weak 7 pins for the lefty or weak 10 pins for the righty. (4 pin or 6 pin in the channel in front of the corner pin) Put this pup away.
And it's friend the pin in ball who moves very similarly, put him away too. Not enough horsepower at the back! You are coming in light my friend!
These drillings can be super for world team challenge shots, pro tour shots, sport conditons any shot where the oil is definitely available in the front and one wants a muted reaction to the dry. You see many of these conditions designed to embarrass the league super star are only tough because there is little transition or buff at the back. The league superstar ball(often drilled straight up, or label) which is beautiful for league and has allowed him to shoot a few 800s this month. Now this ball on a protour or world team challenge shot jumps with all it's high testosterone power and results in some beautiful powerful looking high testosterone looking 160 and 170s. Every mistake is a split.
Whereas a not so super league superstar can walk in to these conditions, with a 10:30 drilled hook set ball and muted reaction himself to a few 220 t 230 games right with the pro tourists. How do I know, I've done it! Once bowled with a guy who had 845 the night before on one of his leagues. On a world team challenge shot and he had a 490 with the same ball! (Drilled label leverage). Hook set does the trick on these oily head flying backend conditions!
1:30 drillings.
These drillings lean the weightblock the other way.
"Help me I've fallen the other way partially and this means I can't fall as far as if I was standing straight up!"
Also theoretically a lessening of manufacturer supplied weight block potential.
But because this drilling put the weightblock just about dead parallel with the track. Length is great, and because length is great the reaction happening so late can be sharp. Especially for side release specialist who have 60 degree axis rotation and greater. These drillings can actually be longer and have quite extreme over under reactions with less midlane!
I'm one of these guys! Other more direct type throwers with axis rotations of 30 or 35 degrees and less can live on these drill patterns all day and all night! You see they need the length in order to have much reaction at all on the back. Perfect 45 degree throwers love these drillings also.
The 60 degree thrower typically only uses this drilling when the lane condition opens up and he wants to impress the woman he is with.!
He will often see ringing 7 pins, if lefty or ringing 10s if a righty from this drilling as he is getting down the lane too far before the break coming in with a wonderful high testosterone reaction that is just a little late to kick out the corner!
Oh lest me not forget the spinner or low track bowler. He has some of the similar properties of the higher axis rotation bowler. His ball gets too far down the lane often. What do you think often works for him! You got it 10:30 or any other drilling that starts the ball earlier!
OK I consider we are properly summarized to this point and will now start to pull it all together.
Sorry I'm not answering specific questions yet but I'm just sort of trying to get on a roll and finish this thing.
That's how my filing cabinent up top works!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Edited on 1/11/2004 2:49 AM
Lucky, you've done a very good synopsys of bowling ball core and drillngs. My hats off to you..!! =:^D
p.s.
-----------------------/
-------------------/ 1:30 drilling (for right handers..?)
---------------/
------------/
----------/
--------/
-------/.........../ 12:00 drilling
------|........../
------|......../
------|....../
------|..../
------|../
------|/
------|............./ 10:30 drilling
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------|...../
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Is the 1:30 drilling a 10:30(pin out) drilling/reaction for a left hander shown to look like how it would be for a 1:30 drilling for a right hander. Or, is the 1:30 drilling a 1:30(CG out) drilling/reaction for a left hander..? =:^D



ooooooOOOOOOPPSSSSSS,
I was thinking elegant, left handed.
I keep forgetting there are more of you righties out there.
All diagrams were for lefties, and where I said 1:30 I meant cg back towards grip. Where I said 10:30 I meant cg out. And stacked!
Well then I drew left handed. That'll teach me to do stuff at 4:30 am.
I will redo pictures if some out there cannot "See" left handed!
REgards,
Luckylefty


Lucky, would you give me your reccomendations for a low tracker with very few revs, 4" from thumb and finger. Also an inverted track, hi rev player with 16-18 mph speed. Need some info for a drill that will benefit a full roller that tracks between the fingers and just to the right of the thumb. Also need some advice for a spinner ball thrower whose PAP is 1" over and 1/2" up.
Bullred

Bull, those are too extreme examples for me, I defer to your knowledge on out of this world stuff like that. 1 1/2 inch pap, That's a spinner. The spinner of spinners!
Full rollers, I don't even think about them, time to change! The pros did it in 1968! Dave Davis told me he threw for two years to unlearn the full roller!
Oh, as to the question on hand fit I have these links where I've posted stuff (my interpertation of Bill Taylor's definitive book, "Fitting and Drilling".
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=31018&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5
A very complete coverage called
"Musings on a Perfect fit"
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=27477&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5
Beveling tips from Mo Pinel, very important
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=16733&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5
Lateral thumb pitch and staying behind the ball
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=21407&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5
That's all I got on grip!
I've gone back above and changed left the drawings for a LEFTHANDER.
Why? Because there is no border on right to make the drawing easy on right side of this format.
I've changed the notation on graphs to cg towards grip, stacked, and cg towards pap.
Hopefully that will improve things!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PPPSS Very important.
If you've been following this thread!
GO BACK TO THE CHARTS of 1:30, 12:00, and 10:30.
At the bottom of the graphs I've gone in and added stuff about axis rotation.
Up the backer type ball solutions, Extreme side rollers, and perfect 45 degree rollers. It could be important as we progress to the conclusion of this!
Coming next! Matching drillings with axis rotation and ball design, common drilling errors, or How to ruin a good ball, Finally, a method to make most of your balls "GOOD ONES". Finally Seldom used Great drillings!


Matching axis rotation with drillings.
I think it is so important to know what you are!
Axis rotation that is!
Up the backers
10 to 35 degree axis rotation. These guys are reaction minimizers in general. When compared to the other bowlers below, (perfect 45 degree bowlers and side rollers). Properties of up the backers are less backend than others when using the same ball and same drilling, more speed, and also the fact their ball wants to grab in the heads. Typically the kicked out drillings or large kick out don't work for them. Typically these guys find they can label or stack and surface means everything to them.
Perfect 45 degree rollers. These guys get a lot of reaction and can use all 3 of the drillings referenced above very easily depending on condition. They have medium high speed, are very versatile, have medium speed and good control of the breakpoint on many conditions. Wish I was one.
Side Rollers or 55 to 90 degree side roll. These bowlers are reaction maximizers. How do I know, I am one! Lots of skid, not a lot of speed in general, big backends, and difficulty controlling the breakpoint. Often too long too sharp and lots of ringing corner pins. Our up the backer above is more subject to weak corner pins! These bowlers tend to need drillings in the stacked to kicked out area to give them control of the break point! Typical label leverage will often get down the lane too far before breaking!
HOW DOES ONE KNOW WHICH AXIS ROTATION ONE IS?
Well that's not hard. First find your pap. It's really not that hard. Take a yellow or white grease pencil and trace the very first oil ring on your ball.
Yeah the one closest to your thumb and fingers. Then look and put a piece of tape in the center of it.
NOw throw the ball. If when the ball first starts out is the tape stable, if yes you have found it. If no move the tape around a little till when you throw the tape is initially still as the ball goes down the lane! AHA now you've got it.
Now with a friend watching throw the ball again. IN the first 30 feet where is the tape facing. Facing to the lane next to you(righties to the left, lefties to the right). Ah hah! You are an up the backer. Axis rotation much less than 45.
Or if you throw and the tape is sort of at the lane next to you and sort of back at you. Well maybe even at a 45 degree angle in between you and the lane next to you, congratulations you are a perfect 45 degree roller!
Or if when you throw the tape faces right back at you, then you are a perfect 90 degree roller. Lots of reaction lots of excitement and difficulty controlling your breakpoint are ahead for you! My tape looks right back at me in the 65 to 75 degree direction.
That's all for today.
Tomorrow or soon some drillings that will ruin a ball for you! Once one knows what to avoid, then it will lead us to what to do.


So now we know the qualities of each of our bowlers, right?
Oh well quick review.
Up the backers, lots of roll can play oil well, have little reaction at back, and very good control of breakpoint, lots of speed. Often looking to get thru the heads and try to buy balls that give then a reaction. Note they don't need balls or drillings that supply midlane, they supply it!
Perfect 45 degree throwers. These guys can master all conditions and use all drillings.
Side rollers, These guys have lots of skid in the heads, have slower speeds, have trouble controlling the breakpoint, and if they don't go thru the breakpoint they get lots of reaction. These guys are looking for balls and drillings that create midlane and control of the breakpoint. These guys maximize reaction.
So what type of balls do you think are usually chosen for these different bowlers.
Up the backers, in general balls that increase reaction, high differential balls often help them.
Perfect 45 throwers = anything that fits the condition they are on.
Side Rollers, = these guys are looking for balls that give them control of the midlane and maybe less differential of drillings that reduce differential and stabilize reaction a touch.
NOW let's talk about how to ruin a ball!!!!
-------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
So often we see reviews here on ball reviews that say this ball is a
DUD, Columbia Sucks, Lane 1 sucks, Brunswick always rolls out for me!
Stuff like that!
Often that comes from the Extremes of balls, Bowling style(up the back or side roller), or drilling patterns.
Put all extremes of one type together and unless you've got an extreme condition you've got yourself one expensive dud!
EXTREME Example 1.
We are going to put together four, early roll elements together and see what we get.
1. An up the back bowler
2. A Very Strong coverstock and low rg high differential ball.
Our Vortex 2 Particle from above.
For your review. http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ball.asp?ballid=1411
3. A strong early rolling drilling 10:30 or cg out with a weighthole on the PAP to make the ball go earlier and have less reaction.
4. A medium league condition.
Here we go, the perfect storm of how to RUIN a $200 dollar high performance ball.
First our up the backer gets this low rg, strong coverstock ball rolling very early in the heads, Then we will put a 3 3/8 pin to pap postion for tons of flare(dry coverstock hitting a new track on the ball all the way down the lane), then we will kick out the cg to make the drilling a 10:30 ie 3 3/8 X 2, and then we will put a stability enhancing top weight reducing weighthole on the PAP.
What do you call this ball on an medium condition or even medium heavier!? I call it Dead at 30 feet or DOA!
Remember our bowler doesn't need midlane help his style creates it. In general he almost should never kick out the cg in the first place. But now add this strong midlane core, this high flare, and this super strong coverstock and
this ball spells early early and early and dead!! How often does one see that or hear it in your local alley regarding heavy oil balls.
Is there a solution to this disaster? Maybe, just maybe extreme polish. More likely a sale is coming. I think I hear a new super hooker comin my way for $40 over the Internet!
EXTREME Example #2.
I bet you can almost see this one comin!
Now we are going to take the exact opposite set of parameters and drill them up.
Now we are going to take a set of properties that mean length length length and combine them in to one expensive disaster.
1. We are going to take one of our classic side rollers near 90 degrees. Remember his style provides very little control of the midlane and lots of skid!
2. We are going to grab off the shelf a high rg, high diff ball.
Maybe something like a Reaction Rip: For your review:
http://www.columbia300.com/gear/balls.cfm?bid=84
Oh, by the way he purchases the much higher rg 15 pound version!
3. We are going to drill this ball with a drilling which supplies modest flare, and very little midlane(note this tall thin core supplies very little midlane due to its tall thin build with very little midruff). We will drill it with a 4 1/2 X 5 1/2. This cg under grip will get the ball down the lane a long ways to the break point.
4. Now we are going to place the ball on the alley on some medium heavily oiled heads and a longer pattern that places control of the midlane at a premium.
What are we going to find in this case. Though not as totally dissatisfying as example 1 above. The balls reaction though late is going to be exciting once it hits dry. Very exciting. And some very exciting ringing 10 pins. Because even though this ball will eventually break It is going to tend to do it late due to the bowlers side roll, pearlized cover and tall thin little midlane producing core!
So some bowlers may be able to force this syle and make it work by trying to throw faster than normal on a very tight line most side rollers just can't produce the speed necessary to play the line tight enough to get this ball to hit. They are going to loop around the line and this setup calls for due to the fact that they usually have less speed. In that case they are going to getting calls from the operator all day! Ring ring ring said the 10 pin to the righty!
As theball goes deep ball after ball after ball before it finally turns the corner and appears to hit flush! Nope 6 ringing 10 pins in a game is more than a coincidence. It's bad physics at work! Ring Ring Ring says the pin! Get a clue!
More coming over the weekend.
Near wrapping up in the next several days!
Coming next drillings that work!
Edited on 1/17/2004 0:13 AM


Lucky Lefty, can I sneak in a question prior to the release of your next chapter?

I'm a "up the backer" as you would say, but with more backend than most. On medium conditions, I'm successfully using a layout similar to the Brunswick 3e (polished particle with pin 3" out; pin way right at just 2 1/4" from PAP, CG in palm, no X-hole). This is a low flare drilling.
However, when the heads go and the lanes get dry, I can't get enough length. The more popular low flare drill, the pin over bridge layout, just doesn't work for me. The ball never seems to get into a roll, and just rotates end-over-end.
I've heard of a few people using a pin-in-track layout to get extra length. Would this work on a dry condition? Or would you suggest another layout?
--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Alrighty then, got a little busy.
Back to the subject matter!
With a little digression.
"DO YOU SEE WHAT I SEE?" music plays.
The title to a wonderful Christmas song.
Also what I think of when I see the frequent posts on coverstock, core, drilling, and weighthole tweaking procedures. When people compare percentages I note two groups at the extreme and then others say well it is a blend!
To start with I think we can all agree with the following point.
1. Surface controls the heads.
2. Drilling particularly core orientation controls the midlane
3. weighholes and core potential and FLIP BLOCKS control the backend!
HOWEVER:
1. The UP the backer sees the lane different than the SIDE Roller and the Low tracker(very similar view of the lane as the side roller).
a. His release creates earlier friction in the heads his ball wants to start earlier,
b. his release creates midlane control, he doesn't need any help gaining control of the breakpoint(if he can get to it). He doesn't need kicked out cg's to smooth, his breakpoint is smooth already!
c. His release does not generate backend, he often needs whatever help a core, pin position, flip blocks and weightholes will give him.
This is why often when these types of bowlers will often when asked about ball reaction will say surface is 70 to 90% of ball reaction it IS!, to THEM!
Examples. Gregg Hoppe is a wonderful bowler on this site. Go to his profile and one will see he plays up straight and wide, indicating an up the back release. He believes SURFACE is next to everything. FOR HIM it is!
A fine bowling fellow named Walter Ray Williams JR. used to confound the heck out of me. One could go to his nice website. www.WalterRay.com and try to find just about anything about drilling patterns, nada! Yet one could always find comments like
"Walter wanted to use a harder shell ball." Or, "Walter liked this look but he'd noted the left lane was wetter than the right so he used two of (this weeks brand X) one was at 320 and the other 800". "Walter was very fortunate and won this week". Exasperating! However what this tells you is that Walter Ray is an extreme up the backer for the tour, and drillings almost don't matter much. Almost all his stuff is label(remember 1:30!, or near stacked, some variance in pin up). Oh yeah this week he had his pin kicked way out, about 1/4 inch!!! He HE.
A friend of mine is a multi Regional winner and his favorite saying is "Just throw the ball". Not much reason to think anything else. Basically all his success comes from label drills and some variance as to high high he puts his pins varies his backend potential. Anything cg out for him is basically in the bag for a few weeks then gone. Just drill label, get the surface right, and "Just throw the ball". Up the backer, you got that right!
Put on your label leverage drill, get the surface right to handle the heads, raise or lower the pin to provide more backend, no worries about midlane(their up the back style guarantees midlane usually, and hope you've got enough backend to carry. The life of an up the backer!
"DO YOU SEE WHAT I SEE", part II.
Now are SIDE ROLLER sees the lane quite differently.
Getting thru the heads is usually pretty easy. His side roll decreases friction in the heads in relation to Mr. Up the backer. Getting the ball to grab early enough is the problem, especially in the midlane. Oh and if he's lefty even more of a problem as this shot typically breaks down later.
Then his backend is often if a dry spot to find angular and big, and sudden!! Mine is! As is the backend for most SIDEROLLERS!
Control of the midlane is paramount. Often if these players are not quoting some source they've read these players are going to see the factors above listed this way. Pin position and core orientation = 50%, surface 30% and backend factors, pin up pin down and weightholes near 20%. Guess what they are right. This is how their ball reads the lane. Late sharp and dramatically!
"DO YOU SEE WHAT I SEE?".
Guess what drillings are going to have to be carefully planned to control and often mute the backends for this style of bowler. ALWAYS, no! But mostly, YES!
Now as promised some great workable drillings.



Up the backer drillings.
Unfortunately I can't offer a lot here!
As stated above the staple of the classic up the backer is the label or label leverage drilling.
All variations of 4 X 5, 3 3/8 X 5, 4 X 5 1/2. 4 X 4 1/4, 4 X 4 work for this bowler. Or if one likes the degree system Drillings of 105 degrees thru about the very slight cg kick outs(for extremely long or wet midlanes) about 55 degrees work for this bowler!
If I didn't explain it before the angle between the pap to pin line and pap to cg or mass bias line is the angle measured.
It looks like this.
0 0 |P | | / |-75 |degreesgc cg PAP
0
Clear?
Stacked drillings are 75 degrees!
Mostly our up the back friend is going to be in the 90 degree area.
A slight difference in reaction for him are pin outs. Very often he will have a dullish or dull particle with a moderate pin out 2 to 3 or less for his fresh condition ball. Oil in the heads with strong backends.
Like so.
0 0 P

gc cg

0
Pin either level with ring finger or slightly down. Almost always cg on grip center north south line or ABOVE it to give finger weight for more skid.
His second ball is then a much harder surface ball. With the pin out of 4 to 5 like so.
P
0 0

gc cg

0
This ball if placed with the pin out location so that the pin is 1 1/2 or 1 inch from the VAL will give this ball flip that he often needs as the shot breaksdown to get a little inside and still carry. Note he will not usually be as inside as his stronger sideroll brethren, Mr. Perfect 45 and Mr. Too much side roll 80! But this pin up and near VAL is often the trick to get him to carry on this broken down shot! Oh yeah if he moves near stacked and adds an angled out weighhole that will help too if he needs more reaction on the back.
Unfortunately as www.walterray.com and Peggy Lee sings "if that's all there is my friend, then let's go surfacing", "let's put on a sheen or just some polish, I might like a sand tomorrow" (music plays softly). If your too young to remember this song well then I'm sorry!
Apply your favorite up the backer surface and be ready to change tomorrow!
Next drillings for our Side tracker! He's a tempermental, and difficult tortured soul!


Posted: 2/14/2004 2:42 AM    
 
I haven't been real good about answering questions in the lengthy post but I'll digress for a moment.
45 degree drillings work in a way for some bowlers. The ones it is the worst for usually are up the backers. It just doesn't give the backend they usually need. It is a wonderful drill for side rollers and up the backers. It works great when one has head oil and wants less backend! It's telltale sign that it is not going to work is that it starts leaving weak corner pins, indicative of being too much on the 3 pin for righties and too much on the 2 pin for lefties.
It will scream at you loud and clear in warmups! "Don't throw me" it says to the lefty, "I'm leaving 7 pins even when you hit the pocket". To the Righty it says, "I may hit the pocket but I will not strike", "I'm going to hit not quite high enough but leave a lot of your friend the 10 pin up".
To digress even more also the 45 degree drilling is more likely to not carry on a particle than it is on a reactive. A reactive being able to generate more backend than a particle. Denny Torgenson a occassional guru on this site has often mentioned that a 12:00 oclock drilling on a particle (75 degrees) is similar to a 45 degree drilling on a reactive(I think it was he that said that and if it wasn't it was ME!). Of course this in the early days of particles and I believe with their expertise in blending in particles these days this statement is becoming less true. Particles do seem to have more backend than when first introduced.
Note also that I have found that a 60 degree works on many conditions for me!
Agreed also if you have a ball that is strong enough to hit for you (I tend to use strong angular producing cores) with my a 45 degree drilling having the same ball in 75 is probably not a bad idea.
I can't imagine a 75 degree drilling working on a world team challenge or sport condition too often unless the ball is smooth to begin with or if the
_________________________________________
Six decades of league bowling and still learning.

ABC/USBC Lifetime Member since Aug 1995.

ambi1

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #97 on: August 15, 2004, 11:56:30 PM »
bump...
--------------------


DARK BEER IT IS THEN!


DARK BEER IT IS THEN!

LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2004, 07:52:26 AM »
cool!

Still going!

REgards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #99 on: October 28, 2004, 01:05:57 AM »
Hoppy, to the toppy!

Luckyl
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana