Author Topic: layouts by your axis point, help please (Read 8835 times)

bowlerstyle · « **on:** February 01, 2004, 11:59:46 PM »

ok say if two different people have two differnet axis points but both have the same exact ball with the same exact specs both laid out with the same drill pattern (for instince a 4x4 or 3 1/2 x 3 1/2) will the ball roll the same?

bowlerstyle · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2004, 03:02:28 PM »

and oh yes, what would you consider the most aggressive layout by your axis point.

T-GOD · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2004, 03:58:14 PM »

As Brian stated, they will not roll the same. If you have a 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 for a spinner, the ball will probably just keep spinning all the way down the lane. Whereas, a 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 for a person who rolls the ball more end over end, this will be a very strong drilling, with a strong reaction.

Different releases need different drillings, in order to get the same ball reaction. So, a 6 x 6 for a spinner will roll close to the same as a 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 for a person who rolls the ball more end over end. =:^D

Mike E · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2004, 04:10:22 PM »

T-God, In your experience which drills work best for full rollers with somewhat slow(14 mph) ball speed?

Thanks,
Mike E
--------------------
Did you know that you can't see pigs in a windstorm?

bowlerstyle · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2004, 05:32:20 PM »

I see you both going back and forth and I wonder, where do they find out that X (varaible) times X (varaible) performes what reaction? how do you know, or where can I find out ____ (what) by ____ (what) gives you ____ (blank) amount of reaction.

bowlerstyle · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2004, 06:09:41 PM »

thanks Brian.

T-GOD · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2004, 04:40:34 PM »

Brian, it's time to learn your physics. If you put weight on your PAP, the ball will go longer before it hooks. It will also hook more when it does start to hook.

If you drill a pin axis for a spinner, the ball will spin like a top and never hook..!! So, if you want the ball to roll/hook earlier for a spinner, you place the core/weights closer to their track..!!

Therefore, if a person who has a higher track/more roll, is using a ball drilled 3 1/2 x 3 1/2, on an oily condition, a spinner will need a layout farther from their PAP, i.e. 5 x 5 or 6 x 6 ect... in order to get the ball rolling sooner, giving a similar reation like the person who has the higher track does with a 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 layout. =:^D

channel surfer · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2004, 04:57:10 PM »

T-GOD,

Ive been taught that the closer you move the pin towards the axis, the sooner the hook for a normal tracker.
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Edited on 2/3/2004 5:53 PM

Edited on 2/3/2004 5:54 PM

T-GOD · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2004, 09:40:01 PM »

Well Brian, I guess you believe everything you hear from a ball manufacturer. I never knew they wrote the Laws of Physics. You and everyone else who believes them are getting snowed over.

I'm going to try to explain this to you in laymans terms, so you and everyone else can understand it. If I try to explain it using physics terms, like angular momentum, rotational direction, precession, mass and velocity, it'll go over everyones head..!!

There's a difference between revving early and hooking early. Like I stated earlier, a top will spin early and fast, but when the ball is going down the lane, with the pin on it's axis/tilted up, spinning like a top, the ball won't hook early..!!

A ball that crashes onto the lane hooks/digs in earlier, vs a ball that comes into the lane flatter, like a plane coming in for a landing. With a pin axis drilling, the core is parallel to the lane. It skims across the lane. When the core is rotating more end over end, it's digging in on every rotation, so, the ball will grab earlier.

Here's a simple question for you. Maybe this will open your eyes. Bowler 1 has a high track, bowler 2 has a low track. Which bowlers ball rolls earlier/works better on oil..? The bowler with the low track, has the weight/pin closer to their axis/PAP vs. the high track, if they both used the same ball with a normal label drilling.

An end over end rolling ball/core will work better/roll earlier on oil than a ball/core spinning down the lane. This is as simple as I can put it for you..!! Now if you want me to get out my physics book and/or have a professor explain it to you, I'll do that too, but it'll cost you. =:^D

channel surfer · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2004, 09:51:09 PM »

Axis weight will produce little or no track flare and get the ball into an early roll with little backend reaction. Axis weight has the pin located on or near the bowler's PAP. The core is positioned along the initial spin axis. This places the core in a stable position. The ball will be initially rotating about the minimum RG axis, which is a stable core position. Therefore, it will continue to rotate about this axis creating no track flare. This reduces the backend reaction. Since the ball is rotating about the low RG axis it is easier for the bowler to rotate it off their hand which gets the ball into an earlier roll.
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Edited on 2/3/2004 10:47 PM

tburky · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2004, 10:22:11 PM »

Channel surfer,

Go this website and look at the pin axis drilling and compare the length versus other layouts on the sheet.

http://www.lane1bowling.com/tech/drilling.html

channel surfer · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2004, 10:39:08 PM »

Ive checked with several sources. Closer the pin is to pap, the earlier the ball wants to roll.

Looks like this is a weird argument that will never stop. You must remember it differs with the RG of the ball. So I can make exceptions when I say early roll. Plus none of us are stating anything about mass bias, or center of gravity, and these do affect the reaction.

Ive been taught:
Pin placment controls what the ball will do to the first 40 feet/breakpoint, and the Mass Bias controls what will happen in the backend. I know some of you may agree, and some will think its stupid. But this is what ive been taught so im going off it.
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Edited on 2/3/2004 11:52 PM

T-GOD · « **Reply #12 on:** February 05, 2004, 12:32:46 PM »

quote:
Why would they lie about drilling their product. If it doesn't work then the ball looks bad and they don't sell any. Doesn't sound real smart to me.

They don't know any better.

quote:
A core in a high Rg position (end over end as you put it) WILL NOT start earlier than a core in a low Rg position.

A higer RG core that is wobbling, WILL START earlier than a low RG core that doesn't wobble and/or wobbles less..!!

You keep saying that a low RG drilling (pin closer to your PAP) hooks/rolls earlier, and that this is what the manufacturers are teaching you, and everyone else. Well, if they hook/roll earlier, then they should work better on oil, correct..?

Then, why is it you don't see many balls for oil, drilled with the pin closer to your PAP, i.e. 1 1/2 - 2"..? But, you do see many oil drillings/balls drilled with the pin 4 3/4" to 5 1/4" from the PAP. Why is that..? Why don't you see many 2 x 2 stacked, 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 stacked drillings for oil..? These are supposedly better drillings, aren't' they..? Won't the ball roll/hook earlier with this type of lower RG drilling..?

Let's take a look back at what I said in the beginning. You have bowler 1 with a 5 1/2 PAP and bowler 2 with a 3 1/2" PAP(spinner). If each had a ball drilled 3 3/8 x 3 3/8", the bowler with the 5 1/2" PAP would have an earlier/more hook, correct..?

So, for the bowler with the 3 1/2" PAP, in order to get an earlier/more hook, are you going to tell me we need to move the pin closer to his PAP, closer to a pin axis drilling..? This is where you're dead wrong, and everyone else who believes this. If you move the bowler with the 3 1/2" PAP's (spinner's) core toward his PAP, the ball will spin/slide more, not hook earlier/roll more.

You have to put the pin farther from the spinners PAP, in order for the ball to start rolling/hooking sooner..!!

Now, here's what you may not realize, when you're drilling unbalanced, asymmetrical, strong mass bias core balls. When you initially put the core farther from your PAP, as the ball rolls down the lane, the core/pin moves closer to your PAP. With the core/pin closer towards your PAP, as I've stated many times, the ball goes longer before it hooks..!!

So, in reality, when your putting the pin farther from your PAP, it's ending up closer to your PAP as it's going down the lane, making the ball go longer. This explains why putting the pin farther from your PAP, in these strong mass bias core/asymmetrical, makes the ball go longer. But, in reality, the core/pin is not farther from your PAP, IT'S CLOSER TO YOUR PAP..!!

The same thing happens when you initially put the pin closer to your PAP. AS the ball rolls down the lane, it migrates farther away from the PAP, making the ball roll early..!!

As you can see, my physics are correct and the manufacturers are leaving out tiny details to their theories on layouts, thus, confusing the bowlers/drillers into thinking the Laws of Physics are different than what they really are..!!

So, when you're drilling symmetrical, stable core balls, you will learn the Laws of Physics properly, as well as true ball reactions and the reason why. =:^D

Edited on 2/5/2004 2:45 PM

Nodsleinad · « **Reply #13 on:** February 05, 2004, 01:27:18 PM »

I am sure i will be lambasted but here goes....I use this as my guideline. I look for a number of 90 to use as my benchmark most reactive drillings.

For example: A player with 45 degree hand rotation. I use a pap to pin thru cg/mass bias angle of 45 degrees to accomplish the benchmark layout. This is usually there most reactive reaction. Closing that angle to 30-15-0 etc will allow the ball to arc / read earlier. Opening that angle will create later arc / reaction.

A player with 0 rotation I would use and 90 deg angle to get his benchmark reaction. Using 45 for that player would more than likely read and arc to early and he / her already has early reaction / roll with the 0 rotation.

A player with 90 rotation would / could use almost a 0 degree layout because they are creating skid with the release. PDW uses 25 degree as his Benchmark layout according to Steve Kloempken of Storm. If he uses the 45-60 it goes way to long and is over active most of the time. Those were Kloempkens words, not mine", I discussed this very issue with him. Of course this is not coming from a Physics guru like T-God but a bowler who has drilled over 300 balls.

Then of course u can use these angels with pin from PAP distance and different covers / balls to create the length that this reaction happens from the line.

I again use 3 3/8 for oil, 4 1/2 for medium and 5 5/8 for dry and i have used pin on axis and those lo rg drillings. Yes they go long but read and roll from the hand. The shell may get it down the lane but the read is closer. Pin on axis is not used for oil is because it reaches if preferred spin axis early and does not flare and rolls over the same areas of the ball. Bowlers want fresh ball surface for oil. The 3 3/8 will give the most flare because the ball has more imbalance and wobbles more , thus flares. A 5 5/8 ball will roll / flare but it stands up longer and reaches the pocket before it could flare that much. If the lane was 90 feet it would / could flare more as it encounters friction and then begins to lose energy and wobble / flare thusly down to it s preferred spin axis.

My thoughts, fire away i guess?

Nod

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 06, 2004, 12:11:09 PM »

I know practically nothing about what everyone is talking about. However, I did go to the Lane 1 site as suggested by Tburky and for a pin axis drilling they say length 10 backend 4 which to me if I understand this right, the ball will get more (good?) length and a late hook. Is this what it says/means?....If so, then T-God would be correct saying that the closer the Pin is to the axis, the more length the ball will have.

I'm not arguing (debating) either way, only writing what I read and what I thought it said. As I said at the begining, this is not "my cup of tea" and I know little to knothing about these things.

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Author Topic: layouts by your axis point, help please (Read 8835 times)

bowlerstyle

layouts by your axis point, help please

bowlerstyle

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please

T-GOD

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please

Mike E

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bowlerstyle

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bowlerstyle

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T-GOD

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channel surfer

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T-GOD

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channel surfer

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tburky

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channel surfer

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T-GOD

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Nodsleinad

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Brickguy221

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