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Author Topic: low rg and high diff question...  (Read 56728 times)

lefty50

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low rg and high diff question...
« on: July 07, 2015, 06:38:18 PM »
current specs.. Left hand, 250 rev, 16.5 off the hand, high axis rotation.

the following is primarily, but not totally, a med-hvy oil and up scenario question.

Several years ago I was told by members on this forum whom I trust that with my style of bowling (low rev, high rotation), I would always want a low RG high differential ball. That did and still does make sense to me since my favorite ball at the time was a storm Special Agent. I've always done well with high diff symmetrical balls, which makes sense. Any ball with a high RG lopes down the lane too long and never gets into a roll. Low differential ball are pretty much the same.

It seems to me that these days the vast majority of balls are higher RG and lower differential, but yet they are advertised as big hook balls, which flies in the face of what my style encounters in real life. The answer is either that they are no longer making the type of ball I prefer (few exceptions) or that the cover stock is so dramatically different that I no longer have the low RG high differential qualification requirement.

I should add that I have had nothing but trouble with asymmetric and will only buy symmetric from now on. I know that there are few balls out there like the Motiv Covert Revolt, but there are many others I would like to try based on their rating to give me some help in the rev department, but I just can't see a .047 or so low rg ball revving enough for me.

Which is true?
Thanks in advance

 

Brickguy221

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #106 on: July 20, 2015, 06:44:46 PM »
Damn.....and all this time I was thinking it was operator error being the reason I left a 10 pin when it was RG all along.   ;D  ;D  :P

I'm a bowler, I knew it couldn't be me.   :P  :P

 ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D   ^^^^^^^^^^^^   ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

kidlost2000

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #107 on: July 20, 2015, 07:51:29 PM »
For the OP lefty50 here is an example using an Track 607A which wouldn't really be considered asymmetric due to the weak int diff but the rg and diff are in the ball park of what you are talking about for not being able to work for you. If you give me your actual stats for everything I can plot some different things using BP software but for the time being here is the affects drilling and weight holes will have on a ball especially the Diff and Int Diff.


Ball undrilled stats



Ball drilled



Ball with a small weight hole



Ball with a larger weight hole




Notice how undrilled the diff was .049 and after drilling and a wight hole it is up to .062

…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

bergman

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #108 on: July 21, 2015, 12:37:31 PM »
I think we can dispute the effects of Rg & differentials on pin carry but there is no
dispute as to the physics behind it all.

Rg alone does not give us enough information on a ball's ability to rev up. Neither does differential. They are directly dependent on one another only if we know the MASS of the imbalance.
 Of the 2, Rg has a significant influence because it determines the DISTANCE of the core's imbalance from
its axis of rotation. The simplest formula that describes this relationship is:

I (moment of inertia)= mr^2 .  where m = mass of the imbalance r= distance of the imbalance from its axis of rotation. This is just one of many formulas that determines
an object's moment of inertia----the most important factor in determining a ball's
resistance to "rev-up". These formulas vary, depending on the shape of the object
(i.e., sphere, cylinder, fixed rod, etc.) in question. The important thing to notice is that in the formula  the quantity "r" is squared. This means that any change in a core's center of mass is not linear. This is significant because a change of say, 2.52 in a ball's Rg to
2.47 is not .005 but is .250 (two hundred and fifty thousandths--a full 1/4 inch).

Don't let core design confuse you as to its effects when it come to determining
 a ball's moment of inertia. In the end, it's the mass (weight) of the imbalance
and its distance from the PSA (Rg) that count in determining a ball's ability (or inability) to "rev up".

 Now when it comes to a ball's ability to flare, this is where differential
does play a big role, because it measures a ball's "wobble" (precession) about the
axis of rotation. Here, an asymmetric core that has asymmetry about all 3 axes
PLUS having a large intermediate differential, will maximize flare , depending on how it's drilled.

So, what does all of this actually signify?  It signifies that if you take 2 similar balls
and for example, drill one with 2.52 Rg and the other with 2.47 Rg, The ball with the lower Rg WILL noticeably rev-up much quicker than the one drilled at 2.52 Rg. 
On the other hand, doing the same with 2 dissimilar balls will not necessarily
produce the same moment of inertia (again, the most important quantity in determining a ball's ability to rev-up) even though they might both have the same Rg. The reason for this is that we simply don't know the mass of the imbalanced force . Differential alone doesn't tell us this quantity either. 

For these reasons, I was never very fond of ball manufacturers' use of "Rg" alone, in trying to describe a ball's "rev capabilities".  Some balls with an Rg of 2.50 will
rev faster (or slower) than another ball with 2.50 Rg but with a different mass that the first ball.

Also, when it comes to bowling ball dynamics, there are situations where indeed,
small changes can add up to big differences in performance. One of these quantities
is a ball's pocket (entry) angle. A 2-3 degree difference in entry angle looks insignificant on paper, but is anything but when it comes to its effects on pinfall.
Once again, it's the "physics" behind these numbers that will always, without fail,
determine its effects on ball motion/pin carry/ etc.

On the contrary, there is an article in the latest BJ about the effect of lane topography
on ball motion and performance. Here I would argue that the amount of lane tilt
(in any direction) would have at the very very best, a negligible effect on ball performance. Here, I am restricting my disagreement on TILT alone. This disagreement applies only to situations where the tilt is still within USBC tolerances and with balls thrown at normal velocities (and not balls rolled down ramps, etc.).
At lane tilts of .040 (maximum USBC tolerances), the amount of (ball) acceleration
(or deceleration) would be very very miniscule and would have no overall effect.
If the tilts were extreme, then there would be an effect, but these tilts would have to be MUCH MORE than .040 to even begin to have any effect on ball motion down the lane. The angle (slope) of a .040 incline is only .191 degrees ( less than 2 tenths of a degree). The acceleration/ deceleration of a ball would be so tiny as to be  insignificant, especially when considering how little time the ball spends traveling from release to the pins. It would take a ball rolling DOWN such a ramp approximately 18 seconds, at which time it would have accelerated only 0.387 mph in the direction of the slope. Quite insignificant. 

So the upshoot of all of this is that numbers can have a significant effect depending on
what it is you are attempting to measure. Sometimes it just takes a small quantity to make a measureable difference. Other times, it does not.

spmcgivern

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #109 on: July 21, 2015, 01:15:40 PM »
bergman,

Out of curiosity, when measuring the MOI of the bowling ball, wouldn't you use the average Rg?  If that is the case, then a ball with a low Rg of 2.50" and a differential of 0.060" would have the same MOI as a ball with a low Rg of 2.52" and a differential of 0.020". 

But in the long run, isn't all this bickering over pre-drilled mass properties irrelevant?  If a bowler wants a low Rg final product, can't they achieve that with specific drilling patterns and hole placements?

Maybe I am a noob who doesn't understand.....

JustRico

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #110 on: July 21, 2015, 02:00:19 PM »
^^^bingo^^^
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
...where knowledge creates striking results...
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amyers2002

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #111 on: July 21, 2015, 02:22:12 PM »
bergman,

Out of curiosity, when measuring the MOI of the bowling ball, wouldn't you use the average Rg?  If that is the case, then a ball with a low Rg of 2.50" and a differential of 0.060" would have the same MOI as a ball with a low Rg of 2.52" and a differential of 0.020". 

But in the long run, isn't all this bickering over pre-drilled mass properties irrelevant?  If a bowler wants a low Rg final product, can't they achieve that with specific drilling patterns and hole placements?

Maybe I am a noob who doesn't understand.....

Ok so just to make sure I'm understanding the line of thinking and maybe I'm taking this out too far does the predrilled Rg not even matter you can get anything you want through drilling and holes?

I do realize the beginning argument here was over a .03 difference in Rg but how far does this go out?

BradleyInIrving

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #112 on: July 21, 2015, 02:44:07 PM »
Ric, where was my bingo when i said the earlier? :P

JustRico

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #113 on: July 21, 2015, 02:48:05 PM »
I missed it

^^^^BINGO^^^^
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
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tommygn

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #114 on: July 21, 2015, 03:02:52 PM »
bergman,

Out of curiosity, when measuring the MOI of the bowling ball, wouldn't you use the average Rg?  If that is the case, then a ball with a low Rg of 2.50" and a differential of 0.060" would have the same MOI as a ball with a low Rg of 2.52" and a differential of 0.020". 

But in the long run, isn't all this bickering over pre-drilled mass properties irrelevant?  If a bowler wants a low Rg final product, can't they achieve that with specific drilling patterns and hole placements?

Maybe I am a noob who doesn't understand.....

An object with two very different Rg plains (high differential) will have more instability as it spins. An object that is stable and has close or the same Rg's about the axis, will have a very predictable spin. So in order for you to have your theory of the low Rg drill/ high Rg drill be effective, you need to have a wide variation between the axis, hence Rg mattering to create the differential that you are looking to be able to use.

If it were as simple as what you are trying to make it, ball companies would not spend all the money they do on different shapes and densities of cores. They would use one core, and change the cover stock, and layout to accommodate. Basically, what Lane #1 used to do with their original diamond core.
God creates us with a blank canvas, and the "picture" we paint is up to us. Paint a picture you like and love!

BradleyInIrving

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #115 on: July 21, 2015, 03:23:42 PM »
Tommy, didn't you just mention differential??  So now you're flip flopping between high/low rg and differential?

spmcgivern

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #116 on: July 21, 2015, 03:28:26 PM »
bergman,

Out of curiosity, when measuring the MOI of the bowling ball, wouldn't you use the average Rg?  If that is the case, then a ball with a low Rg of 2.50" and a differential of 0.060" would have the same MOI as a ball with a low Rg of 2.52" and a differential of 0.020". 

But in the long run, isn't all this bickering over pre-drilled mass properties irrelevant?  If a bowler wants a low Rg final product, can't they achieve that with specific drilling patterns and hole placements?

Maybe I am a noob who doesn't understand.....

An object with two very different Rg plains (high differential) will have more instability as it spins. An object that is stable and has close or the same Rg's about the axis, will have a very predictable spin. So in order for you to have your theory of the low Rg drill/ high Rg drill be effective, you need to have a wide variation between the axis, hence Rg mattering to create the differential that you are looking to be able to use.

If it were as simple as what you are trying to make it, ball companies would not spend all the money they do on different shapes and densities of cores. They would use one core, and change the cover stock, and layout to accommodate. Basically, what Lane #1 used to do with their original diamond core.
Or given the ranges USBC requires cores to be bowling companies try to manipulate differential and axis migration to achieve different shapes along with coverstocks.

tommygn

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #117 on: July 21, 2015, 03:30:11 PM »
Tommy, didn't you just mention differential??  So now you're flip flopping between high/low rg and differential?


No Brad, I am not flip-flopping. I have been saying since my first post in this thread,  that it is all connected. Ric is doing his best to convolute what I have been posting. Please go re-read my posts. I have maintained that they all have their parts of the equation. 
God creates us with a blank canvas, and the "picture" we paint is up to us. Paint a picture you like and love!

JustRico

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #118 on: July 21, 2015, 03:42:29 PM »
I have not convulated anything I've merely pointed out what is relevant and what isn't in ball reaction/motion...
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
...where knowledge creates striking results...
BowlTEc on facebook...www.iBowlTec.com

kidlost2000

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #119 on: July 21, 2015, 03:49:52 PM »
Both rg and diff have been mentioned through out with int diff not so much. As seen with the pics I've posted from bp software all will change a little to a lot depending on drill,  and then adding xholes to the equation.

If a bowler thinks cores with this rg or diff will not work for them it never will because its a built in excuse and expectation not to work same for many who say asymmetric cores don't work for them but adding a motion hole,  dual thumb,  or other aggressive weight hole to a symmtric core is great……. Really. Let them limit their self and their options. Lot of great bowling balls they will miss out on.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

bergman

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Re: low rg and high diff question...
« Reply #120 on: July 21, 2015, 03:59:18 PM »
Spmcgivern:

The final drill determines the ball's true dynamics. Regarding your question on moment of inertia (MOI), the core differential numbers don't tell us anything about
the MOI. Remember that MOI (I) =m r^2. So to calculate MOI, we need to know:

The MASS (or weight) of the imbalance
Its distance from its axis of rotation or, Rg

The numbers we see on a ball's specs that are designated as the ball's Rg and differential, such as when a ball is marked as 2.50 Rg and .060 differential simply
tell us DISTANCE. They tell us nothing about the mass of the imbalance.
The engineers who design these balls have to know these quantities in order to be able to determine exactly how a ball will actually react at a specific RG number.
Again, the equation above is a bare bones one because one has to take into effect
the total SUM of the imbalances along all 3 axes (in short, the differentials), that when combined and multiplied by the square of the distance of the center of mass of all 3, will yield a ball's MOI, the quantity that tells us about a ball's ability (or inability) to rev up.

In addition, each ball is limited in how much "Rg" can be had, for the lack of a better term, depending on core and to a lesser extent, shell composition considerations.

Again, I was never a fan of the oft quoted "Rg" as being the SOLE factor in determining a ball's rev capability. It's like asking how long it would take one to travel
say, 10 miles without knowing the traveler's velocity. To equate this to a bowling ball, the "10 miles" would be the Rg. and the velocity would be the mass of the  of the imbalance.