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Author Topic: pin to pap for asymmetrical vs symmetrical  (Read 9309 times)

xrayjay

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pin to pap for asymmetrical vs symmetrical
« on: September 08, 2016, 11:53:56 AM »
I haven't been much interested in Asymmetrical layout since the Vivid. I have one layout in all my balls (4x4x2) currently except on my breeze (5 1/8" pin to pap).

I have a NO Rules that has yet to be drilled and I don't really under stand the DA layouts on Asymm balls. Is there a difference with longer pin distance on Asymm balls vs Symmetrical balls?  I have a 10* tilt and balls tend to "stand up" quick for me. What type of layout will prolong that tilt? Excuse me if I don't make sense, after years on BR, I still not to bright on layouts. I leave that to the PSO, but I do like giving my input.

Does a round object have sides? I say yes, pizza has triangles..

aka addik since 2003

 

charlest

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Re: pin to pap for asymmetrical vs symmetrical
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2016, 12:25:29 PM »
AFAIHL (As far as I have learned)
For asymmetrics, pin distance of around 2 3/4" to 6 1/2", all provide maximum flare.
For drilling length, people seem to recommend 1 1/2" - 2 1/2" pin-PAP distances. (My problem with that is unless you have firmer balls peed, that also lowers the drilled RG, making the ball attempt to get into a roll earlier.)

For pin stances of max flare, 2.75" - 6.5", they can be be further divided into (my terminology is how I understand it, not as a technician might explain it) 2 categories: 2.75/3" - 4.5", roughly, and 4.5" - 6.5".
For pin-PAP distances of 4.5-6.5", after the breakpoint, the ball tends to go into a strong forward roll. This makes these drillings more suitable, in my mind) for playing direct, or an outside like. This also makes them unsuitable for playing a deep inside line (there seems to be less continuation.)
For pin-PAP distances of 2.75/3" - 4.5", the motion after the breakpoint is more side to side, (not exactly side to side, but to my mind, more normal) with more continuation. This makes such drilling more suitable for playing deeper inside lines.

I kind of proved this to myself with a Roto-Grip Theory. Not realizing all of the above, I put the pin over the bridge, about 5.5" pin-PAP for me. Even polished, playing inside the 3rd arrow, I left 10 pin after 10 pin; the ball had little continuation of drive. I re-drilled it pin in ring finger, about a 4" pin-PAP for me. That made all the difference in the world. It was like a ball re-born. It had strong, strong continuation from as deep a I needed.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

spmcgivern

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Re: pin to pap for asymmetrical vs symmetrical
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 12:29:18 PM »
Typically you will want a shorter pin-PAP to preserve tilt.  I too have had issues with asymmetrics and haven't had the best of luck on the drillings.

My guess would be the stronger the asymmetry in the drilled ball, the more the pin-PAP can affect the burning of tilt/rotation.

bowler001

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Re: pin to pap for asymmetrical vs symmetrical
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2016, 01:53:13 PM »
My guess would be the stronger the asymmetry in the drilled ball, the more the pin-PAP can affect the burning of tilt/rotation.

This is what I have experienced as well. In my particular experience, I pay closer attention to pin-pap distance if the intermediate diff is over .015. Otherwise, I drill pin-pap as I would a symm ball and use the drill angle to simply "tweak" how quick the ball transitions from skid to hook. In the case of the No Rules, the int diff is .018 for 15lb, so I would be a "little" more careful with this one but depends on what kind of motion you want. I would only use a shorter pin (less than 4") if Im looking to reduce flare/hook. If I was just simply looking for more length, I would opt for a larger drill angle (70-80 degrees for your tilt) and combine that with a pin distance you typically have success with.

The thing about asym balls is they are typically the top tier balls made, so not only do asyms naturally transition faster, they are marketed to have higher performance thus hook more which requires a decent lane surface and decent volume of oil, and people tend to put a lot of weight into the layout when in reality the ball (combined with a bowlers certain style) is just simply too much for the conditions present. My personal opinion is this is the real reason some people struggle with asymmetric balls.

xrayjay

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Re: pin to pap for asymmetrical vs symmetrical
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2016, 03:20:43 PM »
Thanks for the great info. Guys.. I won the no rules from a raffle and I normally only buy mid to entry level equipment.

The NR that RG sent has a 3-5-4" pin 3oz.  Will see what my PSO and I come up with.
Does a round object have sides? I say yes, pizza has triangles..

aka addik since 2003