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Author Topic: Reverse Flare?  (Read 7837 times)

boondoggle

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Reverse Flare?
« on: June 28, 2005, 03:13:50 PM »
What causes a ball to flare in the wrong direction?


 

Next Level PS

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2005, 11:28:23 PM »
The pin past the VAL or behind the track.
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JohnP

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2005, 10:20:29 AM »
I'm going to say more than I really know about this subject and ask that if I make mistakes others who are more knowledgeable please correct me.

"Reverse flare" is a confusing term, it implies that something drastic occurs and the flare "flips".  Actually, the direction of flare in the area we are concerned about - the track area beside the thumb and finger holes - is determined by the location of the bowties (yes, there are two, one on each side of the track).  The location of the bowtie nearest to the area of interest can be APPROXIMATED by drawing a line from the PAP through the pin to the first flare line.  In most layouts, this bowtie is located above and to the left of the finger holes (I will refer to tracks for right handers).  With the bowtie in this location, the track flare is away from both the thumb and fingers.  The layouts for some of the Hammer balls have a good graphic of this.  But if the pin is lowered far enough, the bowtie moves to below the fingers and the flare is now away from the thumb hole but toward the finger holes.  For a high 3/4 track, this type layout may clip the finger holes on the later flare rings.  And if the pin position is lowered even further, to positions well below the grip mid line, the bowtie is lowered so far (to a position below the thumb hole) that the flare is now toward both the finger and thumb holes.  This is what is referred to as "reverse flare".  Note that the flare has not actually reversed IN RELATION TO THE PIN AND PAP, which is the determining factor, but only in relation to the grip.  The lower pin positions are often referred to as full roller layouts, since for a full roller they flare away from the thumb and finger holes (still flaring in the same direction as determined by the pin, but away from the holes because of the track position).  But these layouts, with care, can also be used for low track 3/4 players.  This is how I understand "reverse flare".  --  JohnP  

As a humorous aside, I spell checked this and Word insists that bowtie should actually be "bootie".

charlest

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2005, 11:53:58 AM »
I believe a full roller drill will flare towards the thumb, or counterclock-wise for a right hander.

I also believe that the Shock and Awe and the Weapon of Mass Bias are designed to flare in the reverse direction.
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dR3w

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2005, 01:56:09 PM »
In regards to the location of the bow tie, what you said aobut being approximately at the intersection of the track and a line drawn from the PAP through the pin is correct ... but can be fine tuned.  According to one site that had a more scientific discussion of this topic, the larger the balls Diff the higher about that point on the track the bow tie will be centered.  It didn't give any details like (0.45 diff puts it 1" above intersection point).  It just stated that the higher the diff, the bowtie will be located further above the intersection point of the line drawn from PAP through pin, and the first track line.

I have noticed that my WMB had a funky bow tie placement.  It didn't seem to be situated where I would have expected it.  I can't imagine that it would flare the opposite direction (counter clockwise), as the ball would start to face away from the pocket as it moved the lane.  At least I think it would.

charlest

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2005, 04:21:48 PM »
quote:

I have noticed that my WMB had a funky bow tie placement.  It didn't seem to be situated where I would have expected it.  I can't imagine that it would flare the opposite direction (counter clockwise), as the ball would start to face away from the pocket as it moved the lane.  At least I think it would.


dR3w,
Please see my post just above yours for flaring of the WMB.
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dR3w

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2005, 07:22:33 PM »
Are you saying that you think that for the WMB that the pin moves further away from the track with each revolution of the ball?

charlest

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2005, 07:35:52 PM »
quote:
Are you saying that you think that for the WMB that the pin moves further away from the track with each revolution of the ball?


I think the Vanguard core in the Shock and Awe and in the WMB makes the ball flare from fingers towards the thumb, not from thumb towards the fingers, when thrown by a right-hander. If it matters to you, you should verify that with the MoRich people or one of the MoRich experts here: Precision or King Of The Mill or some others.
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dR3w

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2005, 09:47:20 PM »
For that to work and not flare over the thumb hole, then the bowtie would have to be centered to the left of the thumb and preferably below.  I will have to check to see if that is the case the next time I throw my WMB or S&A.

stanski

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2005, 09:56:15 PM »
For some reason my weapon of mass bias with the pin 4 inches from the axis and mb 5 3/4 inches does not flare more than an inch. Usually in this position, balls with that type of differential flare 5-6 inches for me. I don't know why it does this, maybe it is something to do with the core, but it sure acts more like a smooth rolling medium-light ball than a high load particle.
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JohnP

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2005, 10:02:33 PM »
quote:
I believe a full roller drill will flare towards the thumb, or counterclock-wise for a right hander.


charlest -- It depends.  Are you referring to a right handed full roller or 3/4 roller?  The counterclock wise part is correct for either, but for a full roller this is away from, not toward the thumb hole.

And I should have stated that my comments were primarily for balls with symmetric cores.  I don't do much with asymmetric balls, so haven't investigated their flare characteristics yet.  Also should have mentioned that balance holes affect the location of the bowtie.  --  JohnP

Henrik

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2005, 10:05:25 PM »
Brunswick Pro Staffer Patrick Girard shoot first pba 300 with reverse flare drilling

Picture:
http://www.brunswickinsiders.com/PBATour/PBATournaments/Trussville/Qualifyingroundstrussville.htm
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Henrik

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2005, 10:16:47 PM »
Drilling instruction

http://www.brunswickinsiders.com/PBATour/PBATournaments/Westbabylon/featuredbalwb.htm
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JohnP

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2005, 11:03:52 AM »
When looking at the flare rings in the picture included with the drilling instructions Henrik provided, remember that the flare is moving toward the finger holes, not away from them.  You can see why this layout could cause problems for a high 3/4 tracker.  --  JohnP

boondoggle

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Re: Reverse Flare?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2005, 12:15:29 PM »
I originally posted the question because I have a ball that unexpectactedly flares in the "reverse" direction.  That is to say, the bowtie is in the expected location (i'm left handed, so in my case its just to the right of the finger holes) but instead of flaring away from the thumb hole it flares towards and over it.

The ball is a Storm Sky Bolt. There's nothing exotic about the core, I believe it's a light bulb with a flip block.  The drilling I used was from Storm's drill sheet for this ball, Drilling #4 if I recall, which calls for the pin to be placed 1.5" from the PAP with the CG near the COG.  I don't remember seeing anything in the sheet about this drill flaring unusually, only that it was a low flare, even arc layout.

Never the less I have a ball that thumps.  The reaction was what I was hoping for and the ball hits like a ton of bricks, but the thumping is unseemly.  So, I have a new question.  Could I avoid redrilling the ball by taking out finger weight to lower the bowtie down to reside next to the thumb hole?  Thus allowing the flare to move around the thumb hole as a more conventional flare would move around the finger holes?

I was thinking of sinking the finger holes deeper and/or possibly puting an extra hole above and to the positive side of the fingers.