Author Topic: +/- side weight (Read 7614 times)

channel surfer · « **on:** February 10, 2004, 11:03:19 PM »

I just got to thinking. They say that positive side weight will make more length and a more aggressive backend, and that negative would hook sooner, with a weaker backend.

How can that be? By creating positive sideweight, your shifting weight towards your axis(which creates a earlier roll). So can someone please explain this. I just started thinking about it, and its mind boggling.
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proform · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2004, 02:01:11 PM »

T-GOD
no i wouldn't believe you because what you type proves your not.
you challenge my technicle knowledge yet what i say can be supported by the ball manufacturers,ball designers and physics. all you give to support your opinions is a new opinion, diversion and to say the above manufacturers,designers and technicle information they supply is wrong but with no proof. My credentials,knowledge and the facts that i have offered can be supported at any manufacturers site,drill sheet,seminar, ball rep. or knowledgeable technician.
you can't answer with facts because like i say you have only opinion,condition specific example and the idea that it is some conspiracy by the manufacturers and designers like Mo Pinel and Del Warren who as you said don't know any better. Mo Pinel just may have a "little" Physics knowledge, but obviously you know what nobody else knows.

T-GOD · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2004, 04:23:16 PM »

Pro, I told you to go ask Mo, about the weight closer to your PAP going longer. Don't take my word for it, GO ASK MO..!! And, don't ASSUME that you know what he'll say. Just ask him the simple question.

I've also explained to you why balls LAYED OUT with the pin/weight closer to your track, seem to go longer vs. weight/pin on your axis. But, you've failed to read or understand what I've written.

So, don't say that I don't know what I'm talking about, because of your misunderstanding..!! I've explained it to you thoroughly. You just can't understand what you read, like your buddy, Brian. =:^D

T-GOD · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2004, 05:47:39 PM »

I've tried to explain myself, WITH EXAMPLES, why what I'm saying is true. The only thing you guys have to back up your statements is "this is what all the manufacturers are telling us", so it must be true.

I've explained to you why what they're saying is partially true, but you won't take the time to understand it, about how the core falls to the positive side.

I've drilled balls pin axis, with the ending CG/weight on the axis. I also had the same exact ball drilled max leverage, with the ending CG/weight 3 3/8" from my axis point also.

Why is it that on oil, the max leverage ball picks up a roll in the midlane and hooks on the backend, and the pin axis ball doesn't even pick up a roll..?

Also, why is it that on dry lanes, the max leverage ball rolls out, and the pin axis ball can swing the whole lane and strike..?

Because, the max leverage rolls earlier and the pin axis goes longer..!!

Now I know what you might say, with your narrow minds. "Oh, the leverage drilling is flaring to a fresh surface, that's why it picks up a roll sooner".

Well, what if I don't wipe of the oil rings..? Now the next shot, the ball won't be rolling on a fresh surface, it'll be rolling over oil rings. So what now..? =:^D

proform · « **Reply #19 on:** February 14, 2004, 07:18:27 AM »

once again tg you show your lack of knolwedge, that is condition specific. but you don't understand it and are speaking from a bowlers view who goes to his proshop operator tells him/her "i want to stand 30 and swing to 5", well on what and what ball surface, oil pattern, head oil,breakdown,first shif fresh or later with carrydown,type of oil will it carrydown. but you can't and will never understand theese factors.
1. I don't need to call Mo Pinel i have spoken to him in the past, have read his articles/books/site/drill sheets--and i am correct because i agree with him--you need to speak to him and may finally learn something or sound rediculous arguing you opinions.
2. you only examples keep being condition specific(do you understand what that means?) and are with drill patterns that don't cover the point...you said pin near pap goes longer and pin near track hooks earlier these are absolutely incorrect on their own...not how pin axis vs. max lev. works on dry that doesn't in any way cover our debate.. because 1)its condition specific 2)is a drill pattern that involves pin,mass bias or cg variations,posible weight variances and variances with pin heights over midline...
you need tio open your mind and ask the question to yourself--why is tg stubborn and alcking the knowledge to understand what everyone else can and be able to understand how oil patterns can be manipulated by drill patterns and surface changes.. tg go to a seminar ask questions and open your mind and you too can learn..

T-GOD · « **Reply #20 on:** February 14, 2004, 10:52:13 AM »

Whatever Pro, I personally know Mo. I've worked with Mo, and take that to the bank.

quote:
I don't need to call Mo Pinel i have spoken to him in the past, have read his articles/books/site/drill sheets--and i am correct because i agree with him--you need to speak to him and may finally learn something or sound rediculous arguing you opinions.

I asked you not to assume what he'll say. But, hey, your brainwashed.

quote:
you only examples keep being condition specific(do you understand what that means?)

All drillings are condition specific. That's what you do, have different layouts for different conditions. Different layouts roll different on different conditions. But hey, you keep drilling the same pattern for different conditions and have fun..!!

quote:
you need to open your mind and ask the question to yourself--why is tg stubborn and alcking the knowledge to understand what everyone else can

You need to ask yourself the same question and why you like to be HERDED LIKE A SHEEP..!!

quote:
and be able to understand how oil patterns can be manipulated by drill patterns and surface changes

Like I stated above, you need to understand how DRILL PATTERNS AND SURFACE CHANGES ARE MANIPULATED BY OIL PATTERNS..!!

quote:
tg go to a seminar ask questions and open your mind and you too can learn..

I give seminars, you need to open your mind so you can learn..!!

I'm through wasting my time with you. =:^D

proform · « **Reply #21 on:** February 14, 2004, 03:40:13 PM »

tg
again no facts just diversion
done waisting my time with you especially when what you just said was proform go ahead drilling different patterns for different conditions, what you just claimed is a specific drill pattern always works and/or is ideal for all conditions.. that is not accurate and shows your lack of knowledge and in what matter did you work with Mo because resurfacing lanes for him does not give you knowledge in ball dynamics. also what seminars could you be teaching and then coming on here with nothing of substinance to back your opinion on our debate.
I will go on drilling with technigues i have learned thru 21 years of proshop experience,training,experimentation and proven technigues, which are supported by the manufacturers(that includes Morich)and if i recall Brian Omaras credentials included years of teaching at the Dick Ritgers Academy as well as being on staff with Hammer. See some of theese are credentials you can acquire thru experience,success,hardwork and the wiilingness to learn from experts with many years more experience than yourself.

T-GOD · « **Reply #22 on:** February 14, 2004, 04:15:50 PM »

Pro, you wouldn't know substance if it HIT YOU IN THE FACE..!! I'm through with you. =:^D

proform · « **Reply #23 on:** February 14, 2004, 05:52:42 PM »

tg
i know substance and have shown you have none,
i got tired of watching you vomit your nonsense while you debated Brian Omara and only stated i agreed with him, you pulled me in, i have been reading your nonsense and debate with Brian and could read your junk no longer.
the majority of people viewing this site come hear for knowledge and to have questions answered and don't need to hear your ranting that the manufacturers,designers,trained ball technicians etc. are lying or offering false information to sell equipment.
The bottom line is what you say equates to Ford telling automobile buyers put cleaning solution in your cars so when the car dies after 1 day you go back and buy another one from Ford. that is how stupid your statements and opinions sound.
you and your junk are done and hold no water.

T-GOD · « **Reply #24 on:** February 14, 2004, 06:07:39 PM »

quote:
i know substance and have shown you have none

My point exactly. =:^D

proform · « **Reply #25 on:** February 14, 2004, 07:01:46 PM »

tg sarcasm aside
you finally said something wise repeat after us all "T-God has NO substance!"
that is the only sense you have made in as you stated over 3 years.
now T-GOD can be saved and may learn something.
starting Monday we can start a new post on here where Brian and others can teach you one new(old news for most) lesson each week and soon you will be on your way to learning how to drill bowling balls or atleast what to ask your ball technician for.
Let the T-GOD on the road to bowling recovery begin.
Have a nice weekend T-GOD I have faith that you too can learn!

Strider · « **Reply #26 on:** February 14, 2004, 07:39:17 PM »

I was hoping to extract the kind of information I could learn from because I don't know much about drilling. At least I can read and understand what T-GOD has written. Whether you agree with or not, at least he is providing solid explanations to his arguements.
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channel surfer · « **Reply #27 on:** February 14, 2004, 07:44:00 PM »

Well both have given explanations, but, I think I should find some older ball, drill it pin axis, and see what happens. According to my knowledge, and everyone else, it should hook earlier with a weak backend, and shouldnt flare that much.
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T-GOD · « **Reply #28 on:** February 14, 2004, 09:42:04 PM »

Thanks Strider. At least someone, other than me, can understand what they read. =:^D

proform · « **Reply #29 on:** February 16, 2004, 10:57:31 AM »

Strider here is an example of what we (tg,brian and myself) were debating. tg feels that pin closer to pap goes longer and pin closer to track hooks earlier. this is not a debate about what drill pattern does what on a specific condition. there is a strong possibillity that tg,brian and myself may use the same drill patterns for the same style bowler on a given condition.
I have not disagreed in most of his specific condition specific patterns but have at times disagreed on why the drill pattern works.

*pin
O O O O *PIN
. @pap . @PAP(wighthole if needed)
cg cg
O O
Drilling A Drilling B
Drilling A will go longer than Drlling B with a similar shaped backend.

*pin
O O O O *pin
. Xweighthole . Xweighthole
cg cg
O O
Drilling A Drilling B
Driiling A will go longer than Drilling B with a similar shaped backend.

All balls balanced out with 0 sideweight, 0 finger weight, same surfaces. now tg there is no ending sideweight and same cg to pap distances the only variance between Drilling A and Drilling B is pin to pap distances. this is why us ball drillers as you said drill different patterns for different conditions. they each take advantage of the oil pattern. that is why i have repeatedly said your examples are condition specific and not stand alone standard for all oil patterns.
the example of short oil(80's- 90's) and why axis weight worked was beacause the shotness of the pattern which varied in volume, the constant was the length of oil. axis weight worked because it hooked early in the oil and didn't over hook at the backend(pos. weight was drilled out=0 side wt.). where as a finger positive(finger wt=more length) would go too long and overreact after clearing the oil and this is because it didn't match the oil specific condition not that it was a useless drill pattern.

proform · « **Reply #30 on:** February 16, 2004, 11:20:47 AM »

sorry about how the patterns came out.
first example is cg in palm for both Drilling A and Drilling B, Drilling A has pin closer to track and Drilling B has pin closer to pap.
second example is cg 3 3/8 from pap for both Drilling A and Drilling B, Drilling A has pin closer to track and Drilling B has pin closer to pap.
my point is regardless of cg to pap distance the pin placed closer to track will always go longer and the pin closer to pap will always hook sooner at with the cg to pap distances being the constant.
My point is pin to pap distances determine length and the cg to pap distance and/or mass biass to pap distance shape the backend. Yes TG this agrees with the manufacturers not because of blind faith but thru 21 yrs experience and experimentaion.

Author Topic: +/- side weight (Read 7614 times)

channel surfer

+/- side weight

proform

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channel surfer

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