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Author Topic: smoothest layout?  (Read 24039 times)

J_w73

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smoothest layout?
« on: January 13, 2015, 01:43:34 AM »
I have used a pin at center grip to create a smooth layout with some success.  This puts the pin 5 inches from my PAP.  This works best with short pins to where a weight hole isn't needed as a weight hole usually increases the flare and asymmetry and causes more movement.

Does anyone have any feedback on how a 1 3/4 pin to pap would differ in reaction?  I know it would put the core in a low rg orientation.  It should also have similar flare to the 5" pin to pap. Is there an issue with the pin possibly locking onto the PAP?

What layout do you use when you want to smooth out the reaction and take as much flip out of the ball as possible?
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TWOHAND834

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2015, 02:16:29 PM »
Short pins to pap are usually condition specific. I drilled up a Grip It trying to smooth out the left to right, and going up the lane the ball checked up too soon, and if I tried to go left to right, it didn't have enough to get around the corner. If you're looking to manage flare, you can either go with a lower diff core and still drill it strong, IE a Scream, Tropical Breeze, Strike King, and adjust the cover (sanding with the initial track) to get it thru the fronts cleaner, and be smoother on the back.

But I also agree with northface. A simple hand position change could allow you to stay with the ball drilled rico and get a totally different reaction.

This is exactly why when I have drilled a couple balls with the pin at 2 inches from PAP; I have done it with weaker balls.  I have never drilled anything higher end with a 2 inch layout.  I had an Ebonite Black Ice drilled that way and it was far and away the best ball I had for both house and tournament conditions when I wanted to square up.  Cover was weak enough to still push through the fronts but the backend reaction was super smooth yet just enough angle to kick the 10s. 

The key now to get smooth rolling balls; is balls with very low diffs and/or balls drilled with the pin below the fingers in order to lower the overall diff (take a ball with a diff of .040 or lower and drop the diff almost in half by putting the pin between the fingers and center of grip).  My two smoothest rolling balls right now are a Deep Freeze (.029 diff OOB) and a Take Down which is box finish but pin below the bridge to cut the diff down.  Another thing to add is take the shine off a ball if it comes out of the box shiny to also smoothen out the backend.

I dont understand this, pins below the fingers flare significantly more than balls with pins above the fingers, i.e below the bridge vs over bridge. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Using your theory.

No they do not.  Even according to Blueprint; if you put the pin below the fingers the diff decreases fairly significantly.  My Take Down with a pin down 5 inches from PAP only flares about 3 inches at the most and that is even with a P3 hole which is supposed to increase flare.  I have seen the Blueprint software with multiple balls.  Flare on every ball decreased when putting the pin below as opposed to above.  Watch the vids of Radicals Score and Guru.  They even post what the differentials are with the pin down and pin up balls.  The Guru pin up was over .06 differential.
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northface28

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 02:32:26 PM »
Will people ever alter their releases instead of looking for magic layouts or balls?

I'm sure you only have and use one ball then?  Am I correct?

Nice try, Im smart enough to know my limitations and don't think some magical layout or ball will make up for my shortcomings.
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J_w73

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2015, 02:34:05 PM »
Short pins to pap are usually condition specific. I drilled up a Grip It trying to smooth out the left to right, and going up the lane the ball checked up too soon, and if I tried to go left to right, it didn't have enough to get around the corner. If you're looking to manage flare, you can either go with a lower diff core and still drill it strong, IE a Scream, Tropical Breeze, Strike King, and adjust the cover (sanding with the initial track) to get it thru the fronts cleaner, and be smoother on the back.

But I also agree with northface. A simple hand position change could allow you to stay with the ball drilled rico and get a totally different reaction.

This is exactly why when I have drilled a couple balls with the pin at 2 inches from PAP; I have done it with weaker balls.  I have never drilled anything higher end with a 2 inch layout.  I had an Ebonite Black Ice drilled that way and it was far and away the best ball I had for both house and tournament conditions when I wanted to square up.  Cover was weak enough to still push through the fronts but the backend reaction was super smooth yet just enough angle to kick the 10s. 

The key now to get smooth rolling balls; is balls with very low diffs and/or balls drilled with the pin below the fingers in order to lower the overall diff (take a ball with a diff of .040 or lower and drop the diff almost in half by putting the pin between the fingers and center of grip).  My two smoothest rolling balls right now are a Deep Freeze (.029 diff OOB) and a Take Down which is box finish but pin below the bridge to cut the diff down.  Another thing to add is take the shine off a ball if it comes out of the box shiny to also smoothen out the backend.

I dont understand this, pins below the fingers flare significantly more than balls with pins above the fingers, i.e below the bridge vs over bridge. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Using your theory.

No they do not.  Even according to Blueprint; if you put the pin below the fingers the diff decreases fairly significantly.  My Take Down with a pin down 5 inches from PAP only flares about 3 inches at the most and that is even with a P3 hole which is supposed to increase flare.  I have seen the Blueprint software with multiple balls.  Flare on every ball decreased when putting the pin below as opposed to above.  Watch the vids of Radicals Score and Guru.  They even post what the differentials are with the pin down and pin up balls.  The Guru pin up was over .06 differential.

I agree with Twohand.  A hole at the pin or top of the core is going to shorten the core and lower the differential. When you put the pin at the center grip you are shortening the core with the thumb and finger holes thus lowering the differential.

A hole at 6 3/4 from the pin ( pin above the fingers)  is going into the side of the core and will create the most asymmetry and increase the differential the most. A hole 3 3/8 from the pin will take weight out at an equal distant from the top and side of the core and thus change the dynamics of the core the least.   
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TWOHAND834

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 02:34:43 PM »
Having just watched the video of the Guru on youtube; ball starts with .044 diff.  The pin up drilling increased the diff to .064 and the pin down ball decreased the diff to .030.  That is a huge difference.
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northface28

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2015, 02:36:06 PM »
Short pins to pap are usually condition specific. I drilled up a Grip It trying to smooth out the left to right, and going up the lane the ball checked up too soon, and if I tried to go left to right, it didn't have enough to get around the corner. If you're looking to manage flare, you can either go with a lower diff core and still drill it strong, IE a Scream, Tropical Breeze, Strike King, and adjust the cover (sanding with the initial track) to get it thru the fronts cleaner, and be smoother on the back.

But I also agree with northface. A simple hand position change could allow you to stay with the ball drilled rico and get a totally different reaction.

This is exactly why when I have drilled a couple balls with the pin at 2 inches from PAP; I have done it with weaker balls.  I have never drilled anything higher end with a 2 inch layout.  I had an Ebonite Black Ice drilled that way and it was far and away the best ball I had for both house and tournament conditions when I wanted to square up.  Cover was weak enough to still push through the fronts but the backend reaction was super smooth yet just enough angle to kick the 10s. 

The key now to get smooth rolling balls; is balls with very low diffs and/or balls drilled with the pin below the fingers in order to lower the overall diff (take a ball with a diff of .040 or lower and drop the diff almost in half by putting the pin between the fingers and center of grip).  My two smoothest rolling balls right now are a Deep Freeze (.029 diff OOB) and a Take Down which is box finish but pin below the bridge to cut the diff down.  Another thing to add is take the shine off a ball if it comes out of the box shiny to also smoothen out the backend.

I dont understand this, pins below the fingers flare significantly more than balls with pins above the fingers, i.e below the bridge vs over bridge. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Using your theory.

No they do not.  Even according to Blueprint; if you put the pin below the fingers the diff decreases fairly significantly.  My Take Down with a pin down 5 inches from PAP only flares about 3 inches at the most and that is even with a P3 hole which is supposed to increase flare.  I have seen the Blueprint software with multiple balls.  Flare on every ball decreased when putting the pin below as opposed to above.  Watch the vids of Radicals Score and Guru.  They even post what the differentials are with the pin down and pin up balls.  The Guru pin up was over .06 differential.

Im not the most technically savvy bowler, what I do know is what I see. I have two balls, an Optimus, one is pin over bridge, the other is pin under bridge. No extra holes.  The pin down one flares 5 inches with the flare separation wide, the pin up one flares maybe 2-3 inches with the flares very, very tight. Using the info you provided it should be the other way around right?
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northface28

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2015, 02:37:26 PM »
Having just watched the video of the Guru on youtube; ball starts with .044 diff.  The pin up drilling increased the diff to .064 and the pin down ball decreased the diff to .030.  That is a huge difference.


Am I wrong in assuming higher diff equates more flare?
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J_w73

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2015, 02:39:37 PM »
Will people ever alter their releases instead of looking for magic layouts or balls?

I'm sure you only have and use one ball then?  Am I correct?

Nice try, Im smart enough to know my limitations and don't think some magical layout or ball will make up for my shortcomings.

From your comment it sounds like you only have one ball.  Why would you have more than one if you can just change your hand position, speed , and rpms and make the ball work on any shot?

I do understand what you are saying but it isn't magic. It is physics and science, and if it helps then why not use it?  If you have "unlimited" talent than you can do anything you want and make any ball work on any condition.  No one does so why not give ourselves the best chance?
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ridethegutter

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2015, 02:43:30 PM »
I have a slingshot and an outcast both drilled with the pin 2 inches from
my pap. Very smooth rolling balls.

J_w73

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2015, 02:46:26 PM »
I have a slingshot and an outcast both drilled with the pin 2 inches from
my pap. Very smooth rolling balls.

Hey, thanks for replying to the post.  Do you see the balls wanting to roll out early with this layout?
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J_w73

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2015, 02:51:31 PM »

Im not the most technically savvy bowler, what I do know is what I see. I have two balls, an Optimus, one is pin over bridge, the other is pin under bridge. No extra holes.  The pin down one flares 5 inches with the flare separation wide, the pin up one flares maybe 2-3 inches with the flares very, very tight. Using the info you provided it should be the other way around right?

Do they both have the same pin to pap?  Finger holes the same depth?  Send pics if you can.
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ridethegutter

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2015, 02:52:13 PM »
I have never experienced any rollout with either ball. Great for playing straighter lines but can also hook it at the same time.

Impending Doom

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2015, 02:53:49 PM »
This is the problem with the Internet...anyone can be considered knowledgeable without have true data to back up what they post...

Not sure what post you are referring to.

Most of them.

JustRico

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2015, 03:15:04 PM »
Thank you^^^^
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J_w73

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2015, 03:22:06 PM »
Thank you^^^^

Well, if I said something you don't agree with, I would like to know.  If I'm wrong, I would like to learn.
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TWOHAND834

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2015, 03:23:37 PM »
Having just watched the video of the Guru on youtube; ball starts with .044 diff.  The pin up drilling increased the diff to .064 and the pin down ball decreased the diff to .030.  That is a huge difference.


Am I wrong in assuming higher diff equates more flare?

Thats exactly right.  A higher diff means more flare potential.  That why you see plastic balls flare only an inch because the diff is so low.
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
Former Classic Products Assistant Manager