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Author Topic: The difficult coke bottle test!  (Read 14103 times)

LuckyLefty

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The difficult coke bottle test!
« on: October 14, 2004, 03:45:51 AM »
If one does not have a fitting ball (the best method) but wants to get there lateral thumb pitch correct.  A very important task analgous to getting a proper grip in golf.

You see the proper lateral thumb pitch allows one to use there natural anatomy in their favor and if set properly allows the bowler to easily and naturally get the fingers around the side of the ball so that the arm can travel up the path of the ball(or even to the outside of the ball slightly and give the ball enough side turn to get back to the pocket).  This proper motion is analgous to the inside out swing in golf.  Those with the proper grip can return the clubface to square or slightly closed to the path of the clubhead swing and get the ball to draw(hook).  Those with the improper grip cannot swing on the inside path and get the ball to hook, they can only hook if they pull the ball.

So it is in bowling.  Those without this position properly set for their anatomy cannot properly get their arm to swing inside out and still hook the ball without all sorts of compensations.  (Why make it hard).

Thus the Coke bottle test to determine the proper lateral pitch!  Very good substitute for the fitting ball.

Many people however have trouble with the coke bottle test.  Recently one of our users on this site JJWEB was trying to fix pitch and span.  Honestly looking for help he sent pictures to our community asking for help.

I think I and some of the in the business drilling daily gurus have maybe helped him.  I also pointed out to him his incorrect steps in performing coke bottle test and hopefully helped him do it correctly.

He was nice enough to allow me to use his pictures to illustrate how not to do the coke bottle test and how to do it right!  This is not meant to insult him but only to possibly help others!  I thank him for his pictures!

Here we go.

1st attempt
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxMTk4NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

This won't do, this bottle way smaller than a 16 ounce or 20 ounce coke bottle does not even cause the user to grasp it with the thumb.  Object is just in palm of hand.  Falsely gives a result of 1/8 lateral out.

2nd attempt
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxNjg1NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
This won't do either, this LARGE 24 ounce coke bottle does not allow grasping with the thumb also giving a false result of 1/8 lateral out!

3rd attempt
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAyMDYzNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

Ah hah finally a bottle that allows grasping a 16 ounce bottle!!!
The coke bottle at 16 ounces to 12 ounces is still thebest!
But now we see the real result.  Thumb TIP points at his RING finger!  
Well that is a big difference! That calls for 3/8 lateral right.

Quite a difference from our first result of 1/8 left lateral.

I've made some recommendations based on these pictures to Mr. JJWeb lets see how things shake out!

Thanks JJ.

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS hope this helps somebody!
PPS again the final test is to go out to your center and see where your arm travels in relation to your ball path.  Here is a great test if you have the resources to do it!  
1. Drill up 3 to 4 balls exactly the same except for lateral thumb pitch.  Since I test at 1/4 lateral under palm(left for me) I bring balls set at 0, 1/8 lateral under palm, 1/4 lateral under palm and 3/8 lateral under palm.
2. Throw each one being careful to monitor where your arm travels inrelation to the ball path.  All of a sudden you will see it!  

The balls with too little lateral under palm for you will NOT hook back if you swing your arm to the outside of the ball path even the least little bit!  The balls with Too much lateral under palm pitch will always have to be thrown with your arm traveling well outside the proper ball path and will make it hard to stay behind the ball if you decide to do that.  Finally with just the proper lateral  under palm pitch your arm will be able to go straight up the ball path or just slightly outside the ball path and still return the ball back to the pocket.... ah perfection.  (note the answer does not HAVE to be lateral under palm, it more often is but it does not HAVE to be for your anatomy).

This exercise is so much easier to do with golf.  We just take a student and teach him how to swing the club thru the tee spot on an inside to out line.
If he slices we strengthen the grip until the ball starts to return back towards the target(the perfect small draw).  We don't have to bring four sets of grips etc.  

However the concept is the same!  Bon Appetit!
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

 

J_Mac

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2004, 11:55:57 AM »
LL, would a piece of 2" diameter PVC pipe be about the right size?  The OD ends up being 2 3/8".
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intergalactic

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2004, 11:58:47 AM »
Great post we need more posts like this
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LuckyLefty

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2004, 12:03:26 PM »
Probably, if it's tough to find a coke bottle.

Another thing that works is if you have an additional arm.

Grab your forearm with your bowling hand at the spot where your thumb almost touches your fingers this works absolutely great also!

REgards,

Luckyl
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

intergalactic

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2004, 12:09:40 PM »
LL, when do you think a bowler should start messing around with pitches?
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LuckyLefty

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2004, 12:17:02 PM »
Just like a golfer getting his grip right the day he starts!

A bowler should have his hand properly fitted the first day he has his first new ball from throw 1!  His driller should watch the results of his handiwork and verify arm is travelling properly in relation to ball path!

REgards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

J_Mac

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2004, 12:20:23 PM »
If my thumb ends up between my index and ring finger I should have what lateral pitch for my thumb?

Thanks LL, you da man!
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LuckyLefty

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2004, 12:27:24 PM »
That is a wide range, what does your middle finger think of all this?

REgards,

Luckylefty
One should be able to distinguish between on index finger, between index and middle, on middle etc.
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

J_Mac

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2004, 12:33:18 PM »
Doh!  

I was on hold with the bowling alley trying to get on a squad for Ebonite Demo Days tomorrow and wasn't paying attention.  How about between middle and index?
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LuckyLefty

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2004, 12:37:42 PM »
He he!

The table goes like this

Index finger = 1/8 lateral out(left for righties)
Between Index and middle = 0
Middle = 1/8 lateral under palm(right for righties)
Between middle and ring = 1/4 lateral right for righties
Ring = 3/8 lateral right (or lateral under palm)
and so on.

Your answer!!  0!

REgards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

intergalactic

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2004, 12:54:06 PM »
My thumb is pointing right at my index finger
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Faster than a bullet
Terrifying scream
Enraged and full of anger
He's half man and half machine

Rides the metal monster
Breathing smoke and fire
Closing in with vengeance soaring high
www.JudasPriest.com

T-GOD

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2004, 12:58:22 PM »
Lucky, I agree with almost everything you have to say, especially with your ball layouts. But, I have to disagree with you in this instance.

The first pic of jj holding a spray bottle is the correct interpretation of the coke bottle test, in my opinion. In the third pic, jj is squeezing the ball/bending his thumb joint. Not only that, his thumb is not laying flat on the bottle. His thumb is tilted and the side of his thumb is touching the bottle, not the flat, gripping part.

Pitches are not used to just fit a persons hand, they're designed to allow for a different release. Meaning, anybody can use almost whatever pitch and span they'd like..!! It just depends on how they want to release the ball.

Different pitches and spans will dictate how you need to release the ball, giving you a different ball reaction from each release and/or pitch/span.

Let's take for an example a person with a "hinged"/"double jointed" thumb. This person has great flexibility in his thumb. So, when he puts his hand in the ball, he's able to touch his palm to the surface of the ball, laying his hand flat on the ball. This person is going to have a lot of forward roll on the ball, because he can basically palm the ball.

Now let take for example, a person with a very stiff thumb, kinda like jj. When he puts his thumb straight down into the ball, his palm is not even close to touching the surface of the ball. The ball is laying differently in this persons hand, vs. the person with a hinged thumb. Therefore, it will be nearly impossible for both bowlers to release the ball the same way.

As a matter of fact, the person with his palm off the ball will be more like a spinner or have a lot of axis tilt. For the most part, bowlers with more forward roll usually have a stronger ball and/or more revs on the ball, because they are more behind the ball at release.

So, because bowlers hands are different, bowlers who were born with certain hand characteristics will naturally have a better release than some other bowlers. In order to compensate for this, different pitches and beveling techniques need to be employed to "level the playing field" so to speak.

If it's more desirable to have your palm laying more flat on the ball, because now you can get more forward roll and less axis tilt, the person with a stiff thumb is at a disadvantage. So, in order to get this persons hand more flat on the ball, they have to use some away pitch, as well as reverse combined with bevel, to have his hand laying more flat on the ball.

Like I stated earlier, pitches and spans are designed to help in releasing the ball in a desired manner. We're not locked into 1 set of spans or pitches, limiting us to 1 type of release, based on how we were born..!! We can utilize pitches, spans and bevel to make up for what God gave or didn't give us naturally. =:^D

Edited on 10/14/2004 12:50 PM

No Fear

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2004, 01:04:11 PM »
LL,Great Post....I've been aware of the proper diameter of the test object.....Good to hear you confirm....I believe this is the most important step in fitting a ball....Thanks to bill taylor's fitting book....But the rest of his book has spans to long & too much reverse pitch on thumbs....I personally struggled for years with my lateral thumb pitch....I measure 1/2" away from palm....My thumb sits higher on my hand than most people & the test shows my thumb 3/8" above my index finger....I was always afraid to try 1/2" away pitch(i tried up to 3/4" But it was too much)Glad I did because with My anatomy its perfection.....Out of curiosity whats the biggest extreme "under & away" pitch you have measured?

Brian362

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2004, 01:20:49 PM »
quote:
Different pitches and spans will dictate how you need to release the ball, giving you a different ball reaction from each release and/or pitch/span.

Now let take for example, a person with a very stiff thumb, kinda like jj. When he puts his thumb straight down into the ball, his palm is not even close to touching the surface of the ball. The ball is laying differently in this persons hand, vs. the person with a hinged thumb. Therefore, it will be nearly impossible for both bowlers to release the ball the same way.

As a matter of fact, the person with his palm off the ball will be more like a spinner or have a lot of axis tilt. For the most part, bowlers with more forward roll usually have a stronger ball and/or more revs on the ball, because they are more behind the ball at release.

So, because bowlers hands are different, bowlers who were born with certain hand characteristics will naturally have a better release than some other bowlers. In order to compensate for this, different pitches and beveling techniques need to be employed to "level the playing field" so to speak.

If it's more desirable to have your palm laying more flat on the ball, because now you can get more forward roll and less axis tilt, the person with a stiff thumb is at a disadvantage. So, in order to get this persons hand more flat on the ball, they have to use some away pitch, as well as reverse combined with bevel, to have his hand laying more flat on the ball.
 =:^D

Edited on 10/14/2004 12:50 PM


I have a lot of axis tilt and my palm doesn't touch the ball very much, if at all. Does this mean that my span could be wrong? Or should I say, could my span and pitches be "better?"
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JackDeJack

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2004, 01:22:34 PM »
Have old drilled ball with 1/8 left thumb pitch.
New measurment give me 1/16 right, and its comfort for me.

Can it be reason why my old bal is hooking to little than I expect ???
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