Author Topic: Thoughts on using the conventional grip? (Read 21214 times)

Juggernaut · « **on:** June 19, 2011, 07:03:00 AM »

Back before I broke my arm and fractured my elbow, I had given this some thought. I have, since I became reasonably proficient, always been a slowish, rev dominant bowler. I have been able to change me release some, adding a bit of tilt (yes, tilt), which allowed me to get a bit more length and a smoother reaction, but I still had trouble with the balls just being too strong for me most of the time. When the oil seemed good to me, 80%-90% of the other guys were complaining that their balls "wouldn't hook", so I knew I needed to learn how to bowl on "their" condition, but I was never fully able to do so, so I just did the best I could with what I had and was afraid to "screw up" an expensive ball by drilling it conventional.

Then, while I'm out of action and healing up, I come across this guy, who claims to be using conventional grip stuff, and also claims to have 34 300's and 17 800's while using it. I know it is a cake shot, but give it a look and see what you think. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRD0ocDtv3w .

Now I'm really thinking about drilling one up conventional for when I can bowl again. My grip strength isn't going to be back to normal for a while, and I just need to get my elbow used to handling the weight in a swinging motion, but I also want to score as well as possible. Do you guys think that this might be something I could expect much out of or not?

tommyboy74 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 19, 2011, 03:21:06 PM »

It's a tough call on that one. I know that the conventional grip will reduce the rev rate but it forces you to stay behind the ball which can help at this point. My only concern wtih being rev dominant is that you may chew your fingers up more compared to a fingertip grip because you're going into the second crease.

Have you considered a Sarge-Easter grip? That could be an alternative. Michael Fagan switched to it a while back because he was having problems with his hand/wrist and it nearly eliminated the pressure that was going on with his ring finger/hand/wrist. Then again Chris Warren when he made a PBA show for the first time in over 10 years I believe around 2008 or 2009, he went conventional to help relieve pressure.

Biggest thing is that you want to be comfortable. If conventional helps, then go for it.

My arsenal

Heavy Oil: Storm Virtual Gravity Nano: 2000 AB
Medium-Heavy Oil: Storm Anarchy: 1500 polished
Medium Oil: Roto Grip Nomad Dagger: 1500 polished

Medium-Light Oil: Roto Grip Rising Star: 1500 polished

Edited by tommyboy74 on 6/19/2011 at 3:24 PM

Juggernaut · « **Reply #2 on:** June 19, 2011, 03:54:06 PM »

Yeah, I've thought about the Sarge-Easter, but it is exactly guy like Mr. Fagan and BrunsNick that kept me from really considering it as an alternative. They both use it, yet still seem to get "all over it" at the release point, which I think I would have the tendency to want to do if the grip felt "normal" enough. I've used a dropped ring finger before (not a true Sarge, just a drop finger), and I bowl good that way, but I still end up getting too much rotation.

A senior bowler, and member of the PBA and hall of fame, who ALWAYS used the conventional grip, was Mr. 900 himself, Glenn Allison. He seems to have done reasonably well with it. And, in the ANCIENT days of bowling, they used to only use one finger and the thumb, which ended up with the ball only having two holes in it, and was plenty because there was so much friction.

To my "normal" release, there was the same condition, too much friction, which is why I had been thinking about doing this.

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 19, 2011, 04:38:00 PM »

It may be worth having a vid of you bowling to better judge what adjustments to make. I imagine you have a bowling ball or two laying around that you could plug the thumb, or fingers and try conventional grip and not be out more then $30 to do. Or find any house ball and adjust with tape to try and see what you notice in terms of reaction and revs to see if it does what you think. Many of todays house balls are urethane with a pancake weight block.

Be good, or be good at it.

Juggernaut · « **Reply #4 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:04:52 PM »

OK, but be gentle, this video is from a while back and I didn't know the wife was filming it until near the end. You can't see much, but it's all I've got. The bowling actually starts about 0:46, and stops about 2:30. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF9Gm9umOY4 . At this point, I had already toned down the release quite a bit, and was just getting reasonably consistent at the release with more tilt.

And your right, I do have a couple around I could plug, but most are milder type stuff. Guess I didn't think it through, after all, what I should be worried about is my ability to get rid of the ball good without hurting myself. If the stuff isn't strong enough, i can always fix that later.

kidlost2000 wrote on 6/19/2011 4:38 PM:It may be worth having a vid of you bowling to better judge what adjustments to make. I imagine you have a bowling ball or two laying around that you could plug the thumb, or fingers and try conventional grip and not be out more then $30 to do. Or find any house ball and adjust with tape to try and see what you notice in terms of reaction and revs to see if it does what you think. Many of todays house balls are urethane with a pancake weight block.

Be good, or be good at it.

Edited by Juggernaut on 6/19/2011 at 6:10 PM

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 19, 2011, 07:31:19 PM »

Vid was perfect. I always tell people if you think you look cool or good bowling you do not understand that you are bowling.

I would say your style is a little more rev dominant and sometimes more speed is not always easy to come by for people. I have tried conventional grip stuff before (house ball) just from playing while at the center and it will change some aspects of the way you throw the ball. I think that also includes ball speed.(slower, not faster) I will also say that no matter the grip as you have seen, from Sarge to Conventional if you want to grab at the ball to make it hook you can. That was one of the things that surprised me with the conventional grip while using a house ball. More hook and revs then I expected. Also more pressure on your hand to hold the ball. I find that finger tip had less stress on your hand was a much more comfortable feel.(for me)

Still it may be something you want to pursue at least with one of your used bowling balls no matter the strength. If it works, it will be one of many new balls to your arsenal. If it doesn't it is only one ball gone.(or you could plug it and drill it back) I would also recommend stopping by bowling chat.net with your link and posting over there this same topic. I think there is some people with the coaching knowledge willing to help.

Be good, or be good at it.

tommyboy74 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 19, 2011, 09:05:03 PM »

There was absolutely nothing wrong with that video at all. Actually, it was really good in quality and really gives us a good look at your game. You definitely seem to be rev dominant and come out of the ball pretty well.

In this case, it's tough for me to make a judgment call on going conventional. The issue I could see is that conventional can drop your speed a little bit. On oil, it could be to your advantage. On the dry (like the really torched lanes I threw some games on earlier), speed is something you would want to have.

Best advice is that if you have an older ball that you want to give conventional a try on, go for it. It shouldn't be that expensive to plug the fingerholes and then redrill. This is definitely the best time to work with a good pro shop as the finger pitches would change slightly and the thumb may need to be adjusted as well. Having a good fit is really going to be key with doing this. If it works out, then you have another ball you can go to in the arsenal with a different look. If not, it's no harm no foul and you can always get it redrilled. Good luck and let us know how things work out.

BTW, I found the video of Chris Warren throwing conventional with his comeback appearance on TV after a 12 year layoff. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxt6eLz4Azk

My arsenal

Heavy Oil: Storm Virtual Gravity Nano: 2000 AB
Medium-Heavy Oil: Storm Anarchy: 1500 polished
Medium Oil: Roto Grip Nomad Dagger: 1500 polished

Medium-Light Oil: Roto Grip Rising Star: 1500 polished

Edited by tommyboy74 on 6/19/2011 at 9:07 PM

Juggernaut · « **Reply #7 on:** June 19, 2011, 10:50:07 PM »

Here's a picture of the ball I was using in that video and yes, the pin IS that far out and above the fingers.http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll5/juggernaut_too/Bowling%20balls/?action=view¤t=CODE.jpg .

My pap is 4 1/8>, 1/2^. This drilling leaves the Virtual MB directly above the thumbhole.

« **Reply #8 on:** June 20, 2011, 04:01:42 AM »

Conventional grip? I say what have you got to lose?
If you are thinking about it enough then you should probably try it on a ball to see. Otherwise you will always have that question in the back of your mind.

The thing about bowling is "if you can repeat it, you can find a way to score."

We all can't bowl the same. We have different builds, different degrees of flexibility, etc. I'd like to bowl like some of my friends, but frankly, when it comes down to it I have to bowl like me.

Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff

www.brunswickbowling.com

The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 20, 2011, 05:00:21 AM »

With the pin that high up the ball should jump / be angular as soon as it sees friction. Probably not what your wanting. Also even though the pin is in the 6 to 6.5" range if you have higher revs and slower speed the ball tends to be extremely angular on the back ends and can be very uncontrollable. (have experienced this with other bowling balls)

Have you ever considered trying a much shorter pin to PAP? (Somewhere in the ball park of 1.5-2")

Be good, or be good at it.

Juggernaut · « **Reply #10 on:** June 20, 2011, 11:10:58 AM »

Yes, most of my other stuff is drilled pin down with about 3 inch pin outs. The CODE ball was an experimental thing I got from tekneek here. I had a long pin ball I liked, but it was a 15lb'er, and I've dropped down to 14's. Just wanted you to see what I was using in the video to help understand some of the things I'm having to do to get the ball down the lane. To be honest, I really can't figure out why my release causes the ball to read the lane like it does and hook so much. And yes, I've tried a shorter pin-to-pap. Here's apic of my last short pin-to-pap experiment, a MOJAVE:

And here's a pic of the last ball I drilled prior to my injury, a EUPHORIA:

I can use the Euphoria (above), but this is Seismics light oil ball, and I'm normally playing it where the rest of them are throwing GAMEBREAKERS, CELLS, VIRTUAL GRAVITYS, and the like, or at least I was prior to the injury.

I'm really looking forward to getting to bowl again, but there are two things. Number 1, I don't want to hurt myself and, number 2, I dont want to end up fighting my equipment to try and force it to do what I want it to.

kidlost2000 wrote on 6/20/2011 5:00 AM:
With the pin that high up the ball should jump / be angular as soon as it sees friction. Probably not what your wanting. Also even though the pin is in the 6 to 6.5" range if you have higher revs and slower speed the ball tends to be extremely angular on the back ends and can be very uncontrollable. (have experienced this with other bowling balls)

Have you ever considered trying a much shorter pin to PAP? (Somewhere in the ball park of 1.5-2")

Be good, or be good at it.

Dave_in_Rio_Rancho · « **Reply #11 on:** June 20, 2011, 05:45:00 PM »

Some years back I gave a conventional grip a try as I was also working back from an injury. I had a local ball driller plug and drill one of the old balls I had in my closet. I had a hard time getting out of the ball having gotten used to the finger tip grip and needed to carve a bunch of resin to get out clean - this could have been the end of the story.

However, a couple of years later cleaning out that same closet I found a Brunswick Purple Pro with conventional grip that I had traded for back in 1992 and used for awhile - it fit my hand perfectly so it had not been plugged. On examining the ball I was surprised at how different the layout was from the ball I had drilled more recently. Moral, if you do get a ball drilled conventional be sure the guy laying it out has actually laid out a conventional for a high average bowler.

While the newer ball had required a lot of carving the old ball with the proper span, and finger and thumb pitches for a conventional required none. I used this old ball for a month before any of my team mates realized it was laid out conventional as the ball had plenty of revs and hook with good carry. It's in the closet now but I am getting my left knee done in a couple of weeks, followed by the right, so the ball may see some use next year.

charlest · « **Reply #12 on:** June 20, 2011, 07:03:07 PM »

Juggs,

Not only did Glenn Allison use a conventional grip but another almost as famous did also, Dave Davis. SInce he was 6'2", he had a fairly decent sized hand, so it looked like he had a fingertip grip but it was conventional. I know since he used to live in the same section of NJ as I did.

Anyway, check out if YouTube has any videos of him. He mostly certainly did not throw a spinner like your 300/800 lefty or like Glenn Allison did. Of course, Dave being a lefty, a high percentage of the time he was able to roll the ball along or around the 1st arrow for great carry but he had a text book style and taught Parker Bohn a lot of bowling.

One other thought: I think when you go to a conventional grip, it seems to need a little more reverse pitch in the thumb than you normally use in/on a fingertip grip. I'm not sure if this holds true for everyone, but I think it does for most people, to aid in releasing the ball and reducing the spinner release.

Good luck with the healing process and don't rush too quickly, no matter how much withdrawal you are going through.

1970 Cougar Open Pt1

1973 BPAA US Open pt1

1973 BPAA US Open Pt 2

2000 PBA Brunswick Senior Slam

1995 ABC Sr. Masters

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

BowlingChat.net

Edited by charlest on 6/20/2011 at 8:28 PM

batbowler · « **Reply #13 on:** June 20, 2011, 07:57:45 PM »

Hey Juggs,

If you look at one of the balls the guy is using at 3:25 of the video has grips in it! He takes the ball and holds it up to the camera and you can see grips, it's a light blue ball!!! I remember back in the early 80's a lot of guys used conventional grip balls with the long inserts for conventional.

"Train a child up in the way they should go and when they are old they will "Bowl up a STORM", be MOTIVated to be "King OF THEM ALL" and not turn from it, besides bowling starts with a Big B!

Bruce Campbell
USBC Bronze Certified Coach
IBPSIA Certified Technician
Originator of the -35deg x 25 leverage drilling!
http://stormbowling.com/products/balls
http://www.rotogrip.com/products/balls/
http://visionarybowling.com/

http://www.motivbowling.com/products/2/

http://www.brunswickbowling.com/products
red>

Juggernaut · « **Reply #14 on:** June 20, 2011, 08:56:47 PM »

Thanks for all the encouragement and advice guys. I go back to the doctor next Monday and, if he thinks it is alright, I am going to start incorporating a bit of bowling into my rehab program.

All my official rehab visits are over for now, but I still have a bit to go before I'm ready to go back to my full job duties.

I've got a Kinetic pearl, Orbit extreme pearl, and a V2 solid that I can experiment with. I wouldn't mess with the V2, but it has already been plugged once, so it isn't going to hurt it by doing a little more work on it.

If worse comes to worse, I can always use my sons and wifes old 13lb scout and V2 pearl.

Author Topic: Thoughts on using the conventional grip? (Read 21214 times)

Juggernaut

Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

tommyboy74

Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

Juggernaut

Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

kidlost2000

Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

Juggernaut

Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

kidlost2000

Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

tommyboy74

Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

Juggernaut

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Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

kidlost2000

Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

Juggernaut

Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

Dave_in_Rio_Rancho

Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

charlest

Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

batbowler

Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?

Juggernaut

Re: Thoughts on using the conventional grip?