Author Topic: Why????? (Read 17104 times)

Doug Sterner · « **on:** February 10, 2010, 10:46:22 AM »

Now I am not professing to be a genius here or even a really smart guy but I have a serious question for both the pro shop guys out here and also the bowlers...

For the Pro Shop Guys....2 questions
1. When a "league hack" comes into your shop and says they want a Mutant Cell or Invasion to bowl on the house shot, why do you sell them the ball instead of getting them to get into a less aggressive ball that they will fare better with?

2. Why, even after selling them the Mutant Cell or Virtual Gravity or similar, do you drill the ball up max stacked leverage?

Don't we realize that when we do #1 and combine it with #2 that there is a 90% chance that the ball isn't going to work? Honestly...look at the heavy hooking balls that we see for sale on this site....90% are drilled stacked with the pin in the ballpark of 3-4" off the PAP...why?

Now for the customers...very simple...

Why don't you all trust your pro shop guy to put you in the ball you NEED instead of the ball you THINK YOU WANT? Then why do you tell him to "drill it to hook!" ?

I am simply baffled at the number of heavy hooking balls I see for sale here drilled for max hook and usually they are dulled up to look like 220 grit!

Why???

Help me out here guys!!!!
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug''s Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

JohnP · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2010, 10:16:18 AM »

I try to talk my customers into a ball that will fit their game and our lane conditions (unless they tell me they want it for other houses). If their hand is anywhere close to mine I even let them try some of my balls, which are weaker equipment. But I'm there to provide a service, if they insist on a max hook ball with a leverage drilling I give it to them, with the understanding that I don't think it's right for them. -- JohnP

chatnboy · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2010, 02:25:35 PM »

doug...most educated bowlers know better!!!then you have the folks that have disposable income that want that ball regardless because they think it will get them over the hump!!!!!i know a guy who i bowled with and he gets every new ball that comes out and i told him he might want to rethink his purchases.h's good but not sound on the fundementals and it saddens me to see him spend all his money on all these top notch balls when if he would work on his game save tons of money!!!!it doesnt help that the pro shop doesnt even try to talk him into something better.i know the guy who drills his stuff for him and he's like that....meaning he doesnt watch them bowl and just drills it up and charges them without trying to better their game!!!!sad!!!
--------------------
Go hard or go home!!!!!Bowl your best...ALWAYS!!!

Jay · « **Reply #18 on:** February 12, 2010, 02:16:00 AM »

Speaking as a customer, I think I can say that doesn't describe me. At least, not in terms of "I need the latest hook monster." Yes, I like to choose my own equipment and I will typically go with my gut, possibly after getting a couple of opinions from here and my pro shop. When it comes down to it, yes, I get "what I think I need." That's my goal and the only preference that comes into play for me(as opposed to the hook monster that the league hack prefers) is which brand I want because a number of companies will likely have something similar to what you're looking for.
--------------------
Justin

tenpinspro · « **Reply #19 on:** February 12, 2010, 02:28:45 AM »

Unfortunately Doug, (per numbers I vaguely remember) there are or were approximately 4500-5000 pro shops in the US (including the small center run shops). Out of these, 10-15 percent "max" knows what PAP means or uses it for layouts and drilling purposes. Along with these figures, about 90% of bowlers (my personal guesstimate) don''t understand or know what a core does or what it can do. Hence the example you''ve given occurs as often as it does.

This also follows along the path of "What would you like the ball to do?"
Ans: Go long, hook hard (on all conditions, including heavy oil)

or

"Drill it strong". When questioned, strong early, strong mid lane or strong backend?
Ans: No, just strong...my response?..."uncle".
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
"El" Presidente of the Legion

Edited on 2/12/2010 3:55 AM

milorafferty · « **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2010, 04:32:37 PM »

Being a somewhat new bowler, I think I can give you a good answer. I joined a league and bowled for the first time in January 2008.

As a new bowler, I was very impressed by the high average bowlers in our mixed handicap league. They all seemed to throw the big hooking ball, which of course, I could not do. At the time, I didn't realize these guys weren't the top bowlers in the area, just the ones who wanted to be the "Big Fish in the little pond". I didn't know the good bowlers were in the Classic Scratch leagues. Nor did I know that Scratch leagues even existed, and forget about the Sport Patterns.

As I learned a bit of control with my Ebonite Tornado, I started reading more about bowling and paying attention to the advertising in the various bowling magazines. The ads all talk about how much hook the ball of the month has. Hook rating is always a huge selling point on the balls getting the most "Buzz" as everyone talks about the newest, most advertised, biggest hook monster available. So what did I do? I went on some web sites and found myself the biggest hook monster I could get. Bowlingball.com has their perfect scale, so I got the highest number at the time. A Bruinswick Fury which was a 217 or something. Since I had no hand and threw the ball with muscle, it gave me my first 200 game. This caused several other bowlers to do pretty much the same thing, go buy a big hooking ball.

Why don't we listen to the proshop guys? Simple, the "better bowlers" in the leagues we bowl in are always coaching. We learn pretty fast that they don't know squat about bowling, except that they have figured out a way to make their way to work for them. And every "coach" has a different solution. Faster feet, slower feet, bend your knee, don't dip your shoulder, throw harder, don't throw as hard etc, etc. At some point, you just stop listening to anyone who tries to tell you what you need to do. Even if it is the proshop guy who does have the knowledge to help you.

My suggestion would be to have the current hot ball on hand and then something on the lower end of the scale. Don't tell them, SHOW them that you can hook the lower end ball. As my first actual coach said when she saw that I had the Fury and ask how it worked for me, "It's not the Arrow, it's the Archer"

I currently use a Lane Masters Buzz Attack, with a very high polished finish and a Columbia 300 Freeze. I also carry a Lane Masters Hornet which gets used quite often. Why no heavy oiler? I rarely bowl in the conditions for that as I have learned. The only time I use my Virtual Energy is for the PBA leagues.

Just my perspective on this, but since I have been one of the bowlers who only wanted the biggest hooking ball I could buy, this might help you proshop owners understand where we are coming from. We are ignorant, not stupid. Well, some of us anyway. :-)
--------------------
Nine in the pit with the Tenpin left standing. dooooh!!

Mike Austin · « **Reply #21 on:** February 12, 2010, 07:00:16 PM »

quote:
Being a somewhat new bowler, I think I can give you a good answer. I joined a league and bowled for the first time in January 2008.

As a new bowler, I was very impressed by the high average bowlers in our mixed handicap league. They all seemed to throw the big hooking ball, which of course, I could not do. At the time, I didn't realize these guys weren't the top bowlers in the area, just the ones who wanted to be the "Big Fish in the little pond". I didn't know the good bowlers were in the Classic Scratch leagues. Nor did I know that Scratch leagues even existed, and forget about the Sport Patterns.

As I learned a bit of control with my Ebonite Tornado, I started reading more about bowling and paying attention to the advertising in the various bowling magazines. The ads all talk about how much hook the ball of the month has. Hook rating is always a huge selling point on the balls getting the most "Buzz" as everyone talks about the newest, most advertised, biggest hook monster available. So what did I do? I went on some web sites and found myself the biggest hook monster I could get. Bowlingball.com has their perfect scale, so I got the highest number at the time. A Bruinswick Fury which was a 217 or something. Since I had no hand and threw the ball with muscle, it gave me my first 200 game. This caused several other bowlers to do pretty much the same thing, go buy a big hooking ball.

Why don't we listen to the proshop guys? Simple, the "better bowlers" in the leagues we bowl in are always coaching. We learn pretty fast that they don't know squat about bowling, except that they have figured out a way to make their way to work for them. And every "coach" has a different solution. Faster feet, slower feet, bend your knee, don't dip your shoulder, throw harder, don't throw as hard etc, etc. At some point, you just stop listening to anyone who tries to tell you what you need to do. Even if it is the proshop guy who does have the knowledge to help you.

My suggestion would be to have the current hot ball on hand and then something on the lower end of the scale. Don't tell them, SHOW them that you can hook the lower end ball. As my first actual coach said when she saw that I had the Fury and ask how it worked for me, "It's not the Arrow, it's the Archer"

I currently use a Lane Masters Buzz Attack, with a very high polished finish and a Columbia 300 Freeze. I also carry a Lane Masters Hornet which gets used quite often. Why no heavy oiler? I rarely bowl in the conditions for that as I have learned. The only time I use my Virtual Energy is for the PBA leagues.

Just my perspective on this, but since I have been one of the bowlers who only wanted the biggest hooking ball I could buy, this might help you proshop owners understand where we are coming from. We are ignorant, not stupid. Well, some of us anyway. :-)
--------------------
Nine in the pit with the Tenpin left standing. dooooh!!

Milo, you are a very quick learner and obviously an intelligent person. Unfortunately, there are not many like you, and your comments hit a couple nails right on the head.

--------------------
Check out my blog:

www.strikes4days.blogspot.com

FBM357 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 12, 2010, 08:59:52 PM »

quote:
Being a somewhat new bowler, I think I can give you a good answer. I joined a league and bowled for the first time in January 2008.

As a new bowler, I was very impressed by the high average bowlers in our mixed handicap league. They all seemed to throw the big hooking ball, which of course, I could not do. At the time, I didn't realize these guys weren't the top bowlers in the area, just the ones who wanted to be the "Big Fish in the little pond". I didn't know the good bowlers were in the Classic Scratch leagues. Nor did I know that Scratch leagues even existed, and forget about the Sport Patterns.

As I learned a bit of control with my Ebonite Tornado, I started reading more about bowling and paying attention to the advertising in the various bowling magazines. The ads all talk about how much hook the ball of the month has. Hook rating is always a huge selling point on the balls getting the most "Buzz" as everyone talks about the newest, most advertised, biggest hook monster available. So what did I do? I went on some web sites and found myself the biggest hook monster I could get. Bowlingball.com has their perfect scale, so I got the highest number at the time. A Bruinswick Fury which was a 217 or something. Since I had no hand and threw the ball with muscle, it gave me my first 200 game. This caused several other bowlers to do pretty much the same thing, go buy a big hooking ball.

Why don't we listen to the proshop guys? Simple, the "better bowlers" in the leagues we bowl in are always coaching. We learn pretty fast that they don't know squat about bowling, except that they have figured out a way to make their way to work for them. And every "coach" has a different solution. Faster feet, slower feet, bend your knee, don't dip your shoulder, throw harder, don't throw as hard etc, etc. At some point, you just stop listening to anyone who tries to tell you what you need to do. Even if it is the proshop guy who does have the knowledge to help you.

My suggestion would be to have the current hot ball on hand and then something on the lower end of the scale. Don't tell them, SHOW them that you can hook the lower end ball. As my first actual coach said when she saw that I had the Fury and ask how it worked for me, "It's not the Arrow, it's the Archer"

I currently use a Lane Masters Buzz Attack, with a very high polished finish and a Columbia 300 Freeze. I also carry a Lane Masters Hornet which gets used quite often. Why no heavy oiler? I rarely bowl in the conditions for that as I have learned. The only time I use my Virtual Energy is for the PBA leagues.

Just my perspective on this, but since I have been one of the bowlers who only wanted the biggest hooking ball I could buy, this might help you proshop owners understand where we are coming from. We are ignorant, not stupid. Well, some of us anyway. :-)
--------------------
Nine in the pit with the Tenpin left standing. dooooh!!

Very well stated!!!!

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #23 on:** February 12, 2010, 10:36:33 PM »

With all of the good equipment out there and the wealth of information out on this here Internet thing I cannot see why people are so misinformed and make such choices.

There is an older left hander in our house that has been using a Storm agent and a MoRich N'Tense LevRG. The balls both hook up pretty hard and he spends a lot of time on the nose. He shows up this week with a new ball....Storm Invasion. Why??? I asked...he said that the pro shop where he goes (his son in law works there) just got them in and "it's one of the best balls out there right now." So he got one....

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

jodyk24 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 12, 2010, 10:43:16 PM »

This is a very good topic for discussion that is for sure. I have seen this over and over this year and in years past. Bowlers that ask for your opinion about a ball that would work for them and their game. They will always ask what do you use? I always tell them that there is a lot of good equipment out there. What do you want a ball to do? One man in particular is real tall and his ball hits the lane past the arrows and the ball is just killed and rolls out after that. He filled in the blanks on the Matchmaker that Storm provides and he did not like what ball the Matchmaker suggested for his game. He came to league about a week later to bowl with a Virtual Gravity. He told me that the pro shop guy was on the tour and seemed to know what he was talking about, and suggested the Virtual. He picked off three or four pins off the rack most of the night and that still has not changed. I will never know if he would have bowled better if he had chose a ball that I suggested. I sure did not suggest high end equipment for him. My conclusion is that most bowlers belive that all it takes is a new bowling ball in their hands and they are going to conquer the bowling world. It is going to improve their fundamentals and skills along with automatic strikes. It has got to be the ball because I just watched some guy on video throw nothing but strikes with that new ball that just just came out.

jodyk24

Edited on 2/12/2010 11:52 PM

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #25 on:** February 18, 2010, 06:56:15 PM »

Hmmmm....

I''m left handed and just bowl a bit anymore.

But down on the oilier lanes I see in Florida I''ve been bowling nicely throwing some real strong stuff. Now of course my head oil stays longer than for righties in league but getting in deep on a league crown with a nice strong No Mercy Beatn has been fun lately.

I remember once talking to Chad Murphy of Columbia a while back in describing a shot and ball to play on a strong hooking top hat he told me the super strong reaction Roll should make it easy for me AS long as I got my feet and the ball INSIDE the oil ! He was right!

I don''t know why strong DOESN''t work! Maybe it''s the right side! Maybe it''s the area of the country you guys are in???

Regards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Edited on 2/18/2010 8:16 PM

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #26 on:** February 18, 2010, 10:29:04 PM »

In fact the more I think about it the more I am seeing people having tremendous success playing inside with Full Swing's, Virtual Gravities, and Breaks'.

This video looks a lot like just what I am seeing. Lots of area on a crown with these powerhouse balls!

Note bowler #3 down on this page of Full Swing videos!

Area! and Carry!

Regards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

TheFreeAgent · « **Reply #27 on:** February 19, 2010, 07:17:01 AM »

A big misconception we get from house hacks along with new bowlers is they think bowling balls are like cars, the more you spend the better the quality, yet thats not true. The first thing they ask when we recomend a ball is why this (medium ball) and not that (high end ball). So we tell every body the same thing, that the high end balls are more of "condition" balls for heavier oil, and that if you drill a medium ball that you will see a better reaction at this house then you would with a high end ball becuase it would burn up and hit like a wet turd. Unless they are looking for a ball for heavy oil they most generaly go with out opinion and get a medium ball and end up loving it.
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REFS: MrEddie(BBE), notsohotshot(BR), akanayte(UTA)

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #28 on:** February 19, 2010, 10:08:23 PM »

A big misconception I see here is that people confuse the following terms:

heavy oil ball and big hooking ball

Many assume that since the ball will be effective in heavy oil that will mean that it will jusut hook the entire lane on medium oil.

We all know that this is not always the case...many times it will work as such but not always.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

LotsaBalls · « **Reply #29 on:** February 19, 2010, 10:35:53 PM »

This is a BIG problem in my area, we have medium oil at best in every house here and there are 6 of the newest oilers on every rack. These are the same people that are complaining about the lack of oil.

coco3085 · « **Reply #30 on:** February 22, 2010, 08:44:50 PM »

For me, and me only, I buy alot of balls and like to tinker with them. i like to see what reactions work and what doesn't for me. I think that as I have bought balls, I have bought some heavy pearls (900g break point pearl, one pearl, reign, ect) and I used to throw the track, long hook style. I decided that I wanted to throw more of a belly, and wow, carry percentage started to get better. To throw that belly, I bought some heavier balls (mutant, magic action, rouge). I didn't know about things like dipping my shoulder, comming around the ball, more or less hand. I've been bowling for 4 years. I used to think that the ball made the difference, and it did. till I learned how to throw. My driller humors me in my purchases but also has worked with me on how to throw the ball also. I think that alot of people ask the wrong people for advice. My driller is excellent, and that is who I go to, not the guys throwing virtual gravities up the 7 board. I think that there should be a hand out when you learn to bowl that says, "don't talk to the following people, they don't know ****" I read alot of stuff on this particular thread that is good, the ball can help, but people need to get in with the pro shot guy and find out who can help them really learn to throw a ball. Then you will really know what your ball can do, and if you need to replace one.

Oh yeah, and lanes count for alot. learn what you bowl on, and how that effects your purchase
--------------------
201 league average 2 leagues
break point pearl
Mutant cell
Magic action
Cherry vibe
14lb agent-first ball I ever owned
skull and cross bones
rogue cell- not my thing

Author Topic: Why????? (Read 17104 times)

Doug Sterner

Why?????

JohnP

Re: Why?????

chatnboy

Re: Why?????

Jay

Re: Why?????

tenpinspro

Re: Why?????

milorafferty

Re: Why?????

Mike Austin

Re: Why?????

FBM357

Re: Why?????

Doug Sterner

Re: Why?????

jodyk24

Re: Why?????

LuckyLefty

Re: Why?????

LuckyLefty

Re: Why?????

TheFreeAgent

Re: Why?????

Doug Sterner

Re: Why?????

LotsaBalls

Re: Why?????

coco3085

Re: Why?????