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Author Topic: Is it the drilling layout?  (Read 4603 times)

LadyW

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Is it the drilling layout?
« on: November 17, 2003, 07:25:40 AM »
I recently purchased a 13 lb. Vendetta Black Solid.  It was drilled with Dynothane's #2 layout - pin above the ring.  No weight hole was needed.  As far as I know, I've never had this layout before.

I'm bowling on a fresh medium oil shot with the oil pattern a little longer then usual.  I also bowl on second shift with some carrydown.

I can't seem to get this ball to do anything.  It's not getting  into a good roll.  It's sliding and skidding all over the place.  The ball is hitting like a marshmallow and has no finish.  I've tried all different lines.

I throw a simple stroker style with slower ball speed and revs.  I have decent lift and follow through.  See my profile.

Could my problem be the drilling layout?  If so, what layout would you recommend for medium oil that can also handle some carrydown?

I've used this ball for 5 weeks now without any progress.  

Your comments and recommendations would be appreciated.
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LadyWannabe

Edited on 11/17/2003 11:27 PM

Edited on 11/17/2003 11:42 PM

 

LuckyLefty

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2003, 04:45:59 AM »
Lady,

I have a terrible time with oil, and pins ABOVE the ring!

I always find the key to most of my bowling is having a ball that revs in the heads for me!  Particularly on oil!!

Pins above the ring tend to resist rolling and the old term is LOPE down the lane.

To get this ball to rev on the condition you are on WITHOUT changing the drilling you are going to have to supply friction.  Sand to 600 first(or green scotch brite).  Failing that sand to 320(or burgundy scotch brite).
This should get the ball grabbing and rolling earlier!

If all else fails a redrill with the pin down below the pap to finger line and maybe with the cg out a little will get the weightblock in a position where it wants to REV UP baby!

REgards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Strider

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2003, 06:58:43 AM »
If you have drilling #2, the CG should be right of the pin.  You might have the proshop remeasure the side weight.  Too much side weight will make a ball lope.  A weight hole (past the PAP by around 2") will start the ball earlier by adding flare.  Also, as LL suggested, sand the ball to 600 grit.  Even the compound used to make a matte finish will make the ball squirty in oil.
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LadyW

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2003, 08:39:45 PM »
Strider -

I have very limited technical knowledge, so please clarify.

Are you saying to add a weight hole only if it has too much side weight or even if  not?

If New Guy's around, I'd appreciate his input.
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LadyWannabe

Strider

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2003, 06:50:09 AM »
I'd weight it to make sure it's legal.  It must have less than 1 oz side weight (and less than 3 oz top weight).  Usually balls with the CG positioned near your axis (far from your grip center) need a weighthole unless the ball had low top weight before drilling.  First and easiest adjustment is to sand the cover down to 600 to remove the matte finish.  You can sand down further or repolish as you need.  If you still don't get the reaction you want and you have a lot of side weight (~0.75 oz), consider the weighthole.
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Phillip Marlowe

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2003, 10:37:41 AM »
If I understand you, your ball is drilled absolutely incorrectly for your style.  If they followed the Dynothane 2 basic layout, the pin could be above your ring if your track is relatively low.  This layout is an early roll, mid flare layout.  That is, with slow speed, it will try to catch in oil too soon, spin or flounder and roll out.  For you, the ball should not be drilled to roll early -- you will lose too much and you will find your equipment (unless it is pearl) hitting weak.

This is a relatively even ball in nature, you will need either to polish it and play much straighter, or redrill it, setting the pin to the right about a half to three quarters inches and moving the CG either directly under it or slightly to the left.  Frankly, I wouldn't have put this ball in your hands.  I probably would have suggested you try the Vendetta or Thing and drill em stacked about 4x4 or label leverage.

Drillers often give the drill you have on this ball to lower speed, lower rev bowlers, thinking it helps them get hook.  In my experience and opinion, now borne out in experiments with a number of lower rev (including my wife and teammates) it doesn't.  With more even equipment and earlier rolling coverstocks, unless the oil is very heavy, it just burns up energy. My wife and several friends and teammates go through the same thing.  We drill the balls for more length and high flare -- boom, they do better.  When they hit real oil, we have balls drilled maximum stacked with strong coverstocks.  Ya know what, for them, it works.
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LadyW

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2003, 12:32:19 PM »
The ball weighed 13-4oz. with 1.82 top and 2.5-3 pin.

I was initially interested in the original Vendetta as one of the women on my league has one and I was impressed with the hit.  I bypassed the Thing because I thought it would hook too much.

I called Dynothane for some info on the original Vendetta and spoke to Phil C.
He suggested I go with the Black Solid because the cover could be easily tweaked so I took his advice.  The pro shop chose the drilling.

I was using a 14 lb Fuel before this but it was too heavy and hooked too much. I had trouble staying off the head pin and was forced to play a swing shot most of the time.  It was layed out as follows

Pin above ring
CG midway between fingers and thumb approx. 1" to right of pin
MB slightly below thumb stacked under Cg
       
The track on the Fuel is about 1" from the thumb and 2" from the fingers.
On the VBlack I seem to be tracking practically on top of the thumb hole.  It doesn't appear to be rolling or flaring.

I'm sorry for the long post but I'm trying to give you as much information as I'm capable of.

I can't and do not wish to throw a straight ball.  I throw a small hook and I need some area to play effectively.   So I need to find a way to work with this ball or I'll be forced to give it up.  I'm quite competitive in nature and throwing only average games or slightly higher on a continuous basis doesn't cut it for me.

Thank you all in advance for your patience and input.






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LadyWannabe

LadyW

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2003, 09:29:21 AM »
I had the pro shop take the surface down to 600 as suggested.  I found out that the side weight was only 1/2 ounce and didn't need a weight hole.  

Bowled in league last night on second shift shot.
The ball is now rolling and flaring more than before.  I'm getting to the pocket but the ball just doesn't drive well and hits weak.

I'm really getting frustrated as I keep trying to adjust the shot to get a good hit and it just doesn't seem to happen.

What do you suggest I do know?

I'm disappointed that I've gotten so few responses so far.

I'm in desperate need of help.

Where are all the bowling gurus when you need them???
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LadyWannabe

charlest

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2003, 09:59:32 AM »
I'm wondering if you aren't just encountering more oil than you expected and this ball can handle. I am not sure, as like everyone else, I can't see you bowl. The Fuel is at least 2 notches or degrees stronger in oil handling capability than the Vendetta Black, which is a very medium ball in average rev hands.

From your follow-up post here, where you describe what happens when the ball was sanded, sort of confirms what I was thinking. Note that a sanded ball will flare more solely because it starts to grab the lane earlier.

I am inclined to believe you need a stronger ball, maybe an Element, which while stronger (can handle more oil) than the Vendetta, is still a notch, more or less below the Fuel (a strong cored particle solid).

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LadyW

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2003, 12:21:05 PM »
One of the women on my league has the original Vendetta which was sanded down and her ball smacks the pocket under these conditions.  Her ball appears to take a straighter path and then a nice turn into the pocket playing between 2nd & 3rd arrow.  My ball is arcing and seems to lack energy on the backend.  She has no more on the ball than I do.

I'm getting the feeling that this was the wrong ball choice for me and that may be so.  I was told that this ball was similar to the Vortex II sanded but had more backend.  I had the V2 in the past and did quite well with it {bowled my highest game & series).

Since I Just bought this ball and don't want to invest in another one, I'd like to try and make it work for me.

I'm trying to determine if the drilling layout is contributing to my lack of success as I've never had this layout before.

Can the path of the ball be changed so that it's less arcing and more effective on the back end.  

If you had a player with lower speed and revs but stood under the ball with decent lift and follow through, how would you drill this ball and why?
I throw a small hook (see my profile).

I'm frustrated, as this is the first ball I've ever had that I couldn't work with.




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LadyWannabe

charlest

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2003, 01:26:53 PM »
quote:
Lady Wannabe:

I'm getting the feeling that this was the wrong ball choice for me and that may be so.  I was told that this ball was similar to the Vortex II sanded but had more backend.  I had the V2 in the past and did quite well with it {bowled my highest game & series).


Similar, yes, vaguely, roughly equivalent, BUT the V2 Sanded is a notch stronger, more equivalent to the Element. Both are more for medium-heavy oil patterns, while the Vendetta Black is for mediums.

quote:
Since I Just bought this ball and don't want to invest in another one, I'd like to try and make it work for me. I'm trying to determine if the drilling layout is contributing to my lack of success as I've never had this layout before. Can the path of the ball be changed so that it's less arcing and more effective on the back end.  

If you had a player with lower speed and revs but stood under the ball with decent lift and follow through, how would you drill this ball and why?
I throw a small hook (see my profile).

I'm frustrated, as this is the first ball I've ever had that I couldn't work with.
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LadyWannabe


I think you have to drillit stronger, and, in general that means in under the ring finger. Stacked leverage, that is, both pin and CG 3 3/8" (roughly 3.5") from the PA (axis point) is the strongest drilling. Placing the pin at 4" and CG at 4" will make it more flipy and less arc-y, but this is not really a flippy ball. You objective is to make it usable for you and that, I Believe, means more overall hook. I wouldn't put the pin any further than 4" from the PAP, so as not to make it too weak. Your driller can fool around with the CG to make it roll earlier or later for you. I'd also susect that if yo ure-drill it to be stronger, you may want to add a littl ebit of polish to help it get down the lane. You may also just want to sand it finer than the 600 grit you have it now. Maybe 800 or so to add some length. The dull or matte finish ball will still rev up earlier than the stock finish.

good luck, whatever you do.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Phillip Marlowe

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2003, 03:55:29 PM »
After reading Charlest's post, the reaction you got and thinking through it again (and after throwing my black this weekend) I have to believe that this ball needs polish, a flippier drill and a drill that DOESN'T start the roll as early as the one you have now.  Go back to my original post, you need max. flare and length with this ball give your revs.  You've now tried the changing surface route, which is the fastest way to get a read on the problem.  The ball probably isn't storing energy to the back...so it needs to be redrilled along the lines Charlest suggests (4x4) or label leverage and polished.  If that doesn't work, well, it is just the wrong ball for you.  I stay with my view, that 9 times out of 10, low speed, lower rev bowlers need balls that get down the lane (pearls basically) and then flare.  My guess is that this ball is simply too even for you.
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"Some men get the world.  Others get ex-hookers and a trip to Arizona."

charlest

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2003, 11:03:57 PM »
With people who are willing (or financially able) to try other balls, it is easier to tell the right course of action. Before buying another ball, try the polish route that Mr. Marlowe suggests. It is simple and easy, easier than buying another ball. Just don't add too much shine or polish!
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

LadyW

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2003, 12:21:47 AM »
Tried the ball again in league tonight.  Had to stand 6 boards right of center and throw between 1st and 2nd arrow to get any decent reaction.  Got ten pinned to death though.  Managed to pull out one half way decent 195 game.  Still not happy with it as I feel I have no versatility.

I plan on having the ball redrilled next week and give it one more try before retiring it.  I'm a little confused though.  

Charlest suggests either stacked leverage or 4 X 4.

Phillip Marlowe says he agrees with you using either 4 X4 or label leverage.  Isn't that different than stacked leverage?

Remember, I'm not technical, so please excuse my ignorance in this area.

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I purchased this ball because it was recommended for me.  Money is not at issue here.  I can't see giving up on this ball until I've given it another chance.  What do I have to lose?  The pro shop will work with me on the redrill.

The last three balls I've had were Vortex II, Matrix Dominator and Fuel.  None of them were pearl.  I did quite well with all of them and played each one differently.  I threw quite a few 230-250 games with each of them.

I feel the Vendetta deserves a chance.






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LadyWannabe

Edited on 11/25/2003 2:19 AM

Mike Austin

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Re: Is it the drilling layout?
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2003, 01:03:46 AM »
Lady,

After reading this thread, it looked to me that you had solved your problem by moving right on the lane.  If you haven't plugged the ball yet, I think I would try putting some shine back on the ball, and try this outside line.  I think Storm #2, then Storm #3 would work nicely, depends on what products your shop uses.

Seems like with your soft ball speed, and the dull cover, the ball was burning up too fast, and going too long with the shiny surface.  You might could move farther left on the lane to get more oil, with the dullish surface, but you may have trouble getting it to turn the corner from here.  I like the outside line approach better.

If you have already, or are dead set on plugging the ball, then go with the pin 3-4 inches from your axis point (as previously suggested) and the cg below or to the left of the pin.  This is a fairly strong pin position, and mass bias position, making the ball rev up quicker.  Use the ball shiny to get it down the lane, and probably stay with more outside line.

For my customers, the Vendetta Black is a medium ball.  It goes very long when shiny, and is more of a benchmark ball.  A little weaker than a V2, about like a Storm Tour Power.  I would think this ball would work very well for your second shift.

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Mike Austin
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