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Author Topic: Ebonite Poured Covers  (Read 7000 times)

Strider

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Ebonite Poured Covers
« on: August 09, 2008, 03:26:51 AM »
I posted this under Hammer because there is a recent relevant post.  This is a personal theory of mine, based on only what I observe, not on any known fact.

I believe that Ebonite's covers are prone to a little too much variation from ball to ball.  A touch too much or too little plasticizer, maybe they cure a little too fast or too slow, I don't know.  For every Black Widow (just using a popular ball as an example) that hooked off the lane or kept hooking/hitting strong for many games, I've seen just as many that were much milder or didn't act near the same after X amount of games.  You just don't see this constant complaint from other manufacturers.

Remember when Brunswick was having cover issues?  Classic Zones and Smokin' Infernos (was there a third one?) were given new pin colors and released as different balls (blems?) because the covers cured too fast and the balls didn't hook near as intended.  I believe Ebonite has a similar problem to a lesser degree.  There was a huge difference between a red pin and a green pin Classic Zone, but I've seen close to the same difference on some Ebonite/Hammer balls.  I haven't seen too many Columbia or Track balls, but I haven't seen the same "problem", at least yet.

I have a Black Widow Bite that I'll use as an example.  The ball was marketed as a slightly bigger version of the original Black Widow.  Mine doesn't handle near the oil or have near the back end as most of the BW's I saw.  I like the ball a lot on shorter PBA type patterns, but the ball didn't fit in my arsenal where I intended.  My old Storm Tour Power runs circles around it on heavier patterns.  Another guy in my league has a Bite that flares a ton and hooks a lot more than mine.  He's got a little more hand than me and drilled his a little stronger, but the difference is night and day.

I'm not trying to start a whine fest, but I'd like to hear other's opinions.  I'd also love to hear from people in the industry to see if I'm on the right track.
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cbae

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2008, 12:39:46 PM »
I assume you're referring to the Bite within your photos.  The layout is not close to the layout of your Tour Power.  If you would of drilled the Bite with the same layout you'll see the Bite is stonger then now.  
If you don't have a weight hole try drilling a weight hole 1 1/2" - 2" down from your PAP and you should see stronger performance.  
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charlest

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2008, 12:59:13 PM »
quote:
I assume you're referring to the Bite within your photos.  The layout is not close to the layout of your Tour Power.  If you would of drilled the Bite with the same layout you'll see the Bite is stonger then now.  
If you don't have a weight hole try drilling a weight hole 1 1/2" - 2" down from your PAP and you should see stronger performance.  


My opinion:
Probably not true.

The Tour Power starts off with a much weaker and older coverstock and has a very low flare potential. By design, the Tour Power is at a minimum 2 degrees weaker than the Black Widow, no less the BW Bite. If Strider can use his Tour Power on PBA patterns, his BW Bite should be strong enough to be used on such heavy oil patterns as is rarely found. It ALMOST  BE too strong for even the Shark pattern. PLUS both are at the same sanding level (1000 grit = 2000 grit Abralon which uses the FEPA grading system). On top of all that, Strider does not exactly have a fluffer release.
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cbae

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2008, 01:17:15 PM »
By the photos no way can the Bite be the same surface as his Tour Power.  The Bite comes sanded OOB and polishing it does change the performance more then one thinks.  Besides the Bite should have a weight hole which I can't see in the photo
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Strider

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2008, 01:22:44 PM »
Of course I wasn't talking about the drill patterns between the Tour Power and the Bite.  But, as Charlest pointed out, the Bite's cover is much stronger and the core is also much stronger (Bite's differential is 0.06, TP's is 0.032 - look at the manufacturer's sites, not bowlingballreviews).  Even drilled weaker, the Bite should flare more and handle more oil then the Tour Power.  That isn't my point, that was just one example.  If you want a better example, the Bite barely flares more then the similarly drilled Tsunami (differential = 0.027).  The Tsunami has the pin over the middle finger, the Bite below the middle finger.  Both have the CG a little right of grip center.

The weight hole you describe should decrease flare in anything.  Why would you suggest something you aren't sure of?  I'm on my second weight hole now (no photo).  The first was 2" past my PAP along the grip center (Brunswick's "flare increasing position).  That did absolutely nothing for the ball.  Since then, I plugged that and put one on the MB (MoRich's gradient line balance hole system).  The PSA was confirmed by a determinator  The ball is a little stronger now, but didn't make a giant difference.  I bowl on THS and if you look on the miscellaneous forum, you'll see my summer PBA Experience log.  I also bowl a summer sweeper once a week that consists of three different sport patterns across six lanes.  I'm not just looking at the ball on a THS which makes every thing look the same.  Heck, I've subbed twice on a THS over the summer, and the Bite didn't fare well once regular carry down set in.

If you want to continue about the Bite specifically, please PM me or start a new thread.  I'm more curious about my theory of Ebonite's possible variability of cover stocks.
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Strider

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2008, 01:30:02 PM »
One last thing since you already replied while I was typing.  The Bite in the picture might be at the factory 4000 grit (no polish), I don't remember.  High abralon grits look very shiny, especially in photographs.  I've had the Bite at 1000 and the Tour Power at 2000.  My comparison still stands.  It's not like I'm going to change the photos in my profile every week.  That's just the way they were when I took the pictures.  I like the Tour Power at 1000 and the Bite at 2000.  The Bite has never been polished, so there's no way I clogged any pores.  I may not have Charlest's experience and perseverance, but I've had my own spinner for years and know what I'm doing.  At 1000, the Bite rolled way too early, but really didn't handle much more oil, and completely lost any recovery it had at the break point.
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cbae

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2008, 01:55:36 PM »
Amount of flare has everything to do with the position of the core.  If the core is in a weak position it will not flare much.  Just because a core is stronger doesn't mean it'll flare the same amount in a weaker position.
To take advantage of the stronger core, you have to place the core in a stronger position.
Should of kept the pin in the same weaker position and placed the MB in a stronger position, about 2" right of your thumb.  Then drill a weight hole 45 degree from the center of your grip down.  This will give you tighter flare rings and help retain the ball motion.  Not all weight holes closer to center of grip flare reducing holes
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charlest

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2008, 02:07:12 PM »
quote:
Amount of flare has everything to do with the position of the core.  If the core is in a weak position it will not flare much. ...


The correct statement is it will not flare as much. A 5" pin to PAP with an RG differential of .05" will still flare a lot, probably around 5", for someone with Strider's rev rate.

THE BW core is a LOT stronger than the TP's, by virtue of both flare potential AND Mass Bias strength. The BWB's .05" differential will flare at least as much, if not more than the TP's .03", even with that difference in pin position.
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Strider

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2008, 02:11:57 PM »
Last time, if you want to talk about the Bite specifically, send me a PM or start a new thread.

I'm not a drilling expert, but I know what works for my release.  If I drill a big flaring ball too strong, it burns up and pukes unless I hit the perfect, once a year lane condition.  I'm not drilling anything to be super condition specific.  I've put a similar drill on two other balls recently, and really like the hook motion.  Maybe I could have put the MB a little stronger, but went with the driller's suggestion.  It's not like moving the MB another inch right would make the ball hook 8 more boards.  First you want to talk about a weight hole below the PAP, now you mention holes closer to the grip center which is it?  Also my problem was that the flare rings were too close together.  Around the bow ties, I had very little separation, so carry down was a big problem for the ball.  That's why I tried Brunswick's flare increasing weight hole, then MoRich's gradient line balance hole.  My driller called Mo himself to confirm the location.  Like I stressed earlier, I like the ball, it's just not what I expected, especially after seeing other BW's and Bite's in action, hence the point of this post.
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cbae

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2008, 02:31:52 PM »
4 3/8" from PAP is the strongest position and most flare from any core no matter what the rev rate is.  All that matters is the location of the PIN and MB.  I'm done
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302efi

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2008, 02:57:17 PM »
quote:
4 3/8" from PAP is the strongest position and most flare from any core no matter what the rev rate is.


You = FAIL

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LuckyLefty

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2008, 03:10:42 PM »
I don't know about the cover difference at Ebonite!

But I do believe that a pin under middle finger is a pretty weak drilling....nice for low volumes of oil.

I do not think of the Bite as a really heavy oil ball....but putting a low volume react gently drilling on even a strong core ball leads to a smooth and moderate reaction.

This drilling was often recommended by Brunswick for a dry wet/dry condition and I have found it to  be an excellant recommendation.

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS I bet the fella above meant 3 3/8 for maximum flare and possibly missed a digit.
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DanR

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2008, 03:21:59 PM »
quote:
Quote
4 3/8" from PAP is the strongest position and most flare from any core no matter what the rev rate is.


You = FAIL

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charlest

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2008, 03:45:26 PM »
quote:
...
REgards,

Luckylefty
PS I bet the fella above meant 3 3/8 for maximum flare and possibly missed a digit.
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Maybe but he says "If the core is in a weak position, it will not flare much", as if you get flare with a leverage pin position and almost no flare outside of it. That is just not true. True, it gets less flare, but it depends on your rev rate.

A 5" pin to PAP with Strider's rev rate, 325 rpms, can still get 4-5" of flare. That's a lot and a lot of hook.
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Ebonite Poured Covers
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2008, 04:07:46 PM »
That is a lot of flare for a pin position under middle finger.  I tend to be a rev dominant person(soft speed)  and I do not get 5 inches of flare form that drilling and though my PAP is farther than Striders, I would not drill a ball similar to that even with a strong core and expect much oil handling ability.
I would also expect late flare which tends to make me square up more...

I would expect a low volume condition killer.

My point I would like to see a 4 inch pin to pap drilled bite and see how much oil handling ability it would have...

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS I have a Shock(a strong ball if drilled strong) drilled very similar to above. (pin under bridge and a slight cg kickout) Drilling per Billy Ray on this site.  It is a real nice ball for me on dryer wet dry....  An overreaction killer.  When I take it to my local wet top hat....it has less than my other stronger drilled...weaker balls.
PPS I believe balls drilled near 5 1/2 capture about 1/3 of the flare potential of the ball.
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