Author Topic: No Mercy & HART core (Read 5170 times)

RyanRPS · « **on:** January 09, 2007, 10:28:27 PM »

Just drilled a NM for a customer last night, and I really want someone (perhaps from Hammer if they read these) to explain exactly how this thing works... get as technical as you like because I understand fully the dynamic effects of the core in a bowling ball.. but cant understand how this works...

My initial thought was that the HART marking denotes a spot a few inches left of the MB, and by placing it in your track puts the MB in the strong position... but that wouldnt work if you were left handed, because the MB would be in the same place relitive to the HART marking, and therefore after drilling would be around your NAP.

Simply saying "this is a different type of core" doesnt make sense... if it is an asymmitric core, it has a mass bias... To take affect at any point in the balls roll, it needs to come near/on the (migrating) leverage line... this is how regular mass bias positions are worked out for early roll etc, so that the Leverage line encounters the MB at the desired time...

The only thing I can think of, which i cant see being true, is that because the track on the ball seems to be lowered for most people throwing these (as was with the guy I drilled one for) everything is shifted across/down/around the ball a couple inches, making the new "strong" position on the left of the thumbhole as apposed to the right (for most people) or at 90ish degrees as apposed to the usual 70..

Please explain... have you altered physics?!?! lol

Ryan

Strapper_Squared · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2007, 06:42:40 AM »

My understanding is that the mass bias is located in a different plane through the core than typical assymetricals. So if for instance, a typical assymetrical core has a mass bias through the z-axis, the no mercy would have the mass bias through the y-axis. Anyway, that's what I had gathered from reading the tech information... I'll let the experts give a better explaination though.

S^2
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RyanRPS · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2007, 06:56:55 AM »

I can understand if it is in a different plane, but physics is physics... for the greatest effect the MB needs to be on the leverage line... I dont follow how the MB can be in the correct position for both right handers and left handers using this marking... if it can, I just want to hear the physics behind it...

Te ball must have a mass bias.... where is it??

Oh, something else, the layout diagram says to not put the CG more than an inch from the centre of grip... this kinda depends on the span

but i'm not too worried about that lol

Ryan

Noy · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2007, 08:44:50 AM »

quote:
I can understand if it is in a different plane, but physics is physics... for the greatest effect the MB needs to be on the leverage line... I dont follow how the MB can be in the correct position for both right handers and left handers using this marking... if it can, I just want to hear the physics behind it...

Te ball must have a mass bias.... where is it??

Oh, something else, the layout diagram says to not put the CG more than an inch from the centre of grip... this kinda depends on the span but i'm not too worried about that lol

Ryan

Thats the exact reason why I havent bought myself one (Lefty). Though other lefties on here don't seem to have a problem with it, I myself just don't trust it.
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JMORRIS · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2007, 09:56:30 AM »

Does anyone have any pics of a ball with the #1 drilling for a lefty?

shelley · « **Reply #5 on:** January 10, 2007, 10:13:16 AM »

The "MB" is really a preferred spin axis. That axis goes all the way through the ball to the other side. When you drill it for a lefty, you're using the other end of that axis. The HART marking is 90* from both.

You could do that with a normal asymmetric ball but the CG would be on the other side of the ball. I would venture to say that when a company marks the MB on an asymmetric ball, they spin it and put the mark on whatever side of the ball the CG is on.

The trick to the No Mercy and the HART core is that Hammer's figured out how to reliably put the CG on a line 90* from the PSA. Once they did that, they mark the spot 90* from the PSA, call it the HART, and you can drill it with the CG in the grip center every time while still putting the true PSA out towards the VAL.

SH

BallsDeep · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2007, 10:15:33 AM »

Thats what I've heard concerning the psa, that the hart is 90 degrees from the psa, and thus euidistant from, and on the same plane as, the two points where the psa meets the core. Yet I have heard that the mb and the psa are two different things. Does this have to do with what type of asymetry a ball has?

I don't know a great deal about core physics, but it would seem to me that if you took a core like the vanguard, it is easy to see where mass is biased away from the core. We could drill this ball with a simple 4 x 4 layour. However if we consider the mb an axis that runs through the ball, and use the other point at which this axis reaches the cover, as the mb, one would get a radically different reaction with the same drill but using this point instead. Balls like the zone asymetric series that appear to have a mb at each extended point of the ellipse, use the term psa rather than mb, is the hart also a two plane asymetric, not a three plane? Does what I said make sense?
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shelley · « **Reply #7 on:** January 10, 2007, 10:28:27 AM »

quote:
where the psa meets the core.

Not "core" but "surface".

quote:
Yet I have heard that the mb and the psa are two different things. Does this have to do with what type of asymetry a ball has?

The actual mass bias, where there's more mass on one side than the other, doesn't have to be where the PSA is. On some balls, it is, and on some it isn't. I believe the PSA is the one that's marked, whether it's called the MB or PSA or whatever. On the No Mercy, the MB is marked because the CG is on the pin-MB line, not the pin-PSA line and they want you to put the CG in the grip.

"Mass bias" and "preferred spin axis" are used almost interchangeably, but they really aren't the same. In many cases, they're at the same spot, but in others they're not. If you read the deTerminator manual (which I can't find on the Mo website right now), it talks about balls that are y-spinning and balls that are z-spinning, which I believe is related to whether the MB and PSA are the same spot.

SH

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2007, 10:39:28 AM »

I do not know for sure!

But I think the explanation is in this link I am giving you.

Visionary pioneered the concept.

Instead of placing a denser portion offset in the direction of the mass bias.

I believe Visionary said...hey...we will place a lighter portion(or less dense material on the opposite side to create mass bias on the opposite side).

Thus one can drill the ball and not take out mass bias!

I believe this is the explanation and this link MAY explain it!

Visionary AMB mass bias concept

If I am wrong on the method...used to create this ...I apologize.

rEgards,

Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

anotherwindup · « **Reply #9 on:** January 10, 2007, 11:08:37 AM »

quote:
RotoRPS

You and Strapper_Squared are on the right track. The bowling ball has three axes. The X axis which runs through the pin. The Y axis which commonly runs through the MB/PSA and the Z axis which runs through the HART. The reason why this ball works for LH bowlers is very simple. An axis can be defined as a line that runs through an object in which the object rotates around. For example; the earth rotates about its axis. We refer to the ends of the Axis as the North Pole and the South Pole, but no matter what you call the ends of the axis you will be talking about the same axis. A bowling ball is no different. Whatever axis you want to talk about, there is two end points. Theoretically you could have two pins, two MB and two HARTS. Remember these markings are just marking the end of the axis or one pole of the axis. Theoretically if you the opposite pole of each axis you to lay the ball out you would have the exaxt same reaction.

If you want to find the two "poles" of the Y axis or MB points on a No Mercy, then follow these simple steps:
1. Draw a line from the pin to the HART
2. Draw a line perpendicular to the the line that you have just drawn that runs through the HART
3. Measure 6 3/4" left of the HART on this line and make a mark. Then measure 6 3/4" right of the HART on this line and make a mark.

What you have successfully done is found the to poles of the Y axis or the two spots that a MB could be marked. It doesn't matter what pole you use to lay-out the ball because it is the same axis.

I hope this makes sense, if not please let me know.

Jesse James
In the Zone Pro Shop
Powerhouse Training Clinics

This is spot on, from what I have been told.

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RyanRPS · « **Reply #10 on:** January 10, 2007, 11:21:36 AM »

Inthezone,

Ok I understand what you are trying to say, however, here are the 2 problems I have with this...

1 - if you put the heart on the track, the MB, measured as you said 6 3/4 from the hart, isn't in the strong position... so how is this the strongest position... without measuring, but using common sense, placing the MB 6 odd inches from your track puts it on your PAP or NAP depending which way you measure, which is pretty much the weakest position because it produces least overturning moment...

2 - why on earth do this?? to confuse everyone??

Also.. from my understanding... the MB isn't on both sides of the ball... its a heavy spot, so it is only at one place... its not right at the surface but the marking denotes at what angle to the core it is situated, so by using this position you can set it to whatever angle you wish relative to your spin axis to use its influence at whatever part of the lane you require.

Ryan

BallsDeep · « **Reply #11 on:** January 10, 2007, 12:10:56 PM »

quote:
quote:
where the psa meets the core.

Not "core" but "surface".

quote:
Yet I have heard that the mb and the psa are two different things. Does this have to do with what type of asymetry a ball has?

The actual mass bias, where there's more mass on one side than the other, doesn't have to be where the PSA is. On some balls, it is, and on some it isn't. I believe the PSA is the one that's marked, whether it's called the MB or PSA or whatever. On the No Mercy, the MB is marked because the CG is on the pin-MB line, not the pin-PSA line and they want you to put the CG in the grip.

"Mass bias" and "preferred spin axis" are used almost interchangeably, but they really aren't the same. In many cases, they're at the same spot, but in others they're not. If you read the deTerminator manual (which I can't find on the Mo website right now), it talks about balls that are y-spinning and balls that are z-spinning, which I believe is related to whether the MB and PSA are the same spot.

SH

I meant to say cover, but thanks for the clarification. I thought that the hart was neither the psa nor the mb, just a point 90 degrees from each point where the psa meets the cover.

The y spinning or z spinning aspect, I was under the impression, had to do with the strength of a ball's mass bias, in that symmetrical balls have a very small mass bias and are considered __ spinning, while asyms which have a greater mass bias are considered __ spinning.

Any angle that one looks at the vanguard there is asymetry both from top to bottom and left to right, thus I figured thats why its deemed a three plane asymetric. Yet the zone core is symmetrical from left to right when looking at it from the front with the pin up, and thus I figured that this was why it is considered a two plane. Thats also why I figured that the Vanguard may have a psa that is different from its mb.
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BallsDeep · « **Reply #12 on:** January 10, 2007, 12:19:18 PM »

quote:
Inthezone,

Ok I understand what you are trying to say, however, here are the 2 problems I have with this...

1 - if you put the heart on the track, the MB, measured as you said 6 3/4 from the hart, isn't in the strong position... so how is this the strongest position... without measuring, but using common sense, placing the MB 6 odd inches from your track puts it on your PAP or NAP depending which way you measure, which is pretty much the weakest position because it produces least overturning moment...

2 - why on earth do this?? to confuse everyone??

Also.. from my understanding... the MB isn't on both sides of the ball... its a heavy spot, so it is only at one place... its not right at the surface but the marking denotes at what angle to the core it is situated, so by using this position you can set it to whatever angle you wish relative to your spin axis to use its influence at whatever part of the lane you require.

Ryan

This thought crossed my mind too. Though the mb wouldn't be on your pap, it would have to be somewhere on, or very near to your val. Such a position usually promotes an even arcing reaction with moderate overall hook.
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Let me say something, let me say something...
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RyanRPS · « **Reply #13 on:** January 10, 2007, 12:44:04 PM »

Inthezone, perhaps you mean the MB is situated 3 3/8 in either direction from the HART (basicly like or corresponding to the corners of the cube core?), instead of 6 3/4, as this would almost certainly coincide with the leverage line, and hence cause the strongest reaction...

im now thinking, is there 2 MBs on this ball, caused by the points of the cube core? And the heart is the point in between them?

Ryan

KDawg77 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 10, 2007, 01:10:28 PM »

Jesse,

I think a main reason was they jumped on the R&D when the USBC attempted to push the "no weight hole and no further than 1" from CG" over a year ago. Hammer's thought was to keep the reactions, but incorporate the new rule. While the rule was tabled, Hammer did come up with a novel concept.
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Author Topic: No Mercy & HART core (Read 5170 times)

RyanRPS

No Mercy & HART core

Strapper_Squared

Re: No Mercy & HART core

RyanRPS

Re: No Mercy & HART core

Noy

Re: No Mercy & HART core

JMORRIS

Re: No Mercy & HART core

shelley

Re: No Mercy & HART core

BallsDeep

Re: No Mercy & HART core

shelley

Re: No Mercy & HART core

LuckyLefty

Re: No Mercy & HART core

anotherwindup

Re: No Mercy & HART core

RyanRPS

Re: No Mercy & HART core

BallsDeep

Re: No Mercy & HART core

BallsDeep

Re: No Mercy & HART core

RyanRPS

Re: No Mercy & HART core

KDawg77

Re: No Mercy & HART core